Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 06:42:08 UTC

NMERider - 2016/08/22 03:36:13 UTC

Have you considered whether the larger issue may have more to do with executing the release before you find yourself in an unrecoverable trajectory with the ground? If a lockout seems incipient (and you know it's only going to get worse when you release one hand) isn't there a limited window of time in which you must commit to cutting the line? I'd be interested in your thoughts and training in this regard.

I assume this is about the possibility of incorporating a pitch limiter into training?

Of course it is. It would be fuckin' INSANE to incorporate a system in which a hang glider pilot could make and execute decisions. And/Or to use a competent tow driver to regulate tension based upon what the glider's doing.

I don't really know, I would defer to instructors and Peter on that...

Of course you would. That's why I banned you from Kite Strings right after reading the abusive moronic crap you posted on The Davis Show.

I have never seen it used, I don't have well formed opinions on it.

I fear you underestimate yourself.

I don't fear locking out high (much).

Too bad. That's where the Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release works best.

Low, there's more than just lockouts to worry about....

The ground, for one example. The age old enemy of really safe aviation.

I think more than a couple people have gotten killed by cart problems...

- I always enjoy it most when they're...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...KNOWN cart problems.

- And in Rob Richardson's case, his tug driver fixing whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope while he was dealing with a cart problem. (Fortunately his body cushioned the blow for his passenger to be able to survive with just a concussion.)

...turbulence...

Turbulence doesn't kill people. It bounces them around.

...etc.

You forgot standard aerotow weak links, pitch limiters, tow drivers making good decisions in the interest of your safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmUQF8p_DRo

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It's those first few seconds that I worry about, I think a mouth release can make inroads on such problems.

- Aren't we lucky to have your thoughts on hardware that's been universal in Eastern Europe since the beginning of time.

- I don't worry about the first few seconds 'cause I have my shit together. I start worrying after about five or ten seconds when I'm entering air of unknown quality. And I stop worrying after I've cleared the better part of a couple hundred feet.

Nigel Hewitt - 2016/08/22 13:53:44 UTC
Brighton, Sussex

OK I'm a newbie to towing...

Just stick with whatever your BHPA guys tell ya. They're the best.

...but it's that moment that I come off the cart when I feel I don't have a third hand free to dump the line if it all goes wrong and I'm tipped over further than I am confident I can recover from with the wire pulling the wrong way. Doing the 'lockout drill' in level high flight showed me the line certainly wanted to fly the glider but reaching for the release with some height wouldn't be a tenth the problem.

Get your instructor to go up solo and demonstrate a low level lockout emergency response. And put a GoPro on a tripod so's we can get a good video we all can enjoy.

I wondered if just moving my 'bike brake lever' to the basebar rather than having it on the down tube...

- Sure. What's a bit o' extra cable binding matter?

- Let's discount the cable binding issue and move the lever to the basetube. Wouldn't the fact that your instructors HAVEN'T done that indicate that they're total morons?

...to eliminate the head turn to locate it...

Which we just saw so beautifully illustrated...

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...in the Dave Pendzick video.

...would help but the place I'd want to put it is used by the cart so that's not on either.

Bummer. Maybe releases should be designed, engineered, and built into gliders by people with functional brains rather than slapped together and velcroed on by total morons.

I've played at snapping a hand to the tube release on the chest loop but if the line is pulling in a funny direction that could become a fumble.

Ya...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...think?

I just don't fancy holding something in my mouth.

Fine. Just grow a third hand then.

That's trying to implement a motor skill with no background.

Like learning to roll control a hang glider?

I'd worry about it not working under pressure even if it was my 'normal' way to release.

Well then just keep configuring the way you have been. Can't think of anything serious to worry about there.

Brian Scharp - 2016/08/22 15:00:37 UTC

Doing the 'lockout drill' in level high flight showed me the line certainly wanted to fly the glider...

How so?

Bill Jennings - 2016/08/22 15:09:00 UTC

I'm also a newbie aerotow H2, and I've been using the lookout loop release:

http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-loop-release/dp/590

You mean the one for which you don't hafta reach but won't handle any kind of load?

It mounts to the basetube, and I take off with the release loop around my ring and little fingers on my right hand. Just be sure to leave sufficient slack in the loop such that you don't prematurely release.

Why worry about it? A premature release...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...has been declared to be a possible lifesaver at best and a mere inconvenience at worst.

A quick pull to the left sliding your hand along the base tube actuates the release.

Like here:

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with the Street release designed to work under load?

Something to consider.

Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 15:58:25 UTC

Nigel Hewitt - 2016/08/22 13:53:44 UTC

I just don't fancy holding something in my mouth. That's trying to implement a motor skill with no background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqMyNael7Yc


You have to hold it shut, it seems like it would be pretty natural. If you were holding onto something with your teeth, and you wanted to let it go, you don't think your innate reaction would be to open your mouth to do so? Most other animals do almost everything with their mouth.

Most other animals are a lot smarter and have a lot more common sense than hang glider pilots.

It just seems to me like a reaction that should be quite built into all of us.

Really? My natural reaction in a hang glider low level lockout emergency is to let go of the basetube with my right hand, turn my head to find the bicycle brake lever velcroed to the downtube, and try to depress the lever backwards without spinning it. I'm pretty sure you'd find that to be the case with most of your higher primates.

Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 16:19:03 UTC

Bill Jennings - 2016/08/22 15:09:00 UTC

A quick pull to the left sliding your hand along the base tube actuates the release.

Every release has it's advantages and disadvantages...

Advantages like being bulletproof, disadvantages like being designed and engineered by T** at K*** S******.

...the brake handle gives you more leverage than the LMFP release...

Right. Lockout Mountain Flight Park doesn't offer a lever version of its junk.

...while the LMFP release allows you to mostly keep your hand on the bar.

And...
- We just ignore the u$hPa aerotowing SOP which mandates that aerotow releases be operable at twice weak link.
- The Street release doesn't work under full load with a pull inboard on the basetube.

The main thing you want to be aware of with the LMFP release is that in some cases, a lockout for example, tow pressures will be much higher than usual...

Over 200 PSI in some cases - dickhead.

...and the force required to actuate the release will therefore be much higher.

MUCH higher. One so does wonder how sailplanes with thousand pound weak links can manage to blow tow with...

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...a modest pull with a couple fingers on a little knob.

On the ground, rig it up to some weights a healthy margin above your weak link's effective breaking force...

How do we know what that is?

...and feel the difference, then use that force on every release in normal operation so that should you get in such a situation, you will get off on the first pull rather than the 2nd or 3rd.

Or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNq1WKy0EqE

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...fourth.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

I feel like this is good advice for most any release, but especially ones that don't do anything to reduce the effect, chest barrel releases are another example.

I wonder how much longer I'll be able to be bathed in this level of stupidity before going totally insane.

Jim Gaar - 2016/08/22 17:18:37 UTC

LMFP has a lanyard release that allows you to KEEP your hand on the control bar...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC

In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...

This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.

We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.

NMERider - 2016/08/22 17:52:36 UTC

A lockout from 0' to any altitude that you fail to release and pull out from can and will kill you. There are plenty of videos online of pilots oscillating while under surface or aero tow. Some of these oscillations lead to lockouts and some the pilots remain on tow and recover.

- And some are safely terminated by the tug after a few worsening cycles with the glider at the extremity of the worst roll. Holly Korzilius comes to mind.

- Those are PILOT INDUCED Oscillations and shouldn't be discussed along with lockouts in which the pilot control authority is overwhelmed by misaligned towline tension and/or a blast of air from an unfavorable direction. They don't or shouldn't happen on surface tow in which the driver can easily ease off on tension and on aero the driver can usually cut back the power and/or dump the glider as it's coming back. Basically not a problem for halfway competent tow pilots.

Some of the lockouts result in crashes whether released or not and some result in recoveries.

Won't the weak link break if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon)...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/07/27

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

...before you can get into too much trouble.

Anybody notice the conspicuous virtual total absence of discussion of the focal point of a safe towing system in the two Nancy Tachibana lockout spawned discussions? My, my, my... How the hang glider towing landscape has changed since the afternoon of 2013/02/02.

So I will re-state the question I asked:

1) Are you ready willing and able to manually release from tow when you believe that you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?

- I so do prefer the recoverable flavor of lockout.

- No fuckin' way. I have been in two violent thermal induced two point aerotow lockouts at altitude - and both were with a fuckin' Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector that put me off the bottom of the legal weak link strength range. I know goddam well that I'll be fairly fortunate to be able to react quickly enough to manually release before the lockout's history and that afterwards I've got some significant stall recovery to deal with.

Furthermore I recognize that if I come off a cart into violent enough crap I can kiss my ass goodbye - same as if I do something similar off the ramp at McConnellsburg.

THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFUkMBhXEg

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is a FREE FLIGHT LOCKOUT. Monster thermal slams his left wing and Mother Nature gets to decide where the glider's gonna be going for a while and the pilot is along for the ride. And he's on a Falcon 3 already off tow. And it's a lot worse with a higher performance glider with a couple hundred pounds of towline tension vectoring the wrong way. It's just stupid to talk about being in a reasonable facsimile of control in those situations.

2) Assuming yes to (1) how do you decide whether or not you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?

You don't. You realize you've been locked out when it's just about over.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

On my last one I'm at 2300 feet in perfect position one moment and my next perception is: "Why is the horizon tilted seventy degrees and where'd the tug go?"

3) How do you decide when it's safe or unsafe to launch under tow because the conditions appear to be likely or unlikely to cause a lockout?

It's safe in sled conditions. In ANY potential soaring conditions...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

A few days ago I promised that I would write a more complete accident report regarding the tragic hang gliding accident we recently had at Quest Air resulting in the death of our good friend, Zach Marzec. I do want to warn you in advance that there will be no great revelations from what you already know. Many times Zach flew with a video camera which could have possibly told us more but on this occasion he did not.

The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.

Zach Marzec was an advanced rated pilot who was a tandem instructor for Kitty Hawk Kites where he logged a huge number of aerotow flights. He was current (flying every day) and was flying his personal glider that he was very familiar with and had towed many times.

That is gonna vertically lock him out, whipstall, tumble, and kill him. He makes the decision to continue the tow into the thermal that he saw harmlessly lift the Dragonfly and once he's in it with his piece o' shit pro toad bridle and Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector HE IS DEAD. There isn't a goddam thing he can do and there's not a goddam thing anybody else flying an illegal pro toad bridle (that nobody's addressing in these discussions and was also a deal breaker for Jeff Bohl) and Rooney Link would be able to do - with the possible exception of tossing a chute the instant the nose pitches up.

Hint: Your life depends on your answer to the above questions.

After checking the windsock and ribbons take off with the best possible tow equipment - meaning no Industry Standard shit anywhere near your glider - and a heavy Tad-O-Link. Expect to get clobbered before clearing the two hundred feet of the kill zone, pray you don't.

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9632.html#p9632

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

I advise not answering any of these questions!

I don't think Jack Show dildos need any encouragement to not answer any questions. But your advice is greatly appreciated nevertheless.

The first one is a trick question, and no matter what you answer you're already wrong trying to answer the following two...

NMERider - 2016/08/22 17:52:36 UTC

Are you ready willing and able to manually release from tow when you believe that you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?

The reason this is a trick question, is the same reason it should be irrelevant that the Lookout release has less mechanical advantage, and may be difficult to use during the high tension...

Pressure.

...of a lock-out.

- Like in THIS:

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...high tension lockout...

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There...

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Got it.

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If you can't blow it open after four jerks you get a five dollar gift certificate good towards the purchase of a Lockout Mountain Flight Park hook knife with a red safety lanyard.

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- But if you need a little extra mechanical advantage to blow tow in a lockout, Lockout Mountain Flight Park offers a model with a bicycle brake lever you can securely velcro to your downtube...

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...within extremely easy reach.

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- If high tension is a characteristic of a lockout then why just use a properly sized weak link...

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...as an emergency release...

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...and use the shit mechanical advantage jobs from Lockout for normal separations at altitude?

- How much tension is required to sustain a lockout?

Let's say you set your constant tension payout winch...

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...for 150 pounds of constant tension. So how much more is the 150 pounds of constant tension you experience during a lockout...

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...than the 150 pounds of constant tension you were experiencing during the normal climb...

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...you were doing 4.2 seconds before? (Nice job keeping that glider so nicely lined up straight behind the truck, Avolare. No easy task in a strong left ninety cross like that.)

Jump to top:
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Interrupting regularly scheduled programming to bring you stills from the thing of beauty Aleksey (thanks bigtime) posted a little under eight hours ago at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9631.html#p9631
Couldn't resist.

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Note bridle contact with basetube during launch and a wee bit after. Negligible issue.

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Note position of pilot (Aleksey) relative to basetube (available pull-in range) and tow angle as climb progresses.

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Pulling in, reducing tension and pitch attitude in preparation for release.

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Paraglider. (Something one tends not to see at aerotow operations.)

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Teeth still appear to be in reasonably good shape. (Go figure.)

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Check out the starboard tail wire.

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Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9632.html#p9632

Paraglider. (Something one tends not to see at aerotow operations.)

What aerotow operations?

Sorry. Showing my age.

No worries, I figured it was some operation I hadn't heard of. It reminded me of this though it's a bit off topic.
https://youtu.be/mR3VPsipsoU?t=2m28s

It was pretty scary... dangerous... I had a weak link break at about forty feet in the air with the glider COMPLETELY behind me. Giant surge which I swooped out of and just barely cleared the ground by a few inches.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 23:09:12 UTC

Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!
Remember kids, always blame the equipment.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

There are other releases (no so common anymore, thankfully) that could become full-on inoperable when the tension increased...

- Oh. They're no so common anymore, thankfully?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata

Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607
Understanding Tow Releases

Peter Birren - 2011/08/29 18:40:45 UTC

In my 1000+ tows, I've had to use my hook knife three times... the first was on a pulley tow when an old 2-string release didn't work. Sure did need that hook knife... and RIGHT NOW! Though it worked fine and I lost the bridle and release, it gave me the inspiration to come up with the Linknife.

Peter Birren - 2011/09/18 22:27:52 UTC

Because at the top of tow, my headset screwed up and I couldn't tell the driver to stop, so she kept driving and started pulling me down, increasing tension to the point that the pin wouldn't pull.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Scott Howard - 2014/11/06 16:06:31 UTC

...the best i can do for now is a clip of the day b4 when i told the instructor about release problem. (still released by normal method but had to yank 3 times on release to get it to release.)

http://ozreport.com/20.183
Barrel release forces

Davis Straub - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC

Curved or straight

Richard Thorp

I have been laid low with sinusitis for the past week - so thought I would do a release force test on my barrel release - something that I have been wanting to do for a while:



I use the top black one in the picture - I forget the source of it but it is a thin wall aluminum barrel 3/4in inside diameter with a stainless steel curved pin. The tension is limited by a single loop of the fishing line I have used as a weaklink since Hempstead. I do not have a good way of measuring forces - I used a lever and baggage scale. To the best I can determine the weaklink was failing around the 200lbf mark, so all the tests done were probably between 150lbf and 200lbf

Anyway. At this "high" load of 150 - 200lbf, the top black release takes a VERY VERY strong pull to open it. It always opened, but the release force is MUCH higher than I am comfortable with. You have to be sure to grip it properly when releasing. I can really see how a first attempt could potentially fail. It could be helped with a larger diameter ring around it so that if you slide your hand down the line there is a better shoulder to pull against.

I have another barrel release - the lower one with the red line. This I made myself with thick wall Al tube 3/8in inside diameter and a straight parachute pin. This is very similar in geometry to the 'Getof' release I have seen around - and is a design I like. The combination of the straight pin that has a better mechanical advantage and the smaller tube means the release force is much smoother and very easy - 2 fingers can easily operate it.

So - what is the conclusion?. Well this is a personal question of risk tolerance, but for me I feel the 3/4in design is very marginal. I am now not wanting to use it as my primary and have to fight with one hand off the bar to effect a release. I also can see very little sense in using it as a secondary release - secondary releases will be used under high stress situations and often with an unpracticed hand with the release in an awkward position. For approx $10 and 10 minutes work I can make up a much better alternative.

Just food for thought.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/06 18:14:30 UTC

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


Caption reads:

This Pin was deformed under something under a direct loading of 220 pounds (achievable for a 315 pound glider using a 1.4 G Weak Link).

All the more reason to use a WEAKER weaklink. If you're bending pins rather than breaking the weaklink, I have to think your weaklink is too strong (and now the pin has become the weakest link in the system

Got news for ya, boychick...

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


People are very happy with Tad-O-Links nowadays.

- Name some, motherfucker. Name some releases that have been taken out of circulation because of deficient mechanical advantage and tell me how/why they got put into / were allowed in circulation in the first place. And while you're at it:
- a) quote yourself warning people about this deadly shit hardware, and
- b) tell us why you and your shit organization were aware this deadly shit hardware was in circulation and said NOTHING

- The trend, with very few exceptions, has been to go to LOWER mechanical advantage releases.

-- Go from three to two-string because:
--- it clears easier under zilch tension after the glider tops out
--- Mission is incapable of teaching its students how to connect a three-string without turning it into a locking mechanism
--- it's TYPICAL

-- Rotate the spinnaker shackle from:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305428629/

to:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1568/25934364401_3d6d2c6b9f_o.png

in order to keep the magic fishing line clear of the pivot point

So... are you willing and able to manually release when you believe you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?

- Why would anyone want to? The more severe the lockout situation...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

...the better your Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release will work.

- Are these:

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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
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MANUAL releases?

Hint- if you are *entering* an unrecoverable lockout...

Show me a video of a RECOVERABLE lockout - asshole. If it's RECOVERABLE it's NOT a LOCKOUT. It's a...

53-074803
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...glider not pointed straight at the tug - occasionally 'cause the glider doesn't know the tug's gonna turn until after it's turned. Big fuckin' deal.

...you should have already A) steered yourself back where you belong, and if you were unable to do A then do B) release before before BEFORE entering an unrecoverable lockout situation.

- Look shithead... With the two hands of the PILOT on the basetube there are no such things as RECOVERABLE lockout "situations" and ENTERING lockouts. A glider "entering" a lockout is like an unattended bowling ball "starting" to roll off the Radial Ramp at Henson. A lockout is a turn away from tow precipitated by forces on the glider that overwhelm the PILOT's control authority. It is NOT - for the purpose of the discussion - some bozo who's been sent up by some incompetent asshole instructor like you...

09-05705
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...with no fuckin' clue as to how to turn left and right in order to follow the fuckin' tug.

- And of course you can MANUALLY release with no penalty whatsoever. When you're using all available muscle resisting the roll with BOTH hands there's no penalty whatsoever making the easy reach to...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

...whatever release you have with one of them.

Failing to fly the glider where you want it to fly...

http://ozreport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

John Seward
2010/06/26

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it's difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

...is a serious situation...

Also without a doubt the cause of Scott Trueblood's 2015/05/17 free flight lockout into the mountain.

...a lockout is an even more serious situation, but it is a symptom that follows that first problem.

Right, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight. There's no fuckin' way a glider on any kind of tow can lock out with a pilot who knows what he's doing. So let's make towing 100.00 percent safe by making sure not to tow anyone who doesn't know what he's doing - regardless of what it says on his card.

Failing to recognize the first problem, and remedy or escape *BEFORE* the following lockout ensues...

There, people of varying ages. If everyone would just listen to Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight all of our towing problems would be solved. Just like all of our foot landing problems were solved after Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney wrote his seminal thread on The Davis Show.

THAT is what people seem not to get here.

I JUST realized something about...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".

...Fraudspeak.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

Use of the word "people". Do some searches on some Rooney ranting threads. Every third word is "people". And almost always as an expression of contempt.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

And when it's not...

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

...it almost always concerns "people" who don't actually exist.

T** at K*** S****** is about the only individual Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney USED TO specifically mention by name 'cause he was the biggest threat to the commercial hang gliding Ponzi scheme and its operatives and he considered me a safe target. Pretty much zero risk of political backlash. No longer. Not safe to mention T** at K*** S****** 'cause he was right about everything and now has plenty skeletons to prove it.

Rooney and Ryan conspicuously don't narrow the "people" category down to "pilots" because that doesn't convey the desired contempt and they don't reference individuals because doing so would be the beginning of the inevitable path to alienating everyone and losing their grips on power.

The former managed to do that anyway and it's a real good bet that he'd made himself persona non grata at Ridgely and was the "personnel" issue that toppled Highland Aerosports into oblivion after the end of the 2015 season.

...have done more to make the sport of hang gliding unsafe than they'll ever admit to.

So then how did they get signed of on their Twos, Threes, AT ratings? If people seem not to get that is it their fault for being sucky AT pilots or is it the fault of sucky AT instructors? I can't see any possible way that if it's an issue that simple it's not the consequence of a total shit u$hPa pilot proficiency program.

- And whenever somebody:
-- gets totaled the first thing u$hPa does is shred all their records - not that the AT instructor's name is recorded in the first place.
-- survives with his memory intact does he ever make a statement supporting the crap you're writing? Can you quote one sentence or provide one video clip which validates it?

In the REAL world when shit performance is a national discussion topic the education and training institutions get talked about and scrutinized. In hang gliding it's the instructors and schools and their operatives who control the conversations.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

Davis wrote pretty extensively about this when the comp-fatality happened, and even shared how the comp rules were written to ENCOURAGE "when in doubt, just get out".

- EVEN *SHARED* how the comp rules were written. How extremely generous of him.

- And see just how great they worked! Maybe a trip back to the front of the line isn't enough of an incentive. Maybe he should throw in a day pass to Disney World.

- Davis's comp safety record is pure unadulterated shit. Maybe we should start listening to people who AREN'T Davis.

- Here's what Davis ACTUALLY SAID:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.

This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?

Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC

EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.

So apparently the pitch became far too great far too fast as a consequence of letting go of the bar with one hand. And the first procedure he was supposed to implement to bring the situation back under control was to let go of the bar with one hand again?

- Here's a thought - and I'm totally fucking serious. Use comp rules the polar opposite of the deadly fraudulent crap Davis has been perpetrating for decades. Penalize the crap outta anybody who comes off tow for any reason. Send the motherfucker to the back of the line where he belongs and multiply his score for the day by 0.5. That would discourage the use of extra safe fishing line and pro toad bridles. A Jeff Bohl would be inclined to think:
-- a lot harder about whether or not he was really configured for launch
-- twice about reaching for a camera dangling from its safety lanyard prior to reaching the desired altitude

Frankly, a lockout should never happen...

- Yeah, well that's what happens when you permit a bunch of clueless muppets to fly hang gliders. We should limit participation in the sport to professional pilots - like the last two guys who splattered the runway at Quest.

- The way they never happen in sailplane towing. I guess that's because sailplane people are a lot smarter than hang glider people and thus never fly their planes into lockouts. Nothing, of course, to do with the fact that hang gliders have the tow force pulling on and through their control system and that the hang glider control system becomes nonexistent when the pilot makes the easy reach to the bent pin piece o' shit he's thinking he'll use...

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png


...for a release.

...it's not a single failure...

Nah, it's the consequence of decades of ignorance, stupidity, and corruption.

...and it's not a problem with the equipment...

- Which has track records longer than anything else on the planet - 'cept of course for the focal point of the safe towing system. In early 2013 everybody suddenly became happy with a weak link 54 percent heavier than the tried and true one - with not the slightest hint of an explanation or justification. And weak links totally disappeared from lockout crash discussions.

- If equipment is never the problem then...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof. Numerous designs have evolved over the years--some very good and some not so good. Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past 5 years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers. Listed below are various types of releases available with their attributes and applications.

Provided in Appendix III is a performance test specification for towline releases. This is not presented to give you guidelines for making your own, but rather to make you aware of the requirements of a good release in order to select and purchase good equipment (See Appendix IV).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/15 23:30:11 UTC

There does tend to be a lot of "Reinventing The Wheel" that goes on when people try to "Build a Better Mousetrap".

This is fine and dandy if you realize and accept that you are quite literally experimenting with your life.
As over the top as that sounds, it's pretty damn accurate.

I get called a wet blanket a lot, and that's ok. But I've seen a lot of my friends try to put themselves in the hospital "experimenting" with this stuff.

Please realize that there are hidden issues with all this stuff.
It is by no means as straight forward as it looks.

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

I'm also sure it has it's problems just like any other system. The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open

6. Equipment safety check in advance

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:

http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow


and:

http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows



Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

...how come all you Industry operative shits are so rabid about making sure people only fly the bent pin crap you make and sell?

...or with the mechanics or physics of what is being attempted...

And Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight would certainly be the one to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

michael170 - 2012/09/26 19:52:56 UTC

Are you sure about that, Ryan?

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 20:05:16 UTC

You were never taught to run toward the lifting wing?

Yes, I'm sure.

I can (and have) run across a field and steer the glider without ever touching the DT's by simply changing the direction I run. At the beach (or South Side) I like to practice kiting my wing with no hands, and just moving my hips (and stepping if necessary) left/right.

Pulling the hang loop to the right is pulling the hang loop to the right- glider don't care if you're dangling beneath it or still touching the ground. As long as your mains are tight, you can weight shift it!

http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3121
Fatal hang gliding accident

Zack C - 2011/11/14 02:07:28 UTC

Last year I went to a clinic in Utah hosted by Ryan Voight. Ryan's into aerial photography and on a down day we were discussing camera mounts. He had a mount that attached to the base tube and extended out a ways in front of the pilot pointing aft. He said you didn't have to counterweight it because as far as the glider was concerned all the weight was on the base tube where the mount attached.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30824
Article "Pushing Out" Feb 2014 HG mag

NMERider - 2014/02/25 06:05:06 UTC

What part of:

...his rather nonsensical and too-often phantasmagorical version of physics and aerodynamics.

wasn't clear?
Ryan is a classic example of a superbly talented athlete who is ill-equipped to write a comprehensive training manual or academically meaningful text.

...set us all straight on the mechanics and physics of hang glider control and towing.

...a lockout can only happen as the result of operator error(S)... plural.

Mother Nature is POWERLESS to knock us so much as half a degree out from the center of the Cone of Safety.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2011/11

Pilots should also realize that the cone of safety is much smaller when pro-towing than when using a normal 3-point aerotow bridle with an upper tow point, and that lockouts occur much quicker when pro-towing. For these reasons, we discourage pro-towing here at Cloud 9. It is a safety risk that some top comp pilots may wish to take for a miniscule amount of better high speed glide performance, but otherwise is a risk that just isn't worth taking for the vast majority of other pilots who aerotow.

And all these discussions on release performance are totally without merit. Just go up with a hook knife in a sheath on your harness. Simple and one hundred percent effective. What more could one ask for.

I'm trying to be calm and just let you guys argue away... but OMG this is ridiculous already

I hope the people who tolerate your presence in this sport also listen to you and take what you're saying to heart. I'm getting to really enjoy the fatal crashes. I get to feeling more and more that they're getting exactly what they deserve.

And just so you know, I'm not claiming to be high and mighty here...

You don't need to. We know this from all your previous contributions.

I have fallen into the ego trap that is thinking I can save a bad situation on tow... and locked out.

- That totally contradicts everything you've just said. You can't get into a bad situation unless you don't fly the glider. So you decided not to fly the glider until you got into bad situation and then you suddenly decided to start flying it again?

- So you were using a Tad-O-Link? Trading off safety for convenience and eschewing a properly sized weak link?

I however sat my ass down and raked myself over the coals about it... and- although I'm not all that smart- seem to have found some enlightenment that this discussion is lacking.

Until Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight graced us with it.

Think about it. ESPECIALLY with a stationary winch... the pilot just needs to freakin' fly straight in order to avoid a lockout.

Which is always a total no brainer in thermal conditions.

Apparently you've never actually flown in any 'cause flying straight in...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

...thermal conditions - the kind that tumbled and almost killed Adam Parer - requires a lot of massive roll control input delivered two seconds ago and that AIN'T...

Joe Gregor - 2005/07

The accident pilot (Mike Haas) launched via dolly while being towed by a Kolb ultralight. Glider and tug both encountered turbulence while still below 100' AGL. Witnesses observed the glider pitch up "radically" and begin rolling to the left while still under tow. The weak link broke with the glider in an extreme left bank and the glider continued to roll left to enter a near-vertical dive. The glider struck the ground left wing first with a near-90-degree pitch attitude.

...Hang One stuff.

In aerotow, they need to follow the rope/plane. Flying straight is absolutely supposed to be a H1 skill.

- See above, dickhead.

- Which is why Nancy was 100.00 percent responsible for her death. She was a Hang One, she had the skill to fly straight, all she needed to do was fly straight, and she chose not to. Stupid bitch.

Following a (smooth, safe, trustworthy) tow plane pilot...

- ...in smooth, safe, trustworthy morning or evening conditions.

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney if you can get him. And he - unlike Bill Richardson's, Robin Strid's, Mike Haas's, Arlan Birkett's / Jeremy Thompson's, Zack Marzec's, John Claytor's, Jeff Bohl's drivers - can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope.

...shouldn't be much challenge in mellow conditions.

Sorry, motherfucker, I have ZERO interest in towing mellow conditions. I think you'll find the same to be true of most comp pilots.

Increase the challenge of the conditions, and the skill required increases. This is not exclusive to towing.

But just as in free flying, as long as you have the skill you'll always be able to keep the glider flying straight.

Fly the freaking glider well, in situations and conditions within your abilities...

WHAT "ABILITIES"? Tell me who the REALLY SKILLED tow pilots are, the guys who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...and who's who and can really keep their shit together in conditions beyond even comprehension by mere mortals. Bull fucking shit. Towing is nothing but basic up/down/left/right basic Hang 2.0 and nobody on tow is any better than a basic Hang 2.0 and pro toads are massively worse 'cause they've got their heads so far up their asses that they believe there's nothing they can't handle flying a glider with the bar trimmed in full stuffed position.

You get rolled you've got a finite allotment of weight you can apply to counter and if it's not enough you are along for the ride until after you've used your easily reachable release to pry yourself loose and recovered from the ensuing stall - assuming the ground is far enough away to prevent you from being severely inconvenienced.

And if you've got evidence to the contrary then show me the fuckin' video or refer me to an essay by a highly respected tow pilot revealing his secrets...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

...and outlining the recommended training program.

...and it's more than reasonable to say- with maintained diligence and attention- you will never experience a lockout.

And thus you should never look at the ACTUAL worst case scenarios that ACTUALLY kill people at all experience/skill levels and optimize your equipment to eliminate the lethal shortcomings.

Get distracted, make a mistake or three, try it in combined equipment and conditions that ends up requiring more maneuverability than either your skill or equipment can muster...

Wow. I thought you just said:

...and it's not a problem with the equipment or with the mechanics or physics of what is being attempted...

Pick one, motherfucker. If equipment/mechanics can't be a problem then how come:

- in the glassy smooth evening aerobatics air which is the only stuff you ever fly in and talk about you launch...

09-02003
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1627/25962178605_f8d10d1405_o.png


...with the VG slack then crank it on...

13-02306
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1698/25936289086_880146dd50_o.png


...for aero...

19-03217
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1536/25661595880_3ea385b467_o.png

28-04208
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1551/25962165725_29efd47b80_o.png


...then have it pulled back off again...

60-34928
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1618/25962147565_61631bc627_o.png


...for landing. Seems to be some sort of correlation between how critical handling tends to be when you're in the proximity of something that can hurt you.

- glider manufacturers rate baggy single surface gliders for Ones and Twos and topless bladewings for Fours and Fives. Ever hear a survivor of a lockout crash lament not having been on a stiffer wing when the shit hit the fan?

...and either way, it's the pilot's fault...

- 'Specially a Hang One Mission pilot like Nancy.
- And the driver is only a factor when nothing bad happens.

...and recognizing things are going sour and releasing BEFORE entering a lockout...

Or even better...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

...BEFORE there is a problem. Nobody's ever gotten scratched on tow releasing at ten feet when everything was going fine. Anybody who says different is making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is safer than being off tow.

...again means with proper diligence and attention, it is possible to never experience a lockout.

And if you always do a hang check in the staging area...

03-03107
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2931/14074550972_3161a4a62e_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5038/14097754513_33226dd131_o.png
04-03229

...it's possible to never experience an unhooked launch...

09-05019
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/13891086719_3ba7e65d38_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2933/14074543322_a183cc3a23_o.png
10-05124

So make sure never to think and gear for the worst case scenarios that have resulted in so many of our cherished friends dying doing what they loved over the years and decades.

So... on this thread where a release supposedly did not release... why are we not talking about what did the pilot do or not do after that, creating the lockout (if that's what happened)...

- Suck my dick, Ryan. Why are we not talking about the massive cover-up and total information blackout orchestrated by Mission and u$hPa?

- On THIS thread "WE" are. We're talking about:

-- Jeff's cheap stupid dangerous pro toad bridle which decertifies his glider, forces him to keep the bar stuffed just to stay down level with the tug during normal takeoff and climb, eliminates the top half of his normal speed range

-- the potentially lethal consequences of taking a hand off the basetube for any reason - to secure a camera or blow an Industry Standard "release" in an emergency situation / down in the kill zone

-- the danger of using an underpowered tug on a marginal runway which forces a low ninety in order to avoid a treeline

...rather than talking about lockouts like they're lightning bolts from the sky that might strike us out of the blue any time we attempt to tow.

You mean like:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


? Or three months later:



?

But, fuck... Shit like that doesn't happen to us EVERY time we attempt to tow so keep on flying with pro toad bridles, easily reachable bent pin releases, and Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Releases. You'll probably be fine - just like the second glider was.

I'm sorry, but do you guys really not understand flying, towing, to this degree??????????

Fuckin' clueless goddam moron. No Ryan, they don't. Hang glider people in general are idiots, their instructors are the dregs of the gene pool, and understanding the fundamental physics is well beyond the scope of Dr. Lionel D. Hewett, Ph.D. I do, however. And I can explain it to people with functional brains such that they understand it just as well or better.

I'm out.

Again.

Good luck ya'll...

- From another idiot who can't spell "y'all".
- People will need it with dickheads such as yourself being allowed to participate in conversations and not being gutted.

...but I hope these words get through!!!

Me too. Nuthin' like fatalities to undermine the credibility of u$hPa/Industry operatives. Keep up the great work.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

2016/08/22 20:27:46 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/08/22 20:29:02 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Don Arsenault

NMERider - 2016/08/22 20:32:38 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

I hope these words get through!!!

That was really super. Well-written.

Pure unadulterated rot.

I hope this gets incorporated into training regimens.

Anything Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight writes already has been.

Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 23:56:19 UTC

Is it really? The only content in the post was "fly the glider", I certainly hope that gets incorporated into training regimens, we are all saved by this one glorious post.

Took Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney 21 pages of to solve all of our foot landing problems. Not so much as a single slightly bowed downtube anywhere on the planet since.

...when you believe you are entering an unrecoverable lockout?

The trouble with trick questions is that they usually depend on ridged...

Like Pennsylvania west of the coastal plane.

...definition and intent, often intentionally vauge. If one believed that they were about to lockout, they would release... right?

Wrong. In a Jeff Bohl scenario making the easy reach to and prying open the Industry Standard bent pin release will result in an immediate worsening of the situation and an earlier and more violent impact. Pick one.

And note that the Pilot In Command of the tow, the decision of the conspicuously unidentified 582 Dragonfly pilot with the ability to fix whatever was going on back there by giving his United Airlines / pro toad Hang Four comp pilot passenger the rope, elected to retain his passenger on tow to the point that doing so would have sent the command aircraft into the trees and fired the release a few milliseconds after the Tad-O-Link increased the safety of the towing operation.

And not one single Monday morning quarterback individual has:

- offered one single word of criticism of the Pilot In Command for doing a less than stellar job (big fuckin' surprise, seeing as how the loss of a single tug driver can be a death sentence for a major AT site/operation)

- suggested that a Rooney Link, which WOULD have blown at a tension built up only to 65 percent of that to which the Tad-O-Link ultimately allowed, would have resulted in a better outcome

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

I suggest that this is 100.00 percent indisputable PROOF there is ZERO serious disagreement with the fact that the situation that ensued from the point of Jeff grabbing for his camera with one hand was dealt with by both "pilots" as best as possible and that any other course of action would have resulted in a less controlled and more violent impact.

Does anyone sit around on tow thinking "well looks like I'm going to lockout, I think I'll just wait to release until it fully develops" Is that really a thing?

Fuck...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Diev Hart - 2012/03/06 01:06:39 UTC

Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.

...no. Just standard u$hPa cultural blame-the-dead-guy-and-nothing/no-one-but-the-dead-guy rhetoric.

What I was trying to emphasize is that low to the ground, there are cases where a hands free release can save lives.

- Ryan...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

...has one. A bit odd that neither he nor any of his pet cocksuckers are suggesting anything with any semblance to that insanity, dontchya think?

- Oh bullshit...

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 20:51:52 UTC

My whole point is that people tend to "hang on" too long trying to save things, rather than recognize a bad situation and release (one way or another), go back, and reset.

I'm not saying wait until you're so locked out you're passed 90 degrees bank and then pitch up to break the weaklink and do half a loop into the ground. I'm saying get the hell off way before that, and if you can't let go you CAN pop the weaklink pretty easy... they're weak after all

I'm done with this thread. Went from a good discussion RE: one barrel or two, and became a "the sky is falling and towing is death" tyrade. If you don't want to tow, don't... let other's do what they want. Live and let live my friend.

In aviation I think we have a tendency to look at an incident where pilot error is to blame and collectively sigh in relief. After all, it's pilot error, "*I* don't make that error", "it's something that can be fixed by greater vigilance or better training".

Read some Dr. Trisa Tilletti "Higher Education" articles?

As important as reducing pilot error is, it is also important to reduce the penalty for making such errors, and to make the right decisions easier and more intuitive to make.

No. Grabbing for an unstowed dangling camera shortly after takeoff should be an irrevocable death sentence - and scrubbing of a comp day for everyone else.

We fly with a backup hang strap...

I don't. One of the most moronic component components ever installed on a hang glider. (Although it doesn't hold a candle to the Birrenator.)

...despite that the first one should never fail if it's preflighted regularly.

Or once every five to ten years.

Hopefully we fly with releases that work...

Hopefully? We fly with releases we KNOW *WON'T* work. Jeff knew that. What other halfway sane explanation does anyone have for his remaining on tow until the Tad-O-Link blew?

...even under tow pressures that exceed what we should encounter.

- Up to 750 PSI sometimes.

- An ACTUAL *PILOT* knows EXACTLY what tow "PRESSURES" he should encounter - up to the blow point of his weak link. And Quavis isn't gonna say one word about what that was - as the strength of an appropriate weak link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/19 05:35:59 UTC

Any chance this stuff will be allowed at Big Spring this year?

...has been a carefully guarded Industry secret since shortly after the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality of 2013/02/02.

We fly with parachutes despite the fact that the glider shouldn't blow up on us if we stick to the placard limits.

And especially....

28-04208i
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1551/25962165725_29efd47b80_o.png


...if we don't. You should ask Ryan why he's flying with a parachute and helmet.

The best of us make mistakes and miscalculate risks.

Not Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - definitely the best of us and has never made a mistake or miscalculated a risk. He DID launch a tandem unhooked one time and spent a couple months in the hospital but there's no procedure to guard against that kind of accident and the same thing would've happened to any of us in that situation. One of those getting-hit-by-an-asteroid sorts of things.

In some cases, particularly students and new pilots, may freeze up when something starts going very wrong.

Only in fatal cases being reported by instructors and flight parks. When the students and new pilots just get seriously injured or beat up you never hear them reporting that they just froze.

Nothing we do can ever make this perfectly safe, but discussing ways of widening the survival envelope is not wrong.

Yes it is...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

It's absolute anathema to the core operating principles of the organization that's running this sport and looking out for the interests of its commercial operators. What other possible explanation could you have for the nauseating crap Ryan posts to The Jack Show?

I'm trying to be calm and just let you guys argue away... but OMG this is ridiculous already...

I suppose you can have a situation where some may see an argument where others see a discussion.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.

In any case calm is usually the way to go.

Yeah. See what great results you're getting with calm.

So... on this thread where a release supposedly did not release...

I don't think anyone said anything about a release that did not release, please quote what you are talking about.

ziggyc, Nancy's nonflyer significant other, who waded in and made a lot of foot-shot pronouncements.

I'm sorry, but do you guys really not understand flying, towing, to this degree??????????

Quote the comment you are referring to with this statement please, with your objection. Blanket inflammatory statements are not helpful.

They are to Ryan and his ilk.

NMERider - 2016/08/23 00:36:54 UTC

I don't think anyone said anything about a release that did not release, please quote what you are talking about.

Read this post:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=390347#390347

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Ryan Voight - 2016/08/19 18:20:43 UTC
Re: Tragedy at Tres Pinos April 3rd, 2016

And now there is a supply of Russian mouth releases available here in the U.S. AFAIK - These require maintaining a firm bite down on the grip and as soon as the pilot releases his bite on the grip it will release. This sounds wonderful until one considers what would happen if there is a sudden pitch up event and the pilot gasps.

This sounds wonderful AFTER one considers what would happen if there is a sudden pitch up event and the pilot gasps. The safety of the towing operation is increased - at the expense of o bit of inconvenience. Big fuckin' deal. Or are you trying to make more of this crappy argument that somehow being on tow is safer than being off tow?

The last time I gasped my mouth opened involuntarily.

No, Jonathan, I don't consider what would happen if there is a sudden pitch up event and the "pilot" gasps. The operative word there is PILOT. And one doesn't consider what some idiot would do if he's stalled downwind back towards the slope and tries to slow the glider down using non pilot intuitive response. It's counterintuitive as hell to turn our gliders to the left...

54-3610
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5727/22892228096_8ce76b8d23_o.png


...by pushing our bodies to the left and angling them such that we're aiming to the right. First day of lessons, second class, seventh flight I ate some major sand slamming back into the dune and took a big step towards becoming a pilot.

We don't undermine support for equipment because of what we SPECULATE some lowest common denominator MIGHT do in a clutch situation. Anybody with enough in the way of brains to be using a bite controlled release is acutely aware of what a lockout, stall, the difference between a release and a weak link, the situations which mandate remaining on and coming off tow are.

There have been one or more fatal accidents...

Crashes.

...that involved suddenly coming off of tow during a pitch up event.

My, my... How times and the conversations have changed over the course of the past four seasons.

In one case the glider whip stalled then tumbled into the ground killing the pilot.

Passenger. That guy was along for the ride with his pro toad bridle dictating how much airspeed he could use and his Rooney Link very clearly providing protection from excessive angles of attack.

There is a video of a Falcon coming off of tow suddenly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

...then whip stalls, pitches over going inverted briefly but recovering.

I made this point about safety equipment that create new ways to get killed because that it was it often does. This includes weak links which have been known to fail at the worst possible time resulting in whip stalls and crashes.

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

A weak link is NOT safety equipment. It's an overload protector and if it's geared as an overload protector and does its job down in the kill zone there's a good chance that the glider it just protected from overload will end up as a crumpled heap. On the other hand, if the pilot absorbs most of the impact...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

05
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7339/27177358505_cb77967e9d_o.png
14

...the glider can finish the day in pretty good shape.

In aviation safety and control are synonyms. Weak links, parachutes, helmets can only come into play in dangerous situations when or after control has been lost.

Airthug makes a valid point about not allowing the situation to get out of hand in the first place.

How fortunate we are to be able to bask in his wisdom. We will now all take extra precautions in order not to allow situations to get out of hand in the first place. Pity this insight has come too late to do Tomas, Nancy, Jeff any good.

Although you may disagree with this philosophy it does have a great deal of merit just as improving releases has a great deal of merit.

Nobody will ever improve upon the releases I developed.

Relying too heavily upon flawless pilot performance is wonderful until a flaw in the pilot's performance appears.

Or the air isn't as glassy smooth as it is in all of Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight's emergency scenarios.

Relying upon flawless releases or safety equipment is wonderful until that fatal flaw in the equipment rears its ugly head and kills the unwary pilot just as dead as the flaw in his performance.

Or you could just use releases that have been designed and engineered to not have fatal flaws like they do with the gliders themselves. Go ahead and name one release malfunction that wasn't fuckin' obvious to anybody with an IQ in the mid double digits or better between preflight and three decades ago.

Oh good grief, what's a poor lil ole pilot like me ever to do?

Well, you just did something. You said that Rooney Link pops are dangerous. For well over three decades that was an aeronautical impossibility in hang gliding and anybody who begged to differ would've had untold scores of Jack and Davis Show monkeys throwing their shit all over him.

[note: this is a trick question]

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/08/23 04:46:20 UTC

There are undoubtedly times when a hands free release would be beneficial, like during the takeoff roll.

Name some times on tow when one wouldn't.

I've seen pilots release the cart early and get a wing lifted or have a hand slip off of one of the cart handles early.

They should foot launch. Simpler = Safer.

Maybe a bite release is a practical solution or maybe there is some better system waiting to gain popularity.

Or maybe there's some better system...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34229
AT release

...getting pissed all over by swarms of Jack Show dickheads every time it gets mentioned.

Recently at Big Spring I had some trouble following the trike that I was towing behind in some active "big" air.

The kind that doesn't exist in Ryanworld?

I think it's important not to wait until you're in a lockout to release.

Name some people who do. Show me a video of someone who knows left from right heading for a lockout and not releasing because he doesn't wanna suffer the inconvenience of getting back in line and relighting.

Ryan says:

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 20:14:50 UTC

And just so you know, I'm not claiming to be high and mighty here... I have fallen into the ego trap that is thinking I can save a bad situation on tow... and locked out.

to support this Industry fabrication about the cause of lockout fatalities being deliberate safety compromises in ill advised efforts to save bad tows but the motherfucker was at an altitude at which it didn't matter. He doesn't say he just barely pulled out at single digit altitude - the way Marc Fink does when he makes every effort to abort the tow as soon as possible...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

...with his easily reachable bent pin pro toad release and his precisely calibrated 250 foot weak link.

The tug was in some big time sink and I got a wing popped in some lift.

Wow. Moving air all over the place and going in different directions. Who'da thunk. Certainly not Donnell Hewett, Dennis Pagen, Bill Bryden, Peter Birren, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight.

The tow line was headed for my corner bracket so I released.

Why didn't your:

- glider autostabilize as the towline pulled you under the high wing? The way Ryan's does when he runs under the high wing in the practice field?

- standard aerotow weak link break before you could get into too much trouble?

No harm done. Land and try again or climb out from a lower altitude.

There's NEVER any harm done when you're high enough to be able to climb out from a lower altitude.

Personally I would much rather error on the side of releasing in some possibly recoverable situations than getting in the habit of never releasing.

But let's not bother getting a release that doesn't stink on ice. Let's not go totally nuts with this tow safety thing.

I also think it's important to practice using secondary releases occasionally so you remember it's an option when under pressure.

If you're under pressure when you have a primary failure it's not an option. Cite an incident which indicates otherwise.

I use my secondary release about every third flight or so.

You should also practice using your parachute about every fifth flight or so for when your primary bridle wraps at the tow ring and you find your self flying one point from the keel.

Just don't hit the primary release after already releasing with the secondary or you will be shopping for a new tow bridle.

I did that ONCE. Had an accidental release from an experimental emergency secondary then pulled my bungee powered primary to tighten/clean up the stuff in the airflow without thinking through the implications.

I've also been in a situation on a new wing where I was PIOing all over the sky...

PIO is pretty much the opposite of a lockout.

...but couldn't bring myself to release because of my death grip on the control bar...

Or maybe you couldn't bring yourself to release because over-control is less dangerous than zero-control.

...and was truly grateful when the tug pilot gave me the rope.

Holly Korzilius was too when Tex Forrest fixed whatever was going on back there just as she was completing an oscillation cycle and just before she almost pulled out of the ensuing stall.

I've seen tug pilots make some really good split second decisions to dump the rope and have saved some pilots some serious injuries.

- After making some really shit decisions to tow them on releases that stank on ice.

- Guess since none of them actually hit - let alone got killed - no incident reports were in order.

- Any comment on Jeff Bohl's driver? Wasn't exactly a split second sorta situation from what I heard.

- Must've been using Tad-O-Links, huh?

- So I guess they're going back up on the same shit equipment now confident that more split second decisions of tug pilots will keep saving them from serious injuries.

- Ever hear of any really crappy split second decisions to dump the rope that have killed pilots who'd have been OK otherwise? (Corey Burk / Rob Richardson.)

- Damn, those guys are good! Any thoughts on why the Pilots In Command make and execute those critical, life saving, split second decisions so well...

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...while their passengers...

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...are always trying to save bad situations they should've aborted immediately.

- If you've seen multiple instances of this we've got a serious problem. (Big surprise.) If we've got a recreational weekender flyer seeing this much shit then what are the flight park operators seeing and not telling us about?

Thank them and buy them the beverage of their choice for saving your bacon if it happens to you.

- That's the job of the...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:26:54 UTC

I thought that I had made it clear that I want weaklinks and I want weaklinks to break to save the pilot's bacon.

...Davis Link. What's your opinion on why it's not working?

- FUCK those guys. It virtually ALWAYS requires massive incompetence on BOTH ends of the string to precipitate a serious tow crash. A tug driver has a responsibility - a total responsibility if you listen to the crap Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney spews about being the Pilot In Command of BOTH planes - to ensure that the:
- back-ender knows how to fly and is properly and legally equipped
- conditions are appropriate for the exercise

And none of these motherfuckers actually do any of this and never engage in the postmortem discussions, identify themselves, get identified, admit to having done the slightest thing...

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...wrong.

Be Safe,

Yeah, let's be careful out there.

Dan

Yeah, just as long as that doesn't entail anything like configuring yourself with the best equipment possible. Just keep on going up with the crap you've been using and counting on some asshole flying his own piece o' crap 250 feet in front of you and maybe watching your reflection in a convex / wide angle mirror to make the right split second decisions to keep you alive. Sounds like a plan to me.

2016/08/23 06:56:18 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Christensen

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