So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
Anyway, in both scenarios you'd probably be worse off upright. Your arms and shoulders would have to be stronger than the down tubes, your legs would contact the ground first. I think in general your best chance of walking away from a crash is to stay prone, tuck in your arms and let the glider and its wheels take the impact.
Somebody else knows about letting go of the glider (letting go of the downtubes)
Wheels work well on Heavenly Acres but the prudent pilot will know how to foot land safely when the occasion calls for it.
For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
...telling somebody you've got to hook in. Period.
4. The best way to AVOID a crash is to not move your hands to the fuckin' downtubes in the first place.
5. You put your hands on the downtubes you've greatly compromised control, you take them off whatever tube or tubes you have them on you've totally abdicated control, and REAL pilots don't ever ever compromise control at critical stages of flight or stop flying the plane until it's stopped.
6. The place to have the GREATEST probability of surviving an airliner crash is in an aisle seat in the back row bent fully at the waist staring at the floor with one's hands on one's ankles.
7. The place to have the LEAST probability of surviving an airliner crash is in the cockpit sitting upright looking at the runway with one's hands on the control yoke and throttle and feet on the rudder pedals. But that's also the place that gives someone the greatest probability of PREVENTING an airliner crash.
8. So pick one. Run the math on the numbers involved in SURVIVING versus PREVENTING crashes and get back to me.
Wheels work well on Heavenly Acres but the prudent pilot will know how to foot land safely when the occasion calls for it.
1. A "safe" foot landing is an oxymoron - times ten in a wheels hostile environment.
2. If foot landings could be executed safely and consistently there wouldn't be endless cycles of hundred post foot landing threads wasting bandwidth on all the forums.
3. Prudent pilots don't put themselves into situations that call for the mythical safe foot landing.
1. I notice it seems to be a lot easier for you to find photos of heart attacks waiting to happen on couches than photos or videos of people landing in wheel unfriendly environments.
2. That photo was a dodge from the issue I raised.
3. Greg DeWolf is one of those prudent pilots who made a habit of standup tandem landings at an aerotow park (Manquin - read "putting green") and it cost him a broken arm.
4. Yeah, you can find tons of photos and videos of people doing clean, textbook, flawless standup landings.
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...the most common hang gliding injury is a spiral fracture of the humerus.
- Just like you can find tons of videos of people recovering from standard aerotow weak link blows as if they were the nonevents everybody is programmed to believe they are. But every now and then...
My H2 instructor, Alan at Kin. He gave me a very hard time working with me to get my launches consistent and safe. And for landing he taught me something akin to Jim Roomey's (sp) zen technique.
I think you mean "Rooney", unless you're referring to the hollow space inside Jim's empty head then that would be "roomy".
Tad wrote:1. I notice it seems to be a lot easier for you to find photos of heart attacks waiting to happen on couches than photos or videos of people landing in wheel unfriendly environments.
2. That photo was a dodge from the issue I raised.
One of the recurring themes in this thread, (we will touch upon recurring themes later in this thread) is that wheel landings are less risky than stand up landings. The photo goes right along with this logic. It is even less risk to lay, chilling on the couch than to do a stand up landing in a hang glider.
Tad wrote:3. Greg DeWolf is one of those prudent pilots who made a habit of standup tandem landings at an aerotow park (Manquin - read "putting green") and it cost him a broken arm.
Tandems with non pilot passengers should be landed on wheels. Flaring with two bodies requires the utmost in coordination. It can be done but in the interest of passenger saftey, wheels are the better option in this case.
Tad wrote:4. Yeah, you can find tons of photos and videos of people doing clean, textbook, flawless standup landings.
Probably because standup landings are not hard to do.
Tad wrote:- That doesn't change the fact that...
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...the most common hang gliding injury is a spiral fracture of the humerus.
Another recurring theme.
First let us consider the source of this quote.
Jim Rooney.
Is he an expert authority on the subject? Is he an expert authority in any subject? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion
Put up some authenticated numbers or an authenticated analysis and I will believe you.
Otherwise:
Tad wrote:- Just like you can find tons of videos of people recovering from standard aerotow weak link blows as if they were the nonevents everybody is programmed to believe they are. But every now and then...
Sailplane people practice rope breaks in all situations. If you cannot quickly recite the protocal to the instructor, you must leave the cockpit and go sit awhile, until you can recite it. Then you actually do it. They release the rope and you land the glider. I have done it.
Contrast this with a hg tow operation. You do as the tow operator tells you. Typically, they tow steeply at a rate a little above stall. Rope or weaklink breaks and the glider STALLS. Every f*ing time.
If you are lucky, you do not hit the ground too hard. If you are not lucky, they say, "he died doing what he loved".
Tow at a faster, less steep rate and weaklink breaks are a non event.
Towing in strong turbulent conditions can break even one of your divine weaklinks. The devil has very strong mojo.
It is even less risk to lay, chilling on the couch than to do a stand up landing in a hang glider.
- In the short term, yeah. But you look down the road a few years and you've gotta factor in things like cirrhosis of the liver, heart disease, diabetes, suicide. So it's a pretty safe bet that Paul and Ryan Voight will have longer healthier lives than this guy.
- I don't wanna discuss not committing aviation. This forum is geared for people who wanna commit as much aviation as possible for as long as possible. And the best way to do that is to commit it with maximum degrees of competence and responsibility and a minimum degree of risk.
Flaring with two bodies requires the utmost in coordination.
So does flaring with one body under the glider in dead and light switchy conditions. That's why when you go to The Davis Show:
about the first thing you see is an 18 page 175 post sticky with, at the moment, 27230 hits on the subject which NMERider has condemned as being pretty much useless out in the real world.
It can be done but in the interest of passenger saftey, wheels are the better option in this case.
Wheels are the better option in ANY case with a safe landing surface - 'cept maybe soft sand.
Probably because standup landings are not hard to do.
- You can find tons of shots like THIS:
on the web. They're up there because they're EXTRAORDINARILY hard to do - and have high rates of failure, often catastrophic, even amongst the top dozen most skilled performers in the world.
- Standup landings are hard to do. And both surviving partners of the world's largest glider manufacturer...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...say so in no uncertain terms.
First let us consider the source of this quote.
For most of the stuff we need to talk about in this game we don't need to - and shouldn't - consider sources 'cause we can do the math to confirm or discredit.
What he's best at, however, is exploiting the unfathomable ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence of the hang gliding population to mask his own unfathomable ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence and worm his way into positions of control and authority.
Put up some authenticated numbers...
HOW?
We've got a national organization that's spent the past four decades perfecting the arts of shielding itself from accountability and conning the public into believing that this game is no more dangerous than badminton. And we've got the flight parks, schools, and instructors whose failures to adhere to safe practices, established standards, guidelines, SOPs, federal regulations writing the reports when the crash is so publicly spectacular that it can't be swept under the rug.
...or an authenticated analysis and I will believe you.
- You believe whatever the fuck you want but we've got cubic miles of anecdotal data that this is, in fact, the case.
You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
statement are when the glider stops suddenly and you don't?
- Let's take a look at a couple of quotes from two of our current twenty-two activated members here:
I broke my humerus (badly) in 1989, with nerve damage.
Zack C - 2009/03/07
I ended up with nearly identical fractures to both humeri (upper arms) but no radial nerve damage (allowing full use of my fingers).
- What's you're point anyway? That people breaking arms as a consequence of standup landing efforts isn't the problem it's cracked up to be?
Otherwise:
So what's YOUR candidate for the most common hang gliding injury? All those broken legs we're seeing after people rotate upright so their heads don't hit first?
Sailplane people practice rope breaks in all situations.
No they don't. Students practice rope breaks only after an instructor who knows there are generous safety margins in the situation pulls the release. Otherwise THIS:
And what we have in hang gliding is a total fucking Dr. Trisa Tilletti engineered joke:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow
05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
Yeah. That's where we need to be able to handle Trisa Link blows. At fifteen hundred feet in smooth air where you can pass the requirement with your eyes closed and your arms crossed across your chest. Let's brainwash everybody into believing that:
- weak link blows are no big fucking deals;
- they'll be able to handle them no matter what; and
- Tad's full of shit when he calls for weak links up in the legal range.
That was fun! Let's use even LIGHTER weak links so we have even MORE fun!
Note that:
- That Lookout tandem trainer isn't:
-- actually equipped with any weak links because the instructors want to take as little chance as possible of any unexpected fun happening when THEY'RE on board.
-- equipped with the only two point release they sell to their customers which "works better than all cable releases that we have experience with."
- They're landing on wheels.
I have done it.
Great! When everything's orchestrated under carefully controlled conditions this stuff's a blast!
Now tell me what you'd have done different from what Zack Marzec did Saturday afternoon. Let go of the downtubes and balled up just before impact?
Contrast this with a hg tow operation. You do as the tow operator tells you.
Fuck that. Competent pilots DO NOT tow with incompetent tow operators. Towing hang gliders is INHERENTLY dangerous and you can't afford to throw an asshole or two into the equation to trim your safety margins any more before you get started.
Typically, they tow steeply at a rate a little above stall.
Bullshit.
On aerotow you WANT to come of the cart well before the Dragonfly - which is probably the slowest tug out there - comes off the ground and you hafta do some serious pulling in to stay in position until he rotates. And he typically doesn't give a rat's ass what you're doing back there as long as it doesn't compromise his control - which it never does anyway as long as he's got an engine.
And I think I can make an educated guess that a platform driver will do whatever speed and tension setting you ask for. And you can come off a platform without even being hooked up to the winch and make a good climb, recovery, and landing.
Stationary winch... Even if you've got some total fucking douchebag like Mike Robertson who doesn't give you any power and then...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...abruptly chops it just to be on the safe side you're not gonna fall very far if you haven't done anything too stupid on your end. And if you realize in time that the guy's a total fucking douchebag you can just keep it pulled in enough to stay within a couple of inches of the surface.
Rope or weaklink breaks and the glider STALLS.
- There ARE no rope breaks in aerotowing. Reasons... They:
-- use two thousand pound Spectra
-- force everybody up using chintzy pieces of fishing line at both ends
- Just about everybody who works any length of time at a tow operation is a highly skilled flyer - 'cause it doesn't take any brains to become a highly skilled flyer so even someone like Rooney or Lauren has a shot.
- So - eliminating worn out surface towlines, Hewett Links, drivers keen to make good decisions in the interest of your safety, and releases that stink on ice from the equations - you've got reasonably good control over your destiny.
If you are lucky, you do not hit the ground too hard.
I don't do luck.
I'm a PILOT. Zack Marzec was just some bozo gambling that the fishing line at both ends of the operation would hold every flight - and that if it didn't his situation wouldn't be too compromised for him to deal with it. His LUCK ran out Saturday afternoon.
If you are not lucky, they say, "he died doing what he loved".
That's why they invented theory, physics, engineering, and standards.
Tow at a faster, less steep rate and weaklink breaks are a non event.
Bullshit. A power failure on takeoff is NEVER a nonevent - and if you have them at frequent intervals and fly often/long enough you WILL get bit.
Towing in strong turbulent conditions can break even one of your divine weaklinks.
- Free flying in strong turbulent conditions can tumble your glider.
- But instances of gliders getting tumbled below five hundred feet are nonexistent.
- The weak links that are getting broken in strong turbulent conditions are the ones some asshole expects to break as early as possible in lockout situations.
- REAL weak links don't break until gliders are late into lockouts well after the tow's been declared dead.
- I've been hit by about as violent a lockout as you're ever gonna hear about and my finger was on the trigger...
There's another option for the eight inch pneumatic wheels that adds ~$30 to the total cost. Wills Wing makes a machined aluminum hub that does not rotate against the control bar the way the plastic hub with plastic bushings will. The hub is bored eccentric in order to allow a tunnel for a VG rope to pass through for their round aluminum speed bar option. These hubs are fixed in place with a small set screw and are extremely high quality. The downside is that it's best to leave the wheels attached. This means you need to stow the control bar/wheel assembly separately when transporting and storing your gear.
The plus side is these hubs don't move from side to side or mar your control bar. The anodizing is very hard and so you can use a good dry lubricant on the aluminum hubs to keep the wheels rolling freely. I land on this setup as I am recovering from an ankle injury:
The Whoosh wheels are nice because you can buy the hubs that fit the WW aluminum speedbar if you ever move up to a Sport 2 for instance. However, landing on such skinny tread wheels can have serious consequences if you hit a soft patch and they dig in.
Either way, you are generally (but not always) safer to have the wheels than not. Whatever you decide to do, please build your landing skills to the point that you don't need your wheels.
In my opinion - you are far safer with the eight inch pneumatics in New England whether you buy them with the plastic hubs or machined aluminum.
If you really care about your vanity then stick your landings regardless of what you fly. There's nothing prettier than a well-executed landing at the end of each flight.
!
