instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I figured you'd have fun with this...
Stop, you're spoiling me. I need a challenge every now and then to stay on top of my game.
...a local comp pilot.
That's a bit of a challenge...

Can't spell, can't run spell checks, doesn't proofread, crappy grammar, no clues as to the purpose of a weak link and breaking strength of a loop of 130, no concept of Gs, doesn't know the difference between a release and a weak link, flies one point with a Bailey on one shoulder and THE weak link on the other, total idiot... Not much to go on with any of that - field's still pretty much wide open.

I've been kicked off of Houston so I can't search.

Hafta go with Houston area, comp pilot, knows Corina, real high on the hook-in weight range.

I'll keep looking for clues.
Weak links break for a reason, usually pilot error.
Not much argument with that - 'cept it's a lot closer to always and he means DURING the flight.

Compare/contrast to Tost's take on the issue:
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
TOTAL: 365 lbs
0.7 Gs - BEFORE the Greenspot starts degrading under the stress of towing. Amazing that his cart even starts rolling.
No one should ever consider using more than a single loop of the 130 lb braded dacron unless you are flying tandem!
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/25 18:45:19 UTC

Brian, this discussion to me is only relevant for one scenario. Big guys, the major target group of Tad's futile efforts, with greenspot weak links entering a high line tension lockout and not releasing. I don't give a rat's ass about anything else that could and might and will likely never. So, in that particular scenario, Brian or Jim, if you were in my shoes, would you want something that breaks at 0.8 G, 1+ G or 1.4+ G? If I get an answer to that question from either one of you I will gladly leave this discussion and wait for something new to debate you guys on.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Plain and simple. Janni, 1G, but please stay.
USHGA

The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.
The 130 lb test line breaks soon enough for light pilots, and holds long enough for heavy pilots. Sort of like aspirin, everybody takes two.
Not even worth the effort.
The 130# stuff breaks when is supposed to...
...before you can get into too much trouble.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28641
Weak links in towing paragliders with pay out winch
Mads Syndergaard - 2009/12/01 18:21:18 UTC

We did use weaklinks just when we started towing in Denmark some eighteen years ago. We had several incidents that could have been accidents due to weak links breaking right after launch, and stopped using them.

When towing static line with moving vehicles we still have them (we use the same as the hang gliders) but it seems to me these must be really strong because I have never seen one break. I'm against weaklinks for paragliders if they are 'weak' enough to break when 'needed' - it seems they cause more danger than they solve.
Also, the 130# line is well proven as is has been in use for at least the last 13 years.
And well proven Wallaby and Bailey releases have been killing people for even longer.
Pilots as light as Corina to as heavy as me use the 130# IGFA line as a weak link.
And even heavier AND stupider. They also use Bailey releases and get awesome climb rates under cumulonimbus clouds - but that doesn't necessarily mean they should.
I believe that the HGFA has even specified this material for use in their towing standards.
No...
HGFA - 1999/06

The system must include a weak link which is infallible and will automatically release the glider from the tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limits of safe operation.

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g.
...despite the fact that they're Hewett plagiarizing total morons too.
If you need more proof, maybe try wanging yourself off the tow line one day to prove to yourself that it works.
And to get a realistic idea of how much good it'll do you when they're keeping score maybe try a live fire exercise wanging yourself off the towline at seventy-five feet. (I left out the "one day" part 'cause that pretty much goes without saying.)
I once heard him verbally state that "people who break weak links don't know what the fuck they're doing". I found it surprising given his weight...
Sorry Zack, I'm in TOTAL agreement with him on this one.
Maybe you CAN reduce the odds of breaking these weak links by the way you fly.
Yeah, you CAN also reduce the odds of the in-flight failures of bent downtubes by the way you fly - especially if you stick to sled conditions, fly slowly, and only make shallow turns.

Try this experiment...

- Produce a two hundred square foot bladewing.

- Train an isolated population of students and tell them all on Day One that this size and design was proven over many years to be the safest all around bird for all pilots.

- See how many runts you can crash before anyone would BEGIN to question the validity of the assumption.

You can probably go forever just by telling a runt with a broken downtube or arm that his control inputs simply weren't aggressive enough.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=1245
bad tow
T.B. - 2007/01/17 03:08:33 UTC

OK..As an aerotow pilot i had one really bad tow...(thought i'd share it and see if i'm not alone)..
Fear not.
Just got my new glider..(Horizon ET April 2005)..Started flying in 2004 at Hang Glide Chicago (Arlan Birkett..Instructor....Some of you may have known him)
...speaking of really bad tows.
Anyway the glider was a brand new model.(Arlan had placed the order before it was released by North Wing)...When it finaly showed up Arlan flew it a couple of times to find the tow point on it , after that i flew it a few times in smooth air (not a problem)
Did Arlan also check the reflex bridle adjustment? (Just kidding.)
So then i take it up mid day and had fantastic flights (hour long ...first flight 5 miles out and return)..But then one week later , I set up and get ready to take a tow in the morning , At this point i haven't really used my VG as it was something i could mess with later after i got a good feel for the wing , I set up the glider as i have done before , but on the gliders down tube
the VG line is routed through ruber back end of the down tube , this i've noticed before and so i wraped my release velcro on loosely (otherwise you can't use the VG).
Good move. You never can tell when your life might depend upon your ability to use your VG at an aerotow park.
I get the glider set up as allways, put it on the dolly, got in my harness,hooked up to the tug and gave the magic words GO GO GO ....We took off, lifted off the dolly and started following the tug up...at around 200 ft i noticed that the glider wasn't climbing very good (tug too high and i don't have the bar pulled in at all)
At Hang Glide Chicago?!?!?! NO WAY!!! (Lemme guess... Same asshole who's gonna kill Arlan and Jeremiah in less than five months?)
I decided to stick with the tow anyway , at around 700 ft i decide to push out and see if i can get it to climb..
http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHGA - 2006/03/15

Safety Notice

If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 feet). The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.
But don't worry... You're flying a solo so WHEN your glider "becomes unattached" during this maneuver your airspeed will go UP.
...(we used a Kolb not a Dragon Fly) at the same time the tug is turning sharply left , no climb ,no responce to roll the glider decides to bank hard right on it's own,,(i am high up on the left)
Great job, Tuggie! Did your mirror fall off right after takeoff? Or do you just not give a flying fuck about anything?
Image I reach to hit the release and accidently push the release on the outside of the down tube...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218
rules
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC

I called Tad, and as I told him, I do not wish to file an incident report, because what Dustin and I did -- putting me low and slow and below the plane -- was a normal training exercise, to insure that I will not endanger passengers.
..."shit" at this point i was at a bank angle of about 75 dg...
...fifteen degrees beyond the placard limitation...
...still high up on the left (thank god for secondary).
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11591
Where to put the weaklink - the HGFA rules
Rohan Holtkamp - 2008/04/21

Once again history has shown us that this thread-through system can hook up and the hang glider remains being towed by the keel only, with the bridle well out of reach of even a hook knife. I know of just one pilot to survive this type of hook-up, took him some twelve months to walk again though.
- There's a reason the people who know what they're talking about call it a "secondary" - rather than a "backup".
- After flying it a couple of times where did Arlan place the tow point?
- Did Arlan say anything about the implications of using the secondary as a backup? (Just kidding.)
When i pulled the secondary the glider was at 90dg ,
...thirty degrees beyond placard.
...i kept the bar pulled in and followed through the turn loosing 350 ft almost instantly..
DUDE!!! You beat the Birkett/Thompson Hang Glide Chicago record for loosing altitude almost instantly by AT LEAST a hundred feet!
Wasn't really fair though - you didn't have any nasty cornfields getting in your way. But them's the breaks.
And let's not forget that - even with that being the case - you WERE nevertheless handicapped with a factory fresh reflex bridle adjustment.

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHGA - 2006/03/15

These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.
But, because your wing loading is lighter, LESS violent. You can only get killed six times over instead of (...doing the math on tandem versus solo wing loading...) SIX times over. So keep pushing out whenever you're behind some shitheaded tug driver with no mirror - just not as far.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
DUDE!!! Start using a WEAK LINK!
A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release Image
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
...(glad i had the altitude).
I'm glad you had it too. Mainly 'cause if you didn't we wouldn't have this GOLD MINE of data - just the usual three sentence bullshit USHGA fatality report blaming the stupid Hang Two who got low behind the tug, made no attempt to release from tow until the situation was excessively south, and pushed out after release instead of allowing the glider to recover normally.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4597
Weaklinks
Donnell Hewett - 2005/02/08 23:28:13 UTC

The sole purpose and function of this weaklink is to limit the towline tension to a manageable level, i.e. a level such that the pilot can still maintain control of the aircraft in the event that the weaklink breaks.

The appropriate strength of a weaklink depends upon pilot skill. A skillful pilot can maintain control when a stronger weaklink breaks whereas a less skillful pilot cannot. As a general rule, a beginning pilot should limit his towline tension to .5-g and an experienced pilot to 1-g. Only highly experienced pilots qualified to perform aerobatics while on tow should use a 2-g or stronger weaklink while being pulled forward (such as when aerotowing).
Yeah, right.
When i landed one of the pilots on the ground told me "I was 100% shure you were going to go inverted"..Tug pilot landed and asked me "what happened" ,
Pretty much the EXACT SAME THING that's gonna happen when you tow Arlan and Jeremiah on their final flight - 'cept without the high cornfield.
I explained it and he said "well it was partly my fault I was flying too slow".
- Partly?
- How 'bout the part when you whipped it to the left with the glider low and half stalled?
Then i looked over my glider and noticed that the right side wire fitting was turned downwards ..(making the right flying wire slightly shorter than the left), This is what caused the turn .
Bullshit.

- How come you didn't report a turn before or after the lockout?

- The asymmetry in effective wire lengths won't cause a turn. All it will do is cock the control frame over and lower the dihedral microscopic degrees.

- Ya notice that you only had the right turn when you were low and half stalled and your "driver" whipped it to the left?
(I learned..Preflight, Preflight,Preflight)
(Hope that wasn't all 'cause that wasn't relevant to the items that almost got you killed.)
Dan Garland - 2007/01/17 03:28:46 UTC
Salt Lake City

Glad you were OK! I've never towed of any sort, but that sounds scary!

I've incorporated a straightening of that fitting you speak of into my preflight (Horizon, also) when I make sure to "un-kink" the side wire grommet thing. I wish North Wing would have used the same fittings as Wills Wing, which have a little raised area to prevent the wire from turning to a "kinkable" position...
Tom Sterner - 2007/01/17 03:39:28 UTC
Aurora, Colorado

Glad you are alright TB I fly a WW Falcon2 195, but plan to get my aero tow rating this summer. So I will keep your instance in mind even though I use a different wing.

Anyone else have instances to watch out for?
Just how often do you hear about tows with Industry Standard crap in which shit that would've killed somebody down low DOESN'T happen?
I really like a post like this 3 thumbs up.
Me too, Tom. So much more entertaining than reading the documentation on how to build a release system that doesn't totally suck.
T.B. - 2007/01/17 04:14:27 UTC

i really havend heard of any other..(such as my own.. but a lot of incidencess go unreported)....
Yeah.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents
Matt Pericles - 2009/11/09 18:38:42 UTC
Roswell, Georgia

Where I fly (LMFP) there are a number solo pilot accedents every year, mostly where pilots get off the cart too soon. These pilots usually wind up bending aluminum, and some break bones.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
The flight parks have a lot of motivation for not reporting incidents and are accountable to NO ONE.
You have to undarstand the glider was a new model .....There are allways some corks , no matter who the maker is ..
Bullshit. We know how to make gliders. They're not all that goddam complicated.
Jack Axaopoulos - 2007/01/17 04:19:31 UTC

The only time I push out on a tow is if I already have a LOT of altitude. At which point ill push all the way out to min sink, knowing im increasing the chance of a lockout by lowering my speed. (but with plenty of altitude and time to respond)
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/10 13:36:53 UTC

I still dont know if I buy into the stronger weak link hypothesis.
Ive broken weak links on purpose at altitude by banking up and pushing out abruptly. That is a mechanism I want to keep, not give up.
Pick one, Jack.
ONE FINAL POINT

Those "handle brake" releases SUCK in my opinion, and you experienced one reason why. (having it rotate on the downtube as you tried to grab it).

Having it on the downtube, is also a reason I hate them. Having a release that requires you to let go of the base tube and reach for it to release is a bad idea in my opinion.
C'mon, Jack... Would Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden put a color photo of a Wallaby Release on the back cover of their book if this thing were a dangerous piece of shit?
I have one of the lookout "string loop" releases which I slip a few fingers thru and then hold on to the downtube. A release is as quick as a simple tug...
...OR, occasionally, four tugs:

http://vimeo.com/17472603

password - red

...Or, occasionally...
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20

After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall...
...and I dont have to reach or even look for it.

When the shit hits the fan, and you are locking out low, and weight shifting hard to delay the full lock out, the last thing you want to do is let go of the basetube which could send you into a wing over!
I REALLY wouldn't worry about it...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal
Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.
It's simply a matter of overcoming your natural inclination. It's not like there's an actual downside to this.
I use to "pro tow" occasionally, using only a twin pair of chest mounted barrel releases, and I dont like them either because I have to let go to activate them.
But perish the thought of putting an actuator in your teeth.
T.B. - 2007/01/17 04:29:03 UTC

OK..SG you have to understand that i was flying behind a KOLB ...the tow point is set forward more as the KOLB flyes faster than a Dragon Fly ..
Great! Keep releasing from the bottom. And make sure you've always got a running camera on you.
...(since the tug was flying too slow it made my tow point worthless) ..And No i wasn't pushed out I had the bar out , I didn't push out until about 700 ft....
Try to get an extra sixty feet next time.
In fact i'll tell you the exact words of the tug pilot "I was looking in my mirror to see where you were and then i looked at my air speed and oh shit"..
Oh good. He actually DID have a mirror. (Was that the first time he used it?)
Tom Sterner - 2007/01/17 05:51:57 UTC

As to the hand release mechanism I had trouble with those during training it would slide from my optimum position halfway up the down tube to the bottom and screwed up a couple of my releases during training. I found when having to chase the release as a beginner and holding the upright with only my left hand caused me to push inadvertently with that hand which also caused me to turn the glider. Twice I had to yank the blades to cut the week link to release the tow.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939
Weak link breaks?
Jim Rooney - 2005/08/31 23:46:25 UTC

As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
After the second time i placed Velcro strips below the release handle cause it to is held in to place by Velcro straps around the down tube which prevented the handle from sliding down the tube...
What? You never heard of DUCT TAPE before?
...for my future tows my next purchase is the duel chest release for towing.

Although inexpensive was the reason for my first choice for the handle release method.
Great. And that way you had plenty of change left over for the blades to cut the week link. How many weeks did that operation take?
After the two times during my 4th and 5th tow ever while training, I stayed calme and executed the correct procedure.
So you stayed on the ground?
The other thing I hate about this type of release is occasional it decides to release when it wants to and that to is a surprise when your training because if you are not expecting it you feel like your cruising and then your a lawn dart without warning and if it happens within 30' you pretty much are a lawn dart.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past 5 years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers.
Wallaby, Quest, Lookout... They're the best at maintaining their reputations.
i really havend heard of any other..(such as my own.. but a lot of incidencess go unreported)....
See?
Tom Sterner - 2007/01/17 05:51:57 UTC

If you arnt expecting a release your body surges backward in comparison to the wing with altitude it isn't a problem close to the ground your wing immediately responds to the pendulum and there is very little time to recover
No no no no. You're coming off BEFORE your Greenspot blows. And we all know that if you're trying to limit your climb rate...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

...and the forces exceed the break limit, the glider simply drops its nose to the free flight attitude and continues flying.
T.B. - 2007/01/17 06:27:15 UTC

There is only one way that the hand brake release will release on it's own ..(and it saved my skin one time)..
It felt bad about almost killing you on your first tow on that glider so it more than made up for it when it realized you were asleep at the switch.
#1 it will release on it's own if your tow point is behind your harness lines.

#2 It can mess things up if there is a loop in the brake line it's self....(don't know if i'm making any sence to you)
It would help a lot if you would write at a second grade level.
Tom Sterner - 2007/01/17 07:16:50 UTC

Makes sense but with the handle release you can literly grab the sleeve and it will release, I've tried three different ones now they seem to all act the same.

I know now that it is truly not the best system.
Duh.
You can attach it the same way but a kink, twist, or the wrong pressure on the sleeve will release it.

I believe we are talking about the same problem with this type of release.
Diev Hart - 2007/01/17 16:54:20 UTC
Santa Cruz, California

This sounds like a typical lockout (other than the too low part (you might re-check your keel attachment point, shouldn't be further than 14 in up from your hangpoint (on most gliders) but yours is new(er) so just recheck with mfg?)...
If you're gonna make a habit of releasing from the bottom I wouldn't go any farther forward than the carabiner.
Those brake releases do work great if they are set up correctly...
I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.
Yeah, get a tandem instructor to set it up for you.
...like sg, I now use the finger loop type. He mentioned not taking his hand off the downtube to release it (in one part of his post) but I think he ment base tube. You can mount your break handle on your base tube also...
As long as you're a great lander like Spark and don't need wheels.
...and makes it less of a travel to get to it, but the issue is it has to clear the cart blocks/tow line. The other thing that happens with them is pilots do not give enough slack at the top area (hang area). There must be a big loop up in this area so that it doesn't release on it's own like others mentioned. Some also have an adjuster for the tention so if that is too tight it will also release to soon. After you install it hook it up to the tow line and grab the line and move it all over. You should be able to get the tow line to touch the nose wires with out it releasing (not like you would ever wait that long to release). It should not rotate on a streamlined downtube if you attach it very tight with the supplied velcro (with the proper release action). On a round downtube you might try adding some soft rubber under it to help it grip and stay in place.
Notice here I put the a old break on the inside of the dt so I just hit it with the side of my hand, (this could rotate though)

Image
Or you could just have it built into the fucking glider so it would actually work once in a while - but I guess if you shitheads did that you really wouldn't have anything much to talk about.
I love my wheels to, my hands are 8" off the deck
How much velcro did you use to mount them?
Things happen REAL quick on tow.
T.B. - 2007/01/17 23:23:56 UTC

No...I was low on the tug from takeoff (no bar pressure)...
Right. YOU were low on the tug. USHGA's lawyers can use that one. Maybe you can get a membership at reduced dues.
...i was towing at trim , i could almost let go of the base tube and the glider wouldn't climb...

The thing is that i've towed at the same tow point before (no problems)..
As far as the release , i set it up loose so i could use the VG..i will be buying one from LMFP to replace it...(unless i can find some way to use it without the velcro pinching the VG line)

What amazed me was that the weak link didn't break....with that amount of pressure it should've snaped before it got too ugly.
Yeah... What about that? Weird.
Diev Hart - 2007/01/18 20:19:01 UTC

they won't break in a lockout....
Nah, of course not. They break BEFORE lockouts - before you can get into too much trouble.
I guess you can't get the velcro under the line either (not sure how your vg line is routed)...

Once on a tow I started a lockout, I was up around 2000f ft so I decided to see how far it would go before the weaklink broke....it never did and I was pointing almost to the ground by the time I let go of the basetube and released.....I kept waiting and it never broke. They won't on most lockouts either (usually), the force builds too slow.....
Idiot.
T.B. - 2007/01/18 22:16:37 UTC

Have you ever seen a Lamuette's downtubes...??
Mine are the same with the rubber on the back...( i think they call them Safe Edge).........and the VG line is routed through that rubber....Some of the older Atos have these downtubes .
Diev Hart - 2007/01/18 22:41:57 UTC

aw yes, I know what your talking about.
I think you could tape a hard half tube (3/4 tube) or somthing over that back part of the dt and then put the release there so when you tighten it, it clamps on that and does not stop the VG's action....just a thought....
T.B. - 2007/01/18 23:47:05 UTC

That's a good idea...i like it

At first i was thinking of drilling and tapping two holes in the dt....But i like your idea better....Thanks
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions
Davis Straub - 2011/04/05 14:00:25 UTC

The flight park procedures here at Quest Air are the result of years of evolutionary pressures and experience that provide the focus on safety.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release
John Fritsche - 2008/12/12 05:38:02 UTC
Lompoc, California

Do people still use those (IMO, stupid) releases that involve bicycle brakes?
Do bears...
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Hang Glide Chicago
severe stalls upon separations
Wallaby Releases - downtube mounted levers
Kolb tug
2004/06/26-2005/09/03
- time span - 435 days (one known severe stall per 145 days)

---

2004/06/26
Mike Haas
- advanced
Moyes Litesport 147
driver - Arlan
- position - unknown
Wallaby Release
- closed
- very likely inaccessible when needed
- quite possibly inoperable
weak link
- blown at max altitude (glider)
stall - rolled
max - 100 feet - lost 100
fatal

2005/04/--
T.B.
- novice - Instructor: Arlan
North Wing Horizon ET
driver - not Arlan Birkett
- position - high for duration of tow
Wallaby Release
- closed - inoperable
- Bailey Release backup
weak link
- intact
stall - locked out
max - 700 feet - lost 350

2005/09/03
Arlan Birkett / Jeremiah Thompson
- novice - Instructor: Arlan
North Wing T2
driver - unknown
- position - high for duration of tow
Wallaby Release
- closed - not relevant
weak link
- blown at max altitude (tug)
stall - level
max - 200 feet - lost 200
fatal - times two
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Hey T.B.,

- Arlan sold you the glider, "mounted" the brake lever on the downtube, and took a couple of test flights.

- And Arlan sold you and sent you up with The Mother Of All Shitrigged Releases - the kind that very probably killed Mike Haas right there at that very runway and DEFINITELY killed Robin Strid about ten and less than four months before your "flight" respectively. This thing sucks so bad that even Jack says it sucks and opts for a Lookout Release that sucks so bad that even Ridgely won't sell it. It sucks so bad that it was even "banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay" by the assholes running that serial atrocity after it killed Robin.

- And he "trains" and rates tug drivers - in all likelihood the one(s) who almost killed you and will kill him and his tandem student four and a half months later.

- You didn't have a "really bad tow". A really bad tow is when you're getting kicked all over the place in turbulence and your arms are a bit rubbery by the time you get to release altitude. You got killed. You got killed just as dead as someone who's advised by a member of his wire crew that it would probably be a good idea to connect himself to his glider before proceeding any further. The ONLY reason your ass is still alive is 'cause you still had air under you after burning up about the same recovery altitude as the fatal 2004/06/26, 2005/01/09, and 2005/09/03 plummets combined.

- And this wasn't worth a widely publicized advisory or even some obscure incident report USHGA could bury away were nobody could have access to it?

- And your "instructor" had NOTHING to say about about this kill in the rather short remainder of his life even to you? So instead you're discussing it with Jack Show assholes seventeen months after the incident and getting ideas about how to better shitrig a brake lever to a downtube (where you can't get to it anyway)? What the hell was he teaching besides up, down, left, right?

- What did you and Arlan discuss after this kill? How your flare timing needed to be dialed up another half second to get a really good no-stepper?

Sorry, but I'm not getting the impression that he was doing the aviation gene pool a helluva lot of good. Too bad he was flying tandem when he took himself out of it.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/9.179
Fatality Report
Angelo Mantas - 2005/08/30

Scenario - Mike Haas's accident happened during midday thermal conditions. He was flying a Moyes 147 Litesport, aerotowing it off of a launch dolly. Several witnesses saw the accident, but I give Dave Whedon's account the most weight, because a) He saw the entire event, from start to finish, and b) He was watching several tows intently to see what conditions were like, since he hadn't towed in a while.

The tug was given the "go" signal. Dave said that almost as soon as Mike launched off the cart, he appeared to be having difficulty with both pitch and roll control. Then, at around fifty to sixty feet, the glider pitched up radically and started arcing to the left. Somewhere around this time the weak link broke, or the pilot released. The glider continued rotating left and dove into the ground, first hitting the left wing tip, then nose. The glider's pitch was near vertical on impact, confirmed by the fact that the control bar, except for a bend in one downtube, was basically intact, whereas the keel and one leading edge snapped just behind the nose plate junction. This all happened fairly quickly. Based on witness and tug pilot accounts, the glider was never over a hundred feet.

Despite help reaching him almost instantly, attempts to revive him proved futile. Mike suffered a broken spinal cord and was probably killed instantly.

Causes

In examining the circumstances surrounding the accident, it seems to me that several factors, which by themselves might not cause major problems, combined to lead to Mike's losing control of the glider.

1) New, high performance glider.
2) Larger size glider than what he was used to.
3) A fast flying tug (Kolb)
4) Flying through a thermal just after launching.
5) A rearward keel attachment point on the "V" bridle.

Mike had only one previous flight on his new Litesport, in laminar coastal ridge soaring conditions. Although he flew over two hours, he probably never flew the glider at the speeds encountered when aerotowing. Mike had many aerotows on a Moyes Xtralite, but according to Matt Taber, the Litesport doesn't track as well at high speed. The Litesport was also bigger than his Xtralite, which would make it less responsive and harder to control.

The tug used was a Kolb ultralight. Although this tug had an increased wing span than normal Kolbs, it still tows at a higher speed than a Dragonfly. I can tell you from my own experience that it is harder to tow behind a faster tug.

Soon after launching, the glider and tug flew through a strong thermal. This is confirmed by witnesses watching the tug, and the tug pilot's reporting a strong spike in climb rate.

Here is where some controversy might come in: on examining the wreckage, Arlan (tug pilot) saw where the upper "V" bridle was attached, and immediately felt that that was a possible cause of the accident. It was attached at the hang point, and in his opinion, was too far back for a stable tow. Since then, there has been debate on whether or not that was a safe attachment point. That positioning on the keel was recommended to him by the seller, and apparently many other pilots have towed a Litesport from the same position. Shortly after the accident, some pilots in Wisconsin did an aerotow of a Litesport from slightly behind the hang point, and reported it towed fine.

I agree with Arlan that the upper bridle attachment point contributed to the accident. The test done in Wisconsin was done early in the morning in stable conditions, and the pilot weighed fifty more pounds than Mike. Just because others have managed to tow with this upper bridle position, doesn't mean it's safe, especially for pilots on the light end of the weight range.

To sum up, Mike was flying a glider that was bigger than what he was used to, with less stability at the higher speeds needed to stay behind the Kolb. Even with Mike's hang gliding experience, these factors would tax his abilities. These difficulties would be magnified by the de-stabilizing effect of the rearward keel bridle attachment and the faster speed of the Kolb tug. Already struggling (as witnesses state), when Mike hit the thermal, a difficult situation became impossible. Mike lost control, and either locked out or stalled, leading to his dive into the ground.

How can we prevent this from happening in the future?

A proper keel attachment would have made the glider fly faster without a lot of bar pressure. It also would have made the glider more stable in yaw, because the tow force would be farther in front of the CG. My own experience has been that since moving my keel attachment further forward, tows are much more stable.

Using a tail fin - Tail fins definitely help stabilize gliders on aerotow, especially high performance gliders that may be less stable in yaw. A too rearward keel bridle attachment can be overcome with a fin. Many aerotow parks use tail fins on their demo gliders. The downside to fins is that they can make thermaling difficult on many gliders, but they can still be a valuable tool to make your glider safer while you figure out where your keel bridle attachment should be.

First tows of new gliders in smooth conditions. It is much easier to aerotow a new glider when the air is smooth. Learn how the glider tows in calm air, make any equipment adjustments necessary, then later tow in midday, thermal air.

Practice flying your glider fast before aerotowing it. If you foot launch or static tow your glider, you can literally fly for years without ever flying at the speeds involved with aerotowing. Even platform/payout winch towing doesn't involve those speeds. Practice pulling in the bar and keep it there. Easy? Now try to make a small heading correction and keep it. Good chance you'll be PIOing all over. This kind of practice definitely pays off.

Wind streamers along runway. It's agreed that Mike hit a strong thermal shortly after launching. Placing streamers on both sides of the runway, at regular intervals, would help detect if a thermal is coming through the takeoff area. If all the streamers are pointing the same way, it's safe to launch. If some of the streamers start moving other directions or reversing, it's obvious some kind of turbulence is coming through. This is not a new idea, it's not expensive (wood stakes and surveyor's tape) yet I've never seen anyone do this. Maybe it's time we start.

Mike was a Hang IV pilot with over twenty years experience. He was not a "hot dog" and was very safety conscious. No one who knew Mike could believe that this happened to him. Although I feel I have a better understanding now of what happened, I can't help feeling that if this could happen to him, none of us are safe.
Mike Haas's accident...
Yeah. Accident.
Dave said that almost as soon as Mike launched off the cart, he appeared to be having difficulty with both pitch and roll control.
But I'm not hearing from anybody that he was the slightest bit out of position when the shit hit the fan. So I'm not seeing how this has any real bearing on anything important. It sounds like he had things under optimal control before external factors switched the heading to south.
Then, at around fifty to sixty feet, the glider pitched up radically...
And, obviously, this twenty year pilot was too stupid to stuff the bar in response.
...and started arcing to the left.
Did Arlan start arcing to the left to help him out?
Somewhere around this time the weak link broke, or the pilot released.
This guy was killed, it's been over two months, you don't need to be an ace crash investigator to determine whether the weak link broke or the pilot released, and we don't know which?

The fuckin' weak link broke, the glider was left severely stalled, the pilot died.
Based on witness and tug pilot accounts, the glider was never over a hundred feet.
Indicating that the glider was climbing when the fuckin' weak link blew.

That's not what your report says, Joe. That would've been nice information to have published. But I guess if it were published it would help undermine USHGA's sacred cornerstone of towing safety - The only good weak link is a blown weak link.
In examining the circumstances surrounding the accident, it seems to me that several factors, which by themselves might not cause major problems, combined to lead to Mike's losing control of the glider.

1) New, high performance glider.
2) Larger size glider than what he was used to.
3) A fast flying tug (Kolb)
4) Flying through a thermal just after launching.
5) A rearward keel attachment point on the "V" bridle.
Wind streamers along runway.
6) No wind streamers along runway.
Dave Broyles - 1990/11

I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.
7) Fuckin' weak link which will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.
If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.
8) Shitrigged release with shitrigged actuator velcroed onto downtube. That probably wasn't a factor here but if there was any window at which it would've been appropriate to release he wouldn't have been able to do it.
1) New, high performance glider.
On which he had logged over two hours.
2) Larger size glider than what he was used to.
On which he had logged over two hours.
3) A fast flying tug (Kolb)
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=1245
bad tow
T.B. - 2007/01/17 03:08:33 UTC

When i landed one of the pilots on the ground told me "I was 100% shure you were going to go inverted"..Tug pilot landed and asked me "what happened" , I explained it and he said "well it was partly my fault I was flying too slow".
Yeah, right.
Although he flew over two hours, he probably never flew the glider at the speeds encountered when aerotowing.
Bullshit.

On the relevant part of the flight the problem wasn't too much airspeed - the problem was next to zero airspeed.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4593
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC

This scenario is in my opinion what happened with Mike Haas at Cushing Field last year. His weaklink broke at a low altitude and he rolled off the stall.
Got that? STALL. (Even from this idiot.)
The Litesport was also bigger than his Xtralite, which would make it less responsive and harder to control.
Bullshit.
- If anything, his problems immediately after coming off the cart were overcontrol - not under.
- Any problems he might have had immediately after coming off the cart were irrelevant ancient history by the time the shit hit the fan.
- Equipped with the crap he was, no one else would've ended up any less dead in the same circumstances.
I can tell you from my own experience that it is harder to tow behind a faster tug.
So then slow it down to about five miles per hour faster than what T.B.'s driver was doing.
Soon after launching, the glider and tug flew through a strong thermal.
The glider and tug flew through a strong thermal? In my limited experience it always seems to happen the other way around - first the tug, then the glider.
This is confirmed by witnesses watching the tug, and the tug pilot's reporting a strong spike in climb rate.
So do we get to hear anything about the relative heights of tug and glider?
Here is where some controversy might come in...
I think we coulda started back at:
1) New, high performance glider.
...on examining the wreckage, Arlan (tug pilot) saw where the upper "V" bridle was attached, and immediately felt that that was a possible cause of the accident.
- How convenient. Then we can ignore the issues of Arlan not having streamers along the runway, allowing him to fly with a shitrigged release and piece o' crap weak link, launching him into a powerful thermal, and flying him too fast.

- Accident?
It was attached at the hang point...
Big Fucking Deal. Litesports are towed one point all the time with infrequent fatalities and that so makes all this crap about trim points just a bunch of crap about trim points.
Shortly after the accident, some pilots in Wisconsin did an aerotow of a Litesport from slightly behind the hang point, and reported it towed fine.
Precisely.
It was attached at the hang point, and in his opinion, was too far back for a stable tow.
Really? What was his OPINION about this trim point BEFORE the fatal tow?
Since then, there has been debate on whether or not that was a safe attachment point.
So how come there's nothing in the fuckin' owner's manual about safe attachment points so we don't gotta listen to all these goddam opinions and stupid debates? Bill Moyes has never heard of towing hang gliders before?
That positioning on the keel was recommended to him by the seller, and apparently many other pilots have towed a Litesport from the same position.
And apparently many other pilots have towed a Litesport one point which so astronomically dwarfs the issue of the positioning on the keel that I can't figure out why were having this idiot conversation.
Shortly after the accident, some pilots in Wisconsin did an aerotow of a Litesport from slightly behind the hang point, and reported it towed fine.
Shortly after the accident, some pilots in Wisconsin did an aerotow of a Litesport from slightly behind the hang point, and reported it towed fine.
I agree with Arlan that the upper bridle attachment point contributed to the accident.
Great!
The test done in Wisconsin was done early in the morning in stable conditions, and the pilot weighed fifty more pounds than Mike.
- Which was WHAT?
- The glider's got a recommended hook-in weight range spanning ninety pounds - starting at 150.
- So we should be ballasting up to tow in thermal conditions?
- I didn't hear that there were turbulence issues right after launch. If there were then:
-- Arlan should've been equally aware of them; and
-- it would make it rather difficult to comment on the kind of job Mike was doing before hitting the thermal.

Otherwise...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09

Witness reports indicate that the glider began oscillating immediately after leaving the launch dolly.
He's OVERcontrolling and this crap about him having problems about being light on the glider is total (diversionary) lunacy.
Just because others have managed to tow with this upper bridle position, doesn't mean it's safe, especially for pilots on the light end of the weight range.
- So are we putting out an advisory not to tow 149 Litesports from the hang point - especially for pilots on the light end of the weight range? Are we including this in the new owner's manuals?

- How safe is it to try to fight a lockout with one hand while trying to actuate some piece o' shit release with the other?

- In other words... How come we're wasting time talking about this trivial crap?

- I got news for you. Hang gliders on tow are INHERENTLY ROLL UNSTABLE. None of them are "safe" no matter what the hell you do. But only total morons use shitrigged releases and weak links to make them even more dangerous than necessary.

- The hook-in weight range for that glider is 150 to 240 pounds. That's for free flight. On tow the pilot is effectively heavier than he is off. If Mike's at the absolute bottom of that range, with the tow tension split by a two point bridle he's about thirty pounds under the top end.
To sum up, Mike was flying a glider that was bigger than what he was used to...
Although he flew over two hours...
...with less stability at the higher speeds needed to stay behind the Kolb.
Sorry, I missed the part about him not being behind the tug prior to being hit.

But let's assume that the Kolb ISN'T capable of staying in the air at less than five or ten miles per hour under the Litesport's VNE. Then should we be towing hang gliders with Kolbs instead of Dragonflies? (Don't worry, I'll let you keep your Kolbs - people lock out and die behind Dragonflies just fine too.)
Even with Mike's hang gliding experience, these factors would tax his abilities.
Bullshit.
- There is ZERO indication that - prior to lockout onset - inadequate control authority had ANY bearing on this incident.
- At higher speeds he's gonna have control authority coming out of his ears.
- Any pilot of any hook-in weight of any experience and skill on any glider can and will lock out when he gets hit hard enough.
- After you get hit hard enough there's no such thing as stability and the "pilot" won't matter much for at least a while.
These difficulties would be magnified by the de-stabilizing effect of the rearward keel bridle attachment and the faster speed of the Kolb tug.
Bullshit.

THERE WAS NO REARWARD ATTACHMENT. The goddam attachment was at the hang point - EXACTLY where the glider was designed to take that load. Moving it fore on the keel might have trimmed the glider to make it a little easier to fly but it didn't destabilize a goddam thing.

Moving it fore WOULD have helped with the pitch up when he hit the thermal but if we're gonna start down that road we should outlaw one point towing (which might not be all that bad an idea).

And maybe it wouldn't have been a been a bad idea for Mike to have either stuffed the bar or aborted the tow when he saw the tug get hit. Now that I think of it... Maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea for him to have done both - win/win.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a 20-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.
But since Dennis (towing one point) was LUCKY enough to be able to pull out - quite possibly 'cause his driver held his speed and altitude down and his fucking loop of 130 pound Greenspot held long enough to let him have some gain that Mike was robbed of - he doesn't hafta listen from the grave to a bunch of crap about dangerous keel attachment points and inadequate skill to keep a glider under control in a lockout.
Already struggling (as witnesses state)...
...but didn't really report...
...when Mike hit the thermal, a difficult situation became impossible. Mike lost control...
- Whereas all the witnesses observing the situation from the safety of the ground would've done JUST FINE in the same situation with THEIR gliders, Wallaby releases, and weak links.

- Bear in mind that right up to the instant of the weak link blow he was still climbing and maintaining SOME level of control.
...and either locked out or stalled...
Both. He was locking out, the weak link blew, and he stalled. Somebody cite me an example of a locking or locked out glider still airborne at the time of separation that DOESN'T stall.
...leading to his dive into the ground.
Which, kids, is yet another example of why you shouldn't listen to shitheads like Rooney and Ryan who tell you:
...just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
or:
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
or:
A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.
A proper keel attachment would have made the glider fly faster without a lot of bar pressure.
I haven't heard any reports of bar pressure being an issue with gliders like that being towed any flavor of two point. I've flown gliders like that one point and found the bar pressure barely noticeable.
It also would have made the glider more stable in yaw, because the tow force would be farther in front of the CG.
Good luck. Roy Messing got killed just fine locking out with the attachment on his Falcon 3 195 just below the cross spars junction right where Wills Wing tells you to put it.
My own experience has been that since moving my keel attachment further forward, tows are much more stable.
How stable are your tows when you fly into a thermal at sixty feet?
First tows of new gliders in smooth conditions. It is much easier to aerotow a new glider when the air is smooth. Learn how the glider tows in calm air, make any equipment adjustments necessary, then later tow in midday, thermal air.
So if Mike had done that he wouldn't have locked out later in identical circumstances?
Practice flying your glider fast before aerotowing it. If you foot launch or static tow your glider, you can literally fly for years without ever flying at the speeds involved with aerotowing.
WHAT?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.

Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
02. Rating Requirements
05. Novice Hang Gliding Rating (H-2)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge

-f. Demonstrates flight with smooth variation in airspeed, from above minimum sink to fast flight, while maintaining a heading.
Wind streamers along runway. It's agreed that Mike hit a strong thermal shortly after launching. Placing streamers on both sides of the runway, at regular intervals, would help detect if a thermal is coming through the takeoff area. If all the streamers are pointing the same way, it's safe to launch. If some of the streamers start moving other directions or reversing, it's obvious some kind of turbulence is coming through. This is not a new idea, it's not expensive (wood stakes and surveyor's tape) yet I've never seen anyone do this.
Doug Hildreth - 1990/09

Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - 1990/07/05 - Hobbs, New Mexico - Platform tow - Fatal / Head

The reporter was certain he saw a dust devil begin on the edge of the runway in a location that would support an invisible dust devil on the runway crossing the path of the truck and glider.

Recommendation of the reporter: If towing is done in gusty, turbulent or thermal conditions, a row of wind flags should be on each side of the runway at 50-75 foot intervals to warn of invisible turbulence.
Maybe it's time we start.
Nah. Let's wait another fourteen years, kill somebody else, keep letting the goddam tow operators keep doing whatever the hell they feel like, and talk about helmets, parachutes, hook knives, spot landings, and CPR.
...yet I've never seen anyone do this.
And you're writing over two months after the crash. And that's a REAL good indication that Arlan STILL hasn't put streamers up along the runway. Is that 'cause:
- a) he doesn't give any more of a shit about this issue than he does about safe towing equipment;
- b) putting streamers up would be an admission that he could've easily prevented this fatality before it got off the ground;
- c) both?
Mike was a Hang IV pilot with over twenty years experience. He was not a "hot dog" and was very safety conscious. No one who knew Mike could believe that this happened to him. Although I feel I have a better understanding now of what happened...
Without ONCE discussing the release or the weak link strength? 'Cause that crap just goes without saying? Needs work.
...I can't help feeling that if this could happen to him, none of us are safe.
BULL'S-EYE.

And guess who else is gonna have something very similar happen to him - and his student - in nice smooth air on a nice well trimmed tandem trainer fourteen months later.

And guess who isn't gonna be talking about inadequate skill or currency as factors. Or addressing the issues of tug driver performance or weak link strength.

http://ozreport.com/9.194
Hang Glide Chicago
Closed September 5th
Kris Grzyb - 2005/09/21

I would like to say that I am very happy to be this year's Flytec USA Cross Country Championship winner. (I'm a Flytec user since 1993.) I tried to break the East Coast flex wing open distance record again, but I wasn't as lucky this year.

On this occasion I must say that I owe my success to my great friend Arlan, who's tragic death was a blow to many people.
Including - but not limited to - Jeremiah Thompson and his family and friends. But let's not even mention that he took a student out with him.
Not only did he provide me (and many more pilots) with great flying by Hang Glide Chicago, but also all of my scoring flights began with a tow behind him. He always left me in the best thermals.
- Yeah. That was probably the precise thought on Mike's mind a couple of seconds before his spinal cord was snapped.

- I hope you (and many more pilots) had enough great flying and high scoring flights from Hang Glide Chicago to make the deaths of Mike Haas and Jeremiah Thompson worth it.
We will miss him greatly and never forget his wonderful personality.
Yeah. All these flight park operators and Wallaby release salesmen seem to have wonderful personalities. Unfortunately that's not necessarily a trait you wanna be prioritizing when you're looking at flight park operators and tug drivers.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
Sorry Rob, I always liked and respected you but it's not fair to just beat up on the obvious scumbags in this sport. And, frankly, you didn't do all that great with tow issues - truck or aero - from 1985 on.

http://www.willswing.com/aerotow-release-attachment-points-for-wills-wing-gliders/
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells - 2005/02

Please do not attempt to aerotow any glider without first receiving instruction from a qualified aerotow instructor.
Name one.
The list below will give you a good starting point for attaching an upper aerotow release to our current production gliders. There are a number of other factors that may cause you to want to move it slightly forward or aft of the starting point.

Release Point
The primary factors that determine where the tow point needs to be are: the tow speed of the tug, the glider's aspect ratio, the pitch bar pressure at tow speeds, the glider's top speed, trim speed and the pilot's weight. The proper placement of the tow point will trim the glider with light but positive pitch pressure while under tow.

VG Setting
All Wills Wing gliders equipped with VG are easiest to tow with the VG set to 1/2. This reduces the glider's pitch bar pressure, while at the same time damping the roll response to reduce the chance of oscillations on tow. Pilots at the light end of the recommended weight range may want to set the VG at 1/3 on.

Vertical Stabilizers
All gliders are easier to tow when a vertical stabilizer is added to the rear keel. This provides significantly better directional stability and vastly reduces the chance of oscillations.

Tow Bridles and Releases
These tow point positions assume the use of two spliced Spectra ropes to attach to the tow line. One is attached to a shoulder tow point on the harness with a weak link...
A weak link. Singular. Directly to the tow loop. No release on that side.
...and then is routed through a spliced loop in a second longer Spectra rope...
Just a spliced loop. No thimble. Rope on rope. Would any of you guys dream of configuring anything on any of your gliders with a crap interface like that?
...and attached to the other shoulder via a back-up release.
A "backup release". For WHEN your main release fails?

No weak link on that side 'cause if the one on your other shoulder blows there's NO WAY that end of the bridle won't feed through that eye splice.

And, likewise, no release on the other side 'cause there's NO WAY the weak link won't blow if you release and THAT end of the bridle won't feed through the eye splice.

What kind of a backup release? Something with a bent pin like you used? How come the pin's bent? What load did it test to? Any chance you won't be able to get to it in an emergency? Any chance BOTH hands will be fully engaged flying the glider when the time comes?
The longer rope is then routed through the tow ring and attached to the upper release with a proper weak link.
What's a "proper weak link"? Whatever your goddam "qualified aerotow instructor" tells you? Is it the same for all your gliders? How come the tow points tend to be different but the weak links are all the same?
The assumed tow speed is 32 miles per hour.
What's the assumed tow tension?
Some trikes tow at significantly higher speeds. The higher the tow speed, the further forward the top release must be positioned to trim away pitch pressure. Under no circumstances should you attempt to aerotow behind a tug which has a tow speed that is near the steady state maximum top speed of your glider! We do not recommend releasing from the bottom release point on your shoulders when using a V-bridle.
- So we should ignore what you just told us about the "backup release"?
- This is just a recommendation, right? So it's still OK to release from the bottom first if we feel like it, right?
If the bridle or weak link gets caught on the tow rope ring after releasing at the shoulders...
- What weak link? The only two weak links you've told us about are one at one end of your secondary bridle and one at the top of your primary. The only way one of those - the bottom - can make it to the tow ring is if your primary release fails, you blow the "backup" release, the secondary bridle wraps at the eye splice, and the bottom end weak link blows before the top one.

And then you're only dealing with what's left of that weak link.

And, besides, that can't happen. You've just told us it can't.

- But if it's possible for the primary bridle to get caught on the tow ring how come it's not possible for the secondary bridle to get caught at the eye splice? I'm not sure I'm really following this logic.
...and the glider is being pulled only from the top point, it may become unstable in pitch on tow.
May? With the attachment point fourteen inches forward of the back of the bottom surface zipper it's not gonna instantly tuck your glider and break it negative?
Use the bottom back up release only if you have a top release failure.
- So it's possible for that release sold to you by your "qualified aerotow instructor" to fail?

- So if it does and "the bridle gets caught on the tow rope ring after releasing at the shoulders" and the glider "becomes unstable in pitch" what's your NEXT move? (You guys sell parachutes, right?)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11591
Where to put the weaklink - the HGFA rules
Rohan Holtkamp - 2008/04/21

Once again history has shown us that this thread-through system can hook up and the hang glider remains being towed by the keel only, with the bridle well out of reach of even a hook knife. I know of just one pilot to survive this type of hook-up, took him some twelve months to walk again though.
How come you don't have THAT in your article or owner's manuals?
Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow".
What idiots refer to it as "pro tow"?

- "Qualified aerotow instructors"?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- Hang gliding gurus?
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a 20-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
- Competition pilots?
The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.
The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
And let's not forget that the distance it's positioned back from normal is also the top end speed range you're gonna lose with the bar stuffed - so you're effectively decertifying the hell out of the glider. Right, Rob?
We find that the easiest way to secure the top release to the keel is to use a piece of spectra or perlon line.
Sure. Use perlon. Add some stretch into the system. Predictability makes towing SO BORING.
Start by making a loop around the keel and secure it with an overhand knot and safety half hitch in the desired location. Tie the other end of the line around the king post base secured with a bowline knot and safety half hitch, making sure that the forward loop will position the top release in the desired location.

Use a rapid link to attach the top release webbing to the line. This will make it easy to remove the release.
How 'bout just building the goddam thing into the glider - just like the goddam VG system - so we don't hafta discuss all this do-it-yourself shitrigging and can just leave it there and expect it to work as reliably as the goddam VG system?
Always use an appropriate weak link...
Yep, always use an "appropriate weak link" an specified by your "qualified aerotow instructor". Don't ever leave the ground without your lockout protector.
...with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Longer weak links are more likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release.
Why not just make them as short as possible and minimize any chance of a problem?
Carry a hook knife when towing.
Yeah, don't forget that hook knife. You never know when your shitrigged releases from your "qualified aerotow instructor" are gonna lock up.
Model - Top Release Location

Falcon: 140, 170, 195 - On keel, just below cross bar
Falcon: 225 - On keel, 3 inches in front of cross bar
Falcon Tandem - On keel, just behind the rear of the front keel pocket
Eagle: 145, 164, 180 - On keel, 14 inches forward of back of bottom surface zipper (Must leave bottom surface unzipped 14 inches)
Why don't you just install a couple of extra zipper pulls so you don't hafta leave crap flapping in the breeze?
Sport 2 135, 155 - On keel, at back of bottom surface zipper
U2: 145, 160 - On pilot's hang loop or carabiner
Talon: 140, 150, 160 - On pilot's hang loop or carabiner

Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.
OK Rob, we've discussed qualified aerotow instructors, tugs' tow speeds, gliders' aspect ratios and trim and top speeds, bar pressures, pilots' weights, VG settings, roll responses, vertical stabilizers, proper and appropriate weak links, "pro tow", quick links for easy removal, and hook knives.

Are we gonna say ONE WORD about the placement of any release actuators? Or do we just string them onto our shoulders and velcro them onto our downtubes where our "qualified aerotow instructors" tell us to?

http://ozreport.com/pub/fingerlakesaccident.shtml
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http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
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Oh well, at least it was Davis. That much I thank you for.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Ernest King
- Wikipedia

Fleet Admiral Ernest Joseph King (1878/11/23-1956/06/25) was Commander in Chief, United States Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations (COMINCH-CNO) during World War II. As COMINCH, he directed the United States Navy's operations, planning, and administration and was a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He was the U.S. Navy's second most senior officer after Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, and the second admiral to be promoted to five star rank. As COMINCH, he served under Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and later under James Forrestal.

In 1932 he attended the Naval War College. In a war college thesis entitled "The Influence of National Policy on Strategy", King expounded on the theory that America's weakness was Representative democracy:

"Historically... it is traditional and habitual for us to be inadequately prepared. Thus is the combined result of a number factors, the character of which is only indicated: democracy, which tends to make everyone believe that he knows it all; the preponderance (inherent in democracy) of people whose real interest is in their own welfare as individuals; the glorification of our own victories in war and the corresponding ignorance of our defeats (and disgraces) and of their basic causes; the inability of the average individual (the man in the street) to understand the cause and effect not only in foreign but domestic affairs, as well as his lack of interest in such matters. Added to these elements is the manner in which our representative (republican) form of government has developed as to put a premium on mediocrity and to emphasise the defects of the electorate already mentioned.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Zack C »

Tad Eareckson wrote:Somebody cite me an example of a locking or locked out glider still airborne at the time of separation that DOESN'T stall.
Why is a stall seemingly inevitable in this situation?

Zack
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I'm gonna partially punt on this one.

Dennis has actually written/illustrated/diagramed some pretty good stuff on lockouts but you gotta know how to filter out the volumes of absolute crap to get safely above the break even point.

Try the 1996/10 issue of Hang Gliding if you have the DVDs (and get a set if you don't). These articles were prompted by two funerals I attended earlier that year: Frank Sauber - my friend / student / flying buddy; and Bill Bennett - of Bill Bennett / Mike Del Signore tandem fatality fame.

Failing the DVDs go to Appendix I in Towing Aloft for a shorter version of the same thing.

It usually takes me the better part of an hour to get my head wrapped back around the vector diagrams and - while I am a fan of understanding physics and theory behind things - there's no practical value for getting this one down.

The things you need to know about lockouts when you're connected to the back end of a towline...

- If you fly in thermal conditions there is NOTHING you can do to guarantee you won't be standing on your ear before you can blink sometime in the course of any given tow.

- The usual about that being a really bad time to take a hand off the basetube and start hunting for an actuator "within easy reach".

- When (if) you DO get separated your real problems are just beginning.

- Therefore you can't afford to get locked out low.

- Ribbons along the runway make MUCH better lockout protectors than the goddam 130 pound Greenspot. (Got 'em at Columbus?)

Answering your question as best as I can without really doing it right...

Dive the glider and push out and you describe a smooth curve in a vertical plane.

Roll the glider and push out and you describe a smooth curve in a mostly horizontal plane. That's the best way to understand/explain/effect a coordinated turn.

I think you can do lockouts the same way.

What Dennis refers to as an over-the-top lockout...

Glider's level, good speed, you nail a thermal or dust devil dead center, stuff the bar, and go up like a rocket. Examples... Eric Aasletten, Dennis, dead German Litespeed pilot, Peter Birren. Want to stay on as long as you can keep climbing and stay level 'cause you're maxing out the tension if you're on payout and spiking it if you're on static/aero and things WILL get really ugly if your:
- weak link breaks before you can get into too much trouble;
- tug driver makes a good decision in the interest of your safety; or
- lunatic Birren pitch limiter kicks in and frees you.

Strictly speaking you're not necessarily locked out 'cause if you (and - where applicable - your tug) can ride things out it's possible to get things back under control and continue the tow.

But if you've got 1.0 G Greenspot on your bridle, Rooney on your tug, or a Forburger Lanyard on your wrist you're gonna whipstall - no ifs, ands, or buts - and WILL hit the ground if you're low and are very likely to tuck and tumble before you hit the ground or - if you're lucky - silk.

So to review...

- High pitch attitude 'cause you're on tow and the glider's feeling a forward vector from the towline and trimming to it (in addition to gravity).

- Higher pitch attitude 'cause the tow tension is maxed or climbing (and even with a loop of 130 on a two point bridle you can about double normal aerotow tension.

- Very high angle of attack and extremely high pitch attitude because of thermal blast.

- Lose the tow and you're screwed.

Now - as with the coordinated turn model - just turn that on its side.

When it was vertical you had a chance of riding it out 'cause you still had pitch stability. But towed hang gliders are roll unstable so the worse that situation gets the worse it's gonna get - squared. So you're gonna be rolling and pitching away from the towline fast and if it's static or aero the tension's gonna be going up at a real good clip.

WHEN you release or something gives it's gonna look like:

Hang Glider Lock-Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
dead
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http://www.kitestrings.org/post6995.html#p6995

or:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

05-1318
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The good news is that you're not gonna tuck or tumble before you recover.

The bad news is that you may not have enough air to recover - and I'm GUESSING that you'd need more air to recover than you would for something proportional with the glider level.

A little more on the Mike Haas incident...

I think that by the time he pitched up upon hitting the thermal the likelihood of that tow being survivable was low. The release was no longer an option by that time. A real weak link would've bought him some time and air but it's hard to say if that would've been enough.

It was criminal that there were no ribbons but a tug getting badly kicked 250 feet in front of you makes a pretty good ribbon and at 35 miles per hour airspeed gives you about a five second warning. Our instinct is gonna be to brace for action but at low altitude I think it's gotta be to blow tow immediately and brace for action - and that's something that would be real easy to simulate in training.

P.S. Speaking of training...

It wouldn't be a bad idea for you to slap on a loop of alleged 200 from your spool, go to altitude, and simulate a lockout. Easier to feel than explain. I guarantee you that your central nervous system is gonna be able to predict where you're gonna be heading after the pop a lot better than you're gonna understand by listening to explanations and looking at vector diagrams.

Yeah, that sounds scary and every fiber in your being will be revolting against it but that was the case when you deliberately stalled the glider to get your Three, right? But when you actually did it you said to yourself, "Gee, that was kinda fun!", right?

And you could DEFINITELY get your Hang Four stalls in turns requirement out of the way - although you might exceed the manufacturer's recommended roll limitation a bit.

I'm thinking that this too should be a requirement for an AT rating - along with a question on the written test that reads:

How much altitude did you lose before your glider started flying again after you operated your instant hands free release?

That way it would be a lot more apparent to a lot more people what total morons Head Trauma, Ryan, and Jack are.

P.P.S. Do that with a loop of 130 in smooth air. Film it and have a GPS receiver recording at one second intervals. Then we can break out the video and the numbers every time we hear any of this "instant hands free release" bullshit.

P.P.P.S. And we can also drive a stake through the heart of this Skyting Theory crap about a light weak link ensuring that recovery issues are kept suitable for family audiences.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/9.179
Fatality Report
Angelo Mantas - 2005/08/30

Practice flying your glider fast before aerotowing it. If you foot launch or static tow your glider, you can literally fly for years without ever flying at the speeds involved with aerotowing.
http://www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?b=4&m=2&i=18
Dan Johnson - 1998/08/07

Kolb Aircraft's upcoming air tug

Keep an eye out for the Kolb Aircraft's upcoming air tug. Do ultralights need a 'reason' to fly? Or are they, as many enthusiasts feel, 'just for fun'? The answer is perhaps most often the latter, but among ultralights, a few are given a real purpose.

Industry mainstay Kolb Aircraft offers a broad line of very popular ultralights that are flown in most states by thousands of pilots. The for-fun argument applies to most Kolb models (except those used as trainers) but a new one is coming that is all business . . . well, of a fashion. Let me explain.

Getting serious

In most of hang gliding's 25 or so years of existence, pilots have sought out mountains where they could launch themselves into flight.

The trouble is, mountains don't exist in many parts of America. This limits growth and works against the time constraints of those increasingly-busy hang glider pilots.

A few years ago, an aircraft called the Dragonfly was introduced. This machine was solely designed to tow hang gliders. It broke new ground by flying slowly enough to tow hang gliders that prefer to climb at a maximum of 25-30 mph. Dragonfly (get it: drag and fly?) has sold surprisingly well for a purpose-built specialty machine. Sales now exceed 50 units just in the United States, and more internationally. It comes from Bailey-Moyes, based in Florida, and has often flown at Oshkosh.

Here comes Kolb

Since Dragonfly - as well as a few trike ultralights - enjoyed this success, Kolb Aircraft President Dennis Souder took a look at the opportunity.

"We had a request from right here in Wisconsin," said Souder, "so we examined the idea for our planes." Kolb added some area to the span and the chord of their well-regarded Mark III two-seater and it was pressed into service as a hang glider tug.

"It can tow successfully at 25 mph, although they usually fly about 30," Souder added. At these speeds, Kolb's legendary good handling makes the tow virtually effortless.

"Since that worked well and is a relatively easy modification, we plan to pursue a tug," Souder reports.

He'll use the company's s zippy single seater, the Slingshot. His team will employ the single-place model to offer the tug pilot better visibility during air operations.

The standard Slingshot's short wingspan makes it a hot machine, but the tug model will mate the extended version of the Mark III wings. Such marriages between model features are an aviation standard and make efficient use of a company's designs.
http://ozreport.com/8.190
Hang Glide Chicago
Davis Straub - 2004/09/16

Arlan started Hang Glide Chicago so that he could get some good cross country flights. Of course, all he is getting is tandem flights and the opportunity to tow up other hang glider pilots. But that may be changing in the future as he has taught more and more tug pilots. By next season he should be able to get one of his tug pilots to tow him up.

Arlan wanted me to keep the wheels of the Kolb a plane height above the horizon. He only has one tow point unlike the V-bridle on the Dragonfly, and if you get too high you pull up the tail.
Hey Arlan...

- Doesn't staying LOW behind the Kolb pull DOWN on the tail?

- How high do you hafta get behind the Kolb before its pilot starts noticing a problem?

- Wouldn't staying level with the Kolb be a good compromise?

- I've flown behind Cosmos and Mountaineer trikes and FlightStar ultralights - which also tow from a single point - and I was never asked to put the tug anywhere but on the horizon and I don't recall any reports of any problems.

- This is eighty-two days after Mike was killed behind you. You blasted up in the thermal - presumably before Mike did. How much help would being low behind the tug to start out with have been to him?

- This is seven months before your tug driver is - for the purpose of the exercise - gonna kill T.B. by staying high and slow in front of him.

- This is eleven and a half months before your tug driver is ACTUALLY gonna kill you - and your student - by staying high and slow in front of the tandem trainer.

- How great an idea do you think it was to establish a standard procedure of keeping keeping gliders low behind tugs? How did that pan out in the long term - cost-benefit wise?
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