Looks like I missed getting killed by a Grizzly by about eight days and two miles. Also was in a Subaru Forester at the West Glacier intersection heading to Essex rather than on a mountain bike on a trail heading to Halfmoon Lake.
Earlier that day we'd been guided to a likely viewing area by a hiker who'd been bent over tying a boot or sumpin' when someone alerted her to a mom and cub a hundred feet to the aft.
My niece bagged a bear:
a few days later in the Swiftwater area in which we'd been looking but I'm thinking this is a brown Black Bear rather than a Brown (Grizzly) Bear.
Five die in French Alps in series of extreme sports accidents
A deadly weekend for extreme sports in the French Alps has claimed the lives of two climbers, a paraglider, a hang glider and a wingsuit jumper.
...
Earlier in the day, a hang gliding instructor died aged 49 after plunging out of his two-seater near Lake Annecy. His student, who was not harmed in the incident, managed to land and alert the emergency services. Rescuers were unable to resuscitate the victim.
The Bandolier study found that, for hang gliding, the chance of death was one in nearly 117,000 flights.
"We think in the context of the number of people doing it - we have 7,000 members in the UK - it's safe," said Bill Bell, the director of competitions at the British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association. "We don't see it as an extreme sport," he added, explaining that the amount of technical preparation and study required to get aloft put adrenaline junkies off.
The extreme sport English and Welsh mountain rescue services spend most effort dealing with is mountain biking, said Andrew Simpson, a spokesman for Mountain Rescue. Last year the service dealt with 30% more mountain bike accidents than the previous year, many of which happened during competitions and other organised events.
Most mountaineering and climbing accidents the service deals with these days are down to bad luck, he said.
"They tend to be very, very good at what they are doing, they have done everything by the book but they have fallen, and perhaps the protection they have put in was not enough," said Simpson. "Accidents do happen, but it's very rare these days to get called out for someone climbing a mountain in flip-flops."
A deadly weekend for extreme sports in the French Alps has claimed the lives of two climbers, a paraglider, a hang glider and a wingsuit jumper.
Yep, climbing, paragliding, hang gliding... EXTREME sports. Right up there with wingsuit jumping. (Anybody ever hear American football referred to as an "EXTREME" sport?)
Earlier in the day, a hang gliding instructor died aged 49 after plunging out of his two-seater near Lake Annecy.
Oh. They were flying SEATED. Must've neglected to buckle his seatbelt.
His student, who was not harmed in the incident, managed to land and alert the emergency services. Rescuers were unable to resuscitate the victim.
1. Wasn't much point in alerting emergency services then.
2. Any possibility of you troubling us with a name? Anybody?
The Bandolier study found that, for hang gliding, the chance of death was one in nearly 117,000 flights.
My, what a very precise ratio extracted from a reality in which we really have no fuckin' clue how many hang gliding flights are made.
"We think in the context of the number of people doing it - we have 7,000 members in the UK - it's safe," said Bill Bell, the director of competitions at the British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.
You just keep thinking that then, Bill. And make sure you never do shit to make anything any safer.
"We don't see it as an extreme sport," he added, explaining that the amount of technical preparation and study required to get aloft put adrenaline junkies off.
Right. Like no fuckin' way you're gonna get an adrenaline junkie going through the Naval Academy and getting carrier qualified so's he can fly F-18s.
Most mountaineering and climbing accidents the service deals with these days are down to bad luck, he said.
Another term for stupidity.
"They tend to be very, very good at what they are doing, they have done everything by the book but they have fallen, and perhaps the protection they have put in was not enough," said Simpson.
So inadequate protection is by the book. Maybe you need a better book.
"Accidents do happen, but it's very rare these days to get called out for someone climbing a mountain in flip-flops."
And once again the term "hook-in check" is excluded from the mainstream media 'cause no hang gliding entity on the planet has ever made the slightest effort to implement the procedure.
Gordon Marshall - 2016/08/17 08:54:28 UTC
York, Western Australia
My sincere condolences to the friends and family.
You mean the friends and family who haven't:
- identified him
- apologized to his "student"
- and won't do shit to support any solid efforts towards addressing this issue
I am sad and angry that this has happened. The press reported that he fell out of the two seat hang glider. I am going for a 'failure to hook in' as the reason the hangglider 'fell'.
I was too but the report was so crappy I thought I'd make sure it wasn't some ultralight incident with no bearing on anything related to hang gliding.
I know, its a terrible knee jerk statement but family and friends will be grieving over this poor mans death...
You guys got an apostrophe shortage down there now?
...and will eventually want not only answers but a way to stop this tragedy from reoccurring.
Bull fucking shit. This virtually NEVER happens on any scale whatsoever.
We will no doubt find out the real reason in due course.
He didn't do a preflight and/or an adequate hook-in check.
So why the statement?
Lemme guess... So's you can plug your moronic Aussie Method?
Its bloody impossible to 'fall' out of a hang glider but it is possible to walk around with your harness on and forget to clip it to the glider prior to take off. It has seen the demise of many pilots (and passengers) over the years.
Bull fucking shit. Best information we have at the moment:
A trainee hang glider pilot survived after the instructor beside him slipped from his harness and fell 150ft to his death in the French Alps.
The trainee was in a state of shock after landing the two-person delta winged craft at Doussard, on the south shore of Lake Annecy in Savoy. The instructor, 49, had been demonstrating how to prepare for landing on Saturday. Neither man has been named.
That STRONGLY indicates he was hooked in but didn't have his leg loops. And the Aussie Method does SHIT to address the leg loops issue.
We had a policy at our school and club that if we ever saw someone walking around with their harness on they would get a severe bollocking.
That would be so much more fun than implementing an HGFA regulation mandating the Aussie Method and suspending and revoking ratings based on violations - something you motherfuckers haven't done in the course of the past three decades and won't budge and inch to do at any time in the next three decades.
It was just accepted practice that you clipped the harness into the glider then got into the harness, besides its easier to put a harness on this way.
That has never happened before or even close. The Atos sits so low it is very tough to hook the harness in, then myself. (My normal routine)
Going to take a hard look at it.
And then you're FUCKED.
We also demanded a 'hang check' prior to take off.
1. Ten or fifteen minutes. The more prior the better.
2. Who the fuck is "WE"? If WE have such great goddam ideas how come WE don't get them established in our national association's SOPs?
This is where the pilot (and pax) lay down with their full weight on the hang point, the observer would say "clean" and only then the launch could commence.
How nice that you always have an observer available - since you're all too fuckin' stupid and incompetent to act as Pilots In Command of your own fuckin' planes by yourselves.
I did see a new (to the club) pilot walking around in his harness ready to aerotow using a dolly, someone remarked about his harness but he said he does it all the time and was OK, so we all said nothing until he got onto the aerotow dolly and fell to the dirt, we then heartily laughed at the idiot.
1. Hahahahaha! What's it matter in a dolly or platform environment?
2. This is almost certainly a leg loops issue. And that's a non-issue in a dolly or platform environment unless you're stupid enough to unzip, kick out, and go upright on approach.
(some) Other clubs and schools must think its an acceptable risk to walk around looking like a dick with your harness on...
And here I was thinking that people walked around with their harnesses on...
...knowing full well that statistically this will eventually result in a senseless and tragic death.
Where are your statistics to back up that statement, motherfucker?
Safety procedures are generally written in dead mens blood.
1. By assholes who couldn't make it through a grade school grammar course.
2. So how many more plummeting-from-glider fatalities are we gonna need to have worldwide before one of you Aussie Methodist dickheads is gonna be able to quote me some HGFA safety procedures which effectively deal with this issue?
Well, very simply we could make a new rule for competition. If you are seen in your harness but not hooked into your glider you are automatically disqualified.
But we very simply have never done it...
06-0818
...have we Davis?
11-1118
Even after a guy gets concussed no severely that he has to drop out of the sport...
14-1728
How come? Also... How come neither you nor any of your Dedicated Sycophants has backed this Aussie Methodist dickhead up on his position?
I've recently pulled a lot of extra stills to better document this classic Aussie Method failure and now's as good a time as any to showcase them. The vast majority of them are pretty boring but skimming through them is a lot less tedious than watching the relevant section of the second video - even though most of it's run at high speed. And they serve well to illustrate another point that really needs to be made.
Both videos play at 30 fps (for whatever that's worth) and count tags prefaced by A and B reference the first and second videos respectively.
The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)
Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.
...that it's attached to the wing under which you're standing, has been thoroughly preflighted, and that you're safely buckled in and ready to fly.
And you're CERTAINLY not one to ever chose a path of least resistance. (Like an asshole such as Yours Truly who is CONSTANTLY searching for and taking paths of...
Fuck yeah. Certainly wouldn't wanna ever risk taking off if something might be wrong with your aircraft. I'd hate to hafta count the number of pilots who've died because they didn't check for damage to their wingtips caused by dragging them over rocks while approaching launch.
And while we're on the subject... Don't EVER do a preflight sidewire stomp test at launch. You could - and almost certainly WOULD - damage your wires by grinding them into sharp rocks.
How could something like this POSSIBLY happen to someone who NEVER enters his harness unless it's connected to his glider. Go figure. (Betchya think ya look pretty cool walking around in your harness like that, dontchya?)
1. I thought you were supposed to connect the harness to the glider and preflight the completely assembled aircraft before buckling yourself into the cockpit at this point. But even after this major and critical pooch screw you're just gonna connect the cockpit into which you're already buckled in to the glider and assume everything's good to go?
2. Yeah Mike. NOW you're hooked in - 'cause you just hooked in, right? From this point on until you actually run off the pad you are GOOD TO GO.
Prior to this one, 21 frames and god knows how long since you actually hooked in way the fuck back in the approach area with to further check of any kind. Were it not for a tip drag and the presence of a rock in the vicinity of the tip drag which caused you needless concern you'd be about to run off the pad with your carabiner dangling. Your infallible system for preventing unhooked launches just failed - exactly as it has done for many other Aussie Methodist dickheads before you for exactly the same reason - and you're still just gonna run off the pad with no hint of a check whatsoever.
We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
We also demanded a 'hang check' prior to take off,
Thanks to TAD...
...T** at K*** S****** - he who must not be named...
...I always do a lift and tug, hook-in check as close as possible prior to my launch run. Works a treat for avoiding a disconnected and/or no leg loops launch.
I've known too many pilots who did hang checks then launched without their leg loops and slid out to be left hanging by their armpits.
Or fell...
...to their deaths or subsequently UNhooked and ran off launch unhooked clearly and correctly remembering hooking in and doing hang checks but not remembering subsequently unhooking.
Hang-gliding instructor falls to death as student watches on in spate of extreme sports accidents in French Alps
A hang-gliding instructor mysteriously fell out of his two-seater aircraft and plunged to his death, leaving his shocked student to land alone, in one of five deaths of extreme sports enthusiasts this weekend in the French Alps.
A wingsuit jumper, two rock climbers, and a paraglider were the other victims in the grim series of deaths that came as holidaymakers flocked to the mountain range to enjoy a sunny bank holiday weekend at the height of the tourist season.
The fatal accidents began on Saturday around midday, when the hang-gliding instructor became the first of the five French nationals to lose his life in a sudden and dramatic plunge to the ground.
The 49-year-old veteran of the sport was giving a lesson to a student in a two-seater hang-glider near Lake Annecy, a popular haunt for lovers of the high-adrenaline activity.
The pair were approaching a landing strip at a locality called Doussard when the instructor, for reasons that have not yet been established, fell out of the aircraft and plunged 150 feet to the ground.
The student, who emerged unscathed from the incident, managed to land the hang-glider alone and called emergency services. But medics were unable to help the instructor, who had died from injuries sustained in the fall.
Police have begun an investigation into the incident, but there has been no suggestion of foul play.
A hang-gliding instructor...
Thank God for tandem hang gliding instruction. Hard to imagine where this sport would be without it.
...mysteriously...
The only mystery here is why he didn't detect the problem by sliding down until his armpits caught or falling out of his harness at launch. I'd previously written:
...nobody's ever fallen out of a harness because of leg loops upon rotating up for a foot landing and that issue isn't a particularly big fuckin' deal.
This is a first - as far as I know anyway. I can't see how it's possible to foot launch minus secure leg loops and survive and not be aware of a problem until rotating up during approach.
...fell out of his two-seater aircraft and plunged to his death, leaving his...
...harness, parachute, and...
...shocked student to land alone...
Was he able to nail a perfectly timed flare on the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ?
...in one of five deaths of extreme sports enthusiasts this weekend in the French Alps.
Death to anyone who fails to join the fight against having hang gliding labeled/classified as a fucking extreme sport.
The fatal accidents began on Saturday around midday, when the hang-gliding instructor became the first of the five French nationals to lose his life in a sudden and dramatic plunge to the ground.
During which, it needs to be pointed out, he had totally ceased participating in the extreme sport of hang gliding.
The 49-year-old veteran of the sport...
Gianpietro...
...Zin.
...was giving a lesson to a student in a two-seater hang-glider near Lake Annecy...
Hope he covered all the really important points.
...a popular haunt for lovers of the high-adrenaline activity.
Yeah, landing a hang glider at under thirty miles per hour on a humongous strip is a high-adrenaline activity. Landing a Cessna is just landing a Cessna. (I'll tell ya precisely when the adrenaline started kicking in for both participants on this one.)
The pair were...
Was.
...approaching a landing strip at a locality called Doussard when the instructor, for reasons that have not yet been established...
He didn't have his leg loops - asshole. Which didn't matter in the least until he went upright in order to be able to...
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...land safely.
...fell out of the aircraft and plunged 150 feet...
Could've been worse. Could've gone upright earlier and plunged 200 feet.
...to the ground.
To the ground? Really? Bad luck.
The student, who emerged unscathed from the incident...
...and eager to continue his lessons in this high-adrenaline extreme sport...
...managed to land the hang-glider alone...
So just how important was it for him to have started the flight with a tandem instructor?
...and called emergency services. But medics were unable to help the instructor, who had died from injuries sustained in the fall.
1. No shit.
2. u$hPa requires first aid and CPR training and certification for its instructors, Maybe it should require it for the students as well.
Police have begun an investigation into the incident, but there has been no suggestion of foul play.
Depends a lot on what you consider foul play. In hang gliding NOBODY is EVER pressured the SLIGHTEST bit to lift his glider or use any other procedure to verify his connection and its security within several seconds of foot launch to guard against a false assumption that these most critical issues are what they're ALWAYS *ASSUMED* to be on EVERY flight. But it's pretty much mandatory that everyone and his dog for every flight of his career go upright, preferably at 150 feet, to prepare to execute a perfectly timed foot landing flare. 'Cause the biggest - and pretty much only - threat to the hang glider pilot's safety is not being fully prepared to do a dead stop from safe flying speed in the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place that at some inevitable point in his career will be his only landing option.
Alright... Clear overhead, hang check complete....
02-0202
...launch your command.
Yep, the hang check's complete (really hard not to complete a hang check for a dolly launched launched flight)...
03-0501
We don't have our leg loops - which should be pretty fuckin' obvious with a cocoon harness - but the hang check's complete so he's definitely good to go...
04-0600
P.S. And let's also note how easily reachable the Quallaby release lever is. REALLY good to go.
Roll commences:
05-1305
Note continous hold-down line:
06-2023
07-0518
16-1903
07-2029
08-2118
09-2129
10-2227
11-2619
Florida Ridge...
12-2926
Good of them to have posted comments about this incident and helped raise awareness regarding the issue.
13-3011
14-3020
Oops...
15-3113
16-3120
17-3127
There. Got it.
18-3202
Now we can rotate to upright for a nice safe foot landing.
19-3221
Oops...
20-3507
Upright hang check not working out so well. Houston, we have a problem.
21-3724
First effort to kick back into the boot we were safely in six seconds ago...
22-3804
Your grip looks a bit tight. Try to relax it a bit so's you can feel what the glider's telling you.
23-4118
24-4211
25-4307
Not much success with the second kick-in effort either.
...FAILURE. But why bother doing things right, running checks on anything before committing.
My normal procedure is to hook in my harness to the glider and then get into my harness.
Which obviously goes above and beyond USHGA's SOP mandating a hook-in check just prior to launch and thus frees the pilot to ignore it.
A new step was added to the procedure because my new radio PTT is hard wired and needs to be dealt with.
In other words... The idiot fucking Aussie Method doesn't actually work in the REAL world whenever REAL issues start rearing their ugly heads.
I remember looking at my hang strap and back up.
Did you check your backup sidewires?
I remember screwing my carbineer closed.
1. Good job. That ensures that your carabinEEr won't open in flight and drop you to your death - like the nonlockers everybody used in the old days used to all the time.
2. You don't "screw your carabinEER closed". It's gotta be closed BEFORE you screw it "closed". And once it's closed it's physically impossible for it to be unclosed in flight. And even if it were possible for it to become open it would be a cold day in hell before anyone figured out how to get dumped.
3. Do you REMEMBER looking at your hang strap and idiot backup and screwing your idiot locking barrel locked for THAT flight? Or do you REMEMBER seeing and doing those things from the flight last weekend? This is a great smoking gun illustration of just how lethal human memory is in dealing with this issue and why anyone who relies on a memory from more than two seconds ago is a total moron.
I walked up to launch. Andy Beem was my nose man. He asked me if I was going to do a hang check.
So...
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/11/19 06:03:56 UTC
Joe Greblo and Andy Beem.
Fuck you, Bob.
I said No. I'm already hooked in.
Yeah. Why would any competent focused pilot ever assume otherwise?
He said I wasn't.
So I just lifted my glider up to the stops to quickly and clearly demonstrate and verify that I most assuredly was.
I repeated I am hooked in.
Fuck yeah! 'Cause your memories of hooking in and not subsequently unhooking will certainly trump what a crewman is seeing and telling you. I'd have told him to clear the nose and go fuck himself...
2-005
...so's I could get on with the serious business of executing a safe launch run.
He looked me straight in the face and said your not hooked in.
Did he say "your" or "you're"? Grebloville so I'm guessing the former.
He looked so sincere that I turned around to grab it and prove I was.
1. Without putting the glider back down first. Neat trick.
2. Why didn't you just tell him that your normal procedure was to hook your harness into the glider before climbing into it and thus there was absolutely no possibility of...
The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)
Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.
...Aussie Methodist would've done. (Notice he spell's "you're" the same way you do? (There IS a pattern here. One should be required to pass a literacy test before getting checked off at the training hill.))
I wasn't.
1. Good thing he looked so sincere, huh?
2. Dickhead.
Yeah, that would be an INTOLERABLE burden in terms of effort and risk on launch. Best to maintain your reserves for perfecting your upright approach, spot landing, and flare timing in the Kagel Happy Acres putting green.
Standing on launch is where one is most vulnerable.
Yep. Just ask Bill Priday, Kunio Yoshimura, Yossi Tsarfaty. Doing a hook-in check on launch is a potentially lethal distraction. Best wait until you're at least five or six steps into your launch run...
No fuckin' way. Never met an Aussie Methodist with that capability.
...a pilot should be...
...always thinking about the worst possible scenarios at any and every given moment and implementing procedures to protect against them.
...paying attention to conditions not turning around backwards.
So do COMPETENT hang glider pilots - the ones who know what a hook-in check is and how to execute one without turning around backwards and ceasing to pay attention to conditions. A walking and chewing gum sorta thing.
That is unless you have a nose man...
...whose job is to stand backwards and help maintain control of the glider until cleared...
...paying attention for you.
Dickhead. What's it matter what's going on with conditions if you've got somebody standing at and hanging onto your nose? The only time conditions matter is when you're on launch unassisted and prepping to commit, committing, having just committed.
(Notice there aren't any comparable discussions regarding complex and dangerous dolly and platform tow launched flights?)
Anyway, in the future I am going to adopt Greg Kendall's method. Create a dead man's line back from launch which I do not cross unless I double check.
Make it really far back from launch to be extra safe. Then whenever you're within a fifty yard radius of launch you can be relaxed, confident, good to go 'cause there will be no possibility of you being unhooked on launch after you've breached that dead man's line back from launch which you do not cross unless you've double checked. Just like there was no possibility of you being unhooked on launch before because your NORMAL procedure was to hook in your harness to the glider and then get into your harness. Ain't it just great the way all these NORMAL procedures are 100.00 percent bulletproof - whenever everything's NORMAL.
And let's keep on ignoring the fact that people ONLY get killed when things *AREN'T* NORMAL - conditions, routines, misassemblies, oversights, physical and/or emotional stresses, states of mind.
So let's make a big push for everybody to adopt Greg Kendall's dead man's line back from launch which you do not cross unless you've double checked. We can pre-define the largest safety zone possible for the given launch and mark the boundary with little red "DOUBLE CHECK!" flags. That way we'll be able to safely assume that anyone wearing a harness inside the boundary is safely connected to a glider.
Andy Beem - 2016/09/22 18:03:25 UTC
Ojai ,CA
Really like the way you punctuated the location tag that appears on one hundred percent of your posts there, Andy. Really admire people always doing their utmost to get things right and always striving for perfection.
Failure to hook in is my biggest fear in hang gliding!I'm glad it was caught before a launch attempt but it put fear in me how close it was.
1. See above. (Oh well, at least you spelled "failure" right.)
2. Yeah. Mine too. That's how come I NEVER assume I'm hooked in. Even two seconds after my last hook-in check as I'm running off the ramp I'm assuming I'm not and maintaining the corresponding fear. Only when I'm fully suspended and proned out when it's far too late to do anything about anything do I dial down from Red Alert mode.
3. I'm glad "IT WAS CAUGHT"? YOU caught it. And had to have an extended argument with this total Darwin case in order to get him to consider the possibility. I'da said, "OK, you win. Run hard and have a good one!", and cleared down and to the side.
4. That's it, oh Hallowed Mission Soaring Center Instructor and Advocate of the Hook-In Check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH? The Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney method of assuming you're hooked in and hoping one of your many friends notices something amiss?
Jeff Bjorck (DrJeff) - 2016/09/23 00:38:39 UTC
Thankful!!
Me too.
So thankful to hear of this good-news-story-ending!
A good-news-story-ending would've been for this Aussie Methodist total douchebag to have been killed. In this sport that's the ONLY way progress is ever made.
We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
Really gets to the many flyers who really don't understand the importance of needing to hook in. Period.
Malury - 2016/09/23 01:02:55 UTC
Hilo
That's why I think of our club as a "Brotherhood".
We should bury this thread and not give Tad the satisfaction that we are actually wasting our time acknowledging his existence. Yes, this needed to be brought into the light but now we should bury this asshole with some nice cold dirt (metaphorically) and never speak of him again.
...shitty little CULT.
Andy, thanks for looking out for our brother Jay. Ya dun good!
Yeah Andy. And now he's gonna adopt Greg Kendall's method and create a dead man's line back from launch which he does not cross unless he's double checked. And this will work so well for him that soon tens of thousands of hang glider pilots will adopt Greg Kendall's method and create dead man's lines back from launch which they do not cross unless they've double checked. And finally the sport will have kicked this unhooked launch problem ONCE AND FOR ALL. End of story.
Mario Miralles - 2016/09/23 16:00:12 UTC
Thank you Andy!!
Fuck you, Andy!!
My biggest fear too! The brain can play some mean tricks sometimes.
Mine sure does. It keeps telling me I'm not hooked in when every ounce of common sense tells otherwise. Always makes me scared shitless every time I commit. And all for NOTHING! Talk about your mean tricks.
We have lost too many good people this way.
We haven't lost any. Just assholes who ABSOLUTELY *REFUSE* to EVER make the slightest effort towards establishing a hook-in check routine. Just the total fucking assholes who never have this fear when they really need to. Gotta be doing SOMETHING for the gene pool.
We need more people like Andy!!!!
You GOT more people like Andy!!!! Coming out your ass!!!! A nose man noticing that the guy's not connected to his glider. Who'da thunk? Let's get this guy an NAA Safety Award, maybe a Nobel Peace Prize.
Donald Banas - 2016/09/23 22:11:10 UTC
"Joe Greblo Hook-In Check"
Yeah. The "Joe Greblo Hook-In Check". Everybody knows what that is. Like the Joe Greblo Four or Five Cs. Tons of videos showing people using these Joe Greblo methods to prevent unhooked launches. And Joe Greblo products hardly ever launch unhooked - or kill themselves on dry lakebeds along with their eleven year old students. (A bit odd that the Windsports instructor who caught Semi-Literate Jay ready to launch said absolutely nothing about any Joe Greblo procedures and mentioned only the Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt / Voight Twins Hang Check In The Setup Area method, dontchya think?)
My routine is to do some ground handling on launch, put the glider down, and do a "Joe Greblo Hook-In Check".
I like that! I'm now gonna start doing some ground handling on launch, putting the glider down, and doing "Joe Greblo Hook-In Checks". Couldn't possibly fail under any normal circumstances.
Sorry for the people behind me...
FUCK the people behind us! They remind me of the ones who fly Tad-O-Links and resent endless hordes of Rooney Linkers being escorted back to the front of the launch line for free relights.
...but that is how I was taught!
FUCK YEAH! Nothing anybody was ever TAUGHT should ever be questioned. And FUCK those people who complete their PREFLIGHT *BEFORE* getting on ramp and doing hook-in checks as the initial stage of their launch run. How I DESPISE *COMPETENCE* and people behaving like PILOTS in hang gliding.
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Don.
And let's not forget your dickheaded instructor who taught you that it's just fine to show total contempt for your fellow pilot and gum up the launch line during the soaring window. Care to name the motherfucker so's we can more effectively express our appreciation?
NMERider - 2016/09/24 00:47:08 UTC
As close as practical before I run off a launch ramp I lift the glider until I feel the tug of my leg loops. The philosophy of "You're always unhooked" or "The gun is always loaded" works a treat. I don't give rat's ass who invented or promoted this approach but it sure works for me.
I do. Because people who are extremely right about ONE issue tend to be extremely right about others and deserve respect and merit being listened to.
Phill Bloom - 2016/09/25 16:46:57 UTC
I no longer use the lift and feel the leg loops. Because I launched unhooked...
Towers.
...the rear wires lifted my harness not the hang strap.
Yeah, if you're too fuckin' stupid and incompetent to safely execute assembly and preflight procedures you should DEFINITELY eliminate the final check at the beginning of your launch sequence. The rear wires lifting your harness not the hang strap made you launch so much more unhooked than you would have using your updated procedure of leaving the glider on your shoulders, insisting to your nose man that you are, in fact, hooked in, and starting your launch run.
Sorry, people of varying ages... I totally exhausted my reserves of astonishment at unfathomable hang gliding stupidity about a year ago.
NMERider - 2016/09/26 02:02:34 UTC
I have never heard this before. Could you please elaborate on the whole event? Thanks
1. Yeah, let's make sure we get a good record of unfathomable hang gliding stupidity for future generations to enjoy.
2. Spoiler Alert. The motherfucker doesn't bother elaborating on the whole event and explaining how he almost died because he launched so much more unhooked as a consequence of lifting his wing than he would have if he'd just started running with the glider on his shoulders. Fuck him.
Joe Greblo - 2016/09/29 17:07:54 UTC
I watched another pilot launch unhooked using your (Jonathan's) technique.
For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.
- You watched an unhooked pilot execute a lift and tug and run off unhooked.
-- HOW?
-- Where's the link to the report?
-- You watched the false positive lift and tug but didn't bother to look to see if he was hooked in. Bullshit.
As many agree, all systems can fail when you fail to use them.
1. You mean if I don't immediately stuff the bar in response to a Rooney Link increase in the safety of the towing operation I could hit the ground harder? Wow, that sure was profound. And many agree to this. You took a poll.
2. What the fuck does that have to do with your previous statement?
I believe the absolute largest cause of failures to hook in can be attributed to the pilot's belief that it won't happen to him because he has a good system.
1. Like the Joe Greblo Four or Five Cs and the Joe Greblo Hook-In Check?
2. So then... What do you believe would be the absolute best strategy for PREVENTING failures to hook in? Perhaps the polar opposite of ALWAYS believing that it WILL happen three seconds from now? Can you cite an incident and/or present a scenario in which that strategy would fail?
Greg Kendall's technique is centered around several "hook in" checks while on launch, and timed as closely to the launch run as possible.
Bullshit. This totally contradicts what our most recent fuckup just said about it. Also contradicts:
Larry Chamblee - 2006/08/16 22:07:01 UTC
West Hollywood
Hook-In Check
Greg Kendall also advocates hooking in and performing your hang check right where you set up your glider, before carrying it to the launch line.
And in that thread you say NOTHING about verifications in close proximity to launch in either space or time. Smoking gun, dude.
Windsports supports this concept by promoting adherence to 3 principles.....
1. Notice he didn't say anything about actually TEACHING anything.
2. And Windsports has had such stellar success preventing unhooked launches in the Greater Grebloville sphere of influence.
1. Due to the many possible distractions on launch, I'm a prime candidate for a hook-in failure.
Right. Just on launch. NEVER in the setup, staging areas, just behind the ramp.
2. A hook-in check expires every 15 seconds.
Fuck yeah! If you remember doing one fifteen seconds ago it would be totally moronic to do anything just prior to:
Same as the fundamental firearms safety rule. Your Glock is only unloaded for the fifteen second period commencing when you finish the last check. I remember it by its acronym: YGIOUFTFSPCWYFTLC.
3. A hook-in check should be the last thing you do before the decision to run.
OK, people of varying ages... How many of you make the decision to start running in fifteen seconds? "OK... Good cycle coming in. Clear! (One one thousand, two one thousand...)"
If not, do it again.
1. Right. If a hook-in check ISN'T the last thing you do before the decision to run then you should DEFINITELY do it - AGAIN. That makes perfect sense.
2. The hook-in check you just said you saw "another pilot" do using (Jonathan's) technique before launching unhooked?
3. DESCRIBE your hook-in check - dickhead. Show us a video of you or one of your dickheaded instructors actually teaching it and/or one of your dickheaded products actually doing it.
the technique that I utilize is the moment before I commit to my launch run, is to reach back n grab the hang strap n ensure that the carabineer is in fact connected n locked. this might happen several times before the launch run is begun. in other words, verify you are hooked-in before you start the launch run by actually touching the carabineer n the hang strap, in my world there is no other way.
In your idiot world keyboards don't have shift keys, nobody's capable of composing a paragraph that would pass muster in a second grade English class, and gliders float in place while one reaches back n grabs the hang strap n ensures that the carabinEER is in fact connected n LOCKED - thus relieving the pilot of the necessities of setting the glider down and lifting it back up onto his shoulders and retrimming it every "hook-in check" cycle.
a hang check has its importance...
Yeah. Leading cause of unhooked launches. Can't get much more important than that.
...but most important is the confirmation of a glider to harness connection prior to flying requires a hook-in check has to be the final step before committing aviation.
Yet another great sentence.
i verify this by actually touching the hardware.
Good for you.
- Tell us about all the problems you've detected over the years by actually touching the hardware. Give us a single instance from the entire history of hang gliding of somebody finding out something useful by actually touching the hardware.
- I guess you also verify your engine temperature periodically by stopping the car, popping the hood, unscrewing the cap on your coolant reservoir tank, and dipping your finger in for a second. Just glancing at the gauge now and then wouldn't do the trick because it might be defective.
- And any thoughts on actually touching the leading edge, putting a foot on the middle of the sidewire, and touching up with 75 pounds of force before moving to the ramp? Just kidding.
thank you Andy for being there.
Goddam morons.
Greg Kendall - 2016/09/30 15:10:48 UTC
It's been mentioned that my hook-in verification technique is to establish a line that cannot be crossed without checking everything. It's also been mentioned that it's doing repeated checks on launch. Actually, it's both of those things, plus hooking in at the setup location. The idea is massive redundancy.
Fuck yeah! To build up massive confidence that you're safely hooked in at the instant you commit to launch.
If I was perfect...
...I would recognize that the subjunctive mood is called for and say, "If I WERE perfect..." But then I'd probably BE perfect and wouldn't need to preface my sentence as such.
...I might use just one check.
And I'd probably just need to launch once in my lifetime because a perfect hang glider pilot would never sink out.
I'm not perfect. I need a system that can tolerate some brain farts.
How 'bout a system predicated on the assumption that you're never safely connected to your glider? Just kidding.
There are good arguments for doing a hook-in check immediately before launch.
1. Would the 35 year old USHGA regulation mandating a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH be one of them? Just kidding.
2. What would be a halfway sane, reality based argument for NOT doing a hook-in check immediately before launch?
There are also good arguments for doing that off of launch where there are fewer distractions.
1. You CANNOT - BY DEFINITION - do a HOOK-IN CHECK *OFF* of launch.
I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:
HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.
HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.
They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.
Anything you do before several seconds prior to commitment is a PREFLIGHT procedure. A HOOK-IN CHECK is the first action of your LAUNCH SEQUENCE.
2. The PURPOSE of the hook-in check - you moron - is to neutralize any and all distraction issues. The distraction issues are not there for the purpose of relieving the pilot of the duty of executing the hook-in check.
I say do both.
So have the USHGA SOPs that nobody ever adheres to for the past 35 years. Or do you also have some other creative interpretation?
I believe I perform the Lift and Tug in a manner that will not produce a false tug upon my groin area.
Let's say it did. Then what would be the purpose of not executing a Lift and Tug?
Rotors can and do produce false headwinds at launch. Is that a reason to not launch into headwinds? Or is it a reason to verify the big picture before moving onto the ramp?
But we should all be wary of false verification using any technique.
Yeah. That's why our SOPs for students on up until death do us part specify PREFLIGHT INSPECTIONS *AND* HOOK-IN CHECKS.
Even hang checks have resulted in pilot separation and so has using the Aussie method of first attaching the harness.
1. The hang check and Aussie Method are the two major causes of unhooked launches. Got plenty of videos and accounts to offer as supporting evidence.
2. How 'bout the Windsports "hook-in check"?
Luen Miller - 1994/11
After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about ten miles per hour or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted sixty feet to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."
Any potential downsides there?
Muscle memory and habit can just as easily end a pilot as secure a pilot.
1. Nobody ever got scratched as a consequence of lifting a wing into the turbulent jet stream just prior to launch or stuffing a bar in response to things suddenly getting real quiet.
2. The purpose of the hook-in check is NOT to compensate for shit assembly and preflight procedures. It's ONLY to verify that your carabiner isn't dangling behind your knees...
...are doing what they're supposed to. The issue is FAILURE TO HOOK IN - à la this latest / Jay Devorak pooch screw (and if you don't have your leg loops YOUR HARNESS is hooked in but YOU aren't) - and other issues that may result in the prospective pilot plummeting from his wing have no legitimate place in an unhooked launch discussion.
Pseudo-inspections are key to disaster and they happen because of human nature.
Pseudo-inspections... Start another topic. This one's "hook in faliure (almost)". And it wasn't ALMOST - just like THIS:
18-3003
isn't an ALMOST lockout. This WAS a HOOK-IN FAILURE - which, with Jay's insistence that he WAS hooked in in the face of a crewman looking at the empty strap and continually assuring him that he wasn't, probably established a world record in the persistence category. Darwin Award honorable mention.
Know your nature and know your own pitfalls.
Me? I'm a total fucking idiot who has no business ever being anywhere near anything capable of getting more than a foot or two off the ground so I need to do hook-in checks just prior to every launch. But all these Grebloville Focused Pilots should keep doing what's always worked best for them as individuals.
My normal procedure is to hook in my harness to the glider and then get into my harness. A new step was added to the procedure because my new radio PTT is hard wired and needs to be dealt with.
Have you considered adhering to the requirements of your proficiency rating, jdevorak?
Fuck no. He has a whole bunch of other bulletproof procedures to ensure that he's safely connected to his glider before he gets anywhere NEAR the ramp. ( Cantchya READ?) And that could translate - depending factors like launch line length, potatoing, conditions, distractions - to five, ten, fifteen, thirty MINUTES prior to launch. Safety margins don't get much wider than that.
Why would any SANE person wanna give himself a false sense of security a couple seconds or less before commencing a launch run?
