http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.
To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.
A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.
http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ
Quest Air Hang Gliding
Weak Link
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly
USAFlytec - 2001/07/14
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
To:
Davis Straub; Tow Group
Cc:
Rohan Holtkamp; Paris Williams
Subject:
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Davis,
Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more: Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this ;-).
A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.
On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.
Summary
Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions
Weak links are there to protect the equipment
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot
Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC
I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Hughenden Airport, Queensland
What material should be used for weaklinks?
From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:
Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).
Each pilot should have his/her own weak link of appropriate strength.
It is recommended that a new weak link is used for every launch; or a fabric sheath is used to cover the weak link to protect it as it is dragged along the ground.
Testing weak links tied from "No 8" builders string line has shown that the type of knot used does not greatly affect the breaking strain of the weak link.
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
CHGA Incident Report
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/28 18:18:20
2000/08/26 - Under sled conditions, I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall...
Dick Reynolds - 1992/11
Lookout Mountain Flight Park had acquired a new Moyes aerotug and I was the pilot - claiming 200 plus tows to date. At 11:00 AM on May 17, 1992 I had decided to take two more tows and then call it quits for the day.
The conditions on this particular morning were very light - great for towing. Takeoff went smoothly, with the glider then the tug lifting off, thus increasing my angle of climb. My airspeed was four mph above stall. I took my eyes off the indicator to watch the hang glider's progress when the engine abruptly seized. I can distinctly remember taking my hand off the throttle to wave the hang glider off, and it was at that point that I fully realized there was no time! I pulled the release and pushed the stick forward.
All this occurred somewhere around fifty feet. The combination of high nose angle plus the pull exerted by the climbing hang glider brought me to a screeching halt, so to speak. I believe my response time was less than a second, but this still me just hanging with very little elevator authority. The nose fell through the horizon to 30 degrees negative and the ground rapidly rushed toward me. I attempted to pull up at approximately 25 to 30 feet, with no response. My feet, butt, and gear impacted simultaneously.
I consider myself fortunate in that my friends were there to immobilize me. The doctors tell me that I'll be walking in a year or so, but that I shouldn't plan on winning any foot races.
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
Weak Links - Dynamic Flight Hang Gliding School
James Freeman - 2005
Weak Links
In all aviation the pilot is usually the weakest link...
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10 Gs positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=229
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
Paul Tjaden - 2005/03/05 13:26:19 UTC
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a Bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The Bailey is right there.
I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC
Zapata has delivered as promised, day after day with howling winds and good lift, where flights of over 100 miles (and much more) are possible.
Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around. Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links, though Tad's barrel releases do seem better able to release under stress. After Russell got a new rope and Paul recovered, he was late leaving and got trapped under some cirrus.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648
Oh no! more on weak links
Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC
On June of 2008 (2008/06/02) during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft. At that point I realized I had the rope, so I drop it in the parking lot.
-----
A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
- Dragonfly is one word, Davis.
- Nevertheless Davis displays a brief glimmer of reptilian level intelligence by responding to a problem with an actual common sense solution.
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
http://ozreport.com/9.011
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
- A solution which, of course, Davis being Davis, denies to everyone else.
For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading.
- But if Davis and James had gone up together on the same glider and used a double loop that would've been totally cool - 'cause that way the glider weak link doesn't override the tug weak link, right Bobby?
- Right Davis?
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.
- Grow a pair, Rhett. Go nuts and jack 'em up an extra fifteen.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
And ignore the fact that you're using the same weak link on 200 and 350 pound gliders - and calling it one G for everyone.
To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.
- Yeah, protect the 130 pound Greenspot at all cost - it's Sacred, ya know.
- Increased breakage over a rate of WHAT?
A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.
- Such BLATANT disregard for THEIR OWN SAFETY!!! Imagine - competition pilots wanting control over their own tows!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question
Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped. Fortunately, I fly with solid wheels on the glider, so me, the glider, and the dolly all rolled safely to a stop with no damage to anyone or anything. All other weak link breaks have been during boat towing, and were uneventful and unwarranted.
The problem with strong links is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
- If the glider goes into a lockout his strong link will simultaneously take the tug's weak link out of the loop and render releases on both ends inoperable and both pilots will find themselves helpless and doomed.
After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall...
The combination of high nose angle plus the pull exerted by the climbing hang glider brought me to a screeching halt, so to speak. The doctors tell me that I'll be walking in a year or so, but that I shouldn't plan on winning any foot races.
- Whereas a proper flight park approved weak link will automatically free the tug whenever it senses it's in danger.
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G...
- Yeah, right.
The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle.
- So people who had absolutely no freaking clue as to the effects of knotting, the maximum breaking strength of a loop of 130 pound Greenspot, how that strength translated to tow tension on either one or two point bridles, what the Dragonfly normally delivered by way of normal tow tension, the range of variation in turbulence and through maneuvers, or even the purpose of a weak link decided that the Sacred Loop of 130 pound Greenspot put all gliders - regardless of their flying weights - at exactly one G and that exactly one G is the perfect rating for an aerotow weak link.
- And since a doubled weak link must obviously be twice the strength of a single and any tandem glider is obviously twice the weight of any solo glider the double loop is just perfect for putting all tandems at precisely one G.
More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
- That's the purpose of the weak link - you freakin' morons. You put the weak link between the plane and the towline so that neither the plane nor the towline breaks. You don't design part of the plane to break at the same tension as the weak link you're using - especially when you "THINK" that a double loop of 130 Greenspot blows at 520 pounds.
- So now I need to keep my weak link below whatever the hell a double loop of 130 translates to on a tug whose driver never bothers to change it until it blows and leaves some poor clown with 250 feet of Spectra to try to avoid being that poor clown left with 250 feet of Spectra.
That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).
- No shit. You design the mast to blow at the same tension that the weak link does and do you think maybe you'll blow the mast instead of the weak link about half the time? After the mast fatigues a bit maybe all the time?
- So now, in order to keep the mast from blowing before the designated weak link that was ASSUMED to be appropriate for the task, you've gotta dumb down the weak link to what you ASSUME will be three quarters of that figure.
- But you're still using double loops on the tandems so you're upping the likelihood of leaving it with the Spectra draped over the basetube.
- And since I wanna fly at one and a half Gs - about 480 pounds - you're gonna screw me over real good too.
Your weak link comments are dead on.
- Those aren't Davis's comments. That's Davis quoting Rohan. A moron like Davis will never have the slightest clue what this issue is all about.
I really did not want to get drawn into a debate.
- Yeah Steve, if you let yourself get drawn into debate with someone who knows what he's talking about you'd get your freakin' head handed back to you on a platter after about fifteen seconds.
Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel.
- Yeah, you Florida 130 pound Greenspot junkies totally NAILED IT on your first and only effort.
Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.
- With no problems whatsoever. You can use the crap releases with which you guys flood the market and those weak links will always blow "before you can get into too much trouble", they'll never blow when you don't want them to, and they'll always hold in an emergency to prevent you from whipstalling.
Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
- It's not the best in terms of high competition points - as you mean it. It's the best in terms of intelligence. And there's not a lot of overlap in those two subsets.
The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780 pounds. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced.
- Yeah, that's the ASSUMPTION - but none of you guys have actually gone to the trouble to actually test it, right?
I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link...
- Right. You actually don't even have the foggiest clue what the towline tension would be.
...but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.
- Yeah. Totally moot. As long as everyone lives within the bounds of your proper one-size-fits-all Utopia, all discussion of pounds and Gs is stifled, and the tug driver gives a flying fuck about the stuff at his end.
The tug weak link broke off at a thousand feet, in less than a second the glider was at five hundred.
- It's a bridLE, by the way.
Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
- And where the hell is anybody gonna be able to get THAT?
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot
---
One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down.
After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall...
I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.
Robin's own release failed to release. Do not use a 'Wichard' or 'spinnaker' release directly connected to a string or rope. This type of metal release has a metal knob on the opening arm that a rope will catch on, even when the release is activated and open.
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
---
- Any more brilliant ideas? Or are you still content to read the discussions in quiet amusement while the wheel reinvention discussions are locked down by total assholes like Davis?
I'm confused.
- You've never had enough brains to be confused. You've always been dead certain of everything your fellow assholes at Ridgely taught you on Day One.
When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath.
- Pick one to max out:
-- four strander straight aft
-- two strander straight up
(PLEASE pick the latter.)
I NEVER play Russian roulette with anything heavier than .22 caliber. A .38 can kill you so much deader.
AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
The combination of high nose angle plus the pull exerted by the climbing hang glider brought me to a screeching halt, so to speak. I believe my response time was less than a second, but this still me just hanging with very little elevator authority. The doctors tell me that I'll be walking in a year or so, but that I shouldn't plan on winning any foot races.
- Obviously the problem there was that the glider was using a "strong link". Everyone knows that a proper single loop of 130 will blow before anyone can get into too much trouble.
- What's stopping you from squeezing a lever while the glider's trying to move the back end of a 250 foot line sideways enough for you to even notice at the front end?
- Aren't you using a weak link on your end light enough to protect the junk you're flying?
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow...
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube.
- Yeah Bobby, great job. Thanks. Do us all a big favor... Stick to designing tugs and stay out of releases and weak links.
Given that a certified glider will take 6-10 Gs positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure.
- Given that a certified glider will take 6-10 Gs positive an extra half G will have no bearing whatsoever on the issue of structural failure.
- How the hell did one G get to be the "STANDARD" weak link anyway?
Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn.
- Or totally ineffective - ask Lauren or Axel. Or physically impossible - ask Carlos.
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a Bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side)...
- I may have been the first person to put barrel releases at both shoulders. I got mocked at Ridgely for doing so.
The Bailey is right there.
Yeah, everything is always right there - until you get into a situation in which it matters.
I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
- Wanna listen to me, Paul? There's no such thing as "an easy reach" - ANYWHERE - when the shit hits the fan.
- Don't wanna listen to me?
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
Got that? Did you catch the date? Is this message EVER gonna sink in?
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- Yeah, that's when it's REAL nice to have a string between your teeth. It that had happened in the kill zone you might have still been dead but your chances would've been WAY better. But don't worry, Paul, it'll probably NEVER happen to you in the kill zone.
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly...
- So you're at the time and place where people specifically go to set world records, in some of the most potentially violent thermal air you've ever been in, and...
Never take your hands off the bar.
...you take one of your hands off the bar for something you really don't need to be dicking around with right now.
In all aviation the pilot is usually the weakest link...
...and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second.
- This is not an unprecedented situation.
One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down.
There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope.. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link.
- RELATIVELY heavy... NORMAL weak link. Relative to WHAT? Normal for WHOM? Lauren? Karen? Ayesha? You wanna tell us something about pounds? Or Gs? Of course not. 'Cause you don't have any more of a freakin' clue than the people who "trained" and are flying with and towing you.
Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast.
- Things DID get very ugly very fast. And if you had been at a hundred feet playing with a string instead of flying the glider with a Bailey release on your shoulder you'd have been dead no matter what was being used for a weak link on either end.
Today is a very sad day for WWHGC members. Our good friend and fellow pilot Roy Messing passed away this afternoon as a result of a hang gliding accident this past Monday. Roy had released after entering into a mild lock-out but did not regain control in time to set up for a proper landing.
And that was in dead morning air with a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a Falcon 3 with both hands on the basetube and a lever under one of them. He wasn't lucky enough to have enough air to recover from a wingover like you did.
...until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link.
- Had the "relatively heavy weak link at the tug" NOT broken the rate of increase was so freakin' unreal that you'd have never known or felt the difference. That's what James Freeman, Steve Kinsley, and I understand, you don't, and shitheads like Jim Rooney and a lot of the people you fly with never will.
http://www.aviationbanter.com/archive/index.php/t-40965.html
Are Weak Links really Necessary for Aero Tow?
Bill Daniels - 2006/09/18 14:30
I would like to add, however, that at least my reading of accident reports suggest that a fatal glider accident is more likely when the towline fails prematurely. For that reason, I like to stay near the stronger end of the FAR 80-200% range.
- I gave you something at or just under 1.5 Gs. Try asking Russell to translate his end into pounds or Gs. He's just doing what you are - the same as everybody else without a clue as to why.
I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.
- Yeah Paul. You're like everybody else. You don't want it breaking when it shouldn't - just when in "SHOULD". And by "SHOULD" you mean you want "a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation" so you can pretend you're safe flying with one hand on a VG cord and the other flailing around for a Bailey release. The problem is that that's a totally mythical animal fabricated by Donnell thirty years ago.
- Bullshit. The only thing you know about the strength of that weak link from that flight was that:
-- It didn't do this...
...but at 400 feet my pussy-##s weak link broke.
-- The "relatively heavy" weak link at the tug broke before yours.
-- Your glider didn't.
- That weak link was half a G under what USHGA and the FAA say it can be so if it is "way too strong" why aren't you doing anything to change the regulations?
Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around.
- "ABOUT" the worst? What were some of the other related amusing anecdotes? What weak links were involved?
- Was that the only time Russell had ever had his "relatively heavy" weak link blow?
- How long had it been since Russell had replaced or even checked his "relatively heavy" weak link?
- How much of a lateral vector was he feeling? A loop of 130 on a one point bridle can deliver up to 260 pounds. Was his tail being pulled sideways to the tune of 260 pounds?
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
- Yeah, you had too much PRESSURE on it.
- What was going on with Jim Prahl's Dragonfly over the course of that cluster fuck?
...when I finally got separated from the tug.
- When you FINALLY got separated. Not "when the weak link blew" but probably after Dustin got hold of the lever then on the far side of the right downtube. (Always nice to have lotsa air and four hands in a lockout emergency, isn't it?) So what weak links were you guys using that made this tow so much safer than Paul's?
Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links...
- Did you advise anyone not to use Quest and Bailey releases after your little roller coaster ride? Or is it OK to use and take passengers up on shit equipment because everyone else does and your cherished friends at Quest and Ridgely make and sell it?
- What about the weak links you were using? Aren't they supposed to blow before you get out of control?
- Paul flies in violent thermal air, Carlos flies in smooth air.
- Paul flies a Bridle Link (one point) - 432 pounds, about the same as the double loop of 130 pound Greenspot that many fed up pilots try to sneak by the Launch Line Nazis, the same as Campbell Bowen flew before he switched to one of my Bridle Links - which puts his glider at a bit under 1.5 Gs. Carlos flies a single loop on a two point bridle which blows at anywhere between 125 and 243 pounds of tow tension.
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow.
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.
- Paul tries to fly a glider on tow with one hand, Carlos tries to fly a glider on tow with one hand.
I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second.
I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you.
- Paul locks out in a heartbeat, Carlos locks out in a heartbeat.
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.
- Paul can't get to his release, Carlos can't get to his release.
There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke...
I heard a snap...
- Paul hears a very large noise and feels a jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke, Carlos hears a snap as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke.
Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around.
- Paul's driver reports his tail being pulled around about the worst he's ever had it as his "relatively heavy" standard Dragonfly weak link blows, we have no report from Carlos's driver as his "relatively heavy" standard Dragonfly weak link blows.
...giving me the rope.
...At that point I realized I had the rope...
- Paul gets the rope, Carlos gets the rope.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
...and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at a thousand feet, in less than a second the glider was at five hundred.
- Paul recovers quickly from the wingover, Carlos goes into a screaming dive and loses five hundred feet - half his altitude - before being able to pull out.
...and flew back to the field to drop the line...
At that point I realized I had the rope, so I drop it in the parking lot.
- Paul returns the towline, Carlos returns the towline.
...and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link.
Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
- Paul goes right back up into the washing machine with the same release crap that he just found completely useless when the shit hit the fan, Carlos goes right back up with the same release crap that he just proved can be completely inaccessible when the shit hits the fan.
- Carlos sings the praises of the assholes who set him up with the crap that would've killed him if the shit had hit the fan 510 feet lower.
- Paul changes back to a "NORMAL" one-size-fits-all weak link...
One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
...like Carlos was using so that next time, instead of recovering quickly from the wingover, he'll go into a screaming dive and lose five hundred feet before being able to pull out.
- Since Carlos was flying Flight Park Mafia gear with a Flight Park Mafia approved weak link his incident never even makes it into the collective memory.
- But Paul was using a "strong link". Not only a "strong link" but something that came out of Tad's black magic workshop. So watch what happens over time...
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/05 23:03:26 UTC
And let's not forget Paul Tjaden who would have been screwed by a stronger weak link.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/11/21 12:38:21 UTC
It was a pretty scary incident.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC
Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around.
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/11/20 22:50:53 UTC
Russell quoted afterward that he'd never had his tail pulled around so violently.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/21 16:56:55 UTC
...as did Paul when he almost stretched the sail of his $10,000 glider to the point where he'd have to consider competing with Falcon pilots.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Lauren - 2008/11/20 22:50:53 UTC
Luckily, Paul's glider was not stressed to the point of failure...
I recovered quickly from the wingover...
Patrick Halfhill - 2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC
Another pilot that was convinced at the ECC that he needed a stronger weaklink, took his to Texas and I believe through it away after a near death experience.
I recovered quickly from the wingover...