landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://vimeo.com/36062225
T2 Landing 2/1/2012
Steven Pearson - 2012/02/02 04:49 UTC

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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6016.html#p6016

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVTrBoCqtY
White Bird
Mike Harper - 2014/05/20

Flight from the E with a bad landing. Messed up my heel bone (calcaneus) when I came down too hard. I made a number of mistakes on this landing, including flaring too early and then not holding the flair. Sharing this flight to remind myself and other pilots that we are always at risk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVTrBoCqtY
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVTrBoCqtY[/video]

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- -0 - minutes
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Commitment to launch:

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Hook-in check:

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Great! You ARE hooked in securely! :) Nice view.

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And from the tail camera:

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I notice you're not using wheels. Must've attended one of Ryan's clinics and gotten your flare timing perfected.

Good time to finish getting your hands down on the CONTROL bar where you can safely CONTROL the glider.

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Super! See how easy it was to go from the downtubes to the basetube? Maybe God was trying to tell you something.

Good. You're staying prone with both hands on the basetube. Approach is certainly no time to be adding complications and making control compromises.

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OK, let's get the ol' landing gear freed up.

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Good thing your pod zipper wasn't jammed. Otherwise bellying in would've been the best available option.

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About to turn onto final. Better start getting those hands on the downtubes so's you can have some decent flare authority.

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Damn! Hooked the wire!

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Oh well... Best go for the other downtube at this point.

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Got it! Clean!

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Now let's fix that little problem with the other one...

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DAMN! Hooked it AGAIN!

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OK! Got it CLEAN this time! Now let's land this thing!

Hands up between shoulder and ear height...

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Punch that sucker!

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Damn! After all that you ended up bellying in anyway. After breaking your heel.

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Well... You did your best. That's the important thing.

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!? Image
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!! Image
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I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND Image That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? Image
Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6015.html#p6015
miguel
Posts: 289
Joined: 2011/05/27 16:21:08 UTC

Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Another data point for you:

Recently, a pilot making a wheel landing and proned out, got popped near the ground. He took out a downtube, received a neck injury and got a helicopter ride.

It's not on the org or the retort.
Steve Davy
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Steve Davy »

Is he going to be okay?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Wow. First K*** S****** post in over five and half months and first hang gliding related K*** S****** post in a week shy of a year. Good to hear from ya.

So what's the data point's point? Would the pilot have been able to handle the pop better...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0


...upright with his hands on the basetube and would his neck have been in better shape...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA


...if his head had been way up high when the glider came to an abrupt stop?

As it was he at least got to take another flight that day - and on an aircraft that's very seldom deliberately whipstalled to a dead stop in the LZ.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Here's my pre-report...

He was coming into some Happy Acres putting green and the conditions near the surface were not the least bit extraordinary.

He was floating it down - not using speed appropriate for the bounciness of the air. If he'd burned it down to the deck the way Niki* does here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM

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his downtube and neck would've finished up just fine.

* The only things that bug me about Niki's landings are that...
- She's flying in glassy smooth air and stuffing the bar way high. Stupid waste of altitude, air/fun/learning time.
- Her approaches are stupidly wide.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVTrBoCqtY
White Bird
Mike Harper - 2014/05/20

Flight from the E with a bad landing. Messed up my heel bone (calcaneus) when I came down too hard. I made a number of mistakes on this landing...
Fuck that. Your main mistakes were - in chronological order:
- leaving the wheels in the closet because you ONLY do stunt landings
- skipping the hook-in check 'cause no fuckin' way YOU'RE ever gonna run off of a launch with your carabiner dangling
...including flaring too early and then not holding the flair.
1. Try holding the FLARE. Or are you hedging your bet 'cause you're not really sure how it's spelled?

2. Even without wheels... Did you NEED to flare AT ALL? Think things would've gone worse if you'd stayed on the basetube and zipped up in your pod the whole way down?
Sharing this flight to remind myself and other pilots that we are always at risk.
Fuck you. Niki here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM
Hang Gliding, Landing on Wheels
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is at virtually ZERO risk of crashing and/or being injured on a landing until you fucking dickheads...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM
Hang Gliding, Landing on Wheels
Niki Longshore - 2014/02/10

Until I master the foot stuff, I'm bound to "training wheels." Basic landing approach (downwind, base, final). Final approach with lots of speed and gentle touch down on wheels. Though I don't know what it's like to land on my feet (yet), I am enjoying the wheels!
...start teaching her how to "master" the foot stuff.
Mike Harper - 78996 - H4 - 2004/07/21 - Rob McKenzie - FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
Fuck you too, Rob.
Doug Prather - 2014/05/21

heal quickly bro, shit happens
Yeah Doug...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3173
somewhat predictable accident at Highland
Allen Sparks - 2008/04/19 01:38:55 UTC

If accidents were 'somewhat predictable', I'd bet we would have fewer :)
_hit happens. There are no recipes that prevent it.
Sometimes shit just happens...

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...and there really are no recipes to prevent it - especially for people who have neither hands nor wheels on the basetube.

Also for people...

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...who should've eased off on the wangs a hundred feet ago.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31279
How to break a heel
Mike Harper - 2014/05/22 01:07:39 UTC
Dana Point, California

Or how not land a hang glider. Last Thursday while Rebar is throwing down an epic triangle covering the Inland Empire and everyone else is skying out, I'm crawling around in the Elsinore LZ talking to myself.

I made a number of mistakes on this approach and landing. First I cut too close to the tree, then didn't get my last turn around far enough because I was having trouble getting my left hand on the DT. Then I flared too early and worse I didn't hold the flare. Anyway here is how not to land a HG. Nice wire slap at 50 sec. A little fun with the Beatles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVTrBoCqtY
Tom Lyon - 2014/05/22 04:19:14 UTC

Wow, that was a heck of a whack.
1. No it wasn't. And all the damage worth mentioning was done before any part of the glider touched the ground.
2. Can you think of any glider equipment that might work reasonably well to prevent or mitigate whacks? Just kidding.
Sorry. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Tom... Over here I share a lot of videos of people doing things which PREVENT death and destruction. How come you never thank ME for any of it?
You have your sense of humor (Beatles songs), so that's good.
Fer sure. And maybe if you survive an unhooked launch in reasonably good shape you could work a little Clapton into the video for me.
When you landed...
Landed?
...were you into the wind?

I was thinking maybe head straight in to land at 2:29 (assuming you weren't pointed at the tree) instead of base and final. Hindsight, I know, I'm just thinking of when I find myself in a similar situation someday.
Good strategy, Tom. Think about WHEN you're gonna be in a similar situation some day.
Thanks again. Healing thoughts for you foot.
Mike Harper - 2014/05/22 04:45:26 UTC

I was going to turn another 45 degrees or so for a crosswind landing. But getting my hand on the DT took all my attention.
Well, the important thing was that you got your hand on the downtube. It's pretty much impossible to land a glider without both hands on the downtubes.
I landed with a quartering tailwind of a maybe five miles per hour. Yeah, going on the other side of the tree would have been a better decision.
Tom Lyon - 2014/05/22 05:04:23 UTC

Thanks again for sharing.
You thanked him for that already.
I don't know that I would have done anything different than you did since hindsight is nothing like being in the actual situation, but I'm just trying to learn.
Yeah Tom, you keep TRYING to learn. I think that's the best we can hope for because ACTUALLY LEARNING anything seems to be totally beyond your capabilities.
I really appreciate you putting this video out there.
Me too. Probably not for the same reasons you do though.
CAL - 2014/05/22 16:13:31 UTC

i hope your heel, heals well, let us know how you are doing? it is frustrating when we know what to do or not to do and we still do it, when i look at my videos i am always catching things that could have turned out worse, bummer you got hurt,
I dunno... The more badly someone gets hurt the greater the possibility someone can be gotten through to. Just break a downtube and there's not a snowball's chance in hell.
though i have done that several times, pulled in and try to take away the flare, what i have been told to do is flare slower so it gives you enough time to evaluate your climb, slightly flare, if you climb fast hold it there until there is no climb then finish the flare, if there is little to no climb finish it then.
Geez. Hard to believe ANYBODY is having ANY landing problems since Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney nailed down all the explanations and solutions for us.
but you will still see me make the same mistake, hang in there ! thanks for sharing
You don't have a fuckin' clue what the fundamental mistake is.
Ryan Voight is coming up with a great article in the USHPA mag soon about landing...
Nobody's actually seen it yet but since Ryan Voight wrote it ya just know it's gonna be a great article.
...it pretty much sums up all we need to know to land these birds
1. I thought Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney did that for us already.
2. And then we're gonna see a really dramatic reduction in landing incidents.
3. Where the fuck is Jonathan when your really need him?

Ten posts so far and not even the most oblique reference to the issue of wheels or skids.
miguel
Posts: 289
Joined: 2011/05/27 16:21:08 UTC

Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Steve Davy - 2014/05/22 19:49:40 UTC

Is he going to be okay?


Yes, he is walking, and talking. He had some sort of cervical fusion and is healing.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/05/22 20:16:05 UTC

Wow. First K*** S****** post in over five and half months and first hang gliding related K*** S****** post in a week shy of a year. Good to hear from ya.

So what's the data point's point? Would the pilot have been able to handle the pop better...


The data point is that wheel landings are not a panacea. :o

I think there would have been less physical damage if upright, but who is to say?

I read fairly regular and refer folks here, occasionally.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Yes, he is walking, and talking. He had some sort of cervical fusion and is healing.
So this was a real serious, permanent damage one that happened some time ago and - very conspicuously - hasn't been reported by ANYONE involved. That sound fishy to anyone besides T** at K*** S******?

Reasons for not reporting serious injury incidents:
a) don't give a flying fuck about the sport and its participants
b) something to hide
c) all of the above

It's damn near always...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident
Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
..."c".
The data point is that wheel landings are not a panacea. :o
Well DUH! :o If they were then you could spend half an hour in the morning at Dockweiler teaching a first timer to foot launch then take him up to Kagel in the afternoon and throw him off into strong thermal conditions. There's stuff you've gotta learn to do that happens PRIOR TO the final four seconds of the flight.

One of those things is to come in with enough speed to handle whatever conditions you're dealing with - gusts, lulls, thermals, shifts, rotor, shadow, gradient. This person didn't do that.
I think there would have been less physical damage if upright...
Bullshit.
...but who is to say?
I am - in no uncertain terms.
Recently, a pilot making a wheel landing and proned out, got popped near the ground.
He got popped because he wasn't carrying enough speed for the conditions. Since he was proned out he then had the option of stuffing the bar to the glider's certified configuration limit. Assuming he started doing things right at that point - and he probably did - it was too little too late.

And if that's the case we're not talking about a landing from that point on. We're talking about the best options for crashing. And, as I've said zillions of times before, I have zero interest in Dave Hopkins discussions on the best crash strategies.

The only thing worth discussing on this one was AIRSPEED. There's no argument that he had enough of it and, with all of the total unbelievable lunacy that's accepted as indisputable fact in this sport, NO ONE - not even Dennis Pagen, Davis Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight - claims that you can get higher airspeed easier by being upright.

He would've indisputably been in WORSE shape to regain control of the glider if it been upright.

Could he have been in better shape to survive the inevitable CRASH at that point? I doubt it 'cause you're gonna go in head first no matter what and if you're ALREADY prone your had doesn't have all that potential energy to convert to kinetic while it's rotating down and forward. But... Possibly. But... Who the fuck cares?

This guy let himself get stalled at six feet off the deck and paid a very heavy price. But ANY of us can teach ANY Day One student the zero skill procedure for one hundred percent bulletproofing himself from that possibility.

While we don't have a report on this one beyond the two short sentences you gave us seven posts back we DO have a total DREAM report on Mike Harper's incident in the form of a beautiful high definition video and his...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31279
How to break a heel
Mike Harper - 2014/05/22 04:45:26 UTC

I landed with a quartering tailwind of a maybe five miles per hour.
...account of the conditions in the LZ. (He undoubtedly means starboard stern quarter given his approach pattern/intent.)

In that case wheels and the intent to use them would've been a TOTAL panacea for every relevant issue:
- wire entanglement - times two
- resulting inability to fly the intended pattern
- downwind final
- crappy runway option
- overly aggressive flare
- underly aggressive flare hold
- whack

And wheels and the intent to use them would be a TOTAL ONE HUNDRED PERCENT PANACEA for damn near every landing incident you wanna name - including this one:

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(if he'd been intending to use wheels he'd have never been considering a waist high wheat field as an option) - and the vast majority of the serious incidents in this sport overall.
I read fairly regular and refer folks here, occasionally.
Thanks for both. We're never gonna have any participation beyond what we have now but at least WHEN people who've been referred here fuck themselves up bigtime we can say, "Tough shit, motherfucker. We tried to warn you and you had the opportunity. Sometimes choices have consequences."
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