Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24459
Blown launch and crash into trees

David Stevens - 2012/01/12 12:50:37 UTC

Regarding the experience of the crew, they are H4 on the left and H5 on the right.

I tried to stop my run immediately after I started it because of the commotion. I didn't know what was up, and then it registered that it was just my wing up on the right but then I didn't know what the stop stop stop was about.

Too be honest, it was all so confusing and I got confused and incorrectly decided to abort. Then the glider got away from me, and I ended up in the trees. Learning how to abort is not something that you practice but it should be something you think through if you ever do need it - like not hooked in or damage to the glider.

- The time to abort a launch because of not being in is immediately after THE HOOK-IN CHECK (which you never do) - NOT a few steps into your launch run when it starts becoming apparent to you or somebody else that you have a serious problem.

- What critical damage to the glider or assembly issues do you think is gonna start becoming apparent to anyone a couple of steps into a launch run that won't be blindingly obvious to you or anyone else moving the glider into or at launch position?

The dialog in the beginning was with a new 2-high-flight H2 you can't see who was behind the glider. He never touched it. It's ironic though that he was talking about how important communication is in the launch process.

I think the lesson here is:

- Clear your wires, make sure it's your glider before you yell clear.
- And for wire crews, STFU when the pilot says clear and don't yell to him/her until they are established in flight.

I've been speaking with both wire guys - they are both mentors to me and my friends - and we'll be putting an article in the mag about it to share the experience.

I really doubt it. You crashed into the trees and USHGA gliders never crash.

I've watched the video quite a bit, and sort of enjoy watching my crouching tiger hidden dragon walk through the trees, lucky as it was.

Anyway, thanks for all the comments, but I don't understand the "you have balls for sharing" comments. Pride is stupid, and as pilots, pride is our worst enemy. I think sharing this is part of my responsibilities as a pilot so we can all learn from each other's mistakes. This is probably the wrong forum for stating this but, ego's have no place in safe free flight flying.

That - like all the rest of them - is the wrong forum for stating much of anything. You're more than welcome to come to Kite Strings any time you want.

-
H3 FL ST FSL
WW Sport 2 155, Vision Mk IV 19, WW Falcon 1 195

Dave Holmgren - 2012/01/13 21:03:45 UTC
Point of the Mountain

GLAD you're OK, and man, I feel bad for the glider (and repair costs), but at least you walked away.

Walking away was what put him into the trees to begin with.

Since we're all putting our two cents in, I'll play...

We all see different things when we view a video like this and then filter it through the lens of our own personal experiences. Here's mine: FIRST, I totally agree with John Caldwell - you have handled the pubic humiliation session here with grace and composure. Again and again, you've properly accepted responsibility for the situation and outcome.

A lot of valid (and the expected off kilter) comments made, and I don't know you, your experience, the site, conditions that day, or the two guys 'helping' on your side wires. But I wish we'd been able to hear what they had to say about it. H-4 and H-5, eh? From my chair, it seems like the guy on your right side wires really wanted to fly your glider for you.

If he HAD actually partially flown the glider for him for a couple of steps instead of yelling the wrong thing the day would've gone a lot better.

I saw him holding the wing down with more force than I would have expected to given the 10-ish mph winds you describe, ESPECIALLY since you were holding the base tube on the ground most of the time prelaunch.

- He's not holding the basetube on the ground. The glider's floating and touching down on a corner periodically.
- What's it matter how much somebody is or isn't holding on a wire when the pilot is squatting down under the wing?

The early part of your launch (when the wind you mentioned from your right lifted that right wing again) looked a bit iffy, not unsalvageable - no ding, we all do that time to time. Then when the wire guys guys noticed that, THAT'S when they really should have just - as another poster put it - STFU - and let you handle it yourself. It would throw me off to hear those VERY energetic (and contrasting) comments at exactly the point when I was trying to figure out how to fix the situation I had put myself in.

It would throw ANYBODY off.

They - neither one of them - did anything other than make a precarious situation worse for you.

My takeaways? As you stated, maybe use just one wire guy vice two. I THINK (there I go again, not knowing the site or situation except from your video) given your description of the wind that day -I'd have not used any wire crew there at all, or at most only one guy on the nose wires.

I don't have much use for guys on the nose once I'm settled down at launch. I've GOT the leverage to trim the nose where I want it. I DON'T always have the leverage to keep the roll situation under control - in fact, NOBODY does - and I don't like wearing myself out getting or keeping things level.

And I get real irritated when a wing goes up ten degrees and the idiot on it does nothing to get it back down 'cause he wants me to FEEL the glider. (Yeah, I know the fuckin' wing just got blasted up ten degrees. Would it be too goddam much trouble to help me get it back under control?)

Dense Pages (Dennis Pagen) suggests not just standing there in challenging conditions - to launch as soon as you're ready to launch. You did that, but because the right wire guy had been holding downforce on his side, you didn't have a great feel for the true force on your glider - he had masked them.

- Those were not anything remotely resembling challenging conditions.

- No, he didn't do that. He launched WAY before he - and his crew - were ready. He didn't check that the glider was trimmed and he didn't verify that he was hooked in.

And then, finally, and you alluded to this also, a good clean BRIEFING to whatever wire guy/s you decide to use - detailing your expectations - could have proven critical. I don't care if it's Paul Voight or Steve Pearson or Dennis Pagen (just thinking of the three most authoritative / experienced guys I can pull out of my cranium on short notice...). Once I yell clear, I don't want to hear anything from them except CLEAR (OK, or YOU'RE UNHOOKED, but you already did a hang check and a shrug check, right...?)

- What's a hang check gotta do with the issue of being hooked in at launch?
- What's a shrug check? If it's what I think it is it shouldn't be way the hell down in this part of the post (in parentheses).

I think your right side wire guy proved - it's not always a benefit to have a super experienced guy hanging on to your glider when you're the one - not him - who's going to fly it.

Super experienced doesn't always translate as super competent. Shoot both of your wires, rewind the tape, stick a ten year old kid who's never seen a glider before on either wire, tell him NOTHING beyond keep the glider level, there won't be a problem.

Not trying to ignore or gloss over the other parts of the equation (new balaclava, sounds, temperature, pulling in more for better roll control - yada yada), but those are the most important things I saw that might have changed the outcome.

Thanks for sharing! I learned from your experience, and that's probably the best thing you can get out of this now - that others may be able to avoid a similar experience.

Cheers!

It never hurts to do a real quick left/right look-see to check wire deflection to verify that your guys are neutral or holding balanced pressure just before you clear them.

fly,surf,&ski - 2012/01/14 04:03:43 UTC
Torrey Pines

One more thing for newer pilots: If right before you launch you pick the glider up high enough that your harness lines go tight, well that is the very last check that you are indeed hooked in.

- Right. The Fours and Fives all do this religiously and thus never launch unhooked.
- And they always look for it when they're helping the newer pilots - like Dave here - so they don't launch unhooked either.
- That's the ONLY goddam check that you are indeed - or might be - hooked in. And never think for a nanosecond otherwise.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24459
Blown launch and crash into trees

Carm Moreno - 2012/01/14 15:06:33 UTC
Bay Area


How many of you went back and looked at the his other videos?

I did after you mentioned it:

http://vimeo.com/user5017968/videos

Launches are good.

Good thing he was hooked in on all of them, huh Carm?

Two wirepersons IMHO

Yeah. Absolutely insane. If he had only had the Hang Five from his right wing he'd have been fine launching without trimming his glider and listening to the guy yell "No, wait, stop!"

He already said - HE ABORTED THE LAUNCH. He should not.

Yeah, there's not a whole lot of disagreement on that point.

There are lessons here but degrading the pilot is NOT one.

Who's degrading the pilot?

Your wireguys are there to watch the glider incase it does any tricks NOT to control the glider.

I've been on plenty of launches - as pilot and crew - on which one somebody's gonna die if the wireguys aren't controlling the glider. I want my guys fully controlling the glider at all times until I'm about ready to launch - and giving me all the help they can when I am.

More than one video I saw the wireperson had closed hands some two. with a little twang.

Is that:
- an inevitable consequence of having people on:
-- wires?
-- wires with closed hands?
- a BFD?

That is just not good.

Why? 'Cause people can't figure out how to let go of a wire when a glider starts moving? Or follow directions to do so before the glider starts moving?

I can't remember ever launching a trainer or somebody off a ramp when I WASN'T grasping a wire and I don't remember that ever causing the least problem.

You really do need to go back and look at that. Make a change.

Shoot the left wire and rewind the tape. Put the Hang Five on the upwind wing with his hand flat and palm down on the wire. How much better is the day likely to go?

Communication is the key. Controlling your own glider and if you do have wiresperson then make sure they know what you want.

- If you have A wirePERSON you don't tell THEM what you want.
- Ferchrisake how much variation from glider to glider is there that requires all these personalized stamps?
- There was no problem with this wireperson in this launch until after he had ceased being a wireperson.

Let me pick it up you open hands open out. BUT do not touch my F*&ck'n glider unless i really need it.

Fine.

Good luck!!
Thanks for sharing!
Oh yes carry on boys.

- Are we having bigger problems because of clueless wire people keeping gliders level with their hands closed on the sidewires or people parking under their gliders at launch for 83 seconds then running off under the assumption that they're hooked in?

- Does it bother you the slightest bit that - deep in Pagen country - that's what this guy is doing with Hang Fours and Fives looking on as if everything's perfectly OK?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24459
Blown launch and crash into trees

Dave Hopkins - 2012/01/14 18:01:15 UTC

It's true, we the pilots are 100 percent responsible for the launch. Choosing and communicating with wire assistance is an important part of the launch.

That was a slot launch. It was a turbulent strong day. I have learned there are conditions that make slot launches unsafe. Which means we look at it and say "No way!" It will bite you sooner or later so wait for the perfect cycle or for conditions to mellow. I've had too many close calls in slot launches to push my luck. And I do a lot of slot launching here in the NE.

Wire guys! If you are helping your assistance may be needed beyond just letting go of the poor pilot at the mercy of turbulent crap in a slot. Be ready to run with him a few steps to keep the wings level until he she gets it loaded.

I know many are going to yell, "Don't touch my glider!" I want it to be all my glider before I launch, but shit will happen in those few steps before we get the wings loaded. That is often where the bad starts.

We are all pilots. We should know how to help each other. Have you ever run with a student on the training hill? Do you know how help keep a wing level during the first few steps? Do you know how to work as a team? Running with the glider watching the other wire guy? Holding back or pushing forward and up to help the pilot stay in control? It's not that difficult. If the right wire guy had held that wing down and run a few steps instead of letting and yelling stop the launch would likely have been smooth.

When I'm on the wire I know the decision to take the first step is a big commitment. I know a bad piece of air may hit at any time. Sometimes pilots go prematurely. If I am on your wing I am going to follow you, loose on the wire a few steps to give aid if needed. You won't even know I'm there. This is not too much to ask of our flying buddies.

Maybe this is an advanced skill in wire help but it's worth learning. It's good to have it in your head. It's another skill that helps us keep each other safe. So practice it in mellow conditions so we will have faith in our helpers when it gets rougher. Wire assistance means really having our head in the game. Hopefully everyone will when we are in the pilot's seat.

I said it first!!!

This ain't rocket science. This is classic ten year old kid with a kite common sense stuff and there isn't a ten year old kite flying kid with an ounce or two of common sense who couldn't handle this mission.

Tad,

That - like all the rest of them - is the wrong forum for stating much of anything. You're more than welcome to come to Kite Strings any time you want.

You included the above within a quote from David. I think you intended it to be outside the quote since David didn't say it (kinda freaked me out first time I read it. =) ).

Zack

Oops. Thanks. Fixed.

You sure? You still have quote tags around it...aren't you the one saying it?

Zack

Sorry, shouldn't have too much wine at dinner, watch Betty White, and try to do stuff.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24633
FTHI

Newton - 2012/01/29 05:38:03 UTC

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/FTHI.pdf

Dennis Wood - 2012/01/29 05:39:58 UTC
Virginia

damn, is it that time again???

No, of course not. The time to discuss failure to hook in issues is right AFTER somebody gets killed.

couldn't we instead discuss the merits of wheels on the chin guards of our helmets?

Yes.

Newton - 2012/01/29 06:03:26 UTC

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.

Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
02. Rating Requirements
03. Witnessed Tasks for Launch Skill Requirement - Foot Launch

04. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H-1)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
03. With each flight, demonstrate method(s) of establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
-C. Tandem
01. With each flight demonstrate method(s) of preflighting glider and harness and establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

05. Novice Hang Gliding Rating (H-2)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-c. With each flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

06. Intermediate Hang Gliding Rating (H-3)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-e. With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

07. Advanced Hang Gliding Rating (H-4)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-d. With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Jim Gaar - 2012/01/29 06:05:55 UTC

Shall we just vote to bury now and get it over with?

- So you still think that a vote on The Jack Show has any bearing whatsoever on what Jack actually does. How charmingly naive!
- Yes.

Newton - 2012/01/29 06:40:34 UTC

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.

My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time.

Newton - 2012/01/29 07:07:31 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Newton - 2012/01/29 07:33:58 UTC

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2008/09/hang_glider_pilot_who_forgot_t.php

Paul Hurless - 2012/01/29 07:38:25 UTC
Reno

Looks like Tad is back.

Why would Tad possibly wanna waste any more time trying to get through to anyone in THAT shithead colony? I just want you guys for idiot quotes and statistics.

Newton - 2012/01/29 08:42:48 UTC

Incorrect assumption.

Paul Hurless - 2012/01/29 17:07:13 UTC

Yes, on your part. I said "looks like" which of course is not the same as saying "Look, Tad is back". Who are you, then?

How 'bout first we first start worrying about who peanuts is? All I know to date is that his first name is Dennis and he goes back to the Seventies. Well, I also know that he's a major asshole - but in hang gliding that narrows the search down about as much as knowing that a particular Adelie Penguin is black and white.

FlyMyU2 (Richard Bryant) - 2012/01/29 17:32:24 UTC
New Egypt, New Jersey

Speaking of anonymous major assholes... Hi FlyMyU2 - AKA tipvortex, FutzAndTinker. How's tricks?

Who else would post like Tad. He has a style like none other.

He's only written two original words:

Incorrect assumption.

Everything else is copied and pasted.
That's not much to go on. Besides, I'da probably said something more along the lines of "Go fuck yourself."

**BURY**

Go fuck yourself.
---
Edit: 2012/12/04 - I've identified "peanuts" as:

Walter (Dennis) Wood
Suffolk, Virginia
USHPA #: 19404

Search Results -- 26 members found, display limited to 25 members

85258 - Dennis Boic
Pilot
H1 - 2011/08/28 - James Tibbs
FL
P2 - 2007/03/14 - Nik Peterson
FL ST FSL RLF RS TUR
PilotConnect
2012/04/30

35403 - Dennis Bowman
Pilot
H4 - 1984/07/23 - B. Piper
AT AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR
2012/12/31

20732 - Dennis Cavagnaro
Pilot
H5 - 1993/10/03 - Randy Adams
AT FL PL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR X-C
2012/08/31

60772 - Dennis Clark
Pilot
H4 - 2000/09/17 - Christian Thoreson
AT FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
PilotConnect
2012/07/31

73262 - Dennis Creamer
Pilot
P1 - 1999/08/03 - Marty DeVietti
FL
2012/08/31

47347 - Dennis Dix
Pilot
H2 - 1989/06/01 - D. Curry
AT 360
2012/04/30

67179 - Dennis Dornfest
Pilot
H3 - 2000/01/07 - Steve Burns
AT FL
Tug Pilot
PilotConnect
2012/02/29

43750 - Dennis Harris
Pilot
H4 - 1992/04/15 - Patrick Denevan
AT FL PL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR X-C
PilotConnect
2012/04/30

25172 - Dennis Hazen
Lifetime
H3 - 1980/04/06 - J. Nelson
TUR
2099/12/31

71536 - Dennis Heider
Pilot
P2 - 1998/08/27 - William Laurence
FL
PilotConnect
2012/09/30

81464 - Dennis Hemminger
Pilot
H3 - 2005/02/19 - Larry Jorgensen
AT FL FSL TUR
PilotConnect
2012/03/31

75119 - Dennis Hepting
Pilot
H2 - 2003/06/15 - Rusty Whitley
FL
2012/07/31

82586 - Dennis Hughes
Pilot
P3 - 2007/03/28 - David (Dexter) Binder
FL FSL RS
PilotConnect
2012/04/30

75396 - Dennis Johnson
Pilot
H4 - 2007/05/01 - Andrew Beem
AT FL TFL TUR
PilotConnect
2012/06/30

82683 - Dennis Joyce
Pilot
P3 - 2010/08/09 - Gregory Kelley
FL 360 FSL HA RLF RS TUR
PilotConnect
2012/09/30

82799 - Dennis Lepak
Pilot
P2 - 2004/09/20 - Douglas Stroop
FL
2012/10/31

80696 - Dennis McDonald
Pilot
P4 - 2009/07/22 - Ken Hudonjorgensen
FL ST T-1 CL FSL HA RLF RS TUR X-C
2012/05/31

38628 - Dennis Monteiro
Pilot
H4 - 1995/04/10 - Jeff Harper
AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR
PilotConnect
2012/08/31

59073 - Dennis Nowak
Pilot
P3 - 1997/05/07 - Wayne Bergman
FL CL HA RS TUR
2012/06/30

69253 - Dennis Olcott
Pilot
P2 - 2011/08/06 - Granger Banks
FL
2012/08/31

11148 - Dennis Pagen
Lifetime
H5 - 1980/03/08 - L. King
AT FL PA AWCL CL TUR X-C
2099/12/31

50032 - Dennis Rentschler
Pilot
H3 - 1990/05/12 - Robert Hastings
AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR
2012/10/31

74004 - Dennis Servetter
Pilot
P4 - 2004/03/21 - Kyoung Ki Hong
FL ST CL FSL HA RS TUR
PilotConnect
2012/12/31

52148 - Dennis Stallings
Pilot
H4 - 1993/02/18 - Mike Lake
FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR X-C
P3 - 2008/05/21 - Ray Leonard
FL CL FSL HA RLF RS TUR X-C
2013/03/31

88806 - Dennis Wills
Pilot
P2 - 2010/10/31 - Scott Gee
FL 360 FSL
PilotConnect
2013/01/31

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24633
FTHI

Dan Harding - 2012/01/29 19:36:45 UTC
Burlington, Washington

I'm sorry, but who in the Hell is Tad?????

And, in predictable and true Jack and Bob Shows fashion... To The Basement. Undoubtedly 'cause under the Jack Show "rules" it got "enough votes" to bury it. And, of course, on The Jack Show there's not even a pretense of a mechanism to neutralize a bury vote with anything positive.

Paul Hurless - 2012/01/30 00:52:53 UTC

Tad is a rude...

Yeah, when your dealing with Jack Show assholes - of whom you're emblematic - ya might as well be. Anything less is a misdirected waste of time.

...know-it-all...

Guilty. But in this idiot sport there's really not all that much of any importance that one can't pick up in an hour or two.

...who freely over-expressed his opinions...

Those weren't opinions, shithead. But you'd have had to have made it all the way through the fifth grade on merit to understand that.

...and called anyone who didn't agree with them stupid or worse.

And I was wrong WHEN, Stupid and Worse?

He went on and on about how his way was the only way and everyone else is an idiot.

Funny, I don't hear you saying I was wrong about anything. And on this particular issue, as "Newton" has pointed out, I'm totally lined up with Rob Kells - but none of you cowardly shits has the balls to go after him while you're going after me. And, once again, I don't hear you or anyone else hear addressing or putting a dent in the logic.

I don't believe that he is welcome here any more.

You don't BELIEVE?

Paul Hurless - 2009/11/12 15:52:47 UTC

Great job, SG. You gave him plenty of warning that he chose to ignore.

Fuck you, Paul.

SG can be more enlightening about that.

Jack couldn't be enlightening to anybody with an IQ anywhere over the low double digits with a gun to his head. Anyone who HAS an IQ anywhere over the low double digits is a threat to him. That's how come people like me get banned and assholes like you get cultivated.

Fun Facts...

At the time of this submission this Jack Show Basement thread after about a day and a third has thirteen posts and 344 hits while the Davis Show Page One thread on the aerotow bridle/release system after about five days has seven posts and only eight more hits.