Kite Strings

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63641
VG Setting on Aerotowing

Davis Straub - 2020/09/25 23:49:33 UTC

One half VG

Oliver Moffatt - 2020/09/24 14:29:29 UTC

Excellent and experienced aerotow pilots I have spoken to, including multiple British champions and the UK Moyes importer, tell me that 1/3 to 1/2 VG is essential for a normal-weight pilot on an RX, with more VG possibly required for a pilot lighter in the weight range. I am light on this glider and I typically use just over 1/2 VG, which works very well.

Steve Pearson - 2020/09/24 22:19:57 UTC

1/2 VG is recommended for aerotowing all Wills Wing gliders configured with VG systems. Towing at less that 50% VG is more difficult because the pitch pressure can be excessively high and that in turn contributes to PIO.

Mick - 2020/10/01 15:54:02 UTC

VG Setting for Launching Hang Gliders

The VG setting on hang gliders for launching by aerotow, stationary winch, payout winch, static tow or foot launch mountain/hill should be the setting that provides the most control for maneuvering the glider close to the ground and landing. In other words the appropriate VG setting should be the setting you have found optimum for setting up an approach and landing.

Having a weak link break or other tow mechanism failure at the pilot end or tow plane or some where in between should be expected whenever we tow. A bridle issue or the tow line releasing or breaking for any reason is always a possibility so the pilot should be ready and able to set up their approach and land safely at any point the tow force is lost. Having maximum control authority is also paramount when a wing is lifted or the glider is gets turned close to the ground. A lifted wing during a tow launch on glider that is stiff due to a tight VG setting is less responsive to corrections and is more likely to quickly progress to a lockout than a glider that has the optimum VG setting for best control.

Launching at a hill or mountain site the pilot needs to set the VG at the optimum setting for maximum control. This is to provide the best chance to control and recover from adverse situations such a wing lifted or glider getting turned on launch close to terrain.

There's a notion that some pilots need half VG for aerotowing to stiffen the glider to reduce PIO's (pilot induced oscillations), but that's a separate training issue. Reducing pitch pressure is another reason pilots tend to fly with a tighter VG setting especially when flying behind faster tugs. Again that is a separate issue that can be corrected by improving body position and harness angle of attack, bridle position etc.

Having flown various gliders I have found that the VG setting for maximum control and optimum flare window for my weight etc.. on T2Cs is about Quarter and about a third VG for the Lightspeeds. Less than this the glider feels heavy and sluggish in handling, and more VG makes the glider stiffer and narrows the flair window. I find less VG, even zero VG is better on King Post gliders. However the VG setting is personal preference as there are several factors that affect the way the glider response feels, so my preference may be different to others. However, and I am repeating myself for the sake of safety:

The optimum VG setting should provide the most glider control for maneuvering close to the ground, and the setting that provides the best feel and flare timing for landing.

Mick

Who the fuck are you? How come you don't have a last name, posting history, indication of any qualifications whatsoever?

VG Setting for Launching Hang Gliders

Guess we're good to skip over any tedious crap about trim point, bar position.

The VG setting on hang gliders for launching by aerotow, stationary winch, payout winch, static tow or foot launch mountain/hill should be the setting that provides the most control for maneuvering the glider close to the ground and landing. In other words...

...opinion based.

...the appropriate VG setting...

...is a lot like appropriate weak link strength.

...should be the setting you have found optimum for setting up an approach and landing.

Oh great. We're all qualified to set our VG cords the precise setting - plus or minus five millimeters - for setting up our approaches and landings. Also when and where to place our hands on the control tubes for optimal pitch and roll control and flare authority. And these will differ from one individual to another - there are no hard and fast rules for the pilot community at large. If you're not having any problems at 0.33 then you're probably in a pretty good ballpark. But if you get killed 0.33 was obviously wrong. Probably should've gone with 0.25 or 0.50. But at this point we'll have no real way of finding out what it should've been.

Having a weak link break or other tow mechanism failure...

I'm sorry... A weak link break is not a tow mechanism FAILURE. A weak link break is a tow mechanism SUCCESS. It's when it DOESN'T break that it's a failure - a near certain fatal one.

...at the pilot end or tow plane or some where in between should be expected whenever we tow.

That's why I don't tow. The fuckin' assholes in charge of the crap from the tow ring forward were deliberately installing components that they expected to fail. And the most lethal of these components:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

And anybody stupid enough to hook to anything expected to fail while the tow is under control deserves whatever happens to him. This is how we rid the human gene pool of malignant crud.

A bridle issue or the tow line releasing or breaking for any reason is always a possibility so the pilot should be ready and able to set up their approach and land safely at any point the tow force is lost.

The way Zack Marzec was. And let's hand it too him. He DID manage to land with the glider right-side up and the damage to it was pretty minimal...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...given the circumstances.

Having maximum control authority is also paramount when a wing is lifted or the glider is gets turned close to the ground.

- Nice job proofreading. I can see you really put a lot of thought and effort into this seminal essay.

Yeah, I screw up like that all the time. But I:
- write a lot more than you do
- have a couple guys who give enough of a shit to check and help me get things right

And the Davis Show is supposed to be this huge global resource with tons of interest and participants and Kite Strings is supposed to be Tad's Hole In The Ground. Quantity versus quality apparently.

(Also from Steve Pearson we have:

Towing at less that 50% VG is more difficult...

also uncorrected. (But if we we're gonna start worrying about getting things correct the whole post would've been flushed down the toilet.))

- Yep...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2lk6hbjuJ-c/Ujh-ENPLQrI/AAAAAAAA3IQ/vh46chqQX4M/s1600/JRS_0542.JPG


Hard to imagine having more maximum control authority than that.

A lifted wing during a tow launch on glider that is stiff due to a tight VG setting is less responsive to corrections...

If they're CORRECTIONS the glider CAN'T be LESS RESPONSIVE to them. If something's a CORRECTION it WORKED.

...and is more likely to quickly progress to a lockout...

Not much of a correction then, was it?

...than a glider that has the optimum VG setting for best control.

If only we had known. Just think of all the lives that have been lost needlessly during tow launches 'cause their VGs were too tight. (Note that in the u$hPa "reports" Zack Marzec's VG was "on" and there was zero mention for Jeff Bohl. (And both gliders survived in pretty good shape.))

Launching at a hill or mountain site the pilot needs to set the VG at the optimum setting for maximum control.

- Bullshit. Gliders of all flavors from baggy Falcons to full VG T2Cs and Atosses can and do launch safely over pretty much the same range of mountain launch conditions. The limiting factor is gonna be penetration capability - not turbulence. If there's gonna be a critical difference between zero and full VG for any glider then no glider should be launching.

- What the fuck is "maximum control"? When we're thermalling in choppy stuff we go full off 'cause that allows max roll control authority at slow speed. When we're cruising to the next thermal we go full on 'cause we're doing fairly high speed through smooth air, aren't worried about roll response, are trying to max out glide. Max control setting varies with what we're trying to do, it's always a trade-off, and air isn't always predictable so frequently we only know what the max control setting was retrospectively.

This is to provide the best chance to control and recover from adverse situations such a wing lifted or glider getting turned on launch close to terrain.

- What kind of tug are we flying behind and how much power and speed is it flying? Dragonflies can slow down pretty good but during the critical period they wanna be flying fast and we want them to be flying fast. And regardless of what we're doing during launch if we get dust devilled all bets are off - the outcome isn't predictable and we're in luck mode.

- We don't AT launch over "TERRAIN". We AT launch on/from RUNWAYS. We slope launch from TERRAIN and we don't get into adverse situations such a wing lifted or the glider getting turned on launch in which we need a best CHANCE to control and recover from adverse situations such a wing lifted or a glider getting turned on launch close to terrain (without a wing getting lifted). We don't do or talk about luck mode. We leave those discussions to seasoned experts on Russian roulette.

- Here's Davis:

14-0614 - 18-0801


23-1020 - 24-1117

getting both his wing lifted and his glider turned on launch close to terrain due to severe turbulence. Sure is a good thing his VG setting was optimized for max roll control authority. Also a great pity that he's never told us what it was so we muppets would have better ideas where we should be setting our VGs.

There's a notion that some pilots need half VG for aerotowing to stiffen the glider to reduce PIO's (pilot induced oscillations), but that's a separate training issue.

Oh really? Like in the previous post in which Davis quotes Steve Pearson as stating:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63574
VG Undone

Steve Pearson - 2020/09/24 22:19:57 UTC

1/2 VG is recommended for aerotowing all Wills Wing gliders configured with VG systems. Towing at less that 50% VG is more difficult because the pitch pressure can be excessively high and that in turn contributes to PIO.

But that's just a "NOTION" from the designer of some of the hottest gliders on the planet over most of the sport's history. Well at least he's using his full name and we know who he is - MICK (on his only known post on anything anywhere).

Reducing pitch pressure is another reason pilots tend to fly with a tighter VG setting especially when flying behind faster tugs.

- Minus a two point bridle to reduce pitch pressure down to zero for whatever VG setting one feels like.
- So I guess it's not worth discussing aerotowing gliders without VG.

Again that is a separate issue that can be corrected by improving body position and harness angle of attack, bridle position etc.

- Bridle POSITION? Is there some way I don't know about to POSITION the bridle somewhere other that between the towline and its downwind connection points? And the only points being recognized in this discussion are the pro toad's shoulders.

- Well, your ass should be pretty close to empty now. Maybe we should think about wrapping this one up.

Having flown various gliders I have found that the VG setting for maximum control and optimum flare window for my weight etc.. on T2Cs is about Quarter and about a third VG for the Lightspeeds.

- Well, that should pretty much settle everything for us then.

- They don't call them "Lightspeeds". The glider's a Litespeed.

- There's no such thing as a flare window in actual soaring conditions air. See Steve Pearson's Davis Show comment...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...on that issue.

Less than this the glider feels heavy and sluggish in handling...

Install water ballast in your wing. Then you can pull a cord and make it feel less heavy and sluggish in handling. Problem solved.

...and more VG makes the glider stiffer and narrows the flair window.

- Got "flare" spelled both ways in the space of two sentences. Your ass is totally covered. (Might wanna alternate between towline tension and pressure every now and then for the same reason.)

- And when you're launching AT it's critically important to have as wide a flair window as possible - 'specially when you're using an appropriate weak link.

22-0821

I find less VG, even zero VG is better on King Post gliders. However the VG setting is personal preference as there are several factors that affect the way the glider response feels, so my preference may be different to others. However, and I am repeating myself for the sake of safety:

Keep up the great work. I don't know how more than forty percent of us ever managed to survive in the absence of this wisdom up to this point. (Hey Steve... Hope you're paying attention to all these insightful comments. Your owners' manuals could all benefit from updates. No wait... You don't design your gliders to be to be motorized, tethered, or towed. So it's above and beyond the call of duty for you to come out on The Davis Show and tell us how to safely aerotow your gliders. So no need to respond to anything the Mick the Great is telling us.

The optimum VG setting should provide the most glider control for maneuvering close to the ground, and the setting that provides the best feel and flare timing for landing.

- We don't MANEUVER close to the ground for an AT - or any other flavor of tow - launch. The whole idea is for both planes to avoid maneuvering like the fuckin' plague until after we're up clear of the kill zone. Pretty much ditto for any mountain launch you can name.

This:

http://ozreport.com/9.008
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/10

As he took off his left wing was dragging. Bobby Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business, moved to the right into get further into the wind, and Rob got his left wing up and flying as he lined up behind Bobby.
Then Robin shifted off to the left again getting his right, upwind wing, high again. He was seen reaching for his release. I understand that Bobby also released him.
He kept doing a wing over to the left and dove straight into the ground from about 50 feet. He was killed immediately.

is the only instance coming to mind of maneuvering going during an AT launch attempt. Didn't end well for the glider.

- Fuck anybody who talks about flare timing. Mitch Shipley used to be Quest's foremost authority on flare timing. And when was the last time we heard from or anything about him?

http://ozreport.com/23.198
Mitch Shipley

A year ago today.

This is textbook u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia. Pretentious pseudo-intellectual drivel - Pagen, Davis, Rooney, Ryan, Trisa... From now until the end of time all AT lockout fatals will be the consequences of inappropriate VG settings.

Dennis almost kills himself going pro toad at Big Spring 2004/08/01-07 and the first response is to question whether or not we should be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing. Half an hour later Davis bans two point bridles from US and Australia comps as inappropriate. Anybody who thinks that eliminating the keel connection leaves one's control bar trim back at one's knees has an incorrect understanding of the issue.

Post Lehmann/Marzec we no longer had to play by the same AT weak link rule. We got to chose the one - 140 or 200 - that made us most happy. Now if you lock out and die on an AT launch it will have had nothing to do with the weak link 'cause the sole function of the weak link is...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...to make you as happy as possible - and that's no way in hell a relevant issue in a fatality report so it would be a total waste of print to identify its rating.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Sorry Jim... We don't talk about tow equipment, weak link ratings, you anymore. All totally irrelevant.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC

Nice Reference Citation

Ridgerodent:
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release."- Richard Johnson

Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?

We've finally realized nearly four decades post Hewett that it's all about VG setting. Hell, they didn't even have VG back then. It's a miracle anyone survived through those years.

24 hours plus 39 seconds since this post and zero response from anyone anywhere. Screams volumes on the state of the sport.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/04 23:55:21 UTC

Great towing today - pro towing at Quest Air. A bunch of us here.

Pro tow is my preference. You can have your own.

Great towing today...

- Yeah Davis, people go to flight parks 'cause they love the TOWING so much. Like when people go to Woodstock it's 'cause they enjoy all the driving up the mountain, carrying in, setting up, shuttling vehicles, running down the slot parts.

And the best days are when there's just enough air trickling in to get safely airborne. That way you don't have to fight so much to get down to the LZ, execute your perfectly timed landing flare on the old Frisbee in the middle of the field, get back up and do it again.

- Great towing is another way of saying total shit soaring conditions. When these guys do their training they restrict their newish students to the great towing conditions of morning, evening, totally overcast sled.

- Anybody who isn't scared a fair bit shitless from the moment he starts rolling until after he clears the kill zone is a total moron - even if he ISN'T using Industry Standard equipment and flying behind some Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney caliber total douchebag. Ditto for mountain launching in good thermal soaring conditions.

- So you enjoyed the great towing today at Quest Air. So did you ask your tug pilot to ease up on the gas to extend the pleasure of being on tow, spiral back down to get in as many tows as possible, pay extra to go up to 10K? Do we prefer the 582 to the 914 'cause it takes longer to get to release altitude?

- Sounds a lot to me like you're making...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer and better than being off tow. So how come you never seem to call Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney on any of his bullshit?

- Somebody find me a quote from anyone anywhere talking about how much enjoyment he derives from being on either end of the rope. Wanna see what Bobby does for fun?

163-080213
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1815/42356856690_937fe58750_o.png

07-02504
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49811386057_70428599ab_o.png

19-22127
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49811084506_c484c1097d_o.png

327-155904
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1875/44117061412_f8b1b162df_o.png

280-142607
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1832/44165003831_3562f1fa36_o.png

283-144511
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1860/44165003121_f79ddcca14_o.png

...pro towing...

Yeah, hard to beat having to stuff the bar to your knees right after coming off the cart, hold it there for the duration of the tow, pray that you're not inconvenienced by the focal point of your safe towing system kicking in or your tug pilot fixing whatever's going on back there - with people who'd been involved in perfecting aerotowing for twenty years at the point they splattered Zack Marzec on the runway for reasons we'll never be able to understand.

...at Quest Air.

Yeah, people call it Quest AIR. Like they call Wallaby the Wallaby RANCH. If you just said "Quest" nobody would know what you were talking about. But if you say "Quest AIR"...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...then Google picks it up better and the commercial op with whom you maintain an incestuous financial relationship gets better advertising.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/08 20:32:45 UTC

You'll have to ask Malcolm to update his document. He knows better.

But you'll never say anything critical on any of the mountains of crap incessantly spewed by Quest AIR.

P.S. What's stopping YOU from asking Malcolm to update his document? And there are tons of people going through Wallaby TRUSTING...

01-0813
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/966/41460447564_ec1bb904de_o.png

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


...the crap he unrelentingly spews.

A bunch of us here.

- A bunch of Davisses there? I can hardly imagine what an awesome scene that would've been. So how many of us are still around? One of us Davisses was Zack Marzec who abruptly ceased enjoying great Quest Air pro towing 31 days ago. But it's really inspirational to hear how much a bunch of Davisses were enjoying the great Quest Air pro towing so soon in the aftermath. I so hope one day I too will master the art of not giving a flying fuck about the violent death of one of the bunch of us regularly enjoying the great pro towing at Quest Air.

- I guess a bunch of you THERE beats the hell outta a bunch of you HERE.

Pro tow is my preference.

- Oh good. Then you should probably mandate your preference as everybody else's preference.

- Your AT weak link preferences for a dozen years were a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot for flex and a double loop for rigid. Then immediately post Marzec you and a bunch of us abruptly became happy with a single loop of 200 for everything. Your preferences seem to be a bit fickle - in my humble opinion.

You can have your own.

- Unless we fly in one of your comps. Then we have to have YOUR own - the chintzy pro toad bent pin total crap you and a bunch of us sell.

- Aren't you gonna say anything about needing to be properly qualified to fly pro toad in a clinic run by a properly qualified u$hPa pro toad instructor? Wasn't that THE issue with the career ending Holly Korzilius crash at Blue Sky less than eight years ago? Wasn't she heavily criticized for violating proper protocol and just hopping on the cart and giving pro toad without being an actual pro? Isn't what you're doing - telling everyone this is just like a 140/200 pound weak link preference - a thousand times worse than what Holly did?

We're rotated ninety counterclockwise...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7400/26585605333_8144a67215_o.png


North is left. North up version:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7409/27095711272_ed1f31cf6f_o.png
And to make it easier to visualize left and right with respect to the direction of the tow... South up version:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/65535/50441378713_8061ccb5c2_o.png

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

He's in shock. He's not lying, obfuscating, partial truthing at this point. It "was a light and variable day" but "We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind." That's south at probably close to but not much over ten - twelve max. And the thermal hasn't started sucking the air into which Mark's rolling. Both planes are well and safely airborne before the shit starts hitting the fan.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft thermals that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.

The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot. The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard and Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all. A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

Another pilot had launched with no issues immediately before the accident. The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time. When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Yeah, now we're in a mine field of punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals - probably some dust devils - versus the big fat soft thermals that Florida is famous for. (So come on down and book some tows - our operators are standing by.) And there was a light southwest wind.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.

You landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in? Why not just say you landed with ninety cross to the west? As a matter o' fact, who the fuck cares about your landing? What does anything have to do with anything after you lost visual on Zack - after two rotations but just before impact?

If:
- you saw two rotations you saw the impact. You just don't wanna remember it 'cause you know you had a shitload of options to transform this one into a nonevent.
- it were:
-- a nice straight in south as you reported when you weren't dodging you'd have probably done a counterclockwise 270 and landed ninety cross to the west. The forecast was probably southwest so let's say definitely to the west.
-- southwest as in Paul's new and improved edition you'd have launched in a 45 right cross and definitely landed to the west in a 45 left cross.

I never paid too much attention to this bullshit 'cause prior to my 2020/09/27 12:28:35 UTC I didn't think it mattered. Now I'm thinking it does. I'm thinking that given the unabridged version...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

...everybody realized in hindsight that that tow could've been survivable if you'd eased off on the gas and if we launched to the south into a nice straight in wind that would've been a lot more doable than in a light south west wind in the high pressure, dry air that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for.

And in the really refined and final edition...

http://www.ushpa.aero/safety.asp
USHPA - Safety Articles

Fatality Reports
2013/02/08 - Zack Marzec

Zack Marzec (27), an H-4 Pilot with Aero Tow and Tandem Aero Tow proficiency as well as Advanced Instructor and Tandem Instructor appointments, and a USHPA member since 2009, suffered fatal injuries when his glider tumbled during an aero tow launch. During the launch, at an altitude of 150 AGL, the pilot encountered an invisible bullet thermal which pitched the nose up, causing the weak link to break. Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice. The pilot and glider's leading edge hit the ground simultaneously. The pilot was utilizing his own pro-tow style tow harness, this own high performance glider with VG on, and was not wearing a full face helmet.

...zero mention of the ambient conditions at launch. But we DID get the really important stuff about the pilot and glider's leading edge hitting the ground simultaneously and the pilot not wearing a full face helmet. And we only have so much useable space on this web page.

Compare/Contrast the Holly Korzilius damage control effort in which she actually did come off with a reasonably full and speedy recovery. Holly was a non pro toad certified muppet under the supervision of Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt. Big problem. Zack was a Kool Kid pro toad tandem aerotow instructor. Sometimes shit just happens and there's not much we can really do about it.

The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot.

But we never say anything about what the highly experienced tow pilot of the Moyes Dragonfly with the 914 Rotax turbocharged engine was doing with the power. Works well with changing the wind direction and strength - don't it, Paul?

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.

And talking about power management wouldn't pertain to what you saw and experienced and suggesting that backing off on the power might have made the situation survivable would necessitate an engagement in speculation at this point, wouldn't it, Mark?

Yeah, the launch conditions WERE critical. That tumble COULD have been prevented if Mark had eased off on the gas. And people are monitoring what's going on over here. And in a world of legitimate aviation if what I were saying were off-base I'd be getting called on it.

From the video Zack posted on the last full day of his existence:

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These super cool Dragonfly dudes are buzzing around low, using trees as pylons, spinning, at cloundbase buzzing the gliders they’ve towed up. They HAVE the SKILL to employ options when something extreme starts kicking in low on tow. The just don't have the brains to prepare themselves to properly respond to precedented and well documented worst case scenarios. But of course pulling gliders pro toad with easily reachable releases and Davis Standard Pitch and Lockout Protectors they've already deliberately dialed in most of the elements of a worst case scenario. I guess the meanings of the words "what" and "if" were never properly drilled in during their formative years.

We'll also note that in the unauthorized first draft of this incident report Zack maxes out "at around 150 feet or so" before the safety of the towing operation is abruptly increased. In the new and improved editions Zack enters the thermal first at an estimated 100 to 150 feet and finally "at an altitude of 150 AGL" I guess they don't want you thinking too much about how low and early in the tow you can get hit. And the Pilot In Command let's this shit slide unabated - to this day. Ditto for the also conspicuously unidentified ground witnesses.

I guess one only gets a really clear and accurate recollection of what actually happened after sitting down with his attorney for several hours several days after the fact.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

The Oz Report - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

A tumble at very low altitude (Quest Air, Groveland, Florida, USA)

Paul Tjaden from Quest Air writes:

A few days ago I promised that I would write a more complete accident report regarding the tragic hang gliding accident we recently had at Quest Air resulting in the death of our good friend, Zach Marzec. I do want to warn you in advance that there will be no great revelations from what you already know. Many times Zach flew with a video camera which could have possibly told us more but on this occasion he did not.

The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.

Zach Marzec was an advanced rated pilot who was a tandem instructor for Kitty Hawk Kites where he logged a huge number of aerotow flights. He was current (flying every day) and was flying his personal glider that he was very familiar with and had towed many times. Sorry, I do not have specific numbers of hours or flights logged but experience does not appear to have been an issue.

The glider was a Moyes Xtralite. This glider was a fairly old design. I believe the last ones built were in the mid 1990's, but it was in good, airworthy condition and rigged properly. I know of no reports that this glider is difficult to tow or has any deficiencies for aero towing but I am not an expert on it and have never flown one. The glider hit base tube first and sustained very little damage upon impact so it was easy to ascertain that the glider did not appear to have had any structural failure that would have caused the accident.

The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot. The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard and Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all. A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

Another pilot had launched with no issues immediately before the accident. The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time. When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

A few days ago I promised that I would write a more complete accident report...

And a REALLY complete accident report isn't complete without the inclusion of several self-serving fabrications. So knock yourself out. Also... Have somebody else post this for you on the Jack and Davis Shows. That'll make in look like you're too tied up with really important stuff to engage any of us muppets who call you on any of this crap.

...regarding the tragic hang gliding accident we recently had at Quest Air...

- The tragic hang gliding accident WE recently had at Quest Air? How many of us suffered injuries - fatal or other?
- This wasn't a hang gliding accident. This was fringe activity dressed up and portrayed as hang gliding.

...resulting in the death of our good friend, Zach Marzec.

- OUR good friend? How many of your fellow Questies authorized you to speak on their behalf. He wasn't anybody's good friend down there - 'cept for Clara Moseley. We'd have heard some genuine outpourings if that were the case. He's our worst enemy right now. He's a major threat to the continued existence of Quest. Also a painful memory that a lot of you motherfuckers are gonna retain for the rest of your lives.

- He didn't die. He suffered fatal injuries - almost certainly as a consequence of not wearing a full face helmet.

- A good friend. But after five days you haven't bothered to do enough background to spell his name the way he does.

I do want to warn you in advance that...

...it's not a great idea to have the owners and operators of the flight park at which there was a fatal crash being the ones doing the investigation and reporting. But it's a self regulating sport so what are ya gonna do?

...there will be no great revelations...

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

...from what you already know.

We're gonna go way backwards from what we already know - asshole.

Many times Zach flew with a video camera which could have possibly told us more but on this occasion he did not.

- I can think of about one time when we got to see a video of a serious incident from a camera under the control of a commercial ride or operation.

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And the injuries were remarkably moderate given the situation and the operator was never publicly identified.

Well, there was Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's 2006/02/21 Coronet Peak tandem thrill ride unhooked launch but that didn't stick around long and nobody who matters has a copy.

- I'd kill for a video of Zack's but... Bullshit. There isn't a goddam thing of any real importance that would tell us anything of any real significance. Mark stupidly blurted out the truth almost immediately and what he said totally added up. And we have zillions of videos of dangerous and consequential Standard Aerotow Weak Link inconvenience stalls.

The weather conditions seemed quite benign.

We don't tow in quite benign weather conditions. We tow in dangerously unstable conditions. That's why Zack waited until mid afternoon to hook up. But just like on the mountain ramps we try to launch in benign and/or optimal cycles. So far, so good.

It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind.

Please explain why the guy who was 250 feet in front of the glider reported otherwise less than 24 hours after impact and has made no comment on this discrepancy. He says: "We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind."

And why isn't HE the one writing the fucking report?

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
`
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

You were THERE but you didn't see any more of this flight than the rest of us did. So how come he's not the one writing the report? He's too fuckin' stupid to know the difference between a nice straight-in south wind and a light southwest wind? If so then how come that's not in the report? Your buddy Jim Rooney - whom you once referred to as "Mister Know-It-All" - tells us that the 914 Dragonfly driver was the legal Pilot In Command of that one and that Zack was his passenger, with "the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver". Mark let him fall off the back end of his plane at "extremely low altitude", there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute." So is that something we need to be talking about? Or is Rooney partially or totally full o' shit? Any way you look at it this needs addressing.

It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for.

- Was it a high pressure day? High pressure we generally associate with stable conditions.

- Who gives a flying fuck? We didn't hear about any punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals or the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. We heard about a not unprecedented powerful monster thermal hitting the planes just off the deck. As a matter o' fact...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1725
Towing at Quest

Paul Tjaden - 2006/02/07 14:29:16 UTC

Sunday's weather was post frontal and most local forecasts were calling for strong winds but the FSL soundings showed very reasonable, even light winds below the inversion layer between 1:00 and 4:00. As the morning progressed, the winds dropped as the soundings had projected and we all set up to fly. Around 1:00, Bo Hagewood launched and everyone else headed to the East side of the field to tow up. Most of us were hanging out to see how well Bo would do when John made it to the launch area. He asked why we weren't launching and when he found out we were just waiting to check soaring conditions he said he was going up. That got us all in gear and Jamie Sheldon, Mark Fruitiger, myself and others headed to our gliders to hook in. I was doing this with my glider on the cart and tail to the wind when a HUGE cycle came through. The pine trees were whipping and my glider was trying to leap off the cart. After about a minute, the winds started to lighten but were still kicking where I was (about 40 yards down wind from John) when I heard the tugs engine wind up. My first thought was " No, wait a bit longer and let this thermal clear." (I later found out that conditions seemed much more benign where John was. ) I looked under my wing to watch the launch and was horrified to see John's wing turn violently left just a few feet off the cart. From my perspective it looked as though he would impact in a hard diving turn to the left and I was amazed to see that he was able to pull it together and make the turn downwind. He continued on around, just missing a tree, and managed to get the glider mostly back into the wind before the left tip dug in and brought him down to a hard landing.

Look at the cast of characters...Paul and Lauren, John Simon, Bob Lane probably, Mark Frutiger, Bo Hagewood, Jamie Sheldon, pro toad bridle, low level lockout, bent pin release, deck level monster thermal, Standard Aerotow Weak Link success, trip to hospital (John completed his alive). Steve Kinsley's in the discussion and mentions my name in conjunction with my version of his release.

Yeah Paul, let's keep doing things over and over again expecting better results; being shocked, SHOCKED when we get even worse results.

Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.

Dickhead. Every time I proned out on a cart in soaring conditions I was concerned about launching. Every time I launched I was expecting to get hit by something lethal and was equipped and wired to respond. But you assholes are just rolling dice hoping to stay lucky for long stretches.

Zach Marzec was an advanced rated pilot who was a tandem instructor for Kitty Hawk Kites where he logged a huge number of aerotow flights.

Tandem rides don't launch pro toad. So should we really be including them as relevant experience with respect to this one? When Holly two thirds bought it at Blue Sky on 2005/05/29 it was ALL ABOUT her having tons of muppet mode AT launches but having zilch qualification for pro toad. So how 'bout we break it down a bit? Or would that necessitate excessive effort from Quest and Kitty Hawk?

He was current (flying every day) and was flying his personal glider that he was very familiar with and had towed many times. Sorry, I do not have specific numbers of hours or flights logged but experience does not appear to have been an issue.

Doesn't matter. He died as a pro toad 2.3 dope on a rope. There's only so far and fast one can stuff a bar to his knees.

The glider was a Moyes Xtralite. This glider was a fairly old design. I believe the last ones built were in the mid 1990's, but it was in good, airworthy condition and rigged properly. I know of no reports that this glider is difficult to tow or has any deficiencies for aero towing but I am not an expert on it and have never flown one.

The glider did NOTHING unexpected. Irrelevant obfuscatory crap. Note that when Jeff Bohl bought it pro toad at your dump on 2016/05/21 there wasn't any discussion about the airworthiness of his glider.

The glider hit base tube first and sustained very little damage upon impact so it was easy to ascertain that the glider did not appear to have had any structural failure that would have caused the accident.

Go fuck yourself. Tell us about the cheap bent pin crap passing for equipment between the glider and the tow ring.

The tow aircraft...

For whom are you writing this? How many glider jocks refer to a Dragonfly tug as "the tow aircraft"?

...was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine...

Right. So that's...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

...SAFER. But it could've been a 582. Those aren't banned from Quest the way Tad-O-Links are. So how come you're not telling us anything about power management from start through Standard Aerotow Weak Link determined disconnect?

...and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot.

Who nevertheless is not qualified enough to be writing this report - or even be identified in it. Why not?

The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard...

...and the weak link was a loop of 130 pound Greenspot with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less which is also standard.

We understand why an approximately 250 feet long Spectra towline is standard. We understand why it's zilch stretch and the issues with going longer and shorter. 250 is a rough sweet spot. Tell us how the single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line placed at one end of a shoulder bridle got to be the standard aerotow weak link for all solo gliders. Do some trail and error. No need to go lower. We can barely get medium gliders off the ground as it is. What happens as we start dialing up? Do we immediately start killing more gliders and tugs?

...and Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all.

Well he was a pro - so OBVIOUSLY he was flying pro toad. But maybe there are some situations in which the configuration isn't optimal for the particular situation. VG, for example, gets you better performance but you don't want full VG when you're thermalling 'cause when flying slow you can't control the glider and you'll be kicked out of the lift. That's why they invented zero VG.

Likewise when you're landing in non pro conditions...

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:43:09 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the DTs. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

...some of your better pilots stay in girl mode until the glider's fully stopped.

Steve tells us that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63574
VG Undone

Steve Pearson - 2020/09/24 22:19:57 UTC

1/2 VG is recommended for aerotowing all Wills Wing gliders configured with VG systems. Towing at less that 50% VG is more difficult because the pitch pressure can be excessively high and that in turn contributes to PIO.

...we need to have the VG set to 0.5 for safe control of Wills Wing gliders on AT. Wouldn't that likely also apply to Moyes gliders? Whether it does or not how come we don't have a statement from Bill on this one? Not worth his time?

Why do we have no statement on what his VG setting was? From this shot:

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we can see what looks like a generous length of VG line wadded up and stowed on some kind of mount up on his starboard downtube. Three possibilities postmortem:
- Most likely... VG still cleated as he usually did for AT launch.
- Highly unlikely:
-- VG 0.0. Either it:
--- was off at launch - in which case that should've been noted and reported by the launch monkey
--- came off upon impact - in which case that should've been noted and reported by the launch monkey
-- VG line cut. We know it was on and was cut by the cleat at impact and thus we know what the setting was

But I guess you're putting a lot more thought and energy into obfuscation than you are into issues that should and would be included in a legitimate report on a global game changer fatal.

So are there ANY circumstances when it might be advantageous to have a connection to the glider? And, if so, since we can't shift modes in flight, might in not be a good idea to mandate a connection to the glider when thermal conditions are threatening?

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Or are we just content to keep killing people on AT every now and then, writing reports as if what happened were beyond the realm of human understanding?

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

Really? On 2011/08/11 it became extremely confusing as to what a Standard Aerotow Weak Link really was...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

We all play by the same rules or we don't play but pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot IF they were doing that. So we really need to know what a Standard Aerotow Weak Link is and why it's standard. It's the focal point of a safe towing system so I think we need some discussion well beyond:

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

The glider was still under some degree of control while it was still connected, the tug was having zilch problem and didn't even report throttling back so why aren't we talking more about this Standard Aerotow Weak Link?

Another pilot had launched with no issues immediately before the accident.

- Why isn't he identified?
- Zack LAUNCHED with no issues. It wasn't until both planes were safely airborne and well into the tow that things started going south.

The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time.

Not according to the initial report he posted. Mark estimates 150 as Zack's max top-out. Where are we getting these figures?

When the lift/turbulence was encountered...

Make up your mind. Is it lift or turbulence? You just said that Mark encountered strong LIFT elevating him quickly and abruptly. Anybody we now ever report getting elevated quickly and abruptly by turbulence? If so we should probably be looking for some really good mileage in really turbulent conditions.

...the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack.

- Oh. The nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. The glider didn't go high and to the right as Mark initially reported. So almost certainly just turbulence. The nose of the glider should be pitching back down quickly to a very low angle of attack within the next second and a half so we should be OK.

- What happened to the "and to the right" (east) part Mark initially reported? Does that get in the way of the "light south west wind" new and improved narrative?

Apparently...

APPARENTLY?

...the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled.

Yeah, it could've done a short tail slide before stalling and then started stalling after completing the short tail slide. If only he'd thought to keep holding the bar full out he could've probably maintained safe airspeed flying backwards, leveled out, thrown his chute before things got overly confusing.

Eye witnesses...

What eyewitnesses? What are their names and qualifications? Why haven't we heard a single account from a ground observer? You thoroughly debriefed them to the point that you were able to compose as thorough and accurate an account as we're ever gonna get so there was absolutely zero need?

...said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low.

But were totally unable to definitively determine whether Zack had flown into the same monster thermal that Mark did, encountered the turbulence into which Mark's monster thermal had morphed during the intervening five seconds, got trashed by the dust devil you're gonna introduce below.

This shit is highly likely happening even with the office / parking / main congregation area at Quest so the witnesses were very likely in excellent observation position(s).

Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

How 'bout his main parachute? No time for that one either?

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Pity he couldn't have cleared up the thermal / turbulence / dust devil issue for us. Maybe expressed his eternal gratitude for the focal point of his safe towing system for very clearly providing protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for that form of towing; keeping him from getting into too much trouble.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation.

Beyond those "FACTS" it would be hard to do much worse with pure speculation.

I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble.

And at this point we've firmly established that what Zack hit was turbulence so this one's totally confounding. UNLESS... What he ACTUALLY hit was a DUST DEVIL!!! I think we're finally starting to get somewhere on this one!

I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems.

- It's physically IMPOSSIBLE to have a weak link break which precipitates a serous problem. Didn't you read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

- No SERIOUS problems? Was Pete Lehmann sanding his knee down to the bone on the runway at Zapata not a serious problem? No wait... You probably didn't personally witness that one so it shouldn't count.

- Weak links aren't supposed to blow until you're ALREADY IN a serious problem. If they're breaking all the fuckin' time with no serious problems then THAT'S a SERIOUS PROBLEM. There's supposed to be a flight plan and it's being derailed on COUNTLESS occasions that you've PERSONALLY WITNESSED then that's a serious problem - the equivalent of engine seizure on takeoff.

- You used to fly sailplanes. Did you witness countless others having weak link breaks with no serious problems in that game?

- Guess you still haven't witnessed a weak link break resulting in a serious problem. You didn't witness this one. You're just doing damage control 'cause Mark revealed he was unqualified for the task when he almost immediately shot his mouth off with an accurate account of what happened.

- How many witnesses did you have on the ground who witnessed this one single weak link success in which there was a serious problem?

We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation...

What situation? A Standard Aerotow Weak Link inconvenience in flight or how to deal with a pro toad tandem aerotow instructor getting fatally splattered on your runway by a Standard Aerotow Weak Link inconvenience in which things didn't go textbook?

...and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly.

I am too. He was a tandem aerotow instructor so he was teaching students how to react properly. And he always ran the simulations in smooth air at two thousand feet with everything going right so they wouldn't be afraid to stuff the bar and hold it until the glider recovered from the gentle stall.

Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence...

I think it as probably a dust devil.

...probably a dust devil...

Yeah, probably a dust devil. Invisible due to the notorious lack of dust in Florida. I think those should be referred to as Florida devils. Really nasty when you don't have any socks, flags. streamers in the vicinity of launch.

...that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida...

Maybe it would be a good idea for you guys to import some dust from Arizona.

...the nose went too high...

Just the nose. The glider itself never climbed more than ten of fifteen inches.

...and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

OK then... Let's keep on doing everything exactly the same so that the next time a situation like this comes up we won't have any serious problems.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

Good thing they're really rare then. Just you, Lauren, Zack so far. And just one near miss in a severe dusty a couple years ago, a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX torn from its tie-down and thrown upside down, a tandem aerotow instructor flying solo pro toad tumbled and killed.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident...

Don't worry, Paul. You've actually done more to shed light on this accident than you'll ever know.

...but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.

That's OK. We'll take it from here. And you and Lauren won't be around in this sport much longer so I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway.

Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life.

Yeah, we could sure tell just by watching the video the day before he bought it.

He will be sorely missed.

Now really. He was a massive problem and embarrassment for u$hPa and the Flight Park Mafia so he won't be getting remembered much by the mainstream.

And here's what you motherfuckers are saying Paul...

We have a time machine. We're gonna go back to the Wednesday before this weekend knowing everything we do about this launch but not who or exactly when the shit's gonna hit the fan. We're gonna launch thirty gliders both Saturday and Sunday afternoon and when this number comes up we won't do one single thing differently 'cause nobody did anything wrong on this one.

We're not gonna:
- plant more wind indicators along the runway
- use:
-- two point bridles
-- Tad-O-Links
-- releases that don't stink on ice
- abort the tow when the tug gets hit
- slow the tow down when the tug gets hit
- instruct the gliders to abort when they see the tug get hit

NOTHING. Shit like this just happens on infrequent occasions. Get over it. Grow a pair. And we're still gonna kill Jeff Bohl a little over three years from now in not terribly different circumstances.

And bear in mind that there was a launch monkey, maybe a cart retrieval driver, probably at least half a dozen AT "pilots" who witnessed this one from start to impact and to this day, seven and two thirds years later, we don't have even the identity - let alone an independent public statement - from any one of them. Must have tons of more important stuff to talk about - year after year after year.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly 20 years and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners. There are other obvious reasons a heavy steel ring is not a great idea swinging around at the end of a 250 foot line.

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary. This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break. Having the rope is not a big problem if you have altitude but can be an issue down low. Although it is easy to get rid of with the chest barrel release, perhaps we will reduce the strength of the chest weak link to one loop. It's always a balancing act. It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly 20 years...

Keep up the great work Quest Air. It took Wilbur and Orville about a quarter of that timespan to understand and develop three axis control, fundamental aeronautical principles; start getting practical powered aircraft off the ground.

And Quest has been INVOLVED in it? The issues involved are so complex and mysterious that y'all needed the collective brainpower of all the other major AT operations? Sure ya got enough cooks to handle things? On top of having Bobby - who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit - on site for at least half the year?

And care to tell us about the contributions of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney? Or would the list eat up too much bandwidth?

...and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners.

- Are you sure that's the proper spelling of "carabiner"? That's not how Davis - Quest's biggest mouth - spells it.

- Yeah? Tell us how you can say that. Where's your data? And where's the advisory we'd expect to see if this were a legitimate issue?

Rooney tells us:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

and nobody's ever challenged that assertion - 'specially Sunny and Adam. So I guess a fifty percent failure rate in any situation that's likely to matter is considered perfect enough by Flight Park Mafia operations.

- Hey Paul...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

Wanna hear just how much of a rat's ass I give about claims asserted by individuals associated with Quest Air?

- Bullshit. Aluminum carabiners have been used at all AT operations since the beginning of time 'cause you can just clip them onto the bridle when the glider's rolled into position. If you use a ring you need to thread the release end of the bridle through the ring then connect to and close the release. Nobody at Quest or anywhere else thought it would be interesting to try a run of a thousand ring tows and see how the wrap rate compared to what you get with small aluminum carabiners.

- How 'bout bridle design?

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/P1020740.jpg


Could that possibly be an issue worthy of consideration in a discussion about BRIDLE WRAP? Course not. Designing and constructing a quality virtually wrap proof bridle...

3-1304
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...involves elements of intelligence, competence, time, effort, expense. Much easier to pick up a dozen keychain quality carabiners at the local hardware store and pronounce any solvable problems solved, nonexistent, nonissues.

- Here's your Quest Miracle Small Aluminum Carabiner:



Ridgely never once used one. They used beat up garden variety nonlocking climbing aluminum ovals.




And wrapping was never a significant issue as far as normal soaring conditions towing was concerned.

There are other obvious reasons a heavy steel ring is not a great idea swinging around at the end of a 250 foot line.

- There are obvious issues using spinnaker shackles for release cores, easily reachable bicycle brake levers velcroed onto downtubes, one-size-fits-all 130 pound Greenspot lockout protectors, pro toad bridles, fixing whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope. Those issues have all killed gliders. But I've never seen Quest get too worried about any of them. Probably not worth your time when always working your asses off to be involved in perfecting aerotowing.

- There was a fucking blindingly obvious reason not to be using a weak link five times longer than it should've been. But that didn't slow you assholes down to the slightest degree.

- How heavy does a steel ring need to be to comfortably handle the sub 400 pound towline load permitted by a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot?

- Tell me how a heavy steel ring SWINGS AROUND at the end of a 250 foot towline. It doesn't. The towline trails straight back and a bit down. The more weight you have on the back end the more down you're gonna get but unless you go totally nuts it's not gonna make all that much difference. And THIS:

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

was enough to have killed the tug but you douchebags never lifted a finger to fix the moronic problem which you should never have had in the first place.

- Doesn't seem to be an issue in sailplane aerotowing...



Why should it be for the Dragonfly crowd?

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary.

And just as you do with the primary you sure don't wanna put a double on BOTH ends of the "chest line" (which a NON dickhead would refer to as the "secondary bridle") 'cause that would double the towline pressure required to blow it.

This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break.

Oh. It CAN and DOES? But those incidents aren't worth putting out global alerts the way you assholes did after your Tad-O-Link pulled the rope off of Russell at Zapata on 2008/07/20?

And these aren't happening on lockouts. Solo lockouts are rare and tandems are virtually nonexistent.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

The tow's totally under control - maybe a bit of bumpy air. But we NEVER hear from operators about tandems separating with the rope - with this ONE exception. 'Cause the tandem drivers are all supposed to be too skilled, smooth, professional to be blowing weak links at either end.

P.S. And a commercial tandem thrill ride that doesn't make it to two grand is a $250 do-over inconvenience. And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

Put a dollar figure on one of THOSE flights that we muppets lose for all eternity due to bullshit like that. And I was a victim of several of those random increases in the safety of the Ridgely towing operation. And fuck you assholes for never condemning in no uncertain terms that mega-asshole. Also for never apologizing for your own substantial contributions.

Having the rope is not a big problem if you have altitude but can be an issue down low.

What's stopping the tandem from instantly dumping it if he's low enough for it to be an issue? If he's that low he's not gonna lose it somewhere out in a soybean field. Oh right... All your releases are within easy reach and you need BOTH hands to fly the glider for an emergency/inconvenience landing.

Although it is easy to get rid of with the chest barrel release...

In theory anyway.

...perhaps we will reduce the strength of the chest weak link to one loop.

Yeah, what's the worst that could happen if a secondary blows first?

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It's always a balancing act.

Ya think?

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

You DELIBERATELY design the Dragonfly so that the tow mast succeeds at exactly the same pressure that both the tug and tandem weak links do and then you start having problems 'cause it actually does what it's designed to do. And you've been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years? One can only begin to imagine the horrors we'd be experiencing if you HADN'T been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.

Here's a thought, Paul... You had to go out of your way to dumb down the tow mast to blow at that tension. It should be a no-brainer to swap in a moderately more dangerous tow mast and have an equally moderately more dangerous front end weak link. Then you could use the standard double on the tandem and the front end would only come into play if the tug were stupid enough to snag something on approach.

It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

- How would you know? Surely the tandem will sill have a safe margin as long as the launch is under some reasonable degree of control on launch? Or are you just extrapolating from people's...

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

...solo experiences?

- Well then what the fuck DO you want, Paul? I set you up with one of my Tad-O-Links that put you a little south of 1.4 Gs. But it didn't break when it was supposed to when you went up pro toad behind Russell at Zapata trying to fly through thermals with one hand. So you went all the way back down to what almost fatally inconvenienced Lauren early in her career from fifty feet with everything going fine. Would it have been OK to use the Tad-O-Link after Russell told everybody to double them up right after Pete Lehmann got seriously inconvenienced?

This isn't supposed to be a BALANCING ACT. In sailplaning the tugs, gliders, releases, weak links are all designed, engineered, built to do their fuckin' jobs and they don't go through all these decades of endless moronic lethal Hewett-based bullshit.

P.S. Tell me how much fun you think it would be if your bottom end blew, top end didn't, bridle wrapped.

Mounted on the wing propulsion system!
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36791

TheDude - 2020/10/31 07:30:06 UTC

Having thrust higher than CG was often a contentious issue in the Gyro world. It is now considered acceptable. Large horizontal stabilizers are expected. It is referred to as PPO (Powered Push Over) and has deadly consequences if the rotors are unloaded. Gyros are being developed with high CG thrust, one of my favourites is the Fusioncopter JK-2 Nano.

http://www.fusioncopter.eu/poznaj-nano/22
Poznaj NANO - Fusion Copter

Not sure what can be learnt from this, but it is food for thought.

Having thrust higher than CG was often a contentious issue in the Gyro world.

Having thrust way the hell below the CG was occasionally a contentious issue in the earlier years of hang glider aerotowing but about a decade and a half ago...

It is now considered acceptable.

...it was determined to be so acceptable that it was made mandatory for all comp launches.

Large horizontal stabilizers are expected.

We expect extra bar pressure. But that's just a temporary minor comfort issue.

It is referred to as PPO (Powered Push Over)...

We refer to it as PPRO towing. The three point hookups are for newbies and fags.

...and has deadly consequences if the rotors are unloaded.

We're OK as long as we've been properly trained to react to a Standard Aerotow Weak Link inconvenience and we're not stupid enough to follow the tug into an invisible dust devil shortly after takeoff.

Gyros are being developed with high CG thrust, one of my favourites is the Fusioncopter JK-2 Nano.

For low CG thrust in hang gliders I like the Moyes Xtralite 147. It has a really long track record.

Not sure what can be learnt from this, but it is food for thought.

In hang gliding we don't do thinking...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

Tends to conflict with the depth of experience of the people that work at and run aerotow parks and have very deep depths of experience, extremely long track records, and a proven system that works.

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post12156.html#p12156
=== ===
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mh88A48ug
Aerotowing Hang Gliders by Steve Young

Steve Young - 2020/12/01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mh88A48ug


Aerotowing Hang Gliders particularly take off and control in the air. These films are of the Atos VR+ but all comments are the same for Flex Wing Hang Gliders

http://ozreport.com/24.238
Towing Training
On an ATOS VR+

Steve Young - 2020/12/02 13:10:08 UTC

One tiny advantage of this lockdown and working from home is you get time to go through the GoPro films and edit them. Here is a video of my aero towing flying this year with my Atos VR+. I have used the video as a coaching video for flex wings and rigids. As everything applies to both.

Massive stills project. Justification... Kite Strings was founded primarily to address aerotowing issues and - even though it doesn't do much of anything - that's the stated purpose of this video. Probably only such in existence and isn't it interesting that the only such in existence was produced altruistically by an individual recreational pilot and not a Flight Park Mafia operation. (Note that Davis has posted this on his newsletter but there's been zilch discussion of it on his forum - or anywhere else.)

Posting in "bridles" 'cause this is one point and every second we see him airborne on tow he's pulled in to some degree - and mostly a lot. The higher performance the wing the better you'll be able to get away with this and this is about the highest performance wing one can do, totally kicks flexy ass... But still...

Easily reachable release(s) in an overlength pro toad setup. No mention of weak link or related issues - but launches and tows up with his pod unzipped - so we know it's on his mind.

All launches (we see three) - from roll to up hugely above the kill zone - are in brain-dead easy/nothing conditions. So there's nothing to handle and there's nothing to discuss in the way of equipment and tug and glider pilot actions and responses. Stays on the cart until he has tons of airspeed. Where are Bobby and Malcolm when you really need them?

All three releases - 042-15841, 095-31112, probably 242-53924 (Flights 1, 2, 3) - are with the trike throttled way back and at very low tension. Good thing - if Steve's release is anything like the quality of US Flight Park Mafia crap.

Nothing remotely resembling a turn on tow or even a terribly significant roll on or off tow prior to the two (irrelevant) landing sequences at the end and nothing to write home about on those.

Speaking of writing... The quality of what we're seeing in the captions shouldn't past muster in a third grade English classroom. And if we can't be bothered to get / aren't capable of getting that much right...

Note the operation of the spoilers as we're doing roll control.

All sequences are from the starboard wing (eight) or tail (six). In all tail sequences the camera's at an unfortunate substantial counterclockwise rotation which puts the horizon and wing at an unfortunate substantial clockwise rotation so it's a no-brainer that those all represent the same day - if not flight.

Some stills from the final landing sequence selected for view of the base of operations.

I don't know where this is yet so haven't been able to use Google Earth to get a better idea of what's going on.

Hey Steve, for your next project... Two flights. Go way up smooth air and:
- stand it on its tail
- roll it into a lockout
That will show all us muppets just how effective BHPA AT weak links are in ensuring we have safe recoveries if thermals or dust devils blow us out of sustainable tows down in the kill zone. (And give your parachute manual a good review beforehand.) (Notice the way nobody's ever documented any such deliberate drills before?)

Search forward and backward on "===" to jump through the sequences. Searching for a hyphen takes you frame by frame pretty seamlessly. And searching for "http" does it totally seamlessly. Go fast or hold your keys down for a pretty good fast motion movie effect.

-001 - chronological order
- -0 - minutes
- 05 - seconds
- 29 - frame (48 fps)

Aerotowing an Atos VR+ Hang Glider
Steve Young.

I suggest you have sound on so you can hear commands and Tug engine.
All checks on Glider and harness complete

===
Flight 1. New sequence. No tail camera. Hangar area to starboard / behind our camera.

001-00529
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002-01625
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Check out dragonfly making pass between helmet and wing. (When he grows up we can put him to use in these operations.)

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As you call ALL OUT pull in to move your mass forward ready for lift off. If you don't you will balloon up as you leave the trolley, but hold on tight to the trolley handles so you do not get pulled out of the trolley as it accelerates.

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008-04937
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Notice the keel leaves the trolley first, Keep a tight hold on the trolley handles then once you feel the glider lifting then release them

009-05115
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015-05705
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Ground camera at upwind edge of frame.

016-05722
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Hi doggies.

024-10240
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Windsock. Light straight in headwind.

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030-14924
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Note trees at the far right corner (with reference to the frame) of the field beyond the runway field and the hedge separating the fields and running back to the left towards launch. Compare to landing sequence starting at 262-55408. This is the hedge we're clearing going onto final.

031-15029
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===
Flight 1. New sequence.

032-15200
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033-15235
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I released at 2000 ft.
As the tug waves you off notice you can hear the tug throttle back, you then pull in slightly to release tension and release.

034-15527
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038-15741
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Fails to blow it on first effort.

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045-15905
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Note glider closing back on towline chute in this frame.

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OK, now zip up your pod. When you get finished with that we can go flying.

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055-20345
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Now zip up and go find a thermal!

Good luck. Widespread overcast, zilch in the way of cumies, glassy smooth tow... This one's a sled.

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===

This launch is in virtually nill wind

Flight 2. New sequence. Same:
- absence of tail camera
- hookup guy as Flight 1

Bird's eye views of the hangar, launch area at 262-55408 and 300-61520.

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notice the keel leave the trolley first again

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Windsock.

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===
Flight 2. New sequence. (What looks like snow is sunlit terrain.)

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Pulled in to effect an easy release using his easily reachable pro toad release.

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Left hand shifted to center in preparation for one-handed control. One wonders if he's ever bothered to consider a scenario in which his life will depend upon releasing while maintaining what control he can with BOTH hands on the control bar - the way they are through all other phases of these flights save for the two depicted stunt landings.

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Pop.

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Now we're gonna start working on getting our pod closed.

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Trike starts to appear at edge of frame.

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Pod closed. Now we can move on to flying the glider.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence. Tail camera, soaring conditions. Note second Atos parked in the shadow of the hangar.

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Starting separation.

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Smile. Tug's airborne. Go to full rez (using the URL). Even at full power on takeoff we can see the prop blades. There's four of them.

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Nice to be able to start and stay prone and have both hands on the control bar throughout the first of the two most dangerous phases of flight, ain't it Steve?

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Compare/Contrast with 031-15029. Taking off in the opposite direction. We can see both ends of the runway in the second landing sequence at 302-61712 (that one far).

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===
Flight 3. New sequence. Same launch from the wing.

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Note tail camera.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence. (Continuation of the flight started at 111-31703 with the tail camera.)

147-42116
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This was a thermic day and the Tug hit a pocket of sink

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Title shot. This is the absolute worst the situation can get on an aerotow and Steve's gonna show us how to deal with it. We'd also be well advised to review relevant material in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden. If we can handle this situation we can handle anything.

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Nice recovery, Steve.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence, same flight.

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The glider pilot needs to pull on quickly and try to stay with the tug, then ease the bar out to try to keep the tension on the line

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Speaking of tension... Watch the towline chute over the course of the next ten frames. Makes for a pretty good tension gauge.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence, same flight.

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The glider pilot needs to react quickly to the movement of the tug, try to stay in line. Try to make short small movements quickly, if they are too large or you will over correct and get out of phase (dutch roll)

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We're probably not gonna fly/tow any better for having read this. And if we can't handle this up high very well we probably shouldn't have launched in these conditions.

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Watch the tension gauge again. Probably the same sequence we're seeing above from the wing camera.

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Gawd it's nice when you see the captions turned back off.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence, same flight.

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Tension gauge.

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===
Flight 3. New sequence, same flight.

The air did get much smoother as we gained altitude

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Yeah. Starting to climb through cloudbase. Nothing happening - so we just needed that one shot.
===
Flight 3. New sequence, same flight.

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Left hand starts moving to center.

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We can see the wave-off (right arm).

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The tug's slowed down so much that you can't see a jolt to pinpoint the instant the release has been effected.

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Let's designate this one as the last frame on tow.

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And we again have plenty of time to deal with the pod.

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Well done again.

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===
New sequence. Landing. Highly likely Flight 3. Note hangar area.

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And here I was thinking that hang gliders only landed in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

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Approaching runway (perpendicularly).

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Nice job navigating around the tail wires.

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Real world foot landings with well timed flares are UGLY. And in aviation that's pretty much a synonym for DANGEROUS.

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Compare/Contrast the other end of the flight:
- 121-34242
- 143-41944

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===
New sequence. No tail camera. Landing with hangar to starboard so good bet this is Flight 1.

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Hangar on far side of runway at top edge of frame.

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See above about ugliness.

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=== ===
Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post12153.html#p12153

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mh88A48ug
Aerotowing Hang Gliders by Steve Young

Steve Young - 2020/12/01

As you call ALL OUT pull in to move your mass forward ready for lift off. If you don't you will balloon up as you leave the trolley, but hold on tight to the trolley handles so you do not get pulled out of the trolley as it accelerates.

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PULL IN to move your mass FORWARD to ready your glider for liftoff? If you don't you will BALLOON UP as you leave the cart? Are you TOTALLY INSANE?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

Bad things...

Having to push out of the cart.
Your AOA is too high or you're pulling in (or both!).

If you're having to push out when pro-towing (and your cart AOA is right), then you're allowing yourself to get pulled through the control frame. This is an easier mistake to make pro towing as YOU must transmit all the energy of the tow to the glider (through your hang strap). In three point towing, 1/2 the energy is transmitted to the glider, 1/2 to you. In pro towing, you're it.
The tug will "want" to pull you through the bar.
If you let it, you're essentially pulling in.

All result in leaving the cart at too high a speed.
Why is this bad? I thought speed was good?
Too much of anything is bad.
You pretty much guarantee that you will slam into the propwash. Not only does this make the glider harder to control (you're now swiming in the rapids instead of a calm lake), it tends to help break weaklinks.

This is normal everyday highspeed cart exit.
Taking things a bit further...
Take the "I shouldn't need to do anything on tow" mentality (UHG!) and mix it with transitioning to pro towing.
This gets really interesting really fast.

Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.

Even when a bad habit pilot does NOTHING, just lets the tug drag him around by the nose and pull him through the control frame, the effect is the same as the pilot pulling in... a LOT. Jim Rooney has seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way. The results are NEVER pretty. Just look at the pictures - this one:

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for example. The glider has begun pitching further down and you're STILL PULLING IN. And just look at how ugly the results are:

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One DOES wonder just a bit, however, how if:
- the bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him through the control frame
- being pulled through the control frame by the tug has the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT
- Jim Rooney seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way
- the results are never pretty
this obvious failure to pilot the glider properly - in accordance with common sense ferchrisake - this serious absence of proper control input manages to develop into a HABIT.

For starters we really hafta start wondering about the competence of instructors, tug pilots, launch directors, flight park operators, meet heads, fellow AT pilots, the u$hPa incident reporting system... Yeah, here comes Billy the Bad Habit Pilot again. (Really thought he'd stay in the hospital a lot longer than this after that last one.) Let's hook him up again and watch this next installment of the inevitable. Give the 911 operator the usual heads up...

So where are the videos...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

Jim Rooney - 2007/12/13 18:07:02 UTC

Pics or it didn't happen pal.

...PAL?

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This one work?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


No wait. That's Davis - who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - and he was attempting to get airborne on a defective launch cart and is hooked up three point with Industry Standard releases and an Infallible Weak Link. (And just imagine how much worse (better) this one would've been if he'd been hooked up pro toad being pulled forward through the control frame twice as hard.)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings

Pat Halfhill - 2019/07/03 19:18:03 UTC

I've been landing poorly lately and started to read this thread from the beginning. It makes me miss Jim Rooney. A great pilot and teacher

Yep, a really great pilot and teacher. We all miss him terribly and just look at where the sport's going in his absence. But I do wonder what's stopping him from weighing in on critical issues like this one once in a while. What a waste of natural talent, experience, intellect, insight, professional opinion. Now we're reduced to listening to the opinions of Limey assholes like Steve Young - who doesn't even fly tugs, let alone 914 Dragonflies.

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That's the closest this useless twat's ever gonna get to a 914 Dragonfly.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

Same thing with a Mosquito harness...

http://www.wimdegier.nl/sports/mosquito-hang-gliding/
Mosquito hang gliding | Wim de Gier


...right, Jim? Pulled from in front or pushed from behind it's the same deal - forward thrust is forward thrust. And if it's all down on the pilot and not distributed/aligned between the pilot and wing that's gonna pull/push him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Aerosport_Mosquito
Swedish Aerosport Mosquito

The glider's handling with the NRG is similar to a normal unpowered hang glider. The higher weight gives the pilot more control but the pilot's body is about 20cm further forward than usual.

So if you're floating around at idle and suddenly floor it you need too push forward on the bar to keep from going into a dive. Right? Increased thrust AND nose down. Not a great combination in lotsa situations that might come to mind. And I'll bet Swedish Aerosport doesn't even have an advisory out on this extremely serious issue. I've seen gliders go negative in critical low altitude situations this way. The results are never pretty.

Never considered this issue before. Same as aerotowing one point - you're losing a fair bit of top end range. But I can't see it as much of a safety issue. On AT the worse it gets the worse it gets fast 'cause the tension going up fast, the situation's probably not sustainable - weak link or front or back end release, there WILL BE a nasty stall. On the Mosquito you just ease off on your bite and you're smoothly and quickly back to back to certified mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mh88A48ug
Aerotowing Hang Gliders by Steve Young

Our job on the back end is to stay in optimal position behind the tug at all times. We'll toss out turns 'cause:
- there's no issue with them
- they're:
-- essentially nonexistent down in the kill zone
-- totally nonexistent in any flight at any altitude in Steve's how-to video

Given smooth air - which is most of what we have even in good soaring conditions - we want the glider level with the tug (tug on the horizon) and tension as close to constant as we can keep it once the tug's airborne for the most efficient climb. (And most efficient translates to safest. (And no, when the Rooney Link decides to drop the tension to zero in a millisecond for no reason that doesn't widen anybody's safety margins.))

Glider's just off the cart, towline's about as perfectly horizontal as we can hope to get it, were optimal when it most counts.

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Pro toad, bar stuffed, look at the towline angle now.

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Now we're back to horizontal high in the kill zone with the bar still substantially back.

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Tug on the ground and horizon, situation optimal.

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Bar stuffed, glider high, not so much anymore. (Wing's pretty camouflaged but doable.)

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Better.

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Got it back (plus a wee bit o' daylight) - finally.

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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

But go ahead and hook up with nothing to trim the nose down so the glider can be optimally, safely controlled; tow tension kept as low and steady as possible; climb will be executed at max efficiency.

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Real world atmospheric conditions and aeronautical physics finally kicked in and had a major say in your safety margins - motherfucker. And permanently shut you up. And that was about the best day this sport has ever seen and ever will.

This one...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Wasn't great but you and your hordes of pet cocksuckers made it necessary.
---
Davis Show still down.