You are NEVER hooked in.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
Thanks Larry. It would make me SO HAPPY to see this become ironclad Standard Operating Procedure at a single operation. It is my belief and the all available evidence and indication is that NO ONE is doing this ANYWHERE in the world.
People are SO EASILY conditioned to do/use dangerous stupid shit that's highly likely to get them mangled or killed - hang checks, inaccessible and bent pin releases, Rooney Links, upright approaches, whipstall and spot landings... It astonishes me how effective the hang gliding establishment has been in suppressing something this cheap, easy, valuable, obvious.
I'd like to believe that if this were established at just one operation a fair number of lightbulbs would click on and we'd have a small force of evangelists converting and looking out for buddies and adding their voices to the postmortem discussions. (It's been a year and a half since the last fatal so I'd predict another before the end of next year.)
That double pump ritual - even if the pilot is unable to tension the suspension - WILL, at the only moment it counts, trigger thinking, uncertainty, doubt, fear about the hook-in status for the pilot, driver, launch assistant, and anyone with a functional brain watching. And that's most of the game. There've been so many horrible disasters that would've never happened if just one person on site had harbored a little doubt and wasn't making the deadly assumption that everyone else was making.
Get a critical mass of pilots to understand this issue and properly trained and conditioned - this issue becomes extinct.
Paragliders...
They can't launch unhooked but they can and do launch minus leg straps and I'm pretty sure there've been some fatalities. I've had virtually no experience with paragliders but I one hundred percent guarantee you that if I were gonna fly them I'd develop a ritual or technique or two to verify those straps that would kick in within five seconds of EVERY commitment. You need something for towing those things - just a verbal challenge and response is better than nothing.
One idea...
Pilot - "Unclipped." (Although he almost certainly actually is.)
Driver - "Unclipped." (I'm assuming you're unhooked until you verify and assure me otherwise.)
Pilot - "Clipped." (Meaning ready for the gas.)
Do something and post the videos so's we can use them as examples. (Good ones are so hard to find.)
People are SO EASILY conditioned to do/use dangerous stupid shit that's highly likely to get them mangled or killed - hang checks, inaccessible and bent pin releases, Rooney Links, upright approaches, whipstall and spot landings... It astonishes me how effective the hang gliding establishment has been in suppressing something this cheap, easy, valuable, obvious.
I'd like to believe that if this were established at just one operation a fair number of lightbulbs would click on and we'd have a small force of evangelists converting and looking out for buddies and adding their voices to the postmortem discussions. (It's been a year and a half since the last fatal so I'd predict another before the end of next year.)
That double pump ritual - even if the pilot is unable to tension the suspension - WILL, at the only moment it counts, trigger thinking, uncertainty, doubt, fear about the hook-in status for the pilot, driver, launch assistant, and anyone with a functional brain watching. And that's most of the game. There've been so many horrible disasters that would've never happened if just one person on site had harbored a little doubt and wasn't making the deadly assumption that everyone else was making.
Get a critical mass of pilots to understand this issue and properly trained and conditioned - this issue becomes extinct.
Paragliders...
They can't launch unhooked but they can and do launch minus leg straps and I'm pretty sure there've been some fatalities. I've had virtually no experience with paragliders but I one hundred percent guarantee you that if I were gonna fly them I'd develop a ritual or technique or two to verify those straps that would kick in within five seconds of EVERY commitment. You need something for towing those things - just a verbal challenge and response is better than nothing.
One idea...
Pilot - "Unclipped." (Although he almost certainly actually is.)
Driver - "Unclipped." (I'm assuming you're unhooked until you verify and assure me otherwise.)
Pilot - "Clipped." (Meaning ready for the gas.)
Do something and post the videos so's we can use them as examples. (Good ones are so hard to find.)
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
01-30904
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8532/28993414732_0629854fc5_o.png
...the useless fucking...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodbits/3960696963/
...HOOK IN NOW! plaque, coordinating the wire crew, checking the ribbons, and waiting for a good cycle.
03-31006
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8394/28993413612_5b4ac915ee_o.png
There's a glider on a ramp at the top of a mountain with a guy underneath it who's about to run off and stands an excellent chance of being killed if he's not properly secured to it. And if that's not enough of an incentive to key every glider person on and in sight of the ramp to focus on the two issues which most and REALLY matter then that operation needs the be shut down immediately until the relevant instructors are executed, ratings are suspended, and retraining is completed.
1) Is my carabiner connected to my hang strap?
2) Do I have my leg loops?
2. I one hundred percent guarantee you that this idiot piece of shit would result in an increase in unsecured launches. It's just one more huge complication and distraction and means of giving you confidence you're safely hooked in from five minutes prior to launch and on.
3. Reminds me of Rooney. "I launched unhooked and almost killed my passenger and myself - so now I'm an expert on the issue and everyone would do well to listen to my opinion." How 'bout we listen instead to people who flew for decades and never once came close to launching unhooked or missing leg loops?
So Greg...
IF this is such a great procedure for addressing this problem that's been around for at least four decades, how come it isn't SOP for every training program on the planet - the way pulling in in response to a stall is? Why don't:
- manufacturers ship gliders with checklist card configurations or offer them as options - the way they do backup loops?
- clubs mandate them for the sites they manage - the way they do parachutes?
- meet heads like Davis mandate them for competitions - the way they do 130 pound Greenspot and bent pin barrel releases?
Ya know how ya know that this concept is totally useless? If it WERE an effective solution to the problem I one hundred percent guarantee you that you'd be getting attacked by all the industry establishment shits: Davis, Rooney, Ryan, Marc Fink, Tom Galvin, OP, Cragin, Trisa, Mark G. Forbes, Tim Herr... The way things happen when you try to push straight pin releases, weak links to protect against overload, hook-in checks, wheel landings...
You'll probably be getting an NAA Safety Award from USHGA the way other wastes of space have: Peter Birren for his Linknife and Dan DeWeese for his "Hook In!" plaques.
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
It won't. This flavor of fuckup dates back to the dawn of hang gliding, "checklist" was about the third thing that entered the mind of the first person who screwed this pooch, checklists are ALWAYS discussed after unsecured launch incidents, and the rate of unsecured launch incidents has always remained constant.Greg Porter - 2013/10/02
The wing camera was running as I launched from Mingus on August 2, 2013 without being buckled into my harness. Rather than sweep this mistake under the rug, I wanted to put this video out in hopes that it may keep some other pilot from making the same mistake.
Happens all the time. Anybody who finds this difficult to believe has no fuckin' business participating in the sport.As hard to believe as it may be, my harness was hooked to the glider, but I hadn't buckled myself into it... I was only zipped in at the chest.
Even doing a hang check and thinking you're good to go is the single best path you can have to killing yourself in this sport. It's precisely analogous to unloading a gun, flipping on the safety, thinking it's been rendered harmless, pointing it at someone's head, and pulling the trigger.I had even done a hang check and thought I was good to go.
It won't. It'll do the precise opposite.I cover all that in the video in hopes that it may be helpful.
Neither of those variations is dangling in front of you when you're hooked in JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH. They're dangling in front of you just prior to you moving it to the carabiner or stowing it in the nose cone, stepping over...More detail on the checklist system:
Dan Schroeder's system (a fellow AZ Mingus pilot) was based on the idea that if the Final Checklist was somehow ALWAYS dangling in front of you when you were hooked in just prior to launch...
01-30904
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8532/28993414732_0629854fc5_o.png
...the useless fucking...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodbits/3960696963/
...HOOK IN NOW! plaque, coordinating the wire crew, checking the ribbons, and waiting for a good cycle.
You don't go through "Final Checklists" just before launching - asshole. You get your shit together with the preflight crap before taxiing out to takeoff position so's you can focus on what matters....then you had less chance of forgetting to go through the Final Checklist just before launching.
In the airflow.He had a small quick-disconnect (like you see on some car key rings) that was diaper-pinned to side of the main sail zipper fabric out near the nose of the glider. The lower half of the quick disconnect (which was obviously removable) trailed the same bright red streamer and plastic card that you see in my video.
The hard plastic card has a hole cut in it right at the very edge of the card, with a slit cut between the hole and the edge of the card that allows the card to be bent and the hole to be opened temporarily. This slit allowed the card and wound-up red streamer (when detached from the quick-release) to be clipped (muscled) onto the harness carabiner, where it hung for the flight.
I'm NEVER hooked into the glider prior to launch. I've heard about way too many people who were having really nasty surprises.When unhooking from the glider after the flight, the pilot is reminded of the card because it's right there on the carabiner. The pilot would right then remove it from the carabiner and re-attach it via the quick-disconnect to the other half of the quick-disconnect that was still diaper-pinned to the main zipper. Then, with the card once again dangling near the nose with its bright red streamer, the card is folded up with the glider and is once again dangling for the next flight.
A great system I think, because the card is "always" dangling right in front of your face when you are hooked in to the glider prior to launch.
Ya know what's WAY tougher not to notice?If the pilot doesn't notice it (tough not too!) then launch assistants probably would, thus reminding the pilot to go through the final checklist.
03-31006
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8394/28993413612_5b4ac915ee_o.png
There's a glider on a ramp at the top of a mountain with a guy underneath it who's about to run off and stands an excellent chance of being killed if he's not properly secured to it. And if that's not enough of an incentive to key every glider person on and in sight of the ramp to focus on the two issues which most and REALLY matter then that operation needs the be shut down immediately until the relevant instructors are executed, ratings are suspended, and retraining is completed.
How LONG before the flight - asshole?I changed the setup a bit and prefer the card to be permanently tied with a simple knot to an existing brass-grommeted hole in the sail under the nose cone because
1) It's never detached during the flight process so I can't lose it,
2) When stowed under the nose cone it doesn't compromise the aerodynamics of the glider by flapping around on the carabiner
3) It's still dangling in front of me before every flight, without fail
I can just look at the thousand foot drop-off in front of me and review the implications while I'm assuming I'm NOT fully hooked in and prepared to launch.4) I can easily reach it, review it, and stow it while fully hooked in and prepared to launch.
I just lift my glider or let it float up in the breeze until it tensions my leg straps.5) I velcro my nosecone on during preflight when I temporarily have full VG. With this system I don't have to un-velcro the nose cone in order to stow the card, since the card has its own velcro and simply slides under the nosecone and sticks to the velcro I place on the back side of the nose cone.
Sure, Greg. People get distracted by issues involving radios, cameras, helmets, rendering assistance to their buddies, unhook, forget to hook back in, and run off the ramp. But they're gonna remember to pull the card from under the nose cone and let it dangle once again because you just told them to. Idiot.NOTE: If, once you have reviewed the final checklist and stowed it under the nosecone, you decide to unhook from the glider for any reason, you need to be sure and pull the card from under the nose cone and let it dangle once again.
That's OK. These are both moronic approaches to the issue.Dan disagrees with my revision to the system because he feels that during this scenario, if the card was hooked to the carabiner instead of stowed under the nose cone, the pilot would see it there when temporarily unhooking and would move it from the carabiner to the hanging position, so that when the pilot returned to re-hook in the card would be dangling.
In other words... launching under the assumption you're hooked in.He feels there is a very high rate of unhooked launches due to being hooked in and then unhooking temporarily and then forgetting to re-hook in when launching.
How many people are you expecting to use either of these idiot approaches?This is a good point and something you should consider when deciding whether to attach the final checklist to the nose of the glider or to the carabiner.
And then totally forget about the issues of:Oh, before I forget, two important things about the contents of the two checklists:
1) Ensure that the first item on the Final Checklist card is "Pre-Flight Checklist Completed" or something like that.
2) Ensure that one of the items on the Pre-Flight Checklist is "Final Checklist Card is Dangling from the Glider" or something like that.
1) Is my carabiner connected to my hang strap?
2) Do I have my leg loops?
1. Cite a scrap of evidence - statistical or anecdotal - to support that statement.In summary, having the checklist anywhere that works for the pilot is much better than no checklist at all...
2. I one hundred percent guarantee you that this idiot piece of shit would result in an increase in unsecured launches. It's just one more huge complication and distraction and means of giving you confidence you're safely hooked in from five minutes prior to launch and on.
3. Reminds me of Rooney. "I launched unhooked and almost killed my passenger and myself - so now I'm an expert on the issue and everyone would do well to listen to my opinion." How 'bout we listen instead to people who flew for decades and never once came close to launching unhooked or missing leg loops?
That's a GREAT idea, Greg. And I predict that if you pursue this approach you'll get a lot more pilots checking their cards on every flight and a fair more number of pilots falling from their gliders....the idea is to find a method that ensures the pilot is reminded to use the card on every flight.
Except, of course, anything that remotely resembles compliance with the USHGA regulation:Dan feels strongly that he has investigated all the options over many years...
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
And Donnell Hewett, Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, Malcolm Jones, Dennis Pagen, Davis Straub, Jim Rooney, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Paulen Tjaden feel strongly that a loop of 130 pound fishing line is the focal point of a safe towing system. Really hard to beat strong feelings in this sport....and the carabiner clip method is the most fool proof.
Yeah, let's not have enforced Standard Operating Procedures to run this game. Let's have tens of thousands of total idiots deciding what works best for them.I gave all the detail above because I want everyone to know the thought process behind this checklist system, so they could consider those points as they decide what works best for them.
So Greg...
IF this is such a great procedure for addressing this problem that's been around for at least four decades, how come it isn't SOP for every training program on the planet - the way pulling in in response to a stall is? Why don't:
- manufacturers ship gliders with checklist card configurations or offer them as options - the way they do backup loops?
- clubs mandate them for the sites they manage - the way they do parachutes?
- meet heads like Davis mandate them for competitions - the way they do 130 pound Greenspot and bent pin barrel releases?
Ya know how ya know that this concept is totally useless? If it WERE an effective solution to the problem I one hundred percent guarantee you that you'd be getting attacked by all the industry establishment shits: Davis, Rooney, Ryan, Marc Fink, Tom Galvin, OP, Cragin, Trisa, Mark G. Forbes, Tim Herr... The way things happen when you try to push straight pin releases, weak links to protect against overload, hook-in checks, wheel landings...
You'll probably be getting an NAA Safety Award from USHGA the way other wastes of space have: Peter Birren for his Linknife and Dan DeWeese for his "Hook In!" plaques.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
Hey Greg...
Has that EVER ONCE happened with ANYONE ANYWHERE?
Checklists fail left and right. I can count the number of times I've seen Steve Wendt platform launch on one hand - and quite probably on one finger. I was assisting on the back of the truck and watched as he read down the half dozen or so items on the permanent checklist in front of him. He skipped right over "Detach Nose Safety" and commanded the truck to roll. I reached up and disconnected it as he was accelerating. Granted, the consequences of that failure would just have been inability to launch but my sampling very probably showed a one hundred percent failure rate for that checklist/pilot combo.
People who do hook in checks don't launch unsecured. And that's not so much because the hook-in checks are identifying problems as it is that the people who do hook-in checks know that the unsecured launch is the primary threat at the beginning of every foot launched flight and will be constantly thinking about it and taking care of the issues before they get to the point of the hook-in check.
Note that USHGA had three public responses to the 2005/10/01 Bill Priday fatality:
- 2005/12 - Rob Kells article which totally nails the issue but is seriously degraded by the implication that the dangerous crap that Rob McKenzie, Steve Pearson, and Pat Denevan do and teach.
- 2006/01 - Piece of shit Joe Gregor fatality report totally devoid of any hint of acknowledgement of the points Rob Kells had made a month prior and focused on the hang check and other useless preflight bullshit.
- 2011/02/23 - Piece of shit USHGA / Paul Voight video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ
Pre Flight Safety for Hang Gliding - Revision
Hang check is the first and last word on the issue.
So, again, not ONE WORD on written checklists - even/especially from Rob Kells - who's an extremely meticulous preflighter. Why do you think that is?
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
Hey Greg...
Dude approaches the ramp thinking he's hooked in and has his leg loops but is wrong in one of those departments. At the back of ramp he stops, starts going through the checklist he's pulled out of his pocket or is dangling from the nose and says, "HOLY SHIT!!! I wasn't hooked in / didn't have my leg loops. THANK GOD I was using a checklist and was thus able to identify and remedy this issue!"Greg Porter - 2013/10/02
In summary, having the checklist anywhere that works for the pilot is much better than no checklist at all...
Has that EVER ONCE happened with ANYONE ANYWHERE?
Checklists fail left and right. I can count the number of times I've seen Steve Wendt platform launch on one hand - and quite probably on one finger. I was assisting on the back of the truck and watched as he read down the half dozen or so items on the permanent checklist in front of him. He skipped right over "Detach Nose Safety" and commanded the truck to roll. I reached up and disconnected it as he was accelerating. Granted, the consequences of that failure would just have been inability to launch but my sampling very probably showed a one hundred percent failure rate for that checklist/pilot combo.
People who do hook in checks don't launch unsecured. And that's not so much because the hook-in checks are identifying problems as it is that the people who do hook-in checks know that the unsecured launch is the primary threat at the beginning of every foot launched flight and will be constantly thinking about it and taking care of the issues before they get to the point of the hook-in check.
Note that USHGA had three public responses to the 2005/10/01 Bill Priday fatality:
- 2005/12 - Rob Kells article which totally nails the issue but is seriously degraded by the implication that the dangerous crap that Rob McKenzie, Steve Pearson, and Pat Denevan do and teach.
- 2006/01 - Piece of shit Joe Gregor fatality report totally devoid of any hint of acknowledgement of the points Rob Kells had made a month prior and focused on the hang check and other useless preflight bullshit.
- 2011/02/23 - Piece of shit USHGA / Paul Voight video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ
Pre Flight Safety for Hang Gliding - Revision
Hang check is the first and last word on the issue.
So, again, not ONE WORD on written checklists - even/especially from Rob Kells - who's an extremely meticulous preflighter. Why do you think that is?
-
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
Hooking In
whos fault is it ?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/30 02:49:23 UTC
Whos fault is it if we launch unhooked or half hooked. Of course the answer is it is always our fault ! Everything that may go wrong in this sport is always our own fault because we are always the ones that are responsible for making all the right decisions and pay the price when they turn out to be flawed.
Recently a pilot launched without getting into his leg straps in his cocoon harness. He got a Hang check and the checker failed to see he wasn't in the leg loops.
During? launch He quickly realized his mistake and held on to the uprights and struggled to get his foot in the boot. I was watching from the back of the setup area about 400' away . It looked a bit odd but I couldn't see what the problem was. He finally got his foot in the boot after about three try's kick in and flew rather normal. There were many factors that set him up for that inattention. It was his first flight on a new glider. (A biggy ) It was very cold . It was late in the day.
He flew for 45 mins so all seemed ok. I didn't see the landing.
I heard he bitched out the guy that hang checked him. I guess he had it coming. But WE MUST CHECK ALL THE ITEMS OUR SELVES. It's nice to have an other set of eyes BUT the hang check is really for us to go through every item before we launch. Do not lay there like a dog being petted. Actively check every item. You may need them in the air.
luckily the pilot was in good physical shape and could pull off such a feat while flying a topless glider that he had never flown before. Many pilots could not do this being in the shape they are in.
This could have ended very badly. He dodged a bullet, but he loaded the gun and aimed it. WE MUST PAY ATTENTION TO EVERY DETAIL !!
I was doing most of the hang checks for the 20 plus pilots. i found one harness buckle undone, on a harness with only one buckle and one batten tip unclipped.
Happy Holidays
Hooking In
Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC
I already see where the anger and grief take us. We need to do hang checks, double hang checks. And who was on Bill's wire crew? How could they let that happen?
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
- If a you're recent victim of some shit operation like Lockout, Manquin, all of them it's your asshole instructor's and everyone up the ladder from him for not teaching you to do hook-in checks.
- If you've been around a while you've either been on the forums and heard and ignored the message or decided that the postmortem discussions weren't worth reading and you share the responsibility and I don't give much of a flying fuck what happens to you. If you survive, lucky for you. If not, that's fine too 'cause for every three fatalities we usually manage to get through to one person on this.
- If you launch half hooked... Pretty much the same thing. You're idiot instructor didn't get through to you on that danger and you haven't bothered to read the discussions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_oF-BSqnEs
http://vimeo.com/11287752
password - check harness
http://vimeo.com/11287860
password - check harness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
How many of these videos do we hafta show you assholes to get that point across?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTDPeB55ek
It just horrifies me to think what might have happened to Clara because her helmet wasn't buckled.
whos fault is it ?
Depends...Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/30 02:49:23 UTC
Whos fault is it if we launch unhooked or half hooked.
- If a you're recent victim of some shit operation like Lockout, Manquin, all of them it's your asshole instructor's and everyone up the ladder from him for not teaching you to do hook-in checks.
- If you've been around a while you've either been on the forums and heard and ignored the message or decided that the postmortem discussions weren't worth reading and you share the responsibility and I don't give much of a flying fuck what happens to you. If you survive, lucky for you. If not, that's fine too 'cause for every three fatalities we usually manage to get through to one person on this.
- If you launch half hooked... Pretty much the same thing. You're idiot instructor didn't get through to you on that danger and you haven't bothered to read the discussions.
Bullshit.Of course the answer is it is always our fault !
Maybe if we made the instructors, schools, dealerships, glider manufacturers, clubs, national organizations accountable we'd make a little progress in getting things fixed.Everything that may go wrong in this sport is always our own fault because we are always the ones that are responsible for making all the right decisions and pay the price when they turn out to be flawed.
No.Recently a pilot...
That was just a symptom of the problem. The problem was/is that he's never done a hook-in check in his entire stupid useless existence....launched without getting into his leg straps in his cocoon harness.
Big surprise. Hang checks are totally useless for catching leg loops - in addition to being way less than useless for preventing totally unhooked launches.He got a Hang check and the checker failed to see he wasn't in the leg loops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_oF-BSqnEs
http://vimeo.com/11287752
password - check harness
http://vimeo.com/11287860
password - check harness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
How many of these videos do we hafta show you assholes to get that point across?
During? launch He quickly realized his mistake and held on to the uprights and struggled to get his foot in the boot.
Bullshit. There was one and only one issue.I was watching from the back of the setup area about 400' away . It looked a bit odd but I couldn't see what the problem was. He finally got his foot in the boot after about three try's kick in and flew rather normal. There were many factors that set him up for that inattention.
He never does hook-in checks.It was his first flight on a new glider. (A biggy )
He never does hook-in checks.It was very cold .
He never does hook-in checks.It was late in the day.
Well, as long as he stopped it on his feet...He flew for 45 mins so all seemed ok. I didn't see the landing.
Fuck him, the guy who hang checked him, and...I heard he bitched out the guy that hang checked him.
...you.I guess he had it coming.
Yeah, Dave. I'm so happy you made that point. I have no doubt that because you said that people will perk up, take note, and stop launching unhooked and with missed leg loops.But WE MUST CHECK ALL THE ITEMS OUR SELVES.
Yep. Especially lock rings and tubing condition.It's nice to have an other set of eyes BUT the hang check is really for us to go through every item before we launch.
And you can only check leg loops while you're suspended from your glider while one of your buddies is holding your nose down.Do not lay there like a dog being petted. Actively check every item. You may need them in the air.
Yay. I'm so relieved.luckily the pilot was in good physical shape and could pull off such a feat while flying a topless glider that he had never flown before.
Instead of unloading it at the back of the ramp and proceed secure in the knowledge that the gun was perfectly safe from that point on.Many pilots could not do this being in the shape they are in.
This could have ended very badly. He dodged a bullet, but he loaded the gun and aimed it.
DAMN STRAIGHT !! AND MAKE SURE THAT HELMET IS BUCKLED !!WE MUST PAY ATTENTION TO EVERY DETAIL !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTDPeB55ek
It just horrifies me to think what might have happened to Clara because her helmet wasn't buckled.
Both deadly issues. Like you say, you've gotta pay attention to EVERY DETAIL EVERY TIME. Get each glider properly and thoroughly checked out in the staging area so's you can put it out of your mind and get on with the next one.I was doing most of the hang checks for the 20 plus pilots. i found one harness buckle undone, on a harness with only one buckle and one batten tip unclipped.
Go fuck yourself.Happy Holidays
Assholes.2013/11/30 03:29:12 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dan Johnson
2013/11/30 03:09:41 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/11/30 06:35:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
- after the preflight
- when I've got the most reason to be paranoid
- just prior to the point at which being paranoid will serve no useful purpose
For example... All the aerotow operations were violating the crap out of USHGA/FAA weak link, release, and glider regulations. I did my best to deal with the problems first locally and through USHGA and then through the FAA. For my efforts I got blacklisted by the Industry and USHGA scum and ignored by the useless shits at the FAA - but I can sleep just fine after some asshole like Zack Marzec craters the Quest runway.
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - the self proclaimed Pilot In Command of your glider - or some other asshole on the upwind end of a tow - decides to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope while you're fighting to keep your nose down and your flight ends like THIS:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
the upwind asshole has absolutely no responsibility for the results because no matter what the situation is on tow at any given moment...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA
- Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt signs Bill Priday off on his One, Two, and Three without ever once having mentioned - let alone complied with - USHGA's hook-in check regulation and his student runs off a cliff without his glider good ol' Steve is still the greatest thing since sliced bread.
2. So if you see Eric Mies augur himself in doing stupid shit it's OK for you to just walk away and let him die of shock or exposure?
I'll take that as a no.
So why is it more OK to watch Bill Priday or Kunio Yoshimura about to run off a ramp without doing a hook-in check?
- If you do what you can for Eric after the fact you keep him alive but the life he's left with is gonna be unimaginably miserable and undoubtedly shortened.
- By just saying something to Bill and Kunio you can send them home totally unscathed and better pilots for the experience.
And if you don't say anything to Bill or Kunio you won't be flying that day, you and everyone else present is gonna be severely traumatized, people will drop out of the sport, and you may lose the site.
Also, regardless of the hook-in check issue, I've got a big problem with any instructor who would sign off somebody who's enough of an asshole to jump on a volunteer assistant for not doing the job which the pilot himself was responsible for doing - and DIDN'T.
2. REAL pilots don't do hang checks unless they need to check bar clearance for a new glider/harness combo. I cite Rob Kells as a modest example.
- Partial hook-in. If you're aware of the danger you won't make that mistake. And it's something taken care of in assembly/preflight before you gear up for launch.
- Leg loops. Potentially deadly but almost always a non-issue - as per the all the examples here. Easily checked while kneeling or standing under or in front of the glider within seconds of launch while you're hooked in - or not.
- Unhooked. Easiest of the three mistakes to make and most deadly. MUST be checked within several seconds of EVERY launch.
If you need a goddam checklist to make sure you're good on those three items then find another hobby that only requires an IQ in the low single digits - tug driver, for example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9G8ERElpjM
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14-03129
That WORKS. And the best proof that it works is that USHGA hasn't tolerated its mention in any official materials in nearly seven years.
whos fault is it ?
Especially in aerotowing where the Pilot In Command is flying the tug, bravely and selflessly taking huge risks - especially when scumbags from Tad's Hole In The Ground manage to hook up using one and a half G stronglinks - solely to further our happiness.Dan Johnson - 2013/11/30 03:28:50 UTC
Yep, the mental mistakes can really cause you to learn the hard way. When we do this, there may be plenty of blame to go around, but the pilot in command, the one taking the personal risk, absolutely must be the one to ensure the gear is in order.
You tell 'em, Dan. People have really gotta get serious on these hang checks.If you really want to do a pilot a favor, you have got to have the same disciplined approach as the pilot. The bullshit stops at the flight line, even if you have done it a million times.
I like to be really paranoid:I like to be paranoid about my own pre-flight and believe that every one just wants to see me pack it in, and call it "poetic justice".
- after the preflight
- when I've got the most reason to be paranoid
- just prior to the point at which being paranoid will serve no useful purpose
So when would be the best time to be really paranoid and check the two things that matter and not get distracted by all the trivial bullshit Dave's telling us we need to be concerned with?Ground crews can make mistakes, but once you start that takeoff, you are on your own.
Bill Priday and Kunio Yoshimura - disgraces to their top notch instructors.And really, you owe it to the people who got you there, not to fuck it up.
Or you could have allowed the strong wind to float your glider up until it did - or didn't - tension your leg loops.I don't blame the guy who helped me, when I unhooked to launch another pilot, I blame me, because the strong wind had nothing to do with it, and I could have asked my nose man, to check again.
It takes me zero seconds to find out - much less in a strong wind.It only took two seconds to find out...
Me too, Dan. I'm so happy it wasn't the escarpment at Whitwell....and glad I had a slope to run down...
Yeah Dan, great wake-up call, you're good to go now. No fuckin' way you'll ever again need to worry about anything by the time you've gotten onto the ramp....while hauling back the control bar. But Damn, lesson learned. That's an old story, thanks for the reminder!
Asshole.2013/11/30 03:41:19 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
Speaking of screwups... "Its" is supposed to have an apostrophe.Dave Pendzick - 2013/11/30 04:02:08 UTC
Oregon
WHAT THE fuck!?!? How is it someone else's fault that HE did not put on HIS harness correctly!?!?!?! This is exactly why our society is so fucked up. Nobody wants to take ownership for their own screw ups! Its always someone else's fault!
Yeah, this guy's a major asshole. But this is supposed to be self regulated sport and I contend that pilots have a responsibility to make sure USHGA regulations are being adhered to and do something about it if they're not.I could not think of a more cowardly bitch assed way to handle this situation.
For example... All the aerotow operations were violating the crap out of USHGA/FAA weak link, release, and glider regulations. I did my best to deal with the problems first locally and through USHGA and then through the FAA. For my efforts I got blacklisted by the Industry and USHGA scum and ignored by the useless shits at the FAA - but I can sleep just fine after some asshole like Zack Marzec craters the Quest runway.
1. So if:You & you alone are responsible for your own life.
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - the self proclaimed Pilot In Command of your glider - or some other asshole on the upwind end of a tow - decides to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope while you're fighting to keep your nose down and your flight ends like THIS:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
the upwind asshole has absolutely no responsibility for the results because no matter what the situation is on tow at any given moment...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA
...that is something hang gliders - unique amongst all other aircraft - should be prepared for. Drivers are only responsible and credited for SUCCESSFUL tows.Erik Boehm - 2013/11/26 08:50:15 UTC
If the line broke, given that is something one should be prepared for, I still wouldn't blame MSC.
- Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt signs Bill Priday off on his One, Two, and Three without ever once having mentioned - let alone complied with - USHGA's hook-in check regulation and his student runs off a cliff without his glider good ol' Steve is still the greatest thing since sliced bread.
2. So if you see Eric Mies augur himself in doing stupid shit it's OK for you to just walk away and let him die of shock or exposure?
I'll take that as a no.
So why is it more OK to watch Bill Priday or Kunio Yoshimura about to run off a ramp without doing a hook-in check?
- If you do what you can for Eric after the fact you keep him alive but the life he's left with is gonna be unimaginably miserable and undoubtedly shortened.
- By just saying something to Bill and Kunio you can send them home totally unscathed and better pilots for the experience.
And if you don't say anything to Bill or Kunio you won't be flying that day, you and everyone else present is gonna be severely traumatized, people will drop out of the sport, and you may lose the site.
Bullshit. He had some asshole like Tom Galvin for an instructor.This pilot's ignorance & inattention are the sole factors that led to this incident.
Also, regardless of the hook-in check issue, I've got a big problem with any instructor who would sign off somebody who's enough of an asshole to jump on a volunteer assistant for not doing the job which the pilot himself was responsible for doing - and DIDN'T.
1. What kind of pilot allows some piece of shit like Davis or Rooney to dictate that he tows with total crap for equipment and a loop of 130 pound Greenspot as the focal point of his safe towing system? Note that your Ellenville asshole had a normal flight which he finished unscathed while Zack Marzec was DOA at South Lake shortly after being inconvenienced by his Rooney Link.What kind of a pilot does not do their own hang check & relies on someone else to do it for them!?!?!?
2. REAL pilots don't do hang checks unless they need to check bar clearance for a new glider/harness combo. I cite Rob Kells as a modest example.
Stuff it.2013/11/30 04:55:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/11/30 11:51:57 UTC - 3 thumbs up - John Borton
But they DO! Greg Porter got an absolutely FANTASTIC response to the checklist idea he came up with right after HE launched minus his leg loops on 2013/08/02.epic1969 - 2013/11/30 04:08:38 UTC
NorthEast Ohio
Dave as a soon to be new hang glider pilot (almost saved up the cash I have 4 teenage girls, was fun making them but now LOTS of money ) and an airline pilot, I often wonder why hang glider pilots do not use a checklist?
Fer SURE! If you've got that small laminated checklist attached with a lanyard to your harness it's guaranteed that you're clipped in so there'd be no need to actually CHECK that you're hooked in.It seems a small laminated checklist attached with a lanyard to your harness would guarantee your clipped in.
The analogy to this is a gun. You ALWAYS assume that it's loaded and you ALWAYS verify that it ISN'T within two seconds of pointing it at your head and pulling the trigger.An analogy to this would be me calling for the before landing checklist.
Yeah. But you're very likely to walk away from a gear up landing physically unscathed and there's a real good chance you're gonna be seriously fucked up or dead shortly after an unhooked launch.Verifying gear down is the most important part of that checklist.
There AREN'T five items which can be taken care of on a checklist that have a significant chance of killing you on a hang glider foot launch. There are THREE:If you do the checklist the gear IS down. It doesn't need to be a long checklist maybe the 5 most important items that if not checked, will kill you.
- Partial hook-in. If you're aware of the danger you won't make that mistake. And it's something taken care of in assembly/preflight before you gear up for launch.
- Leg loops. Potentially deadly but almost always a non-issue - as per the all the examples here. Easily checked while kneeling or standing under or in front of the glider within seconds of launch while you're hooked in - or not.
- Unhooked. Easiest of the three mistakes to make and most deadly. MUST be checked within several seconds of EVERY launch.
If you need a goddam checklist to make sure you're good on those three items then find another hobby that only requires an IQ in the low single digits - tug driver, for example.
It is. An old and worse than useless idea. You will NEVER see a checklist being used on a launch ramp. You WILL, however, see the rare individual doing THIS:I am sure I am treading in old water on this one so excuse me if this is an old Idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9G8ERElpjM
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14-03129
That WORKS. And the best proof that it works is that USHGA hasn't tolerated its mention in any official materials in nearly seven years.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
- I know that's EXACTLY the sort of mistake a klutz such as myself is highly prone to making.
- Therefore I'd:
-- always be terrified of making it
-- be frequently checking down to thirty feet and I'd never make it
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.
11-091400
These goddam blocks are checklists that everybody has to look at within a few feet of launch, they only have ONE item on them, and...
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03-31006
...they very obviously DON'T WORK.
And when was the last time you heard anybody say to your asshole friend, "DUDE! You saved my life with that block yesterday afternoon! I had done a hang check in the staging area but unhooked to check my camera and forgot to hook back in. I was walking to the back of the ramp with my carabiner dangling planning to launch immediately when your block caught my eye and I said, 'HOLY SHIT!!!' I backed off for ten minutes until I got the trembling under control enough to launch safely. When's a good time for you to take delivery on my first born child?"
Compare/Contrast with:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=15239
Lift and Tug - identified my absent leg loop - thank you!
- a sign quoting the USHGA regulation on the issue:
- pilots, drivers, girl/boyfriends, spouses, passengers, and even wuffos trained or advised to LOOK to see if people were:
-- properly connected and had their leg loops
-- complying with USHGA's hook-in check regulation with every launch
I think I'll pass on it, though. Just looking at the drop-off beyond the end of the ramp is enough to get me thinking hard about the issue.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
whos fault is it ?
He's not a pilot and is an asshole.piano_man - 2013/11/30 04:31:49 UTC
Georgia
The pilot may be in good physical shape but he sounds like a mental midget.
YES. And if you always assume you're about to make the really big one - unsecured launch - within the next couple of seconds, you won't ever make it.We all make mistakes.
His fellow "pilot" didn't make any mistake unless he was specifically asked to check the leg loops and gave a false response. And I'm having a really hard time imagining some set of circumstances in which an assistant could do that job more easily and effectively than the asshole prepping to run the glider off the ramp.Just because your fellow pilot makes one too doesn't mean it's O.K. to dump on him.
That's why I state - "mental midget". Some of us are just too chickinshit to admit it.
Yeah. The guy's fuckin' clueless. I'll deal with it later.Dave Pendzick - 2013/11/30 04:44:15 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClx_UTDm2U
go to minute 6:20
Bullshit. If we all should use checklists we'd see at least a half a dozen good pilots using them. We don't.Steve Corbin - 2013/11/30 04:54:58 UTC
Epic1969, you are so right, we should all use checklists.
...demented...But for whatever reason, checklists somehow never caught on in our...
Thank you so very much, God. And thank you also for standing by this sport and constantly protecting it from evil and guiding it forward. Keep up the great work!...little segment of aeronautics.
I flew airplanes before I found out that a cockpit and a motor were simply not where it's at. God bless the day I found HG!
All items that are either nonexistent or trivial distractions on a hang glider launch.With airplanes, using a checklist seemed oh so natural, I was sitting in the seat, and reading things off while I checked switches, fuel valves, seat belts, control movements, radio frequencies, etc. was an easy thing to do.
I probably wouldn't - for exactly the same primary reason that I'd never launch unhooked:I'm sure you've heard the old adage regarding retractable landing gear: "There's pilots that have landed with the gear up, and there are pilots that will."
- I know that's EXACTLY the sort of mistake a klutz such as myself is highly prone to making.
- Therefore I'd:
-- always be terrified of making it
-- be frequently checking down to thirty feet and I'd never make it
...drops his guard at that point and starts assuming he's good to go because he's mentally ticked it off on the checklist (which he wouldn't have done if he hadn't been relying on the goddam checklist)...The airplane flyer goes through his checklist, gets the gear down on schedule...
No he wouldn't. He'd plow into the cow or student because a really good pilot doesn't ever tolerate distractions or break his routine. Weren't you listening to what Mike Barber was saying in the previously referenced video?...is on short final when for whatever reason he decides to go around; a cow wanders on to the runway, a student commences a takeoff without looking, etc.
EXACTLY. The CHECKLIST is the PROBLEM - not the SOLUTION. Exactly what Steve Kinsley's saying...Habit has the pilot retracting the gear to improve climb as he goes around for another approach, but as he swings onto long final, he remembers having just gone through the checklist, and having already done that, and lowering the wheels fresh in his mind, he recognizes his mistake only when he hears the propeller tips tick-ticking on the runway.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In
...about the fucking hang check.Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
DO A HOOK IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
I'm not. I'm NEVER ready to go. Even when I'm ready to go I'm not ready to go. I guess that's because I'm not a pilot - just a bozo who allows himself to be distracted and interrupted by damn near anything and is never together enough to be confident that he's hooked in.The key here is distraction. A pilot of an HG does a careful preflight inspection, hooks in, is ready to go.
How come he/she just morphed into a he? To make peeing easier?He/She then remembers to get something from / put something in the car, realizes he needs to pee, etc.
Yeah. The preflight is worse than useless on this issue.Coming back to the glider, sees that it's a good cycle to launch with, grabs the glider and lifts it, JUST KNOWING that he's pre-flighted everything including his harness, and commences to launch run.
Good.So he's either un-hooked entirely, or maybe just the leg straps, but anyway there he goes.
Let him die. Then we'll have one less asshole who doesn't do hook-in checks because they give a false sense of security to deal with.It may, or may not end up Ok, in the sense that he dies or doesn't, but either way it's a day to remember.
...skip the hook-in check and...I have a friend back East (I pity the poor bastards back there, I was once one of them) who had to quit flying for awhile, it seems he was on launch and watched a guy...
Not very long, was it? Lemme guess... Bill Priday? He probably had the most heavily witnessed fatal unhooked launch in the history of the sport....cliff launch un-hooked, he held on as long as he could...
But not deeply enough to jump on the hook-in check bandwagon. We don't wanna go totally nuts here.It affected him deeply...
After running off ramps without doing hook-in checks....and has only recently been able to return to flying.
Try this:Maybe others on this forum will have more ideas as to why checklists aren't more widely used.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.
Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
Fuck your friend Dan.My friend Dan launched un-hooked.
Yeah. Those things work great! Here's the one at Kagel that Robert Burgis stepped over just before totaling his glider on an unhooked launch on 2013/08/21:He now makes concrete reminders to hook in that can be placed on launches.
11-091400
These goddam blocks are checklists that everybody has to look at within a few feet of launch, they only have ONE item on them, and...
01-30904
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http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8394/28993413612_5b4ac915ee_o.png
03-31006
...they very obviously DON'T WORK.
And when was the last time you heard anybody say to your asshole friend, "DUDE! You saved my life with that block yesterday afternoon! I had done a hang check in the staging area but unhooked to check my camera and forgot to hook back in. I was walking to the back of the ramp with my carabiner dangling planning to launch immediately when your block caught my eye and I said, 'HOLY SHIT!!!' I backed off for ten minutes until I got the trembling under control enough to launch safely. When's a good time for you to take delivery on my first born child?"
Compare/Contrast with:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=15239
Lift and Tug - identified my absent leg loop - thank you!
FUCK the ORG - that was ENTIRELY *TAD*.Norm Boessler - 2010/01/11 13:24:30 UTC
Armidale, New South Wales
I went for a fly at Mount Borah last Saturday and it turned out to be a PG comp weekend. No probs, I decided to help out with sniffing for thermals in front of the ridge for the pilots as the first thermal was proving hard to hook. Quite a few were bombing out. I decided to switch harnesses to the powered one so I could sit it out in front of the hill till thermals reappeared. Turned out to be a good move as I would have definitely have bombed out myself.
Anyway, I got in the harness and was sure that I had both legs in the loops but the Mosquito A10 is a front entry and is difficult to sight what is being stepped into but I was sure that I had them both in. I did my hang check which confirmed (among other things) that the hang loop was the right length for that harness but did not give me any leg loop confirmation. It is very difficult to visually check but I REMEMBERED stepping into both loops so why should there be a problem??
So I started the motor and did final power checks - all normal and ready. This particular takeoff is a little tricky as it combines a powered launch with a sloped hill launch. Not really a good situation as it mixes two paradigms of launch. One which is committed from the first step and one which must have abort planning. I opted to use the entire run space by starting right at the back of the launch area so I could have some abort possibility if needed. The wind was light so I was not expecting an abrupt updraft at the ridge. It was also going to be a gradual power up and not a full power launch - just enough to get good airspeed and clean separation from the hill.
Wings balanced and level, all clear, lift the glider and a quick squat and BAM - only one leg loop pulls on my tackle. This asymmetric nad squishing was IMMEDIATELY detected followed by a mental switch which condemned the launch as I spat the throttle out and put down the A-Frame with the greatest of shock and relief simultaneously!!!
Thank you ORG...
You cite me ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of a Dan Block or checklist catching a dangling carabiner or empty or unbuckled leg loop....for giving me the 'lift and tug' final check immediately before launch.
Cheers, Norm.
What if you had:My own suggestion, which I'm sure will stimulate debate, is that every launch site be equipped with a sign, right next to launch, advising everyone, pilots, drivers, girlfriends/boyfriends, spouses, and even WUFFOS* that FTHI (failure to hook in) is a problem in the sport, and everyone present should not feel in any way inhibited to ask "Hooked in? Leg straps too?"
- a sign quoting the USHGA regulation on the issue:
and enforced it by suspending the rating of every motherfucker too stupid to comply with it?With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
- pilots, drivers, girl/boyfriends, spouses, passengers, and even wuffos trained or advised to LOOK to see if people were:
-- properly connected and had their leg loops
-- complying with USHGA's hook-in check regulation with every launch
What a clever idea! It's absolutely astounding that nobody's done something like that before!At the bottom of the launch ramp a (flexible) sign that says "R U sure?".
I think I'll pass on it, though. Just looking at the drop-off beyond the end of the ramp is enough to get me thinking hard about the issue.
Pick up something stiffer than beer. You're bound to come up with some even better ideas in a really deep stupor.Ran out of beer. Maybe the wife will take me to the store...
We use that little piece of fishing line to improve safety.* What fo' you do this, what fo' you do that...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Just say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in. And totally disregard what you're seeing and experiencing.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
Remember, a weak link improves safety.
Say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In
- launch:
-- unhooked
-- minus leg loops
- think I can fix a bad thing on tow and not want to start over
- not be prepared for a line break"
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
2. Yeah, great mindset, dude. *I* use the *AUSSIE METHOD*! So no fuckin' WAY I'M gonna be plummeting off the ramp in my harness while the glider flies away empty.
Get fucked.
whos fault is it ?
Do any of those procedures provide for the enforcement of the aforementioned USHGA hook-in check regulation? Just kidding.Dan Johnson - 2013/11/30 05:34:13 UTC
There are now in place, procedures about this for USHPA sanctioned contests, due to a lawsuit because of a FTHI.
Yeah. It's physically impossible for the Pilot In Command to verify that he's safely hooked in and has his leg loops without an assistant. If there were a practical way to do this everybody would be doing it already.The pilot in command STILL has a duty to ensure he gets the assistance, IMHO.
The fucking hang check...But maybe the pilot, in the OP has come to see the ground crew as a crutch. And that can lead to crutches and worse, whatever the methodology is.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In
...is the worst goddam crutch this idiot sport has ever come up with for foot launched hang gliding. It's comparable to the Hewett Link it adopted as the focal point of a safe towing system.Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
DO A HOOK IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
That's not how and when a competent pilot checks, dude.The point is, if the bitch-out reinforces the lesson, good thing, but then you have to look at yourself, because YOU forgot to check in the first place!
So what's your take on the assholes at USHGA who are addressing safety issues by distributing red rubber FOCUSED PILOT wristbands? "I'm a FOCUSED PILOT so no fuckin' way will *I* ever:Steve Corbin - 2013/11/30 05:48:47 UTC
The most valuable thing you can tell any newbie:
Your ego is your own worst enemy.
- launch:
-- unhooked
-- minus leg loops
- think I can fix a bad thing on tow and not want to start over
- not be prepared for a line break"
See above.Come on guys, help me out by posting examples of this.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682We've all seen examples of it, guys whose head is too big for his helmet, resents anyone even suggesting he might be wrong...
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
Does THAT total fucking asshole do it for ya?Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
Or himself. But NEVER admits that it's a stupid dangerous way to land that frequently bites pretty much everyone who practices it - sometimes fatally....then we watch him launch:
Unhooked, Vario not adjusted. Truck keys in pocket, driver stranded. Glider bag left at set-up area. Dog in locked truck with windows up. failure to give driver adequate beer money. Doesn't kiss girlfriend, wonders why she went home with me. Whacks hard, blames it on the wind. Blames poor landing on paraglider "in the way".
Doesn't buy driver lunch. Complains about Obama, when we all know it's McConnells and Boehners fault. etcetera.
And I automatically don't like you. It's really hard for me to go wrong with this strategy.Tom Emery - 2013/11/30 07:06:05 UTC
San Diego
I like the Aussie hook in method.
1. And since it doesn't do anything more to catch your leg loops than the idiot fucking hang check does you may end up watching it fly away with your glider and parachute in the second or two you may have before you hit the rocks.No matter what happens... that harness is going for a flight.
2. Yeah, great mindset, dude. *I* use the *AUSSIE METHOD*! So no fuckin' WAY I'M gonna be plummeting off the ramp in my harness while the glider flies away empty.
Get fucked.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClx_UTDm2U
Mike Barber - Part 2/4
6:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClx_UTDm2U
- hook-in status
- leg loops
- basetube/downtube junctions pins
- sidewires
I can look at my basetube/downtube junctions while I'm standing in launch position and put that matter to rest.
Worrying about the sidewires causes me to think about whether or not I had done the preflight sidewire load test. If I hadn't I don't really worry about it because I:
- do them so frequently - after damn near all setups and prior to damn near all breakdowns
- I'm very careful with my wires in the course of setup and breakdown
- visually inspect my wires as I'm assembling the control frame and running other preflight inspections
I think hard about whether my harness to hang loop connection is secure 'cause I screwed that pooch once before. But, consequently, I'm always on pretty high alert status when I make the connection - almost always before I get into the harness. And if I weren't quite certain about the connection I'd always have the option of putting the glider down and turning around.
So then I'm free to focus all my nervousness on the most critical issues of whether or not I'm (still) hooked in and have my leg loops and respond exactly like Chris Valley here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7Ym4O38SA
I go into lift and tug fidget mode - if there's not enough air to keep my glider floated.
And I don't worry about much else in the way of equipment issues 'cause there's not much else in the way of equipment issues worth worrying about.
2. You don't do this 'cause if you did you'd be saying something about it.
2. That pooch screw will be revealed by a preflight sidewire load test. You don't do them 'cause if you did you'd be saying something about it.
3. It's impossible to make that mistake on most modern glider designs.
4. I think it's a safe bet that we have more gliders fold up because of sidewire failures than incomplete assemblies but you don't do the preflight sidewire load test.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
2. You haven't said a single fucking word about hook-in checks or participated in any of the discussions on unhooked launches following any of the disasters. Go fuck yourself.
- setting up a garage sized tent and posting armed guards to keep people at a safe distance until you complete your sacred assembly and preflight rituals and emerge into the sun and air ready for action?
- then using these armed guards to retrieve the extra clothing layer, cell phone, and sunscreen from the car, adjust your wing camera and protect you from verbal exchanges with pilots and wuffos while you proceed to the ramp, organize your crew, and launch?
You can't prevent distractions and you don't want to. A distraction might be running up to the ramp to help get a glider under control in a wind surge so he doesn't blow into your glider. So you need procedures that are distraction proof. We have one:
Mike Barber - Part 2/4
6:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClx_UTDm2U
Everybody does - to some extent or other. Just the act of setting up the glider forces a fairly high degree of preflight inspection. And it's a bit difficult to pick up a glider and move it to launch without a lot of the critical issues taken care of.The Pre-Flight Check
I ALWAYS do a preflight.
1. *I'M* always nervous on launch. 'Cause I'm always worried about several critical issues:Um... I've had people say "You're nervous on takeoff." Why... I mean... You know... When I'm doing my preflights and it's, yes, I'm nervous because... I've forgotten things.
- hook-in status
- leg loops
- basetube/downtube junctions pins
- sidewires
I can look at my basetube/downtube junctions while I'm standing in launch position and put that matter to rest.
Worrying about the sidewires causes me to think about whether or not I had done the preflight sidewire load test. If I hadn't I don't really worry about it because I:
- do them so frequently - after damn near all setups and prior to damn near all breakdowns
- I'm very careful with my wires in the course of setup and breakdown
- visually inspect my wires as I'm assembling the control frame and running other preflight inspections
I think hard about whether my harness to hang loop connection is secure 'cause I screwed that pooch once before. But, consequently, I'm always on pretty high alert status when I make the connection - almost always before I get into the harness. And if I weren't quite certain about the connection I'd always have the option of putting the glider down and turning around.
So then I'm free to focus all my nervousness on the most critical issues of whether or not I'm (still) hooked in and have my leg loops and respond exactly like Chris Valley here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7Ym4O38SA
I go into lift and tug fidget mode - if there's not enough air to keep my glider floated.
And I don't worry about much else in the way of equipment issues 'cause there's not much else in the way of equipment issues worth worrying about.
2. You don't do this 'cause if you did you'd be saying something about it.
BULLSHIT. You can be as careful as you want and it won't do a goddam thing to lower your chances of launching unhooked. What WILL virtually ELIMINATE your chances of launching unhooked is...And there's pilots... Eventually, if you're not careful - VERY careful - you will forget to hook in...
...FEAR. And I'm absolutely ASTOUNDING at doing fear 'cause I've got an IQ above the mid double digit range - and that's all it really takes.Rob Kells - 2005/12
Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
1. Nope. Screwed that pooch too and the control frame disassembled while I was moving the glider to the ramp. That's not a mistake anyone makes twice.- or you will forget a pin and have the glider fold up.
2. That pooch screw will be revealed by a preflight sidewire load test. You don't do them 'cause if you did you'd be saying something about it.
3. It's impossible to make that mistake on most modern glider designs.
4. I think it's a safe bet that we have more gliders fold up because of sidewire failures than incomplete assemblies but you don't do the preflight sidewire load test.
This is total bullshit. You cite some data, anecdotal evidence, incident reports of serious problems that have been consequences of interrupted routines. About the ONLY crap you can come up with are assholes who REFUSE to do hook-in checks blaming wuffos for their dangling carabiners and missed leg loops.When you do your setup don't talk to anyone, do not let anyone distract you... This is very important. To break your routine... Never break your routine.
Awesome advice there, Mike. Reminds me a fair bit of this one:Don't have any distraction.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
How 'bout advising us not to land when the air is light and switchy?Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 12:47:39 UTC
So my suggestion is, don't break your weak link and it won't cause you any problems.
1. And so that makes you very well qualified to be advising people on how to launch safely connected to their gliders.Then... I always preflight again and always do hang checks 'cause I've launched unhooked... I've forgotten my belly's band, I've forgotten my leg straps...
2. You haven't said a single fucking word about hook-in checks or participated in any of the discussions on unhooked launches following any of the disasters. Go fuck yourself.
So how come you're not following your own advice - which is not to have any distraction? Why aren't you:ALL of them ALWAYS due to a distraction.
- setting up a garage sized tent and posting armed guards to keep people at a safe distance until you complete your sacred assembly and preflight rituals and emerge into the sun and air ready for action?
- then using these armed guards to retrieve the extra clothing layer, cell phone, and sunscreen from the car, adjust your wing camera and protect you from verbal exchanges with pilots and wuffos while you proceed to the ramp, organize your crew, and launch?
You're totally full of shit. DISTRACTIONS and DISRUPTIONS HAPPEN. They are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT INEVITABLE and UNAVOIDABLE and telling people to be "very very careful" is totally fucking useless.So... That part... Be very very careful.
You can't prevent distractions and you don't want to. A distraction might be running up to the ramp to help get a glider under control in a wind surge so he doesn't blow into your glider. So you need procedures that are distraction proof. We have one:
You refuse to use or teach it - so shut the fuck up.With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
- Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 9161
- Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC
Re: You are NEVER hooked in.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30386
whos fault is it ?
- an assembly procedure that's a better approach for most circumstances but is a moronic means of dealing with the unhooked launch issue
- a procedure for checking bar clearance which is useless for everything else and deadly as a means of dealing with the unhooked launch issue
- a pretty much bulletproof hook-in check that you don't really understand and appreciate
It's physically impossible to start your launch sequence from a kneeling position or with the glider parked on the ramp while you're turned around looking at your suspension - as per the bullshit Joe Greblo insists on teaching. And we've got tons of data proving that the bullshit Joe Greblo insists on teaching DOESN'T WORK. If you're physically unable to lift the glider to the point at which the straps get tight there are easy workarounds that allow you to verify connection status and leg loops with the glider trimmed and on your shoulders at the beginning of the launch sequence.
People have launched unhooked with results ranging from inconsequential through mostly killed to entirely and instantly killed because they were more focused on helmet issues than they were about being connected to their fucking gliders. Helmet issues have undoubtedly precipitated more unhooked launches than camera, radio, or cell phone issues - quite possibly combined.
Your chances of needing to be hooked in for any given flight are one hundred percent - and it's a real good idea to be in your leg loops.
Your chances of having a helmet do you any good on any given flight are close to nonexistent.
Your chances of having suffering consequences because your helmet wasn't buckled on any given flight are about 0.1 percent of nonexistent.
Note that this guy here:
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/babymother.jpg
...at Long Mynd on 2013/05/26 is about to have a fairly mild crash which will put him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life and his buckled EN966 certified Icaro 4fight LT helmet isn't gonna do him a lot of good.
After you finish with assembly and preflight in the setup area take a deep breath and ten seconds to think if there's anything you might have missed.
When you're on the LAUNCH ramp your in LAUNCH mode - and all you should be concerned about is your LAUNCH sequence. And your LAUNCH sequence MUST begin with a verification of your connection and leg loops. Stay with that and you'll be fine. Get more creative than that and you're upping your odds of being killed. And stay with that mindset when you're crewing for someone else.
whos fault is it ?
No. That's:airhog2007 (Bill) - 2013/11/30 12:55:25 UTC
I do Aussie as well. Then do another hang check. Once on the launch I lift the glider to feel the tug. Is that three?
- an assembly procedure that's a better approach for most circumstances but is a moronic means of dealing with the unhooked launch issue
- a procedure for checking bar clearance which is useless for everything else and deadly as a means of dealing with the unhooked launch issue
- a pretty much bulletproof hook-in check that you don't really understand and appreciate
No.Anyway, a couple topics down is a training film put together by a pilot...
For it's stupidity value....who had no leg loops. Kind of a must-see.
I'm sure you do.Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/30 16:19:27 UTC
I stress on the training hill that we are learning to get our selves into a special state of high attention to FOCUS.
Yeah. Fuck it.I work hard at this when doing anything dealing with setup and launching, me or anyone else.
Isn't it great when crappy approaches are pains in the asses. Helps extinguish the behavior.I realize it is not always easy.
No there aren't. Mike Barber has instructed us to not have them.There are many distractions.
Good.Plus the socializing aspect of our sport leads us to break our concentration.
You consider almost certain death to be a present? Oh well, whatever floats your boat.I use the presents of almost certain death...
Just not within the two second window during which shit matters....to bring myself to focus.
Just not within the two second window during which shit matters.Even if it is your death.
Fuck your goddam idiot hang checks.Not quite as bad if I fail hang checking you I have made mistakes hang checking but others or the pilot have caught it.
In the two seconds prior to launch. But nobody's tuned in at that point because that hang checks were taken care of a long time ago.More eyes the better.
I just find it to be a total waste of time - so I don't do it and don't hafta deal with the nervousness issue.Hang Checking makes me nervous because there are so many different harness setups.
Especially the ones that don't matter.Know your own and check every item.
What would you put on it that mattered?A list would be good.
How many unhooked launches have they precipitated?I use a verbal list .
One thing that makes me nervous these days is all the ganged up hang straps that I see. Seems pilots make an adjustment then just leave the knotted up mess
The fear level I have in the two second window prior to commitment is a fifteen - so I don't hafta worry about attention issues.Aviation always requires a commitment of attention that is a 9.5 or 10 on the attention scale. We normally operate at about a 4 , maybe a 6 while driving.
We know how to prevent it. But nobody's interested because they've all been well focused during their setup and preflight procedures and don't permit distractions - so there's really no need.Karl Allmendinger - 2013/11/30 17:19:38 UTC
Silicon Valley
Glad to see this topic has moved from 'Whose fault is it?' to 'How can it be prevented?'
If your parachute's made it to the ramp without spilling out of the container it's highly unlikely to deploy right after you run off. Stop fucking around with relatively trivial, statistically insignificant preflight bullshit before you approach the ramp.I suggest habits, not in place of attention but in addition to attention. Make it a habit to check it all when you first get on launch: hooked in, leg loops, parachute pins...
FUCK THE VARIO. Yeah make sure it's on or flip it on if you remember to when you get on the ramp. DO NOT MENTION IT IN A DISCUSSION DEALING WITH THE FALLING-FROM-YOUR-GLIDER ISSUE....vario on.
YES.Make a hook in check part of the launch sequence...
YES....lift the glider and feel the straps get tight...
NO....or kneel for tight straps...
NO....or turn around and look.
It's physically impossible to start your launch sequence from a kneeling position or with the glider parked on the ramp while you're turned around looking at your suspension - as per the bullshit Joe Greblo insists on teaching. And we've got tons of data proving that the bullshit Joe Greblo insists on teaching DOESN'T WORK. If you're physically unable to lift the glider to the point at which the straps get tight there are easy workarounds that allow you to verify connection status and leg loops with the glider trimmed and on your shoulders at the beginning of the launch sequence.
FUCK THE CHINSTRAP. FUCK THE ENTIRE GODDAM HELMET.Fasten the chin strap every time you put on your helmet, even if you're sitting at home fiddling with your radio.
People have launched unhooked with results ranging from inconsequential through mostly killed to entirely and instantly killed because they were more focused on helmet issues than they were about being connected to their fucking gliders. Helmet issues have undoubtedly precipitated more unhooked launches than camera, radio, or cell phone issues - quite possibly combined.
Your chances of needing to be hooked in for any given flight are one hundred percent - and it's a real good idea to be in your leg loops.
Your chances of having a helmet do you any good on any given flight are close to nonexistent.
Your chances of having suffering consequences because your helmet wasn't buckled on any given flight are about 0.1 percent of nonexistent.
Note that this guy here:
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/babymother.jpg
...at Long Mynd on 2013/05/26 is about to have a fairly mild crash which will put him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life and his buckled EN966 certified Icaro 4fight LT helmet isn't gonna do him a lot of good.
Fuck that. You may well be loading multiple gliders and wanting to strap them all down together. Put a windshield wiper up - WITHOUT FAIL.Every time you put a glider on your truck, tie it down right away.
Always have a key stashed on the outside of the vehicle.Give your driver the keys as soon as you park your truck at launch.
Don't worry IN THE SLIGHTEST about distractions. Distractions are part of the fun of the flying day. Enjoy and learn from them. Assume you'll have had them, learn what the actual and major threats are, and establish a few simple procedures to handle the actual and major threats and don't clutter them with trivial crap about varios and helmet buckles.Make all these things and more habits, and beware distractions.
After you finish with assembly and preflight in the setup area take a deep breath and ten seconds to think if there's anything you might have missed.
When you're on the LAUNCH ramp your in LAUNCH mode - and all you should be concerned about is your LAUNCH sequence. And your LAUNCH sequence MUST begin with a verification of your connection and leg loops. Stay with that and you'll be fine. Get more creative than that and you're upping your odds of being killed. And stay with that mindset when you're crewing for someone else.