Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?
Of course it is. It would be fuckin' INSANE to incorporate a system in which a hang glider pilot could make and execute decisions. And/Or to use a competent tow driver to regulate tension based upon what the glider's doing.Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 06:42:08 UTCI assume this is about the possibility of incorporating a pitch limiter into training?NMERider - 2016/08/22 03:36:13 UTC
Have you considered whether the larger issue may have more to do with executing the release before you find yourself in an unrecoverable trajectory with the ground? If a lockout seems incipient (and you know it's only going to get worse when you release one hand) isn't there a limited window of time in which you must commit to cutting the line? I'd be interested in your thoughts and training in this regard.
Of course you would. That's why I banned you from Kite Strings right after reading the abusive moronic crap you posted on The Davis Show.I don't really know, I would defer to instructors and Peter on that...
I fear you underestimate yourself.I have never seen it used, I don't have well formed opinions on it.
Too bad. That's where the Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release works best.I don't fear locking out high (much).
The ground, for one example. The age old enemy of really safe aviation.Low, there's more than just lockouts to worry about....
- I always enjoy it most when they're...I think more than a couple people have gotten killed by cart problems...
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
...KNOWN cart problems.
- And in Rob Richardson's case, his tug driver fixing whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope while he was dealing with a cart problem. (Fortunately his body cushioned the blow for his passenger to be able to survive with just a concussion.)
Turbulence doesn't kill people. It bounces them around....turbulence...
You forgot standard aerotow weak links, pitch limiters, tow drivers making good decisions in the interest of your safety....etc.
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- Aren't we lucky to have your thoughts on hardware that's been universal in Eastern Europe since the beginning of time.It's those first few seconds that I worry about, I think a mouth release can make inroads on such problems.
- I don't worry about the first few seconds 'cause I have my shit together. I start worrying after about five or ten seconds when I'm entering air of unknown quality. And I stop worrying after I've cleared the better part of a couple hundred feet.
Just stick with whatever your BHPA guys tell ya. They're the best.Nigel Hewitt - 2016/08/22 13:53:44 UTC
Brighton, Sussex
OK I'm a newbie to towing...
Get your instructor to go up solo and demonstrate a low level lockout emergency response. And put a GoPro on a tripod so's we can get a good video we all can enjoy....but it's that moment that I come off the cart when I feel I don't have a third hand free to dump the line if it all goes wrong and I'm tipped over further than I am confident I can recover from with the wire pulling the wrong way. Doing the 'lockout drill' in level high flight showed me the line certainly wanted to fly the glider but reaching for the release with some height wouldn't be a tenth the problem.
- Sure. What's a bit o' extra cable binding matter?I wondered if just moving my 'bike brake lever' to the basebar rather than having it on the down tube...
- Let's discount the cable binding issue and move the lever to the basetube. Wouldn't the fact that your instructors HAVEN'T done that indicate that they're total morons?
Which we just saw so beautifully illustrated......to eliminate the head turn to locate it...
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...in the Dave Pendzick video.
Bummer. Maybe releases should be designed, engineered, and built into gliders by people with functional brains rather than slapped together and velcroed on by total morons....would help but the place I'd want to put it is used by the cart so that's not on either.
Ya...I've played at snapping a hand to the tube release on the chest loop but if the line is pulling in a funny direction that could become a fumble.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
...think?Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Fine. Just grow a third hand then.I just don't fancy holding something in my mouth.
Like learning to roll control a hang glider?That's trying to implement a motor skill with no background.
Well then just keep configuring the way you have been. Can't think of anything serious to worry about there.I'd worry about it not working under pressure even if it was my 'normal' way to release.
Brian Scharp - 2016/08/22 15:00:37 UTCHow so?Doing the 'lockout drill' in level high flight showed me the line certainly wanted to fly the glider...
You mean the one for which you don't hafta reach but won't handle any kind of load?Bill Jennings - 2016/08/22 15:09:00 UTC
I'm also a newbie aerotow H2, and I've been using the lookout loop release:
http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-loop-release/dp/590
Why worry about it? A premature release...It mounts to the basetube, and I take off with the release loop around my ring and little fingers on my right hand. Just be sure to leave sufficient slack in the loop such that you don't prematurely release.
...has been declared to be a possible lifesaver at best and a mere inconvenience at worst.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Like here:A quick pull to the left sliding your hand along the base tube actuates the release.
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with the Street release designed to work under load?
Something to consider.
Most other animals are a lot smarter and have a lot more common sense than hang glider pilots.Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 15:58:25 UTChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqMyNael7YcNigel Hewitt - 2016/08/22 13:53:44 UTC
I just don't fancy holding something in my mouth. That's trying to implement a motor skill with no background.
You have to hold it shut, it seems like it would be pretty natural. If you were holding onto something with your teeth, and you wanted to let it go, you don't think your innate reaction would be to open your mouth to do so? Most other animals do almost everything with their mouth.
Really? My natural reaction in a hang glider low level lockout emergency is to let go of the basetube with my right hand, turn my head to find the bicycle brake lever velcroed to the downtube, and try to depress the lever backwards without spinning it. I'm pretty sure you'd find that to be the case with most of your higher primates.It just seems to me like a reaction that should be quite built into all of us.
Advantages like being bulletproof, disadvantages like being designed and engineered by T** at K*** S******.Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 16:19:03 UTCEvery release has it's advantages and disadvantages...Bill Jennings - 2016/08/22 15:09:00 UTC
A quick pull to the left sliding your hand along the base tube actuates the release.
Right. Lockout Mountain Flight Park doesn't offer a lever version of its junk....the brake handle gives you more leverage than the LMFP release...
And......while the LMFP release allows you to mostly keep your hand on the bar.
- We just ignore the u$hPa aerotowing SOP which mandates that aerotow releases be operable at twice weak link.
- The Street release doesn't work under full load with a pull inboard on the basetube.
Over 200 PSI in some cases - dickhead.The main thing you want to be aware of with the LMFP release is that in some cases, a lockout for example, tow pressures will be much higher than usual...
MUCH higher. One so does wonder how sailplanes with thousand pound weak links can manage to blow tow with......and the force required to actuate the release will therefore be much higher.
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...a modest pull with a couple fingers on a little knob.
How do we know what that is?On the ground, rig it up to some weights a healthy margin above your weak link's effective breaking force...
Or......and feel the difference, then use that force on every release in normal operation so that should you get in such a situation, you will get off on the first pull rather than the 2nd or 3rd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNq1WKy0EqE
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...fourth.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
I wonder how much longer I'll be able to be bathed in this level of stupidity before going totally insane.I feel like this is good advice for most any release, but especially ones that don't do anything to reduce the effect, chest barrel releases are another example.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540Jim Gaar - 2016/08/22 17:18:37 UTC
LMFP has a lanyard release that allows you to KEEP your hand on the control bar...
LMFP release dysfunction
Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC
In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...
This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.
We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.
- And some are safely terminated by the tug after a few worsening cycles with the glider at the extremity of the worst roll. Holly Korzilius comes to mind.NMERider - 2016/08/22 17:52:36 UTC
A lockout from 0' to any altitude that you fail to release and pull out from can and will kill you. There are plenty of videos online of pilots oscillating while under surface or aero tow. Some of these oscillations lead to lockouts and some the pilots remain on tow and recover.
- Those are PILOT INDUCED Oscillations and shouldn't be discussed along with lockouts in which the pilot control authority is overwhelmed by misaligned towline tension and/or a blast of air from an unfavorable direction. They don't or shouldn't happen on surface tow in which the driver can easily ease off on tension and on aero the driver can usually cut back the power and/or dump the glider as it's coming back. Basically not a problem for halfway competent tow pilots.
Won't the weak link break if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon)...Some of the lockouts result in crashes whether released or not and some result in recoveries.
http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
...before you can get into too much trouble.The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/07/27
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Anybody notice the conspicuous virtual total absence of discussion of the focal point of a safe towing system in the two Nancy Tachibana lockout spawned discussions? My, my, my... How the hang glider towing landscape has changed since the afternoon of 2013/02/02.
- I so do prefer the recoverable flavor of lockout.So I will re-state the question I asked:
1) Are you ready willing and able to manually release from tow when you believe that you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?
- No fuckin' way. I have been in two violent thermal induced two point aerotow lockouts at altitude - and both were with a fuckin' Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector that put me off the bottom of the legal weak link strength range. I know goddam well that I'll be fairly fortunate to be able to react quickly enough to manually release before the lockout's history and that afterwards I've got some significant stall recovery to deal with.
Furthermore I recognize that if I come off a cart into violent enough crap I can kiss my ass goodbye - same as if I do something similar off the ramp at McConnellsburg.
THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFUkMBhXEg
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is a FREE FLIGHT LOCKOUT. Monster thermal slams his left wing and Mother Nature gets to decide where the glider's gonna be going for a while and the pilot is along for the ride. And he's on a Falcon 3 already off tow. And it's a lot worse with a higher performance glider with a couple hundred pounds of towline tension vectoring the wrong way. It's just stupid to talk about being in a reasonable facsimile of control in those situations.
You don't. You realize you've been locked out when it's just about over.2) Assuming yes to (1) how do you decide whether or not you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?
On my last one I'm at 2300 feet in perfect position one moment and my next perception is: "Why is the horizon tilted seventy degrees and where'd the tug go?"Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
It's safe in sled conditions. In ANY potential soaring conditions...3) How do you decide when it's safe or unsafe to launch under tow because the conditions appear to be likely or unlikely to cause a lockout?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
That is gonna vertically lock him out, whipstall, tumble, and kill him. He makes the decision to continue the tow into the thermal that he saw harmlessly lift the Dragonfly and once he's in it with his piece o' shit pro toad bridle and Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector HE IS DEAD. There isn't a goddam thing he can do and there's not a goddam thing anybody else flying an illegal pro toad bridle (that nobody's addressing in these discussions and was also a deal breaker for Jeff Bohl) and Rooney Link would be able to do - with the possible exception of tossing a chute the instant the nose pitches up.Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07
A few days ago I promised that I would write a more complete accident report regarding the tragic hang gliding accident we recently had at Quest Air resulting in the death of our good friend, Zach Marzec. I do want to warn you in advance that there will be no great revelations from what you already know. Many times Zach flew with a video camera which could have possibly told us more but on this occasion he did not.
The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.
Zach Marzec was an advanced rated pilot who was a tandem instructor for Kitty Hawk Kites where he logged a huge number of aerotow flights. He was current (flying every day) and was flying his personal glider that he was very familiar with and had towed many times.
After checking the windsock and ribbons take off with the best possible tow equipment - meaning no Industry Standard shit anywhere near your glider - and a heavy Tad-O-Link. Expect to get clobbered before clearing the two hundred feet of the kill zone, pray you don't.Hint: Your life depends on your answer to the above questions.