http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47939
The "how" of loosing Jeff
Christopher LeFay - 2016/05/22 18:21:11 UTC
The "how" of loosing Jeff
Yeah, he got loosed alright. His Standard Quest Link increased the safety of the towing operation and his unnamed tug driver fixed whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope just to make sure. And, strangely, the double dose did him no good whatsoever.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
Go figure.
We all confront loss in our own way.
Which never seems to include fixing the relevant problems and having responsible parties stood up in front of walls.
Past horrors leave us looking for what we can- or think we can -control.
How many hands do we typically need to control a hang glider and where is it best to have them?
We try to shape how we feel by assigning meaning. The common resolutions- "never again", "this loss will change us", "not for nothing" -are matched with the refrains of solace - "the real tragedy would have been not having the courage to really ever live", "he died doing what he loved". Nods of affirmation all around. Later there will be a memorial place or annual commemorative event.
When was the last time you heard Zack Marzec's name mentioned at some place other than Kite Strings? When was the last time you mentioned his name?
We'll hope to see the day when the pain of loss is eclipsed by the gratitude of memory.
Whatever you say, Christopher.
Seeking understanding is another natural recourse.
What are the purposes of the aerotow weak link and how do we determine the strength we need to best effect those purposes? Limit your response to fourteen pages.
If there is utility beyond a semblance of control, that depends on each of us- together.
To that end, here following are observations, concerns, and questions relating to the death of Jeff Bohl. Contribute constructively if you will- otherwise, find some other venue.
Get some people behind bars to get some other people really thinking about what they're doing and saying.
-Context-
I just left Quest Air Open, Part 1, last week; I was driving for my wife, who participated in the comp. Our last morning in Florida found friends gathered around a bunch of I-Hop tables pushed together, Jeff behind a wall of food. I kept thinking "there's no way he can eat the whole menu"- but, being an athlete, he made a noble attempt to do just that.
Being an athlete...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30824
Article "Pushing Out" Feb 2014 HG mag
NMERider - 2014/02/25 06:05:06 UTC
Ryan is a classic example of a superbly talented athlete who is ill-equipped to write a comprehensive training manual or academically meaningful text.
...isn't particularly important as far as the fundamentals of this sport are concerned.
The night before held my favorite moment from the week: at the final evening pilot meeting, Davis responded to complaints that only a select few pilots were being singled out for recognition by acknowledging that there were 43 pilots in the Open Class- at which point, Jeff leapt to his feet, starry eyed, waving a hand over head as he began to make his way to the stage, as though just having his named called out on The Price is Right. Such sincere, self deprecating humor. I treasure it.
Did anyone ask Jeff what the breaking strength of his weak link was and how much pull he'd need to use to blow his bent pin barrel release at just under that tension? Assuming, of course...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...it hadn't already welded itself shut.
Back in Houston, near the home flying site we both shared, there's a Jeff-shaped hole that will never be filled.
You had your chances to do something years before. You did NOTHING - and worse.
-Observations-
The standard weaklink used at Quest is...
...fifty-four percent...
...stronger than what...
...Quest and its malignant spawn screamed for decades was the ideal one-size-fits-all standard weak link and forced everyone and his fuckin' dog within its sphere of influence to use regardless of the degree of inconvenience carnage it was perpetrating.
...we use at our home site;
- And make sure you don't give us any actual numbers, materials, test strengths, reasons weak links are varied according to geography.
03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png
- Your home site is Houston and I can one hundred percent guarantee you that not everybody at your home site uses what we use at our home site.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305393601/
...at the first pilot meeting...
Pity you didn't have any actual pilots at the first pilot meeting - just the usual collection of pro toad, easy reaching, pin benders.
...pilots were instructed about acquiring the stronger links.
"OK, pilots. If you need to acquire a stronger weak link ask one of our cart monkeys for a stronger weak link. And be sure to make it clear that it's one of the STRONGER weak links that you want to acquire. If no one has any questions on this I'd like to remind you that if you release early in a low level lockout we'll move you back up to the head of the launch line. So there's absolutely no need to delay releasing in a low level lockout - that the stronger weak link you just acquired may not be able to prevent the way the old weaker weak link always would."
(I don't trust my recollection of either well enough to provide numbers- if you know, please share.)
No, Christopher. Ever since the afternoon of 2013/02/02 it's become critically important that no one mention any actual numbers when discussing the focal point of our safe towing system.
My wife is on the light side...
Good job not giving us any numbers on her either.
...and she was instructed...
"Instructed"? Not ordered?
...to stay with the weaker links we commonly use at our home site.
- So how come Quest has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about weak links up on its website? Are comp weak links different from recreational weak links. Why are they wasting everybody's time in comp pilots meetings teaching Aerotowing 101 when they could so easily have up on their publicly accessible website what weak links different pilots should be using and why?
It was so much simpler back in the pre 2012/02/02 days when we had Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney telling us to use 130 pound greenspun or fuck off.
- And here I was thinking that...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
...we all played by the same rules or we didn't play. Looks like fairness has just gone down the toilet with these lighter pilots using safer weak links. What's next? Smaller gliders for lighter pilots? Shorter harnesses for shorter pilots? Where will it all end?
- How 'bout li'l Niki here?
11-4120
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2934/14062779771_0d7fb040e6_o.png
You could probably take her up with you tandem on a big solo glider without much of a problem.
02-00820
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png
Doesn't look she was instructed to stay with the weaker links we commonly use at our home site.
- Lighter pilots fly smaller gliders. And, because all glider sizes for any given model use the same airframe materials, smaller gliders can take higher G loading than larger gliders. Right? Any disagreement there? Good. So if the purpose of the weak link is...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...to protect your aircraft against overloading then why are smaller gliders using LIGHTER - rather than HEAVIER - weak links. Still trying to use them as pitch and lockout protectors? How's that...
2016/02/02 - Tomas Banevicius
2016/04/03 - Nancy Doe (still)
2016/05/21 - Jeff Bohl
...been working out lately?
- Do tell us what you're using at your home site and how it was determined to be such a great one-size-fits-all aerotow weak link and the problems you had with the other flavors of fishing line with which you experimented.
I don't know what Jeff used.
- Tad-O-Link - OBVIOUSLY.
- Why not? It was his Standard Quest Link - the one that Davis is so fucking happy with - that increased the safety of the towing operation for him. Why don't we know what weak link he was using, glider he was flying, helmet he was wearing?
Being a relatively new airtow pilot, my wife was warned about several tug pilots.
What was the point? Pretty much all of them are...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...total douchebags. And how come we only know the name of the passenger who was killed and not the name of the Pilot In Command who killed him?
This one is heavy on the Dragonfly and tows fast.
Sounds like bullshit. Little higher stall speed, I doubt if it has any appreciable bearing on the tow.
That one isn't a hang glider pilot...
Who gives a flying fuck? Give me a scenario in which that would matter in the least.
...and is used to towing banners, not people.
So? Does that make him more likely to pull a dangerous hard low level turn 'cause he's used to towing something that can't lock out and die?
In time she was towed by most everybody. Compared to what we are accustomed to, tows were much more aggressive in climb and speed.
Getting through the kill zone quickly is a bad thing?
Some tug pilots on some days performed aggressive low level turns on tow out.
- How many gliders opted to abort? My call is ZERO. (Making the easy reach to the pro toad release would be a hundred times as dangerous as riding things out.)
- Compare...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
...Contrast.
The staging on the day of the crash was more or less the same as the last day of Part 1 of the Open: East to West. Attached is an Airtribune screen shot showing Jeff's track; with the green triangle on the right about where the tow was started from.
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/26578855104_69f4705474_o.jpg
As I recall, the wind speed was forecast for 5-15 mph; images from that day show flags standing out and whipping. On that aforementioned last day of the previous comp, many tugs flew West toward the slot, banking 45-90...
They're not BANKING 45-90. They're TURNING 45-90.
...to the North before reaching the tree line, around tree top height. Amongst the many unknowns to me are how many pilots were towed up before Jeff and the path they took on the day of the crash.
Regarding the track log, Airtribune reports Jeff only gaining 1 or 2 meters altitude; the tow begins partly uphill, so reality may amount to even less.
http://ozreport.com/20.102
The Quest Air Open Part 2
Davis Straub - 2016/05/22 02:26:08 UTC
Fausto Arcos who was in the front of the launch line just in front of me watched the whole thing and said it was a "classic" progressive lockout. The pilot needed to release much earlier before it became non-recoverable.
The pilot's weak link broke at apparently the same time as tug pilot gave him the rope. The tug pilot gave the hang glider pilot the rope because the hang glider pilot's glider was pulling the tow plane's tail to the east forcing the tug toward trees that the tug with this drag would not be able to get above. All of the hang glider's undersurface was visible in the tug pilot's mirror.
Does that sound like the tow only got to one or two meters or maybe even less?
I have no idea how accurate Airtribune's figures or tracks are. The point at which Jeff's track diverts South correlates to about where the towed glider would be when tugs towing from the same direction previously began banking North.
Again...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/texas-man-dies-hang-gliding-accident-central-florida-39359396
Texas Man Dies in Hang Gliding Accident in Central Florida - ABC News
Associated Press - 2016/05/25 09:20 UTC
Groveland
A Lake County sheriff's report says Bohl's hang glider was being towed by an airplane and reached about 30 feet in the air before crashing to the ground. Bohr was pronounced dead at the scene.
One to two meters or even less?
I have heard no report as to the disposition of the tug pulling Jeff at that point.
Go figure. (We don't know much more about him than we do about Kelly Harrison's 2015/03/27 driver.)
What has been reported-
http://ozreport.com/1463883968 -is that the tug pilot released the tow rope because the glider on lockout was turning the tug toward the tree line.
What was reported was that:
http://ozreport.com/20.102
The Quest Air Open Part 2
Davis Straub - 2016/05/22 02:26:08 UTC
The pilot's weak link broke at apparently the same time as tug pilot gave him the rope.
which is total bullshit because it's only physically possible for a weak link to blow BEFORE a release is actuated. The release actuation was totally irrelevant as to the progression, outcome of the tow but it does tell us a lot about what was going on with the tug driver.
Also note that we have an NTSB investigator...
http://www.wesh.com/news/person-dies-in-groveland-hanggliding-crash/39664746
Person dies in Groveland hang-gliding crash | Local News - WESH Home
Matt Lupoli - 2016/05/22 02:27 UTC
An NTSB investigator tells us a tow rope broke loose causing the airsports craft to crash into the ground just before two o'clock Saturday afternoon.
...who, in the only statement the public has from him, is LYING. And nobody in the hang gliding "community" seems to give the least degree of rat's ass. (Guess we only get bent outta shape when dead paragliders get reported as dead hang gliders.)
Which tree line? I don't know- but it seems the tug was still lower than the tree line; while this might suggest a less aggressive rate of climb than generally previously witnessed by me...
So you're saying that a more aggressive rate of climb would've put both planes above the treeline without the incentive for the hard turn which was pretty fuckin' obviously what precipitated the fatal lockout?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC
Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
Anybody hear about any Quest Open weak link breaks other than the one of Jeff's deeply and fatally deep into the lockout?
I haven't spoken to the tug pilot-
Which indicates Christopher knows who he is and that he's probably Houston area - hopefully Bart Weghorst.
...whether the climb rate was a response to Jeff's position, conditions, loading of the tug, or some other reason, only they can say.
And haven't.
-Comments-
From the OZ Report:
We have a risk management plan in effect for this competition as a requirement from the USHPA for their insurance as well as for their future insurance situation.
By my reckoning, our insurance predicament is only a symptom of the primary issue the risk management plan seeks to address- pilots crashing.
I would say not so much. The insurance people don't care whether or not we kill ourselves - just what we do to innocent bystanders and their property. But the rate at which we crash is a damn good indicator of our competence in keeping our gliders under control and thus innocent bystanders and their property safe.
While some involved in officiating the comp gave voice to sentiment suggesting such an effort was a pointless exercise, the consideration given to removing incentives for pilots to stay on tow strikes me as well considered...
Suck my dick, Christopher.
...and I witnessed the plan well and consistently implemented.
Oh. So you saw a good many pilots getting into low level lockouts releasing as early as possible...
07-300
...because they were confident that they wouldn't hafta go back to the end of the line for a relight. Get fucked.
Furthermore, the staging are was well staffed, and, to my eye, pilots were scrutinized appropriately before towing-
Everybody making sure everybody was properly equipped with the same cheap bent pin shit that Jeff died on.
...though, given an objective of rapid processing, there was often a sense of haste.
Oh. So that might have been a factor in Saturday's fatal lockout.
That said, I never saw or heard anyone rushed into launching.
Unless you count Western hang gliding culture in general.
Tolerances vary widely from pilot to pilot. Pilots, like parts, have a failure load or rate. The easy answer here is that Jeff locked out and should have released- but that isn't the whole picture.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
We can anticipate failure- pilot failure, equipment failure -is going to happen.
The "equipment" had failed before Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey had first brought it out into daylight after his ten minute design and construction phase. The pilot had failed when he made the decision to go up with it. End of fuckin' story.
Are we confronting that truth adequately?
I'm sorry, Christopher... I didn't quite catch that. Any chance you could pull your head outta your ass just a bit and repeat it?
What margin was provided for failure? A few years back, our culture was such that no one interceded to stop a bag of money from being put on a cone at goal.
So fuckin' what? How does the danger of that move stack up against:
- people running off ramps sans hook-in checks?
- Rooney Links being used as pitch and lockout protectors?
- flying final on the control tubes for better roll control authority?
- spot landing contests?
Such a flamboyant failure was easy to see in hindsight...
No fuckin' way anyone could've seen it in foresight.
...the skill of the very best no match for the margin provided.
Bullshit. He reached for the bag with his arm IN FRONT of the basetube. If he'd stayed behind it he could've repeated that drill all the goddam week.
What I know is that Jeff's hang gliding capacity was somewhere between my wife- who was warned from flying behind several tug pilots from multiple sources -and the rock stars looping into goal.
Bull fucking shit. Hang gliding "capacity", skill, experience had ZILCH to do with this one.
Manned Kiting - 1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
Gregg B. McNamee - 1996/12
Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.
If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.
British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04
On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
What is it about this scenario that you total dickheads are having so much trouble understanding?
Though she performed admirably, I was concerned at the time for her safety: conditions were something other than what would be expected for a pilot new to aerotowing. In retrospect, the shift in standards present in a competitive environment from regular day-to-day towing isn't tenable for me. Sure, many maintaining a higher capacity for challenge than me will transit a lifetime without fatal mishap. Some won't. Perversely, we seem to have come to view flying a bit like war- "not everybody makes it back- that's just the way it is". Maybe- or maybe, all the while vocally reminding ourselves that we fly for fun, we as a group have become inured to pressures and choices that marginalize our safety in this competitive environment. I struggle with the possibility that the goal of elevating all the participants rapidly aloft exceeded the skill of both glider and tug pilots, costing us a friend. I don't know- I wasn't there.
You're not ANYWHERE, Christopher. Never have been or will be.
There was a time when I was interested in doing a little AT in Florida.
