If it is then what's the point of having a weak link between the primary bridle end and thimble?
Short answer... There isn't anymore.
Too much information answer...
Gawd I was stupid in the early stages. Nowhere near as stupid as the sport's always been but, nevertheless...
Started out with a nylon bridle. Wanted to make it as wrap resistant as possible so I tapered the cut, folded back and stitched to form the eye, whipped the folded back tapered length with dental floss:
(By that point I'd at least figured out the elastic materials anywhere in tow systems were really bad things so that bridle is New England Sta-Set polyester (Dacron).}
But, while the taper was a good (but not great) direction, I had engineered in two real problems which amplified each other - increased mass and stiffness at the end. A lot like the cheap crap...
...everybody uses - better on the taper, much worse on the stiffness.
I never had a wrap but always felt the roughness during the feed through the tow ring.
The Ridgely tandems were using my bridle and when they had a wrap and lost the bridle (secondary weak link blow) I suddenly realized I'd been barking up the wrong tree.
By that time I'd started developing the Shear Links and I thought I could get away with just stitching a leechline loop (eye) to the end of a straight cut ten foot length of Sta-Set. Same as this (bottom end):
'cept just a short loop/eye for the primary release pin to engage. You can see it from the side here:
Was too generous with the heatshrink for a few flights and welded another bridle to the tow ring because of the stiffness issue but fixed that problem by chopping the heatshrink down to the minimum you see above.
But punching out a Ribbon Bridle is a daylong rather complex project I never wanna repeat.
But, backing up a bit, my mindset for a long time - reflected in the photo you referenced - was...
Primary Bridle wrap following a release or Primary Weak Link blow, the Secondary Weak Link on the bottom end of the Primary Bridle blows, the Primary Bridle is temporarily out of commission at best and permanently lost at worst. So with a one and a half G Bridle Link you're all set to go back up pro toad if you don't have a spare two point bridle readily available.
But then when I was getting Zack set up the way I'd get myself set up if I were gonna do it again I threw out the Ribbon Bridle concept and went with the full length spliced hollow braid bridle with a heavy conventional string weak link on the top end.
And then when I was trying to figure out the best way to deal with the bottom end...
What the fuck... Just use a Bridle Link you can easily dial into whatever strength you want and if you wanna be ready to fly one point just have a one and a half G one stored in your harness.
That was before Zack Marzec demonstrated just how close to certain death a pro toad could be - one powerful thermal plus one functioning of the focal point of a safe towing system at any point between the tug and glider - so fuck being ready to go one point in any conditions worth flying in. Just have a spare two point bridle, primary weak link, and Bridle Link.
Discussions when this was happening on the first couple pages of the "Releases" thread.
Thanks for noticing, thinking, asking the right questions. This is about the only place in the English speaking hang gliding universe - cyber or nuts and bolts - where those sorts of things happen.
P.S. Just added a couple of photos (you've seen many times before) to my previous post.
Platform Launching (PL)
Of all the towing methods there are to tow a hang glider aloft I most prefer Platform Launching. Of course this assumes that one can afford to mount a winch/real on your chosen tow vehicle or trailer. If money is a big part of the equation one could easily find Static Towing (ST) as their most preferred method.
Spelling and grammar need some work.
If money wasn't an issue I would still prefer Platform Launching (PL) over Aero-Towing (AT). I even prefer PL towing over Foot Launching (FL).
You EVEN prefer platform over foot? Who the hell with half a brain or better WOULDN'T?
Each method has it's own advantages and disadvantages when compared to one another.
Foot launching - from a safety perspective - has ZERO advantages. It's an evil necessary to exploit some environments and circumstances.
Also... The less foot that's involved the safer it is. THIS:
for all practical purposes, is a platform tow launch.
- The glider:
-- has already attained safe launch airspeed when stationary on the launch surface
-- is being held level for the pilot
- The harness suspension is tensioned.
- The pilot:
-- starts out with and keeps both hands on the basetube
-- need only nose the glider up a bit to be up and away
During the early R&D years of static towing using the Hewitt Skyting Bridle someone had come up with a "Threaded bridle," idea.
- You didn't R&D the "Hewitt" Skyting Bridle enough to figure out that his name isn't spelled with an "i".
- There WAS NO R&D of the Hewett Skyting Bridle. If there had been it would never have existed. It was just a cheap dangerous Rube Goldberg tangle of junk thrown into the air based upon completely untested assumptions based upon a bogus understanding of high school physics.
The desire being to not have a bridle along for the entire flight.
BULLSHIT. The original Hewett Bridle, which was the single most dangerous piece of junk ever deliberately put on an aircraft without the intention of bringing it down, went down with the towline - IF you were real fuckin' lucky. You pulled a panic snap connected at your waist which then shot out through your hand and - if you were lucky - autotriggered a second panic snap at the keel which then slammed down on your helmet (if you'd forgotten that you'd been told you needed to have your head way off to one side before you pulled the panic snap at your waist (ask me how I know)) on its way back to the runway.
Problems with not gathering up the drooping bridle could be snagging the ground when landing or stepping on the bridle during a running landing.
- The person who started releasing a two-to-one bridle at the towline connection and bringing it back down with the glider was Heber Itzhak of Israel. Donnell published his report in the 1984/02 issue of Skyting and then total ignored his work - the same way he always ignored any better technology and advancements of his own technology if they didn't fit into his lunatic assumptions about how things should be done.
- The Skyting version of the threaded bridle started getting incorporated into Donnell's system at about the same time and he discussed it in the following issue. It was also insanely dangerous junk which continued to go down with the towline - if it didn't snag the glider.
- So did anyone ever actually snag or trip on a trailing bridle during a landing?
In the early '80s we were given a demo of a fixed line tow system complete with spring gauge, spaghetti bridles, rings, string and chunks of metal at longbow tensions positioned in front of the pilot's face.
The release was some kind of boat shackle that required about same continual tugging to actually release as it does for me to untangle my mobile phone charger.
After release the line had to unthread itself from various rings before the glider was actually free from a rather pathetic tow launch.
This was utter, utter crap, the whole setup and we (rather unkindly) laughed.
I am shocked to see so many elements of this system still in existence today.
Duh.
My HG friend Don Ray agreed we should try it out.
Yeah...
- I think I'd have agreed that you should try that out. Maybe you could get Bob to try it out too.
- Just throw it up into the air and see what happens. Don't bother doing any ground testing, thinking things through, considering that there might be better ways to do the job.
Once released at the keel the bridle, while unthreading, snagged the right front nose wire...
As opposed to the right REAR nose wire.
...as Don was gusted 90 degrees to tow and it locked him out.
Bullshit. The whole idea of the Hewett Bridle was to prevent lockouts. That couldn't POSSIBLY have happened.
It unengaged itself from the nose wire and next wrapped and snagged at the towline ring near the release...
It didn't wrap at the tow ring near the release because there was no release near the tow ring. The release was at the keel - and stayed there.
...for a instant before slipping free.
See? It unengaged itself. Besides, you were using an Infallible Weak Link, weren't you? Just how bad do you think things could've gotten?
Next on the way to unthreading from the carabineer...
Yeah Bill, Davis spells it that way so it must be OK.
...near his crotch the bridle rope...
What's the difference between a bridle rope and a bridle?
...end snapped him on the testicle. (Not sure which one.)
Probably the roundish one.
It wrapped and hung up at the carabineer near his crotch until Don untangled it to finally be free of the towline and threaded bridle.
When Don landed he said, "We are done with this threaded bridle BS!"
- Is that what he said? Or are you just abbreviating it because Bob breaks out in a rash at the sound of foul language - unless you're calling Tad an asswipe.
- Did you ever bother to look at the Brooks Bridle - asshole?
He described the event as having knocked the thrill of flight instantly to 1.5 on a scale of 100.
- Donnell damn near killed himself the same way on Skyting Bridle 1.0.
- That lunatic unleashed a cancer on hang gliding which none of us are ever gonna live long enough to see the end of.
I too had my share of wraps and capture events using a threaded bridle.
No shit. You used the same crap in the same conditions and didn't get different results. Who'da thunk.
And did you ever put a nanosecond's worth of thought towards engineering something better or effort looking around to see if anyone else had engineered anything better? Just kidding.
Aero-towing uses a threaded bridle to this day.
Yeah Bill, aerotowing uses a threaded bridle which can snag the right front nose wire while you're being gusted ninety degrees from the tow direction, lock you out, disengage itself, wrap at the tow ring for a instant before slipping free, snap a testicle while unthreading from the carabineer near your crotch, and wrap at that carabineer.
Sadly the back up on a three point attachment is also threaded.
- Fuck anybody and everybody who refers to two point as three point.
- There is no "back up" for a two point system - there's a SECONDARY.
- Yeah Bill, you have to make the secondary bridle long enough to be capable of wrapping. If there were some way to do it better everybody would be doing it that way already.
Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.
Tad must have put hour upon hour of gathering together his written procedure.
Try ACTUALLY READING my procedures sometime.
(My least favorite towing method for this primary reason.)
Yeah Bill. That's the big problem with aerotow operations. Threaded bridle systems. Not Davis Links, Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors, inaccessible bent crap posing as releases, pro toad bridles, and total assholes at the front end of the string constantly poised to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope. Pick something that's NEVER ONCE resulted in a glider crash and go nuts about it and ignore everything that's crashing gliders like they're going out of style.
And don't forget to tell use how we all really need to use really light weak links so's when our releases ice up our drivers can floor it and blow us off tow.
And DO studiously ignore all the work we've done on making bridles wrap proof and resistant and dealing with wraps within a second or less with both hands on the basetube.
Pro-Tow to the two shoulder straps reduces the risk of a wrap and capture of a threaded bridle...
- Fuck anybody and everybody who refers to one point as Pro-Tow.
- One point totally ELIMINATES the risk of a wrap...
Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here: http://www.ozreport.com/9.039#0
and: http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.
...in a short clinic, if he thinks it a possibility, under supervised conditions in evening air.
I was not there, I can only tell you what I have been told.
He was scooter towing and using a barrel release.
The release bridle got caught in the weak link loop at the end of the tow line.
The rope was cut by the operator.
The rope went slack and he made a 90 degree turn away from the turnaround pulley and the rope caught something else on the ground causing lockout.
Just hook a three string directly up to the weak link. Don't bother with a tow ring. Those things are really hard and could hit people stupid enough to use nylon bridles if something breaks.
The capture event is greatly reduced.
It was until you took the tow ring out of the system anyway.
The towlines angle from the platform tow vehicle greatly reduce the lock out over the top concern.
- Has anybody ever had an over the top lockout on a:
-- payout winch?
-- two point aerotow?
- The towline's angle from the platform tow vehicle also greatly reduce the efficiency of the climb - along with the towline drag and weight as you start getting some altitude.
- The width of the tow road also greatly reduces the driver's ability to hunt for and drop you off in a thermal.
The second biggest reason I prefer PL to AT...
You don't know shit about AT. You don't even know as much shit as the shitheads who run AT know about AT.
...is that the glider is lifting off of a true tracking platform with PL as opposed to a meandering aero-tow, launch dolly or Ground Launch Vehicle (GLV) that sometimes takes you in your desired general direction.
- NOBODY calls a cart or dolly a "Ground Launch Vehicle (GLV)".
- Bullshit. You cite a report or show me a video of a problem with a meandering cart.
- ATers who aren't total shitheads...
...have the ability to abort problematic tows at any instant they choose.
(After personal research I have come to the conclusion that there is little to no effect attenuating the meandrous path of an aero-tow launch dolly with the use of prayer alone.)
You're totally full of shit. Do you have any fuckin' clue as to how many flights these big commercial Dragonfly operations haul up on good weekends and during events and competitions? Even with the all the pro toad bridles and other TOTAL JUNK they use for equipment the ONLY statistically significant problems they have are consequences of...
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
...your precious fucking Davis Links. Jonathan's cart...
One might say forget the weaklink and release and just foot launch.
If you tow you might as well say forget the weak link and release. The crap they force you to use for weak links is a thousand times more likely to crash you than to do you any good and the Industry Standard releases are all one hundred percent useless...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...in ANYTHING remotely resembling an emergency - but when done as shoddily as it is it blows slope/ramp/slot/cliff launching away as far as crash rate is concerned.
When platform launching you need not commit to launching until you are well above stall speed.
- Do you need to commit to it then?
- And this differs from dolly launching how?
Comparing that to the foot launch ramp I sometimes have to run to get past stall speed and find myself closer to the risk of a tip stall and more easily being turned back into the cliff or hill.
Dave Seib and Grant Bond come to mind. So have you told Peter Birren...
Nothing personal but I'll pass on platform launching. I've thoroughly convinced myself that platform is just shy of aerotow-risk level. What spooks me is the high speed (35 mph) that close to the ground. Broken ribs and more from a blown aero launch drove that point home for me.
Jeez, two tug pilots killed so far this year and they're holding tow-me-up-Scottie Nats.
Call me old-fashioned, I never towed. If I can't footlaunch off a mountain, I'm not interested.
Besides, what could be more boring than drifting over flat land?
But that's just me being a curmudgeon.
Have fun if you think that's what fun is.
-- Spoiled by Owens Valley
...to go fuck themselves?
Also if I sink out I most often can make multiple attempts PL towing whereas foot launching requires a longer turn around time between landing and launching again. It's tough turning the wind direction or even the hill into the wind but towing into the wind with a platform tow launch vehicle is the easier of the three.
Foot launching into a crosswind is less safe than PL into a crosswind.
If a road or runway doesn't line up with the wind you can effectively make the wind do it.
For instance if the wind is blowing 10 mph forty-five degrees from the left, when you start down the road or runway, by the time you are going 10 miles per hour you at this point have a effective cross wind angle of 22.5 degrees which is half of what you started with. I'll let you do the math since you will be accelerating next to 20 mph. What now will be you relative crosswind direction?
But you are still going to accelerate another ten miles per hour to thirty miles per hour before you commit to launching. What now will be your effective crosswind direction?
The answer is, barely perceptible. Not even worth dragging out a pen and paper or calculator to do the math.
If the flight parks insist on the use of a standard, each pilot still has the ability to blow the pilots weaklink with more tow force or less tow force just by increasing or decreasing the length of the shoulder to shoulder pro tow bridle.
The shorter the pro tow bridle the less tug force it will take to blow the standard weaklink.
The longer the pro tow bridle the more tug force it will take to blow the standard weaklink.
bullshit.
I was thinking of taking a few of the pluses of PL towing from my post here and start a PL thread in the training manual section of the U.S. Hawks forum.
I think the best way would be to include some of the best ideas and procedures that I and other pilots have picked up from seeing other PL rigs from past experiences and combine them all into the most desirable PL rig.
Going against the grain here, but someone has to point out that the probable best candidate to write a training manual has been banned from this site.
Features that come to mind that I see as worthy of a great PL rig are:
1) Nose over padded stop. (So that the glider cannot nose over and cause damage to the glider or winch operator or anything else for that matter.)
2) Base tube safety pins that keeps the base tube securely fixed into the launching yokes. (Safety pins that pull out from over each side of the base tube that are fast to either push in or pull out.)
3) Adjustable line tension, "on the fly" for the winch/reel. (Not a tension that you are stuck with until just before the next flight.)
4) A nose release actuator for the PL rig that will allow pilots to either hold their body forward or rearward with both hands and not require them to let go of the base tube and underlying hand holds to release the nose of the hang glider.
...WILL require pilots to let go of the base tube.
Hand holds under each side of the base tube so that premature lift off is not possible. (Tangle free hand holds designed to not snag any lines, cords, or wires.)
5) Airspeed indicator visible to both driver and pilot.
6) Constant transmit capability for the pilot while under tow. (Pilot in command - Not for students.)
A student on a glider IS a fucking Pilot In Command.
(TX must be clear with no air noise.)
7) Checklist waterproofed and on the PL rig right in front of the pilots face.
There's supposed to be an apostrophe in "pilots". And when the care and/or competence in writing is as such...
...one should trust in the validity of the checklist and competence of the operation accordingly.
(A duplicate checklist in view of the driver. Pilot goes through the checklist over the radio while the driver makes sure nothing is skipped.)
8) Level wind on the winch/reel for line retrieval.
9) PL rig designed to allow the pilots to load their gliders onto the launching platform while already hooked into the hang strap. (This would be a big time saver if many pilots were in a ready, queue, line waiting on the same platform tow rig.)
10) Safe seating for the winch operator and or observer.
Yeah, make sure that that guy has everything going for him 'cause everybody and his dog knows that there's no way in hell the "Pilot In Command" is ever gonna be able to blow himself off tow when his life depends upon him doing so.
What am I overlooking here? Any input that would make a PL rig the best that it could be?
- A release that doesn't stink on ice? Just kidding.
- The rating of the focal point of the safe towing system?
I don't know how one would go about doing it but another desirable feature would be some idea that could, to the extent possible, standardize the length of the nose release cord on each glider so that it would be the correct length on various platform tow rigs.
You're already totally cool with the idea of a one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak link for everyone who gets on a launch dolly. Why not just force everyone to fly the same glider model? You'll probably kill a lot fewer people with that approach.
If this is not possible then a design idea for platform rigs that would allow for a VERY QUICK adjustment for different sizes and models of hang gliders.
Make ADJUSTMENTS for different sizes and models of hang gliders? Are you...
The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
...out of your fucking mind! Just pull a standard length out of your ass, declare it to be ideal for the average glider, and tell everyone who doesn't like it that we all play by the same rules or we don't play and to suck it up and anyone who doesn't like it can go play checkers.
What has been the best solution for this concern that you have seen so far?
Make a line length adjustable? That's a pretty tall engineering order.
Don't you have an aeronautical engineer who's really good with Navier-Stokes equations running your little bastion of free speech over there?
So it's been over four days since Bill asked for some ideas for adjusting line lengths.
- No ideas?
- Worried about breaking your lifetime streak of never having done one single goddam thing to advance any aspect of hang gliding technology?
- Busy plotting the best way to piss all over other people's efforts and make sure they never get into circulation?
I'm sticking with my other comments about the obvious piece of crap release Bob was using.
If he could have released without taking his hands off the basetube, this disaster could have been averted.
Bob Kuczewski - 2013/02/13 05:15:02 UTC
I agree with you Warren. This is one of the areas where Tad is on the right track.
Now that I think about it, two inch increments on the nose release rope/cord would make small differences in the pitch once I considered how far away the pivot axis would be from the nose plate. Two inches makes more sense than 1/2" or 1" increments.
The nose release rope/cord that I have been using actually has two loops.
The bottom one that allows the glider to launch and the upper loop for when you are nowhere close to launching and is used only for what we call the, "Cold Nose Safety."
Once we travel to the run up area of the taxiway, we remove the Cold Nose Safety and do the checklist, take up slack in the towline, and set the winch/reel brake pressure. At the end of the checklist, we read out loud (over the radio), "Nose Is Hot!" (Meaning, of course, that the Cold Nose Safety has been removed and the only thing holding the nose is the launch release.
Next, we are ready to taxi from the run-up area to the runway while announcing over the airport frequency our intension to take off on whatever numbered runway. At this point, the base tube safeties have not been pulled out, yet, since we may encounter crosswinds/thermal before turning into the wind on the active runway.
The command to proceed down the runway for take off MUST sound like this: (for us):
"BAR SAFETIES ARE OUT! GO TO CRUISE!" At this point, I must say that I am not a fan of using the command, "GO TO CRUISE AND ACCELERATE!"
Why? Because I've done it myself and I have seen it done as a PL driver and also observed it happening on Youtube; a pilot fumbling the release and having to try a second and third time to release.
...now we again have two hands on the basetube and we're flying the glider! And that's level at trim in smooth air at altitude with everything going right!
But her big problem, of course, is that she might get hit in one of her testicles as the bridle unthreads.
If your procedure is to accelerate once you have achieved your ideal launching airspeed, and you release late, now you will have more speed than your ideal launch speed.
Yeah, Bill. That's why when somebody's standing on a ramp with a wire crew as the wind starts ramping up beyond thirty miles an hour he doesn't say "Clear!"
Too much speed, with some gliders, can start the adverse yaw and rolling.
Fuck "ADVERSE YAW". You don't have the slightest fucking clue...
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
It's just more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
At my local airport, 4,454' msl and my approx 6,000' average density altitude, 32 mph is the ideal airspeed for launching my all-up weight using a hang glider of 155sq. feet of sail area.
- At your local airport, 4454 MSL and approximately 6K average density altitude, what's your ideal weak link for launching your all-up weight using a hang glider of 155 square feet of sail area?
- Bullshit. You're using an INDICATED airspeed gauge so you're gonna be using the same number as you would at the bottom of Death Valley on a cold winter morning.
This airspeed will be enough in the event of a weak link break, line-break, or a premature release one foot off the platform.
ANY AIRSPEED is enough for the event of a weak link break, line break, or a premature release one foot off the platform! GEEZ!!!
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
...we'd all be using it already?
It is enough airspeed to launch, round-off the climb, and favor either side of the runway or land directly behind the tow vehicle.
Fuck that. All that does is mollycoddle faggots who rejected the tandem training which qualifies them to properly react...
...to an increase in the safety of the towing operation.
With the tow vehicle maintaining 32 mph, and with the glider ascending at 45 degree angle, no way is the glider going to catch the tow vehicle, even if the glider wasn't loosing airspeed, which it is.
Wanna REALLY loose airspeed with the glider climbing at a 45 degree angle?
I see accelerating beyond ideal launch speed not to be a good idea because the winch may, for many different reasons, bind up or even "nest", and not pay-out line. If this were to happen, and you launched late, at a higher airspeed, maintaining control behind the tow vehicle will be less likely. At this point, I would pump the bar out enough to break the weak link, round-off and land.
Why wouldn't you just make the easy reach for your release? Like this guy:
This assumes that my weak link is no more than 1.6 of my all-up weight...in my case, no more than a 350 lb breaking strength.
- Yeah. Sure. Push out and break a 350 pound weak link while you're dancing around low behind a truck going thirty-some miles per hour on a short towline coming off a stuck winch...
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
...and just fly away! Instant hands free release! What could possibly go wrong with a strategy like that?
- Is your Pilot In Command down there in the truck OK with that? Aren't you worried about pulling him into a ditch with that kind of tension?
- So you're cool with a 350 pound 1.6 G weak link for yourself but you're also totally cool with Davis and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...
I last aerotowed using the standard 130 lb Greenspot.
The word standard in our case is really a grasp toward middle ground.
Jim Gaar and I personally find ourselves satisfied with not finding it too strong or too weak.
Heavier pilots with heavier/bigger gliders may find the standard to be too close to the weak side of optimal.
I, like Marc Fink, seem to be on the same page that it is better to be closer to the weak side than the strong side of "standard."
Lighter pilots with lighter gliders may worry that they may be pitched into a break stall with the breaking of the too strong of a "standard" in their case.
...forcing everybody and his dog up on half that weight and half or under that many Gs. Suck my dick, Bill.
- Real bummer that Bob Buxton's winch didn't lock up when he had is bridle routed over the bar. Would've made that disaster a total nonissue.
My platform launch speed of 32 mph also allows for a hydraulic failure of the winch/reel brake.
And MY dolly launch speed of 32 mph also allows for a success of the Dragonfly's breakaway tow mast. There's just no set of circumstances I won't be able to handle WHEN that happens.
I will be able to launch, round-off the climb, release...
Great! No tow tension, glider level and in position, you can actually use your RELEASE to RELEASE! Who'da thunk.
...get upright and land.
Yeah Bill. Fuck Mother Nature. There's just nothing she can dish out that will prevent you from ending up on your feet smelling like a rose.
A slower launch speed will not give me enough time or clearance to land safely.
See above, Bill. And take your crappy argument and shove it up your ass where it belongs.
A faster launch speed starts crowding the too fast and over controlling edge of the operational safety envelope.
Yeah, Bill. OVERCONTROLLING. Not the ADVERSE YAW bullshit.
I'll back up a bit to say, if a pilot would forget to pull out the bar safeties, from over each side of the base tube, and the driver also did not follow procedure and started down the runway without hearing, "Bar Safeties Are Out! Go to Cruise!", there would still be no risk to the pilot or glider.
Well great! Sounds like you have a totally bulletproof system. Nothing can possibly go wrong that you can't deal with. No room for improvement. Totally perfect system.
Once the nose release was activated, the glider would lift off the launching yokes and be stopped from lifting further than a quarter of an inch by the forgotten bar safeties. The glider would be flying safely, captured within the launching yokes. The glider would be unable to leave the launch vehicle. At this point it would be the worst mistake to try and remove the bar safeties. Successfully pulling out only one bar safety would be disastrous.
Why? Sounds like there'd be an immediate major benefit to the gene pool?
The pilot must tell the driver to stop and then get a hand hold on the launch platform so that the tail of the hang glider does not drop and drag on the runway as the vehicle slows to a stop.
Awesome. One would never have thunk that after nearly three decades worth of platform towing people could still be doing so much to make it even better. I'm guessing that after another fifty years or so we'll be seeing a release that can be blown in an emergency.
I hope you do not mind, but I am sending some of your stuff to our local group to aid in our discussions of the same topic. We are in discussions here at AFFA concerning the future use of our winch. It could use a larger trailer. It is set up for foot launch HG and PG. It also does well used in conjunction with an AT dolly (all due deference to your opinion of the contraptions as only a regular PT harness is used). It is not set up for pure platform launch as the trailer is too small to accommodate.
Many of us, particularly old schoolers, want to put the winch on a new and larger trailer set-up for platform launch. Part of the proposed lay out for maximizing tows involves mounting the gliders on the trailer at the pilots lounge area. This is about mid way down the runway/taxiway. As each tow is completed, the tow vehicle would stop and get the next glider at the set up area and head on down to the end of the runway. The question concerns the safety aspects of ferrying an assembled hang glider. We have had two cases here where maneuvering assembled hang gliders has caused nose wire releases resulting in serious injury to both of the pilots.
Damn. If only there were some way to design a glider with a nose wire attachment that couldn't pop off in the course of a platform operation.
Can this be done safely?
Obviously fucking not. If there were everyone would be doing it safely already.
Thanks,
Charlie Schneider
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/04 02:14:52 UTC
Charlie,
Yes you can transport safely from the pilots lounge midway on the taxiway.
Absolutely amazing. What problems WILL hang gliding people be able to solve next. Any thoughts on how to rig things such that a glider with a bridle accidentally routed over the basetube can do anything more productive than drift around behind the truck for a while and wait for the inevitable impact and brain mush? Just kidding.
Here are some suggestions for doing it safely.
First of all every PL rig should have a padded nose over stop so that the nose cannot come down and hurt someone or even the glider.
If you are transporting downwind to the beginning of the runway and there is a significant tail wind once the PL rig stops the tailwind can push the nose forward and down. That's where damage and injury can occur.
Even parked headed into the wind a thermal can break off in front of the PL rig and create a temporary tail wind and cause the tail to raise which lowers the nose of the hang glider if there is no nose over stop. If some emergency stopping of the PL rig should arise the glider yet again can tip nose down due to inertia alone without a nose over stop.
A padded nose over stop alone is not enough. I recommend base tube safety pins, like half inch stainless steel welding rods (flux removed) that can be pushed in a hole at the back of the base tube PL launching yoke, over the base tube, and on out through the front of the base tube yoke. One bar safety pin for each side of the base tubes'...
How many base tubes do you typically have on the typical glider you're platform towing?
...two yokes. On the PL rigs that I have used we bent one end of the welding rod end in a curved "U" shape as a finger catch to pull the pins out.
I also put some light weight weaklink line...
Lightweight weak link line? Does such a material actually exist? I've never heard of any weak link line that doesn't blow at exactly 1.0 Gs.
...at the finger catch that would let the pins dangle once pulled out. (Real weak incase something from the glider or pilots harness should snag the safety pin. If snagged the pin would break loose and go with the pilot.
How weak would that be, Bill? Lotsa times we can't get aerotowed gliders ten feet into the air with 130 pound test. Couldn't the 65 pounds you'd get with that line in that configuration pulling down on one end of your basetube be enough to make the beginning of your flying day go very badly? Tell me about the successes you've had when something from the glider or pilot's harness snagged the safety pin.
I put ever so slightly a bend in the safety pins so that they would slightly bind in the yoke holes and not jiggle out but only come out once pulled.
Ever consider doing the job right and using ball lock pins?
Attach a second cord to the nose of the glider that has to be manually removed at the "run-up," area. (Warm up area at the start of the runway.) This second nose cord or line is called the "Cold Nose Safety." If you accidentally trip the main nose release between the Pilots Lounge and the run-up area you will still have the nose held by the "Cold Nose safety."
Using the bar safeties, nose over stop, and cold nose safety the glider is securely fastened to the PL rig for any event.
Any event other than the issue of the Wills Wing nose wires detaching from the front end of the keel - which is what Charlie was asking about - anyway.
At the run-up area park crossways to the wind at least, do the check list which will include removing the cold nose safety so only the nose release for launching is holding the nose of the hang glider, announce your intention to enter the runway for take off, and finally when turning to line up with the runway into the wind pull out the bar safeties and say over the USHPA radio, "BAR SAFETIES ARE OUT! -GO TO CRUISE!"
Hand holds under the base tube are a must for when the bar safeties are out in case a thermal should try to lift out one side before you have achieved launching speed.
Even safer than that is hook the pilot in at the run-up area.
Sam Kellner - 2014/06/04 03:52:59 UTC
Even safer than that is hook the pilot in at the run-up area.
Take that T*d.
And after all I've written about the dangers of hooking platform launch pilots in at the run-up area!
Hey Sam... How many brother/sister couplings do you have in your recent ancestry? And Bob... Fuck you a few dozen times over for letting your little pigfucker buddy get away with shit like this.
I have used an AT dolly while static towing behind my car on a dirt airstrip.
I used the Skyting Bridle (2/1) when dolly launching.
Anybody who uses the Skyting Bridle for ANYTHING doesn't know what he's doing or talking about.
I'm not clear on how you all are hooking up to the pilot so I thought I should caution you if you are towing from the pilot only with the towline passing below the base tube. Or even above the base tube.
Ya know... With a Koch two stage release you can have the towline above the basetube for launching and below the basetube for after you've climbed out a bit and never have it interfering with the basetube.
I personally would not tow up like that since I would be at the mercy of the tow vehicle. If the winch should bind up and not pay out line I could find myself climbing too fast with the nose pitched up to where I could not get the nose down.
And, of course, there's no fuckin' way that could happen the way you're rigged for platform, right? Ever bothered to read the Eric Aasletten fatality report? The asshole you're talking to was at Hobbs with all the other assholes when he bought it and was one of the assholes who fixed the problem by scattering his ashes at Packsaddle.
That scenario will increase the line tension to the point of popping the weaklink, nose high, and close to the ground.
- Well duh. But that's a GOOD thing, right? Keeps you from getting farther into shit, right?
- So pulling from the pilot only off a launch dolly can increase the line tension to the point of popping the weak link, nose high, and close to the ground. But:
-- what happened to Zack Marzec is a total fucking mystery that neither the professionals who were there nor any of us weekend warrior muppets who weren't will ever be able to understand or alter procedures and equipment to prevent
-- it's perfectly OK not to denounce Quest linking pro toads, Quest linking pro toad promoters, and lying pieces of shit like Dennis Pagen, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Paulen Tjaden, Steve Wendt, Davis Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney
Fuck you, Bill.
Hooking to the pilot only with the towline under the base tube is only suitable for Platform Launching.
Some drivers have been taught to quickly run out in front of the pilot and get some line out so that the pilot is being pulled more forward and not so much down.
You're not pulling the pilot down. He's going UP. You're pulling him UP with greater required tension / less efficiency.
I see this as not being the best procedure. Low angles of tow need a climb restricting bridle to the keel otherwise a situation can arise where being towed too fast will have you helplessly unable to get the nose down with weight shift alone.
So? Then you climb, your tow angle steepens towards what you'd have for platform, the problem of not having a keel attachment evaporates. Self correcting issue.
Can you cite any evidence of this common technique ever causing a problem?
A pilot has complete pitch control while PL towing only if the pilot maintains as close to a 30 to 50 degree angle behind the PL rig.
Bullshit. Nobody EVER has COMPLETE control of ANYTHING in ANY aircraft - 'specially a hang glider. Control in aircraft ALWAYS involves physical limitations, compromises, tradeoffs and there's ALWAYS gonna be stuff that can overwhelm whatever it is we have and what we can do with it.
...but not immune to the pitch up, detach, stall scenario.
Given enough thrust the glider has little option but to raise its angle relative to the horizon and gusty thermic conditions are likely to raise it momentarily still further, despite the pilot's actions.
Bullshit. All of our pilots are trained in short clinics and tandem Cone of Safety exercises how to keep things under control regardless of the bridles they're using and conditions in which they're flying.
Unfortunately 'enough thrust' is well within the bounds of the tensions we normally tow at. (100kg for and average pilot over here. You?)
Given that you can reduce but not eliminate this problem every takeoff is a bit of a lottery (admittedly with reasonably good odds) if you move the weak-link value too close to the tow tensions normally experienced.
Bullshit...
Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
The closer you move the weak link value to the tow tensions normally experienced the less out of control you get. You just don't understand the fundamental physics of hang gilder towing.
It is refreshing to see that you do at least recognise that in some instances a weak-link break could be a problem and is a bit more then a 'non event' some head in sand 'experts' would have us all believe.
- Heads up their asses.
- ALL 'experts' have gotten damn near everyone to swear on the mothers' lives by.
Sorry if this is opening up a can of worms.
PLEASE let it reopen the can of worms. I so do love it whenever stupid people start running their mouths.
You can't just round off tow tensions to "about". What would be the point of establishing a twenty year track record of precision 130 pound / 1.00 G fishing line working if we're gonna round off conversions like that?
Hey Mike,
Good to see you here!
I use 160 Kg as my highest value weaklink for payout towing with a winch/reel with too much rope on it.
Depending on the winch/reel like my High Perspective made in Canada...
Fuck Dead-Eye Mike.
I have used just short of 1100 Meters of 4.8mm of Poly-Pro diamond braid.
Idiot.
4.7625mm = 0.1875 inch which we call here in the USA 3/16"
(I hope that’s correct because my math sucks and speling is my only strong point.)
Anyway, that big winch/reel is able to handle 1100 Meters of 4.7625 mm of line without have too much "nesting," burying, or sinking into the remaining wraps of rope around the winch/reel.
Other smaller sized winch/reels that also have 1100 Meters of line has a lot of nesting that has caused me to up my weaklink strength to my personal maximum of about 160 Kilograms.
Weak links don't protect people or care about personal maximums. They protect shit from getting overloaded. Anybody who talks about a "personal maximum" is a moron.
This makes for non smooth payout and much line abrasion.
Which are problems you don't have in aerotowing.
Most of the operations here use about 56.7 Kilograms...
NOBODY uses ABOUT 56.7 kilograms for ANYTHING.
...or 125 Pounds of tow force for winch payout platform towing.
You don't translate an ABOUT English system figure to a PRECISE metric figure unless you're an asshole.
Without a payout winch/reel, static towing (ST) my weaklink of choice is 99.8 Kilograms saying it our wrong USA way would be about 220 Pounds.
Which would be the rock bottom of the legal range for a glider with a max certified operating weight of 275 pounds if the flavor of static towing were aero.
On Hadley Robinsons stationary hydraulic winch I can use a weaklink as low as 31.75 Kilograms which said improperly here would be 70 Pounds.
And I can fly a glider that folds up at 1.5 Gs as long as I never create or encounter a situation which puts me at 1.5 Gs.
His winch does not pull above that value.
Unless it locks up or you get a line dig. And then you should be very thankful that you're not in a situation in which your fishing line Pilot In Command's decision to dump you will result in anything more serious than inconvenience.
I have never had a weaklink break that caused me to climb into a stall after stuffing the bar.
- Weak link breaks don't cause people to climb into stalls. They cause people at high pitch attitudes and angles of attack to lose thrust, stop climbing, and go down like bricks. Asshole.
- Well that's just great, Bill. 'Cause since YOU'VE never had a serious problem after blowing a Hewett Link that means it's physically impossible for ANYONE to EVER have a serious problem under ANY imaginable circumstances.
As soon as it broke I stuff the bar and it continues to fly.
So why do you think that when Zack Marzec - who was flying with a stuffed bar...
...right off the fuckin' cart - held the stuff after the Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation he continued to rotate into a tumble from which he had zero chance of recovering?
Sorry if this is opening up a can of worms.
No problem. Is there any Ketchup with that?
This can of worms has been open even since idiot Donnell Hewett...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
...decided that reality was never gonna intrude in any of his special little concepts of how things should work.
I had been working on another post about weaklinks that I will post next.
Check it out below ---This is how you open a can of worms.
This guy's full of shit. There's no point in trying to reason with him. But, like I said, it's fun getting him to go on the record with his rot.
