instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21312
Bungee HG Launch!
Chad May - 2011/03/23 17:15:52 UTC
Nashville

Hey, many of you have already seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0eWmVhQ9Tg


It's Pat Denevan at Mission Soaring doing a 5-foot ground skim using a bungee cord.

I want to do this with my Falcon 3 195. I would like to demonstrate HG without motors and mountains...

I'm waiting on Mission to repsond to my emails, and thought I would ask to see if anyone here had any "how-to" about this... how much bungee, costs, limitations, etc.

I'll post video if I get it to work.
Brings to mind an incident that took out an important local figure shortly after I started in hang gliding at the first site - a ninety foot training hill - I flew off the Outer Banks and where I first flew the first of the two gliders I've owned. The report doesn't mention bungee but I have it in my head that that's what it was.
Doug Hildreth - 1981/04

There were three towing accidents, with one death - an experienced free flyer who was trying people towing for the first time. Unfortunately, his over-enthusiasm to soar and his reliance on his free flight experience resulted in his death.
Doug Hildreth - 1981/06

1980/08/23 - Ronald Higgs - 30 - Raven 209 - Lilypons - Buckeystown, Maryland

Hang IV flyer, Ron was getting "people tows," with his brother and others slinging him along with a pulley/bridle system. On his last launch, he got better wind, rose at 45 degrees to 100', got into a right hand lockout, then a wingover and dive back into the hill. No defined tips or anti-luff lines on the glider at the time.
J.C. Brown, Keith Nichols, Peter Gray - 1980/09
Albuquerque

Why are some pilots flying without their reflex bridles? Apparently, some are doing it because it makes ground handling easier; others because they believe their gliders handle or perform better without reflex lines. For whatever reason, anyone who removes the reflex bridles from a glider designed to have them, isn't playing with a full deck.
Burr Smith - 1980/11

Please add as a footnote to J.C. Brown, Keith Nichols and Peter Gray's letter on reflex bridles (also known locally as leech lines), the observation that a number of the fatal accidents reported in R.V. Wills' accident review could clearly be related to the lack of such simple and basic safety devices. My own near-fatal accident on 4 May '80 was clearly so related, after repeated urging from the designer of my B.F.G. glider (Terry Sweeney) to fit a reflex bridle to the glider. Since my accident we have suffered a fatal accident in this region in which the pilot, an experienced flier, had removed the tip definers, an equally dangerous practice.

The message is so painfully clear. If they come on the glider, leave 'em there; and if your glider is older and not so equipped get competent directions for a retrofit. Clumsy ground handling is certainly a small price to pay for a pitch-positive glider.
Les King, one of the Region 9 Directors and head of Sport Flight, the big local shop and school, witnessed the flight and reported expecting the glider to pull out of the dive in the next instant all the way to the ground.

This, of course, was still frame towing but I still wouldn't categorize it as a towing incident. He had finished the tow and would've recovered from the dive if he hadn't decertified his glider and returned himself to the good ol' days of full luff dives. How and at what altitude he got into the dive weren't particularly relevant. But, of course, around here it was always a towing accident for as long as people remembered it and ammunition for the argument that no further movement should be pursued along the lines of using a line to get someone airborne.

Then fifteen years later the Frank Sauber scooter and Bill Bennett / Mike Del Signore aero tandem fatalities came along and breathed new life into what was left of that faction. A Koch release would very probably have been all Frank needed and Bill and Mike would've been OK with a tug driver who understood that he has a lot better ability to climb than the glider does.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21313
Lockout
Mike Lake - 2011/03/23 19:39:23 UTC

Hang Glider Lock-Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
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http://www.kitestrings.org/post6995.html#p6995
Don't worry, I am told the pilot has been well and truly briefed and managed some successful flights later in the day.

The video demonstrates just how quickly and severely a lockout can develop.
Also notice the 'saviour of all things bad' weak link offered no help at all.
Yeah, well OBVIOUSLY that's 'cause he was using a STRONG link - something in excess of 1.0 Gs.
Skyting Criterion 7: Infallible Weak Link

The system must include a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation.
The towline tension was in no uncertain terms WELL in excess of the limit for safe operation, he was NOT infallibly and automatically released, he WOULD have been killed in the ensuing stall and dive, therefore he WAS using a weak link in excess of one G in flagrant violation of the Skyting Criteria. No freakin' way that would've happened on a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on one end of a bridle. DUH.
Fortunately the pilot was able to release in an instant, but imagine if he had to faf about for an extra second or two! Scary stuff.
Hey, forget that. If ya REALLY want scary stuff let's imagine THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release Image
Cool!
I was impressed with the recovery of the glider. These flying machines are awesome nowadays.
Yeah, as long as you're a bit higher than Holly was.
Bob Flynn - 2011/03/23 19:51:00 UTC

I remember when my instructor put us into an intentional lockout during training.
Did he show you how little downside there is to taking a hand of the basetube to blow a release when you're fighting one?
The weak link didn't break then either.
Should've done your training at Wallaby. Their weak links break before you can get into too much trouble.
It was a bit scary but definitely needs to be required training.
Why? What are you able to do better after you've completed it?
The pilot seemed to pio a bit. Good thing he had some altitude.
Yeah. Like Mike Haas didn't.
Jim Gaar - 2011/03/23 19:51:47 UTC

Even with a topless wing, a fast trike tow can get you to lockout quickly.
And when one of your wings is in a bullet thermal and the other is in the falls you don't even have to be on tow to lock out quickly.
Weaklinks are never to be trusted to save you or your gear!!!
But use really light ones anyway - 'cause you just never know when one might.
It is the PILOT that must be the weakest link... Image I thought everyone knew this!

RELEASE and tow again. Looks a lot like my first tow behind a turbo DF on a U2.
HOWEVER I did not wait until it was too late to release and just kept my turn and landed... to re-tow.
Good job, Jim.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Kinda makes you wonder about all those assholes who wait too long while they're trying to save it and end up in serious trouble.
Jack Barth (Eteamjack) - 2011/03/23 19:58:26 UTC

Trikes are inherently harder to tow behind especially in windy conditions.
Hugo Pronto - 2011/03/24 18:14:32 UTC

A very look alike one here in Portugal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdE5DyqfUCg


:shock: JEBUS!!!
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/24 20:48:15 UTC
Queenstown

Wow, there's just so much wrong here... I won't even bother.
Image
Super.
A couple things to take note of though...
Aw shit. You're gonna go right ahead and bother anyway.
...notice how long the pilot held onto the tow before giving it up. It's easy to sit back and say what he should have done... but do realize that THIS is instinct.... when things go badly, you're brain locks up as well.
Assuming it was functioning before... Yeah, that's a possibility for some people.
We all know "object fixation"... this is a slightly different but similar mental process.
Mental processes... I'm guessing this is stuff somebody told you about at Ridgely 'cause you've never actually experienced it for yourself.
And yeah, notice how FAST it happens... "all good... almost got it... almost... OH shit!"
mapjim - 2011/03/24 21:09:25 UTC
UK

One of his first tows, I believe.
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/24 21:23:26 UTC

On a topless? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This one just keeps getting better!
Image
Yeah Jim - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It's not like a Ridgely trained pilot has ever oscillated, locked out in smooth air and fallen out of reach of a Ridgely shitrigged release; had a Ridgely shitrigged release jam; missed the Ridgely airport and landed in the middle of a cornfield; made the Ridgely airport and flown into a pond or taxiway sign; ripped an arm out of a socket landing in light air at an airport; run off a mountain without being connected to his (and his passenger's) glider.
Tom Lyon (JackieB) - 2011/03/24 21:32:55 UTC
Michigan
It's easy to sit back and say what he should have done...
I completely agree... until one gets a bit of experience to understand and cope with a situation.

I transitioned over to hang gliders with lots of towing experience as a licensed sailplane pilot. On one tandem tow, I initiated some nasty PIO's and my instructor decided to let me work it out, although he was speaking to me urgently.

I realized after about my third time back and forth that I wasn't getting closer to dampening the oscillations, so I released for an uneventful landing and went right back up (successfully) five minutes later. My instructor gave me great marks for decision-making even though I obviously failed the skill part of that tow.

I may not have had the wits to release, or even know how far out of position I was, if I didn't have so much previous towing experience.

So, I would say that anyone concerned about towing should get some tandem tows where the instructor helps simulate lockout, low releases, and whatever it takes to feel really comfortable. I am not too worried about lockout now (I'm very, very low time) because I feel like (in a glider appropriate for my skill level) that I'll have plenty of time to see it coming and release.

I won't be thinking that the weaklink can do anything to rescue me if I do lockout.
So then what are you using a weak link for, what's its rating, and why are you using that rating?
Tom Lyon - 2011/03/24 21:56:32 UTC

Jim can speak for himself, of course.
Bullshit. Jim always speaks for the entire rotten Industry.
But towing is formation flying with energy for the flight coming from another aircraft and being transmitted through a rope. One should assume that it will be complicated and challenging at first, regardless of experience level.
Bullshit. It NEVER stops being challenging and it can and does become overwhelming in an instant.
So, the logical progression, even for an experienced pilot, would be to make tandem tows with an instructor until the instructor was satisfied with skills, then tow solo with a training hang glider, then move up from there until ready to tow with the topless.
Fuck that. Zillions of us learned to fly and tow, surface and aero, without having babysitters along - quite safely and successfully, thank you very much.
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/25 02:16:52 UTC

I would never tow anyone for their first tow on a topless.
I've been asked a number of times and all I can think is WTF???? Are you NUTS?!

You're going to go do something that you have no experience doing AND try to do it with the most difficult equipment available???? Image
Yeah, Jim.

- That's what I and a lot of other pilots did before you assholes came along and invented everything.

- And:

-- that's apparently what this guy was able to do on his second and all successive flights

-- his first flight wasn't bad until after he had reached a pretty safe altitude

-- he's a topless pilot so he's probably not so freakin' clueless and incompetent that he wouldn't have blown tow before he got dangerously out of whack down low where it mattered

-- I notice that things never got ridiculous enough for the tug driver to cut him loose from the other end
People need to check their egos at the door.
What was that one or the Ridgely crowd called you while you were surging ahead with that keen intellect for which you've become so well known? Mister Know-It-All?
Towing is serious shit and I don't give a shit how much time you've got on your little racecar... ya need to step back and learn on a Falcon.
Yeah. A Falcon. Wasn't that the glider that Roy Messing was killed on shortly after coming off the cart at Whitewater seventeen months ago?
PS... so yeah, what Jackie said ;)
So you'd never tow anyone for their first tow on a topless... Let's see who else you won't tow...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
You won't tow people unless they're using very very reliable bent pin shitrigged releases that they buy from Adam who created you in His own image out of one of his turds...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...that jam half the over half the time in emergency situations.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
I would much rather be off tow when I want to be on than on tow when I want/need to be off.
You won't tow me with a one and a half G weak link because YOU can't figure out how the get off tow without rolling and pushing out to blow a weak link and thus you assume that I can't either.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
You won't tow millions of comp pilots most of whom just wanna make their own decisions well within the limits of USHGA and FAA regulations.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Neither you nor any of your pigfucker friends will tow a flight park owner - or anyone else with anything over a single loop of 130 'cause... You:

-"think" that a fuzzy enough weak link can compensate for one of the very very reliable bent pin shitrigged releases that they buy from Adam.

- are all too stupid to realize that:
-- you need to use your own release levers to save your useless asses
-- the glider end weak link doesn't override the tug end weak link

- all "think" that a double loop of Greenspot will create immeasurable and unforeseeable dangers to your useless asses when it's on a solo glider but it's OK as long as it's on a tandem

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
If you don't feel like it you won't tow anyone who's made a decision to keep his plane on tow 'cause with your keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular you're ALWAYS gonna know what's better for a plane 250 feet away in a mirror than its pilot does.

While we're on the subject of people being allowed to control the gliders they're hooked into...
The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

The passenger, believed to be a tourist in her twenties, suffered minor to moderate leg lacerations.
- Neither you nor any of the assholes who signed you off on anything believe in complying with the hook-in check requirement 'cause if it were worthwhile "we'd all be doing it already."

- So while your passenger is "safely" clipped into the glider you're not.

- So now you're dangling from the basetube and, consequently, the glider's in a screaming dive heading for the powerlines.

- You're not clipped in, you're not standing in the control frame, you have absolutely no chance of climbing into the control frame, you've effectively decertified the glider and rendered it uncontrollable...

- I'd say that at this point you've negated your status as Pilot In Command.

- Your "passenger" however IS clipped in and IS in position to control the glider if the fucking asshole who's got her diving for the powerlines would just get the hell off and give her a chance. She's probably watched the video and/or been briefed on the basic up-down-left-right stuff and, even if she hasn't, if you'd just LET THE HELL GO it's pretty much a no brainer that she's gonna clear the power lines. I'd say that at this point SHE deserves the designation of Pilot In Command.

- You have a parachute.

- Yeah, she CAN still get killed after losing the crud on the basetube and clearing the powerlines but:

-- in the only other case like this that I know about (1977, US Nationals, Heavener, Oklahoma) the never-flown-before passenger - also a chick - and the glider came out smelling like roses; and

-- your passenger is going into the powerlines and I can't think of anything I'd less like her - or me - to crash into.

- But, undoubtedly due to your keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular, you must've foreseen that she'd only suffer minor to moderate leg lacerations.

- Good call Jim. God only knows what might have happened to her if you HADN'T bravely clung to the basetube and forced her into the powerlines.

But we digress...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

...cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
Did you see what happened to those gliders AFTER they blew off - probably without even popping the weak links and DEFINITELY without pitching out abruptly and undoubtedly while trying to do just the opposite like any sane person would? What do you think your glider - and the ground - are gonna do AFTER you've pitched out abruptly and destroyed that little piece of string?

This is a rhetorical question I REALLY don't want you answering or thinking about too much 'cause I'm REALLY hoping someone will get you doing it on video and post it with no sensitivity whatsoever regarding the feelings of your family.
2011/03/28 20:27:06 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
Fuck you, selbaer.
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MikeLake
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by MikeLake »

Tad Eareckson wrote:
Jim Rooney - 2011/03/25 02:16:52 UTC

I would never tow anyone for their first tow on a topless.
I've been asked a number of times and all I can think is WTF???? Are you NUTS?!

You're going to go do something that you have no experience doing AND try to do it with the most difficult equipment available???? Image
Yeah, Jim.

- That's what I and a lot of other pilots did before you assholes came along and invented everything.

- And:

-- that's apparently what this guy was able to do on his second and all successive flights

-- his first flight wasn't bad until after he had reached a pretty safe altitude

-- he's a topless pilot so he's probably not so freakin' clueless and incompetent that he wouldn't have blown tow before he got dangerously out of whack down low where it mattered
Quote Lockout pilot
...more determined I was to stay on the line and try to correct the PIO but to no avail so I locked out at about 300-400ft. If it had got bad lower down, I'd have quit and released much sooner.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Yeah...

Now if we can just get a little more information.

If it's a UK flight... The BHPA has totally moronic weak link regulations. For a hook-in weight range of 75 to 150 KG ya gotta use a 125 decaNewton weak link and - although you're free to go as insanely lower as you like - they'll publicly disembowel you if you go higher.

Let's call the topless 35 KG so the G range is 1.16 for the little stuff to 0.69 for the top end - 'cause, of course, everybody knows that big people tend to be slow and stupid and thus need way more lockout protection than the wee folk.

And the closest Tost comes to a 125 insert is 120 so there's a real good chance we're talking Gs even a bit lower.

Can you contact this guy? I would SO LOVE to know glider model and size and hook-in weight and confirm weak link so we can use that video as a weapon against these Head Trauma / Ryan / Jack assholes who are telling everybody how great things will be after they just roll a little more and push out a bit to blow the Greenspot.

P.S. It would also be fun to know what he's using in the way of a release. Koch?
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Posts: 65
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by MikeLake »

Tad Eareckson wrote:Can you contact this guy? ....
...It would also be fun to know what he's using in the way of a release. Koch?
A bit more info.

The release was a Koch type.

Quote pilot.
The weak link broke as I was about to release. Taking a hand off the bar at that angle is psychologically difficult to do. On a previous flight where I released, there was an almost complete momentary loss of control when taking a hand off. You have to do it quickly! After the lockout, there was a moment of weightlessness, the glider turned on its wingtip and I was facing directly at the ground. Before I could brown myself, the glider had pulled out of the dive.
So two hands are better than one. But this is well known, isn't it?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I have a Koch but that was releasing early without my input - the plate on the short lever catches on the harness at the tow angle and causes it to release.

DanH has reported the same experience with a Koch release.

However, on the tow that resulted in the lockout I had switched to a release lent to me. It was a Koch type - with two levers - but a tube type of construction.

I don't know what make but you are probably more familiar and know the type I mean.
When you're using a tangle of stupid flappy string V kludge...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post154.html#p154

...where you should be using a piece of hardware beautifully thought out and engineered for the job you're using dangerous shitrigged equipment.

When you're using a piece of hardware beautifully thought out and engineered for a specific job for another almost entirely different job you may also be using dangerous shitrigged equipment.

The Koch two stage is designed:
- to be:
-- mounted at the chest
-- actuated easily by hand in a configuration in which it's difficult to engineer a both-hands-on-the-basetube solution
- for surface towing in which the tow angle starts at zero and stabilizes at around seventy degrees
- to:
-- accommodate the changing tow angle by shifting the line of tension from above to below the basetube without interfering with it
-- allow the ends of a split bridle to be released sequentially under normal situations and simultaneously in an emergency

NONE OF THAT is the least bit relevant to an appropriate for one point or the secondary system of two point aerotowing.

In aerotowing you're pulling off your shoulders, it's so brain dead easy and cheap to engineer a both-hands-on- the-basetube solution that there's no sane reason not to use one, the tow angle starts and stays at zero, you're thus towing over and well clear of the basetube at all times; and there's no split towline running to it which requires a lot of clever engineering and complexity.

Mounted on the shoulders for aerotowing this thing is an overbuilt, inefficient, overly complex, dangerous piece of shit that rivals the very very reliable bent pin release in the stupidity category.

Even a pair of barrel releases...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/
Image

...which you could do crudely and easily for under fifteen bucks and a zillionth of the weight, bulk, and drag would blow this piece of junk out of the water. Even a single barrel would do that.
So two hands are better than one.
No, no, no, no.

This is an old wives' tale. Has its origins in the pre Hewett Bridle days.

Back then gliders were capable of locking out if the glider got too far off line. But a center of mass bridle will pull the pilot back under the high wing and bring things back to center. It's auto correcting. The pilot really doesn't have to do anything so he can do whatever the hell he wants with his hands and thus the location of the release actuator isn't really important.

Asterisk. IF, for some unknown reason, the system fails to auto correct in time the pilot and/or bridle may be pulled into the inside downtube and/or nose wire. Then and only then is the glider capable of locking out and the location of the release actuator becomes critical. But - too bad - you've already put it someplace else.

But anyway, you really don't need to worry about this anyway if you use a weak link under 1.00 Gs 'cause it'll blow before you can possibly get that far out of position.

This guy was flying a Litespeed S4, hooked in at 85 kilograms, and was probably using a 120 decaNewton weak link, possibly a 125. So that would've put him at 1.04 to 1.08 Gs.

Folks, when the rule is at or below one G - STAY at or below one G. See what happens when you sneak just a TINY bit over it?
Taking a hand off the bar at that angle is psychologically difficult to do.
Yeah, it's all psychological. You have an oscillating glider that's just maxed out its last cycle big time and is about to go into a horrendous weak link blowing lockout and stall. What could be a POSSIBLE downside to totally surrendering what little control you still have at this point? You had OVER THREE HUNDRED FEET ferchrisake!!! It's not like you were down low where it mattered - like Dan Cudney, Joel Lewis, Frank Sauber, Richard Graham, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Mike Nooy, Hikobe Junko, Mike Haas, Holly Korzilius, John Woiwode, John Dullahan, Steve Elliot. And three of those people weren't even killed. And John just got a broken wrist.

I think you'll be fine with this little phobia of yours if you just spend some time with a good psychologist. A few months ago I used to be afraid of text messaging while I was driving drunk at night on wet roads at one and a half times the speed limit. Just five sessions and I'm totally OK with it now.

And if that doesn't sound like a plan and you're STILL suffering from this irrational fear...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release Image
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
The solution is SO SIMPLE. Like if you're driving down a big mountain on a steep winding road and you're afraid to take a hand off the steering wheel to downshift... just ride the brakes. You'll be fine. And even if you're not there are probably a couple of runaway truck ramps along the way down.

And these guys are USHGA certified INSTRUCTORS - hell, Ryan's the son of a Towing Committee Chairman and Jim was an Aerotow Administrator - so you know you can trust anything they say.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559
Protow vs. weaklink
Bart Doets - 2005/02/21 10:00:43 UTC

If you use a protow as Davis described in OzReport, and put a weaklink on one side, I was wondering...
First, the weaklink should be half the breaking strength used normally; since the towline force is divided over two ends of the protow.
But, there will be a lot of difference in loading on the weaklink depending on where you are in relation to the tug's path. If you are off to the side where the weaklink is, chances are it breaks (too) easily; off to the other side, it may not break at all.
What good is a weaklink then?
Davis Straub - 2005/02/21 10:44:27 UTC

Actually

The force on the weaklink is equal to the force on the tow line divided in half further divided by the cosine of the (angle between the two legs of the protow line divided in half). So as I wrote in a message recently:

Let's do a little calculation to look at the hypothetical (totally hypothetical) tow pressures on a weaklink connected to the end of a protow bridle.

Angle 120 force 300 half force 150 150 resultant 300 300

Let's say the force is 300 lbs (foot-lbs). Let's say that the angle formed by the two legs of the protow bridle is 120 degrees (it is likely much less, but this is to illustrate a point). Then the resultant force on the weaklink is 300 lbs.
Paris wrote:At Quest, for solo tows, we use two strands (one loop) of a 130. Lb line on one end of a v-bridle, with the knots "buried" to try to remove them from the equation. You'd think this would allow for nearly 520 lb. Of actual tow force, though I never personally measured it and would guess that it's significantly less than this.
Indeed, in this case it only allows 260 pounds.

If the angle between the legs of the bridle is 60 degrees instead of 120 (totally depends on the length of the legs), then the force on the weaklink is 173 pounds (assuming a 300 pound tow line force).

Or, a 260 pound weaklink can handle 450 pounds of tow forces.

Cool, eh?
Davis Straub - 2005/02/21 12:52:23 UTC

Lockout

Bart asks: What good is a weaklink then?

A weaklink does nothing for you in lockout, as we already established.
Davis Straub - 2005/02/22 02:59:56 UTC

Angles

I'm doing the math now for the case of the tow rope off at an angle. It depends on the length of the protow.

Out soon.
If you use a protow as Davis described in OzReport, and put a weaklink on one side, I was wondering...
Yeah Bart, THERE'S a capital idea if ever I heard one - use something as DAVIS describes. And just put a weak link on ONE side. If you put weak links on BOTH sides you'd blow off at only half the tension. Or twice the tension. I don't know - it's too confusing. But it certainly couldn't be good or Davis would be doing it.
First, the weaklink should be half the breaking strength used normally...
Define "normally". Where are you placing it, what's your glider, what's your flying weight, what's the weak link's strength, and why are you using that strength?
But, there will be a lot of difference in loading on the weaklink depending on where you are in relation to the tug's path. If you are off to the side where the weaklink is, chances are it breaks (too) easily; off to the other side, it may not break at all.
Right... When you're significantly off to the left the tension on the left side of your bridle goes to double while the right side goes slack - and vice versa. I can see where this could be a real problem with respect to weak link selection.

We non professionals who tow two point have EXACTLY the same problem with our vertically aligned bridles. We get below the tug and all the tension goes to the pilot. We get high and we're effectively towing off just the keel. Probably not a great idea to be towing just off the keel, right Bart?
What good is a weaklink then?
And how many decades have you been towing hang gliders?
Let's do a little calculation to look at the hypothetical (totally hypothetical) tow pressures...
Yeah, Davis - tow PRESSURES.
Let's say the force is 300 lbs (foot-lbs).
I thought we were talking about pressure - not torque. So shouldn't we be measuring this in pounds per square inch?
Paris wrote:At Quest, for solo tows, we use two strands (one loop) of a 130. Lb line on one end of a v-bridle, with the knots "buried" to try to remove them from the equation. You'd think this would allow for nearly 520 lb. Of actual tow force, though I never personally measured it and would guess that it's significantly less than this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.
http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ
Quest Air

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions
Davis Straub - 2011/04/05 14:00:25 UTC

The flight park procedures here at Quest Air are the result of years of evolutionary pressures and experience that provide the focus on safety. The practices here illustrate what is important.

The weaklink strength...
Right, Davis. Neither you nor any of these other Quest assholes has the slightest fucking clue what the strengths of these things are, what the function is supposed to be, or that different gliders have different flying weights. But after untold foot-pounds of evolutionary pressures all you Darwin Award competitors have arrived at one-size-fits-all one G perfection.
Indeed, in this case it only allows 260 pounds.
Or - if you've actually bothered to test the fucking weak link - half that. But, close enough, either way it puts all solo gliders at one G.
If the angle between the legs of the bridle is 60 degrees instead of 120 (totally depends on the length of the legs), then the force on the weaklink is 173 pounds (assuming a 300 pound tow line force).
Great! Except...

- The apex angle of a one point bridle is typically gonna be ten degrees or less.

- The towline tension between a 914 Dragonfly with the turbocharger kicked in and a double surface solo is gonna by about five pounds over half that.

- WHEN the towline tension DOES bounce up to 300 pounds - which for me would be a whopping 0.94 Gs - the towline tension would actually have been zero - starting about forty pounds ago - which for me would be a whopping 0.81 Gs - 'cause none of you shitheads ever actually tested a loop of 130 pound Greenspot.

- After you do the trig to figure the load on a one point bridle end when the apex angle is ten degrees and the tow tension is 300 you get 150.57 (foot-)pounds - instead of the 150.00 you would if you just divided by two.
Or, a 260 pound weaklink can handle 450 pounds of tow forces.

Cool, eh?
Cool? Hell - TOTALLY AWESOME DUDE!!! Just a few TINY little problems...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

From section 3.4 of the 1999 HGFA Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependant on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately. 175 kg for tandem operations).

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
- Like I said, none of you fucking shitheads has ever actually tested a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron TOLLING line. And if you had you'd have found out that it's only a 130 pound weak link (before the cart starts rolling - after that it can be and frequently is a 75). So on the end of a one point bridle you're only maxing out at 259 pounds. But hey, no problem. We're only talking a factor of two here - how important could THAT be?

- And if you put it on the end of a TWO point bridle - like a lot of the non professionals do - which actually DOES have a sixty degree apex angle - you're down to 226 pounds. That for me translates to 0.70 Gs and forces me far below the 1.0 HGFA shitheads are RECOMMENDING.

- The HGFA shitheads haven't said anything about who RECOMMENDED one G or why.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
A weaklink does nothing for you in lockout, as we already established.
But you shitheads are gonna keep mandating 130 pound Greenspot to prevent the next Robin Strid anyway - aren't you?
Angles

I'm doing the math now for the case of the tow rope off at an angle. It depends on the length of the protow.

Out soon.
Let's see... It's been over half a dozen years now - how's that coming? It took me about three or four years to calculate that it has no effect whatsoever. Coulda been less but I did it in both pounds per square inch and foot-pounds to make absolutely sure. But you wanna check my numbers before I submit it as my doctoral thesis?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21465
Wish it had been the downtubes
Boy Oyng - 2011/04/09 22:06:36 UTC

Wish it had been the downtubes
I wish it had been the basetube - on which you were flying.
This is a report of an accident...
Nope.
...that occurred in February of 2010. I'm not going to name names or even the place where the accident happened. I want to speculate freely (and do some whining) without having to concern myself with anyone's reputation.
Which leaves other students wide open getting THEIR arms destroyed.
Brief description of accident:
Nope.
I was a student...
Right. You were a STUDENT.
...attempting a footlaunch tow on a winch system.
Why? Was it necessary for the purpose of the exercise to foot launch? Did circumstances preclude use of a dolly? If you had to do it over again would you have used a dolly?
I had wheels on the control bar.
Kinda depends on how one defines "wheels".
The protocol for this towing system is to signal that one is ready for the tow,
How do you know you're ready for tow? Are you hooked in? Got your leg loops? Are you sure? When was the last time you checked? How did you check? What's your signal?
...to resist being pulled by the line until that's no longer possible, then to walk, jog, and run until becoming airborne.
Yeah, a nice safe GRADUAL TRANSITION to tow. Avoid pop starts at all costs - they're known to deprive the pilot of control.
I...
...assumed I was hooked in and...
...signaled my readiness to begin the tow,
...the winch driver assumed I was hooked in,
the motor revved, the line became taught,
Taut. There wasn't a whole lot of stuff becoming taught here.
...and I began the walk, jog, run. On this occasion, I seemed to gain no altitude after becoming airborne. I estimate that I was never more than a few feet off the ground, and did not have the altitude to attempt to land on my feet.
That's alright. Nobody EVER has enough altitude to land on his feet.
The tow was aborted...
***WHY?***
- WHO aborted it? You or your "instructor"?
- If the latter and it needed to be aborted why didn't you abort it?
- What would've happened in the opposite scenario?
...and I came in for a wheel landing. Instead of rolling,
Instead of CLIMBING - as per the agreed upon FLIGHT PLAN.
...however, the wheels grabbed into the ground.
Which wouldn't have been anywhere nearby if this asshole had done his fucking job.
The glider stopped instantly, but I kept going, with both arms outstretched in anticipation of the roll-out. After the impact, it was immediately obvious that my right humerus was broken, and I also had significant pain in my left elbow. It turned out later that my humerus had basically exploded and that part of my left elbow joint was pulverized (the medical term, I learned, is "comminuted.")

Pilot background:

Student pilot returning to sport after decade-plus absence, working to regain H2 rating. Glider was an 11 Meter Pulse. Although this was my first tow of the day, it was to be my 7th or 8th tow overall. It was my second tow on this glider. All my prior tows had been on a Falcon. This was my first tow attempt with a new (used) Tracer harness. My only prior experience with that harness (or any cocoon...
Pod.
...harness) was one day practicing on the bunny hill. In fact, it was to be only my second day of flying that particular glider (I had owned an 11 Meter Pulse in my prior hang gliding experience). I'm 6'3" and weighed about 200 pounds at the time.

Conditions:

Winds almost nonexistent, but I was facing into whatever wisps there were. Temperature (if I recall correctly) was in the sixties. The day was clear, though it was following some days of rain, so the ground was moist.
None of that is particularly relevant to the issue.
Conjecture as to cause:
There's no need whatsoever to conjecture as to the cause. This one's pretty black and white.
I find this kind of interesting to think about. At first, I wondered, "Why didn't I gain altitude?... If only I'd gotten up in the air, this wouldn't have happened." But really, I might well have had a perfectly acceptable tow up and flight, only to misjudge my landing and end up on my wheels, in which case the same thing would very likely have happened.
- Again, I think we're playing a bit fast and loose with the term "wheels" here.
- So how badly would you have been hurt, in either scenario, if you had started and finished prone and on the basetube - with or without wheels?
I am not not sure why I didn't gain altitude.
Really? This one's a no brainer.
It is very possible I simply had the glider at the wrong attitude.
Nah.
That's what the instructor/tow operator told me: that I was pushing out.
The "instructor/tow operator" is TOTALLY full of shit.
My memory is that I pushed out because I wasn't gaining altitude.
Instinctive but not a great move on tow - despite the bullshit you read on Wallaby's website - especially if your driver's totally incompetent (which yours was). A whole bunch of people have died doing that - including one of our Region 9 Directors and his tandem clinic Hang Four student.
I thought, "I'm not gaining altitude, maybe I'm pulling in, so I'll let the bar out."
Nah. If the shithead at the other end of the rope had been doing his job you'd have been going up like a rocket no matter what you were doing.
I had had, if I recall correctly, two prior aborted tows on previous days. One of them was aborted because I had the glider at the wrong angle.
What do you mean "the wrong angle"? High or low? If it was too high and he reduced power you'd have been seriously stalled. If it was too low you'd have had real crisp airspeed and probably known what to do with it and there probably would've been no good reason to abort.
But the other, the tow operator told me, was because he hadn't applied enough power to the winch. From my beginner's perspective, they felt exactly the same;
Maybe that's 'cause they WERE exactly the same.
I just didn't go up.
No shit.
So, from my own perspective, it's equally likely that I goofed up, or the tow operator did, or both of us did. I don't know, and I wouldn't expect the operator to admit it if it was his fault considering the consequences. In any case, I know I pushed out some at the end, so certainly contributed to the situation.
Bullshit. There wouldn't have BEEN a situation if the fucking "instructor" had been doing his fucking job.
But, as I said above, it was really the wheels that turned (!?) what should have been a minor embarrassment into a bone-snapping disaster. And here, I believe that the instructor may share some culpability.
Share?
I had just recently purchased the glider, harness, and helmet from the instructor. As a re-training student, I definitely still needed wheels (indeed, I intended to use them FAR into the foreseeable future and was looking to purchase or make a pair).
Know what?
Dennis Pagen - 1991/01

Landings and probably bad landings will always be with us as long as we take to the sky and insist on using our feet as landing gear.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11946
Once again with wheels
Rich Jesuroga - 2008/05/19 17:49:23 UTC

A few years back a friend who had good landing skills missed ONE. Stuck his speed bar in the dirt and whacked hard. He swung through the control bar and hit the top of his helmet on the keel buckling his neck. He was a quadriplegic for eight months before committing suicide. Would wheels have worked? YES - no debate by those who were there and witnessed the accident.
There's NOBODY who EVER doesn't still need wheels.
Until the day of the incident, I had always used those large, rigid black wheels.
Sounds like Mike Robertson's.

That sonuvabitch did EXACTLY the same thing to me. 'Cept I dolly launched so had my hands on the basetube and it WAS the downtube (singular) and not my arm.

But this wasn't Mike 'cause he IS smart enough to put you ON a dolly and OFF OF your feet - and he'd have never had you on those wheels.
On this day, when I asked for wheels, the large wheels were not at hand, so the instructor handed me smaller, two-piece wheels that snap together over the control bar. I strongly believe that the combination of smaller wheel diameter, plus the break-apart nature of the wheels, plus the rain-softened ground is what caused the failure of the wheel to roll.
Do ya think?
I noticed after I was helped up that at least one of the wheels had separated. And I believe the instructor was more likely to know the conditions of the site and the suitability of the wheels for that ground.
These were sold as "snap-on" wheels. Everybody IMMEDIATELY started referring to them as "snap-offs". I used them as is for a while and they would pop off during hang checks and damn near every time the basetube went down when I landed (which was damn near every time I landed). Didn't take long before I put sheet metal screws through the "lock" tabs and used them as slide-ons instead of snap-ons. They were light and aerodynamic but it didn't take too hard of a landing to shatter them and they weren't cheap and I eventually said fuckit, put the Finsterwalder pneumatics on, and never looked back.
Am I saying "This is all the instructor's fault"? Absolutely not. I truly believe that the pilot is responsible for his/her own equipment and its operation. So, at the same time that I'm asking myself, "Why did he give me those wheels?", I'm also telling myself, "You should've held out for the larger wheels."
You should never have been put in that position.
But this leads to what I find an interesting philosophical discussion. The student/instructor relationship exists on trust.
In REAL aviation, maybe...
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
But in hang gliding there may be one or two of these motherfuckers that you can trust but you really can't afford to.
To some degree, the student must rely on the instructor's judgment, and yet instructors do make mistakes, and the instructor can only control so much.
Or, in this case, fuck up everything he touched. Let's shoot the goddam "instructor" and have a do over.

- You:
-- have the same background as before
-- live a million miles from nowhere in North Dakota
-- own the winch

- Your best buddy Bob - who knows nothing about hang gliding or towing beyond what you've told him - is gonna drive.

- You've ordered a pair of Robertson wheels but they didn't come in Friday's mail, and all you have is a pair of these snap-offs and the ground is wet and soft.

Do you head out or wait until next weekend?
Maybe my impact was harder because I pushed out at the end. Maybe the wheels would have rolled and held for a smaller, lighter pilot. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. The only time I would hold somebody else accountable for my own hang gliding accident is if they ran into me or didn't yield right of way on a ridge or some other gross violation.
Yeah, that's one HUGE reason why none of these assholes is ever sued or held accountable in any way and why lotsa this bullshit NEVER gets any better. These WERE gross violations. Pilots always have an ego/testosterone thing going in overdrive and ALWAYS blame themselves for WAY too much.
Nevertheless, I would hope in the future that the instructor won't give small wheels to big students on days when the ground is softer than usual!
What's the incentive? No skin off HIS nose. (Did he get paid before or after the "lesson"?) I would hope that in the future this "instructor" wouldn't be an instructor and find some niche in which he's not a direct threat to other people's lives and well-being.
We always talk about not working with more than one new thing at a time on a flight, but how is this realistic for a student? Everything is new to a student, even if he or she has some experience. For a student, the glider is new, the helmet is new, the harness is new, the sense of flight is new.
PRE CISELY. This "only one new thing at a time" bullshit is a bunch of crap that exists ONLY in hang gliding amongst people too fucking stupid to realize that it's better to swap out a shitrigged pair of wheels, shitrigged primary and secondary releases, and a shitrigged weak link all at once before you leave the setup area. And for the overwhelming majority of hang gliding people replacing one shitrigged piece of equipment once every twenty years still translates to way more anxiety than they can handle.
The only thing that was "first time" for me on this nonflight was using that harness in a tow situation, but everything else was still all new. And it seems unlikely (though not inconceivable) that the harness had anything to do with the accident.
Nah, go with inconceivable - likewise if you were wearing a different color T-shirt. (Many years ago I tried to get this concept through to Head Trauma but totally and obviously failed. (Nah, actually I instantly realized the guy was a total moron and didn't even try.))
OK, the lousy (for the conditions) snap-on wheels...
No. Stop at lousy. No asterisks.
...were also a first, but once they were on, it didn't matter if they were my first use or my thousandth. Although I knew that larger wheels are generally preferable, my experience was insufficient to recognize that these wheels were likely to fail in the soft-ground conditions of that site on that day. And frankly, I think it's very debatable to expect the instructor to think of that particular detail.
BULLSHIT. A goddam five year old kid with a little tricycle experience could seen that one coming a mile away.
Still, if I hold myself responsible for not knowing that, then the instructor also shares that responsibility.
It's not a case of SHARING. I don't care if you were a very current Hang Five learning to foot launch tow. This asshole was functioning as your instructor in this situation, he provided the equipment, it wasn't safe, it's totally his responsibility.
- You're paying John Heiney for an aerobatics clinic but you don't have a chute.
- He provides one for the day for an extra five bucks.
- You:
-- arrive, what you can see of it looks fine, you stuff it in your container
-- blow a maneuver and need it but it explodes 'cause it was a cheap uncertified knockoff from China
- John's fully responsible for what happens after that and a jury's gonna properly conclude so.
Maybe, however, this is purely and simply a case of "s**t happens." That's why they're called accidents.
NO. With the possible exception of thermal and shear induced tumbles, shit DOES NOT HAPPEN IN HANG GLIDING. There are NO ACCIDENTS. This sport is quite dangerous enough already without them.
Consequences:

Well, I've given up hang gliding for good. If I were the only one in the equation, I would continue (though probably not with the same instructor for reasons I'll mention below), but I have a wife and child. My wife already strongly disliked my involvement in this sport (in part because I'd already broken one arm pursuing it; that time was unequivocally my fault),
Wild guess... Landing with your hands on the downtubes?
and I simply won't subject her to any more stress and hardship worrying every weekend that she might get another one of "those calls." We don't get everything we want in life, and I'm choosing to give up my lifelong flight dream. And honestly, I think it's quite possible I just don't have the physical or intellectual skillset to be a safe pilot. I don't believe that's true, but I'd be crazy not to consider the possibility. You have two bone-breaking accidents, you're a fool not to wonder.
Yeah, people who have more than one bone breakers have absolutely no aptitude or business in the sport. So y'all FUCK OFF! As for the rest of you... Hop in the back of my Volkswagen Passat and let's DO IT!
Medically, I've got some very nice pieces of stainless steel in both arms, including a new radial head in my left elbow. I was very lucky to find myself in the hands of a superb surgeon this time around, so I have good use of both arms, and I can make some really great noises with my left elbow.

Finally, I admit I feel some bitterness toward the instructor/operator, completely separate from the accident itself. Even assuming this accident is entirely my fault, from tow flop to bone snap, the operator's behavior was, to my mind, amazingly callous. He drove me to the hospital, but I actually had to ask him to get out of the car to open the door for me and help me into the emergency reception area. When we got in and had made contact with the receptionist, he immediately said his goodbyes and his sympathetic tut-tuts and left. And that was it. Of course, he didn't know that I was actually losing a lot of blood internally from the injury to right humerus, that I nearly fainted from the reception area chair while waiting to be seen. But I guess that's my point; he didn't know. I'm not asking that he order in some flowers and candy from the gift shop for me. But I think he should have waited at least long enough to get me seated, and maybe - stretching it - until he saw me get pulled into the emergency room proper. There was only one other person waiting But there was money to be made back on the field, I guess. Needless to say, there was basically no follow up from him to see how I was doing, or to learn what the consequences were. I'd disrupted business.

OK... I'd like to end on a more positive note...

I realize that the severe consequences of this accident (and indeed, of my first one, which was surprisingly similar in that a wheel caught and stopped the glider;
Big surprise. Notice the pattern? You're ONLY breaking arms when your hands are on the downtubes.
but I still take full blame for that one) were flukes.
Doug Hildreth - 1990/03

We all know that our new gliders are more difficult to land. We have been willing to accept this with the rationalization that it is the unavoidable consequence of higher performance. But I see my job as a responsibility to challenge acceptance and rationalization. From my perspective, what I see in the landing zone and what I see in the statistics column is not acceptable. Crashes on landing are causing too many bent downtubes, too many minor injuries and too many serious or fatally injured pilots.

So what are we going to do? One reply is, "We should teach all those bozos how to land properly." Well, we've been trying that approach for the past few years and it has NOT worked!
THESE ARE *NOT* FLUKES. Fixed wing aircraft are NOT suited to landing this way. And you're moving twenty miles an hour low off the ground with your body, hands, and arms configured such that if (WHEN) the glider stops abruptly you're BEGGING to snap, shatter, and/or dislocate something.
I - and lots of other beginners, as well as experienced pilots - have had worse landings with no such dire aftermath. If I believe (as I do) that the harsh consequences of my two accidents are fluky bad luck, then I MUST also acknowledge that when I escaped unharmed from similar incidents that I've been the recipient of GOOD luck. As pilots, especially as student pilots, luck IS an element in every flight.
As it is in every drive to the grocery store. But out in the REAL world we have sane training and procedures, engineering, laws, cops, and prisons that tend to take the luck element pretty far out of the equation.
If fortune favors the well-prepared, then ill-fortune prefers the ill-prepared. So, when you pilots screw up, even a seemingly mild whack, and you come away from it unscathed, do yourselves a favor: make sure you say, Wow! I had some good luck THAT time. You can get away with bad habits over and over again until you believe you don't need luck.
Or you can do what a lot of people have done and properly identify the bad habit which, in this case, is to opt for a ridiculously difficult and dangerous landing technique EVERY TIME over an infinitely easier and safer one.
Forget that attitude. If you screw up and walk away with a chuckle and maybe a downtube repair bill, you have just escaped a nursing home by the skin of your teeth. Absorb that fact. In the big scheme of things, my injuries were trivial, but I can tell you that seven days in a nursing home waiting for somebody to come along and feed you or take you to the toilet and wipe you clean is seven days you wish you were learning other life lessons about vanity and humility.

So, do serious work on avoiding that screw up again. My accidents were NOT the result of luck, nor in either case were they egregious examples of incompetence;
Yes they were - but in both cases your instructors'.
only their relatively harsh consequences were unlucky. As pilots, you can hope for good luck, but you must count on bad luck. Minimize the role of luck in every flight as much as possible.

OK, that's it. I bid you all farewell, safe habits, and rational self assessments. I've enjoyed lurking here over the years.

Bruce

P.S. If anybody wants a barely-used Charly Insider full face helmet with visor, I'll sell you mine for $200. It didn't absorb any impact in my crash except the volley of cusswords that blasted out of my gullet after I realized I'd busted myself.
Why don't you lurk over here for a while? Then maybe sometime in the future you can get back into hang gliding while pretending to be Chris Starbuck each flight from the moment you get on the dolly or clear the ramp until the moment you stop rolling.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21465
Wish it had been the downtubes
Davis Straub - 2011/04/11 15:45:55 UTC

The clip together wheels totally suck, as you found out, and should never have been used. It is the instructor's responsibility to have safe equipment and he was derelict in his duties to even have those wheels available.
Yeah, tell 'em, Davis. I feel your moral outrage.

Any comment on these scumbags who flood the market with shitrigged bent pin releases and lock down threads and ban people when too many questions start getting asked?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21465
Wish it had been the downtubes
Jason Rogers - 2011/04/10 04:04:25 UTC
Port Macquarie, New South Wales

Hmmm...

I was taught to land on my feet from the very first day. Wheels might save your bacon, (or they might not as in this case) but if you end up on the wheels, that's a crash.

I strongly disagree with the current style of teaching people that landing on wheels is a perfectly acceptable way of landing a hang glider.

=:)
Et tu, Jason?

I was taught on the very first day - by Chad Elchin - that a loop of 130 pound Greenspot blew at 260 pounds and on one end of a bridle that translated to a lot of stress on the equipment, so we dare not go higher under any circumstances. And I hate to tell you how many years it took before my brain started kicking back in.

So if you end up on the wheels it's a crash...

- So every landing that Chris Starbuck has made since whenever in the Seventies is a crash. I must - in all good conscience - break the news to him but I'm not looking forward to it. And it just doesn't seem fair - considering our relative downtube records.

- And every tandem landing I ever saw at Ridgely was a crash. I sure hope the lawyers don't get ahold of that one. Seems a bit odd though 'cause when people were bored I never saw them watching the tandem gliders come in.
Ryan Voight - 2011/04/10 04:28:30 UTC

But whenever I say things like that I get accused of stirring the pot.
Good. There does seem to be a little intelligent life out there after all.
JJ Coté - 2011/04/11 02:31:34 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts

I also say that (as a person who doesn't know a damn thing about towing), I don't understand the bit about not being high enough to land on your feet. I'm not saying that it wasn't the case, just that I don't understand how this works. It seems like if you were starting off on your feet, you already had enough altitude to flare, but maybe you actually dropped lower before the tow was aborted?
Maybe he was pushed out waiting for the asshole on the other end to give him the gas he needed to effect the agreed upon flight plan but the asshole on the other end did just the opposite - leaving him in mush mode with a lot of ground speed and no way in hell to stop the glider safely on his feet.
My feeling about wheels is that they're a great thing to have, but never rely on them to work.
Yeah, there are so very few aircraft that have wheels and rely on them to work.
I would always assume that they're going to stick, and be glad that they didn't if that has to be tested.
Whereas whenever you opt to land on your feet you can be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAIN that everything's gonna turn out great!
There are always rocks and holes out there that can grab a wheel.
How very odd. I flew a lot of XC for a lot of years and there were NEVER any rocks or holes capable of grabbing a wheel in ANY of the fields I came down in.

Where exactly are you doing your landings and how come these rocks and holes that are so prone to grabbing wheels are apparently incapable of breaking ankles?
Kind of like a parachute, be sure to have it, but do everything you can to not have to find out whether it will work.
Yeah, they're like a parachute. Never consider using them unless you're in a situation in which all hope of flying out of a situation is gone, the alternative is certain death, and your odds of coming out alive ain't all that great anyway.

And ALWAYS do EVERYTHING you can to avoid finding out if a pair of wheels will work when you need them to - keep struggling to the bitter end. Sure, Lauren ripped her arm out of her shoulder trying to keep off the wheels - but at least she's alive. God only knows what would've happened if she had thrown in the towel a couple of seconds earlier and rolled or bellied in.

And how long ago did something resembling Homo sapiens to invent the wheel? No, can't trust the wheel - don't know WHAT might happen. And the lever... Don't like the looks of that straight one - better use a bent one just in case.

I wonder if it would be possible to slow the decline of glider pilot intelligence by splicing in a little garden slug DNA.
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