Kite Strings

You're welcome. Rated this one for good measure too.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=149669#149669

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9653.html#p9653

Thanks again. Nice to see.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

RBT - 2016/09/25 06:25:51 UTC
Queensland

Hope its...

It's.

...OK to bump such an old thread.

- Sure. Just make sure not to say or do anything of any substance that threatens to move the sport in a positive direction / help pull it out of its current death spiral.

- Funny you should bring that incident/discussion back up just now. I myself referenced it a wee bit over eleven days previously.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9630.html#p9630

Noob questions.

If you want more clueless answers like a lot of what you've seen in that thread so far you're posting in the right place. Be advised however that you won't be hearing any more keenly intellectual contributions from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney there - or anywhere else. We took care of THAT motherfucker but good.

Why is there such resistance to using mouth releases in all forms of towing in HG?

Only in the West. In Russia, former USSR turf, Eastern Europe everyone and his dog uses them. And those areas are - as far as I can tell - 100.0 percent devoid of consequential towing incidents.

Why is it that the most experienced and vocal pilots in this sport don't recognise there...

Their.

...obvious safety advantages and come out and lobby for their use on forums like this?

- They DO recognize their obvious safety advantages. That's why they're gonna make every possible effort to sabotage efforts to get them into circulation.

- ALL glider forums are like this - 'cept for this one.

Why have tow parks/operators not recognised the same and encouraged their use?

Wouldn't doing so be admissions that they'd put untold thousands of cheap, deadly pieces o' shit into circulation and precipitated a lot of death and destruction that never should've happened?

In the title video on this thread, imagine what could have happened to a less experienced pilot in the same situation...

- This WAS a less experienced - or totally clueless - "pilot" towing behind an arrogant total moron. He flew his glider into the lockout by maintaining position straight behind the truck in a substantial left cross.

- Probably nothing. Steve would've dumped tension and he'd have probably come out trailing the towline and smelling like a rose.

- Who gives a flying fuck what happens to less experienced "pilots" who don't/can't execute basic Hang 2.0 flying skills. They're not supposed to be / put in situations over their heads.

- EXPERIENCE has shit to do with any of this. The last two Quest fatalities were professional pilots with experience coming outta their asses. On their last flights they were two 2.0 dopes on ropes at the mercy of their bozo drivers and total shit pro toad "equipment".

...i.e not only not pulling in when roll correcting...

This is just more Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight total fucking bullshit. Here's the sequence of what's going on with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilD-0Mw_9qg


01-0000
- 01 - chronological order
- 00 - seconds
- 00 - frame (30 fps)

01-0000


See the windsock and streamer?

02-0112

03-1126

04-2103

05-2127


Good job resisting the glider's natural inclination to drift downwind of the truck's path, Avolare. Keep showing that thing who's boss.

06-2227

07-2312

08-2324

09-2404

10-2418

11-2504


There.

12-2602


Got it upwind of the truck a bit. Got a little margin in case the glider gets really insistent upon drifting.

13-2627


OK, RBT. Here we are less than half a second away from lockout onset.

14-2710


Ignoring the issues of the crosswind and glider position - taking the still in isolation such that you can't tell anything about the crosswind issue - what's Avolare doing wrong?

15-2726


I don't know what these Jack Show assholes think a lockout is but this isn't an ALMOST lockout. This is a LOCKOUT. This tow has become unrecoverable as long as the tension remains constant on this constant tension system.

16-2812


This is the frame u$hPa Certified Dipshit Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight selected to illustrate how clueless this Manquin product is.

17-3001


Here's his idiot fucking commentary:

Ryan Voight - 2010/09/03 20:52:06 UTC

In a nutshell.... PULL INNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your position in the below photo, is exactly what aerobatic pilots look like while doing spins. You're high-siding to correct for the turn... but you're also pushing way out.

When you lean right to turn, the glider turns because you're loading up the right wing more, causing more sail billow on that side. You're also UN-loading the left wing, allowing it to get flatter and more efficient.

Hang gliders have twist at the tips, so that generally the root of the wing stalls before the tips (because the root is at a higher angle of attack than the tips, due to the twist in the wing).

Well, if you think about these principles... leaning right removes some twist from the left wing, increasing it's angle of attack. Leaning right also adds twist to the right wing, lowering it's angle of attack. Do this, and push out the right amount, and you can stall one wing, while keeping the other wing flying. Hold that position, and you can KEEP one wing stalled, while the other wing continues to fly around and around....

It looks something like this:
http://vimeo.com/6362264


It's fun when you do it on purpose.... not so much when it's unintentional

Although I obviously don't practice what I preach, I don't really condone doing spins..... but I DO think it's important that people understand the aerodynamics involved, so they can NOT do them

Moral of the story... pull in while correcting a lifted wing

This has absolute shit to do with how Avolare got INTO the lockout. This is how he's RESPONDING to it - one hundred percent appropriately given the shit equipment he's elected to go up on.

Or is Ryan here:

53-15300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1705/25333433883_7ec8c878e9_o.png

55-15702
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1532/25936264316_45447c8ccf_o.png


on the ragged edge of losing control and going into a spin because he's pushed out as much as physically possible? While not using one hand to effect the easy reach to his Industry Standard release?

And now let's hear from Ryan's boyfriend helping solve more of our muppet problems for us.

Jim Rooney - 2010/09/04 03:27:47 UTC

Sh*t happens.
I don't care who you are or how "prepared", or "skilled", or whatever, you are... you will find yourself behind the 8 ball some day. It's what you do when it does that matters.

And yeah... in this case... pull in.
It doesn't matter how low you are... pull the hell in. Your level of roll control is exponentially related to your AOA.

It's important to remember that this is truck towing, NOT aerotowing.
They are very different beasts.
You can very easily lock out and slam into the ground with that weaklink hooked up.

Truck towing is a pressure regulated system. That line tension will remain the same (relatively) as you tow, all the way till you hit the earth.

Aerotowing is a static system, I can snap that weaklink at will.
Not so with truck towing.

flysurfski - 2010/09/04 06:08:40 UTC
Torrey Pines

IMO these are some words of wisdom Jim

18-3003


Look carefully at the next:
- two frames and you can tell where Avolare's right hand ISN'T
- frame and you can see the retrieval 'chute disappearing behind his harness and confirm that he's still on tow

19-3011

20-3012

21-3022


Look Ma! One hand!

22-3029

23-3101

24-3104

25-3106


But that's never an issue in Voight/RooneyWorld.

26-3120


Muppet's pretty over and pushed out HERE:

27-3221


Must be getting pretty close to a spin.

28-3326

29-3423

30-3515

31-3524

32-3611

33-3713

34-4100


And the usual problems getting tangled up in the tail wires, missing the control tubes making the transitions.

35-4104

36-4107

37-4109

38-4112

39-4116

40-4121

41-4204

42-4217

43-4222

44-4228

45-4304

46-4313

47-4925

48-5028

49-5121

50-5729


But let's keep using emergency equipment - which what a release is in all low level lockout situations - and critical flight stage procedures which mandate getting hands off basetubes and waving around in the wind.

...but panicking and not finding the release in time.

Define "in time". Can there be a tow situation it which ANY time off the basetube is too much? It's pretty fucking obvious Jeff Bohl believed that to be the case on his last flight.

I realise that mouth releases are not even mentioned in towing reference material like Pagan's...

Pagen's.

..."Towing Aloft".

Fuck no. In that bullshit he and Bill Bryden perpetrated on the public there's not even an advantage to having an AT basetube mounted actuator like:

1-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

2-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

3-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png

But there has been enough references to them in other online literature.

Where? And if you've got an answer to that then where more than here?

What am I missing?

A voice.

Helen McKerral - 2010/09/06 03:38:29 UTC

Someone is missing from this thread...

Several voices actually.

Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9652.html#p9652

- Funny you should bring that incident/discussion back up just now. I myself referenced it a wee bit over eleven days previously.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9630.html#p9630

Which is why I linked to it here.
"Pushing the Limits" of Me & My Sport 2 155
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=391593#391593

Where it's so far been totally ignored big surprise. Oh well, we keep plugging away we seem to eventually (years) make some serious dents.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Red Howard - 2016/09/25 13:21:31 UTC

RBT,

The short answer is history. In the bad old days of HG, one power unit used a "mouth throttle" to control the engine power.

They all used bite controlled throttles - asshole. Still do. Mosquito. Mechanism makes for a pretty goddam good...



...release actuator.

It worked, but if the pilot tripped, a face-plant could ram the thing back into the brainstem, which was usually fatal, or worse.

- Shove it back up your ass.

- Tow pilots rarely need to - and shouldn't - foot launch. I'd say that the danger of foot launching totally dwarfs the danger of going up with an easily reachable release.

Aside from that, holding anything in your teeth can cause tooth discomfort or dislocations, or a wave of nausea.

Yeah. Except for with the people who actually use them.

Almost any accident with a gadget in your teeth can cause broken teeth.

Whereas if you don't have a gadget in your teeth there's no fuckin' way...

34-03715
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/14877659539_4d1333c6a3_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3845/15061342651_ecc43c3f4f_o.png
36-04005

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


10-307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1660/26132155836_82b94d6550_o.png

11-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2550/12981131483_dde259c80d_o.png

12-314
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1534/26156092785_a74b7428ff_o.png

46-1613

53-1704


...you could have any problem with your teeth. (Mostly just noses, lips, jaws, necks, skulls.)

Russia (the source of the mouth release) has free dental care, but the USA does not.

Suck my dick, Red.

That said, I would be strongly in favor of a mouth release that is made from mouth protectors, such as football players and boxers use today.

Well then, since you don't tow and are totally full of shit on multiple issues we'll just ignore all the people who are actually flying these things on what we're seeing on all the videos and go with whatever you say.

All of the reasons for a mouth release are still valid, with the added benefit of protecting the teeth in any incident.

Lemme ask ya sumpin', dickhead...

THIS...

18-22802
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8018/29074015913_b8ee6b33ba_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8482/29074014363_bfb9cfd746_o.png
21-22805

...is how one blows a Kaluzhin release. What's the scenario you're envisioning in which someone hits the ground still clamping the spring clip actuator between his incisors? Ditto for the Mosquito throttle dead-man-switch.

That kind of thing would be safer all around. Campers, raise your voices on this issue!

See my note above about sucking my dick.

2016/09/25 13:54:54 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

Jesus H. Christ, Jonathan. Why do you do shit like this?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20991
coated vs uncoated wires

Red Howard - 2011/02/22 06:50:21 UTC

I do not recommend "stepping" on a cable (I assume you mean in mid-span) as part of a preflight. If your foot hits the ground with the cable underneath, or sand or rocks are trapped in your shoe treads, you could damage the cable that you are testing.

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52001736214_09e28729ca_o.jpg


This piece o' shit QUACK needs to be DESTROYED - not patronized and legitimized.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Brian Scharp - 2016/09/25 19:05:29 UTC

RBT - 2016/09/25 06:25:51 UTC

Hope its OK to bump such an old thread.
Noob questions.

Why is there such resistance to using mouth releases in all forms of towing in HG?

Why is it that the most experienced and vocal pilots in this sport don't recognise there obvious safety advantages and come out and lobby for their use on forums like this?

Why have tow parks/operators not recognized the same and encouraged their use?

In the title video on this thread, imagine what could have happened to a less experienced pilot in the same situation, i.e not only not pulling in when roll correcting, but panicking and not finding the release in time.

I realise that mouth releases are not even mentioned in towing reference material like Pagan's "Towing Aloft". But there has been enough references to them in other online literature. What am I missing?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Tad Eareckson (AeroTow) - 2009/11/03 15:28:14 UTC

That's great advice for winning an aerobatics competition - and an almost sure-fire recipe for getting a tow pilot killed instantly.

And you're TEACHING this stuff?

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 20:51:52 UTC

Coming from a guy who's username is aerotowing, yet has nothing good to say about it... that's pretty funny

We should go towing some time... I can teach you how to break weaklinks intentionally, before things get too bad... then you can show me how you put things in your mouth

My whole point is that people tend to "hang on" too long trying to save things, rather than recognize a bad situation and release (one way or another), go back, and reset.

I'm not saying wait until you're so locked out you're passed 90 degrees bank and then pitch up to break the weaklink and do half a loop into the ground. I'm saying get the hell off way before that, and if you can't let go you CAN pop the weaklink pretty easy... they're weak after all

I'm done with this thread. Went from a good discussion RE: one barrel or two, and became a "the sky is falling and towing is death" tyrade. If you don't want to tow, don't... let other's do what they want. Live and let live my friend.

RBT - 2016/09/25 21:14:10 UTC

Yeah, I have read most of those old threads. Got some good info out of them but its tiresome having to wade through posts from people who don't have the social skills to conduct an amicable online discussion. The info about breaking weak links to escape a bad situation is crazy considering new people to the sport would be reading it. As if newbies are going to have the skills to do something like this.
The other guy seems to favour mouth releases but then designs something that looks positively dangerous, i.e, a basebar release that is incorporated into the bar itself. However if you look at the actual release mechanism it requires that you hold a string (with a stopper on the end) between your fingers that attaches to a pin. You would only need a bit of turbulence to move that hand one/two inches inward and you would have an unintentional/accidental release. Imagine that happening at a high AOA with a beginner on board.

Yeah, I have read most of those old threads.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

Got some good info out of them...

Like what? How to use your standard aerotow weak link as an instant hands free release?

...but its tiresome having to wade through posts from people who don't have the social skills to conduct an amicable online discussion.

The kinds of amicable online discussions that have been so valuable in advancing the sport to the state in which we find it today.

The info about breaking weak links to escape a bad situation is crazy...

And who were the people:
- advocating that "technique"?
- denouncing it for the deadly lunatic bullshit it actually was?

...considering new people to the sport would be reading it.

The old people in the sport being totally immune to deadly lunatic bullshit.

As if newbies are going to have the skills to do something like this.

Yeah, it's not a skill you have right away. It's something you keep practicing until you can do it consistently and flawlessly at thirty feet and get your IHFR Special Skill signoff.

The other guy...

-

- You mean "the other guy" who DID/DOES have the social skills to conduct an amicable online discussion?

- "The other guy" has a name which appears in full on that page (the first) of that thread. Also...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...in the Jack Show Mission Statement.

...seems to favour mouth releases...

He NEVER refers to them as "mouth releases". He despises that term. They don't release and/or go into mouths. They have actuators which go between the pilot's incisors and are controlled by a bite, tug, or relaxation of a bite.

...but then designs something that looks positively dangerous...

Well if it looks positively dangerous to you it certainly must be. The guy who spent years designing, testing, flying, refining, photographing, documenting it must have his head totally up his ass for it not to look equally positively dangerous to him.

...i.e, a basebar release that is incorporated into the bar itself.

- You mean the way all VG systems are incorporated into the starboard downtube itself?
- Sounds complicated. You're right. Positively dangerous.

However if you look at the actual release mechanism it requires that you hold a string (with a stopper on the end) between your fingers that attaches to a pin.

If you look at the actual release mechanism it'll be up on the fuckin' keel:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8307037970/


where it RELEASES the top end of the TWO point bridle. Do try to learn the difference between a release mechanism and an actuation system (and how to count up to five or so accurately). I know that's a pretty tall order in a culture in which 99.9 percent of the actuation systems are easy reaches - but give it a shot anyway.

The ACTUATION system:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/


That's the complex stuff that makes it really dangerous.

You would only need a bit of turbulence to move that hand one/two inches inward and you would have an unintentional/accidental release.

Oh my GOD! An insurmountable problem! We couldn't lengthen the Secondary Lanyard to THREE inches because 205 Dacron leechline isn't available in that length. (Fuckin' total moron.)

Imagine that happening at a high AOA with a beginner on board.

- An inconvenience.

- It was Team Kite Strings (and that brave Zack Marzec lad) that made it possible for you douchebags to say that coming off tow under any circumstances could be the least bit dangerous. Prior to February of 2013 the Jack Show monkeys would've been throwing shit all over you for such an insinuation. Now... Nuthin' but crickets.

- How 'bout a weak link? What are you twenty miles south of useless Aussie dickheads...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

...using for a weak link nowadays and what are your expectations...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...of it? I'm guessing not as a pitch and lockout protector based upon your participation in this thread. We still putting beginners up on...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...extra safe weak links?

- Damn near everything in aviation is a tradeoff. Early in the later stages of development of my system I was going for hair trigger and I blew off twenty feet when I adjusted my grip a little. So...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC

Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.

You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.

...guess what I did to make sure that never happened again. Long enough not to blow off inadvertently, short enough so as not to require excessive MOVEMENT...

26-1608c


...to separate.

3-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


Maybe run that concept through your head a few times and see if you can make some kind of sense out of it.

Fuck you, dude. You know who I am - I've always used my full name wherever I've posted - and where to find me. But you're posting over in the Living Room of Jack's Mutual Masturbation Society where the sociopathic dickhead who's maintained full dictatorial control for the decade plus of its miserable existence won't permit mention of my name. And you've made ZERO effort to engage me directly.

Furthermore...

You identify yourself as a "noob". I started towing in the fall of 1980 at the tail end of the frame hook-up era likely before you were born, have flown about every kind of system you can think of and then some, and have watched the technology, culture, and carnage like a fuckin' hawk ever since.

You hook up with Entelin. I have every confidence that you two will get along famously.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Matt Pruett - 2016/08/23 06:00:58 UTC

NMERider - 2016/08/23 00:36:54 UTC

This sounds wonderful until one considers what would happen if there is a sudden pitch up event and the pilots gasps. The last time I gasped my mouth opened involuntarily.

That's certainly true. I wonder though which impulse is more likely to kill someone, an early release, or failure / late release due to the conflict between control and release actuation.

I have no idea, ent. Let's ask Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

I've seen a handful of students lock out, it's always been pilot error...

The instructors and drivers of course being totally blameless.

...but it's made me think about the subject somewhat.

Oh good. Now that your thinking has been brought to bear on the subject I see a ray of hope.

As it has all of us I'm sure.

I now find myself totally blinded by the rays of hope now.

Certainly there's no universal answer, and there's plenty of innovative ways pilots can kill themselves, that's for sure.

- Bull fucking shit. Try reading some old (read: reasonably good) reports and watching some videos.

- We're not the least bit interested in preventing "pilots" from innovating ways to kill themselves - like removing the tow ring from the end of the line and running the bridle through a weak link.

Airthug makes a valid point about not allowing the situation to get out of hand in the first place.

A spectacularly valid point. If only people would get what he's saying.

Although you may disagree with this philosophy...

I don't at all disagree, it's important to release if you start questioning your ability to get back in line with the tow...

...while not questioning the inconvenience ramifications of...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...instantly dumping a couple hundred pounds of what's pulling you mostly forward and up.

...don't try fighting it all the way into a lockout.

Get fucked. I'm so SICK of hearing this Industry crap explaining why we got two dead students and one dead pro toad this year by a month into spring.

My only disagreement is how it was presented. I'm sure there are some cases of poor instruction...

It SUCKS. ALL of IT. If it didn't you'd have somebody who knows how to do things right speaking up and getting things on track. But that's a cultural impossibility the way things have been stacked.

...but in the vast majority of cases where a student locks out low it wasn't due to lack of understanding, but rather a lack of doing.

Ya think?

Instincts that run counter to correct actions, freezing up, or inability to successfully perform tasks under pressure that you haven't had much experience with.

No shit, Sherlock. So what are these "instructors" doing putting STUDENTS in way the fuck over their heads and getting them killed?

NMERider - 2016/08/23 07:02:08 UTC

My only disagreement is how it was presented.

Many pilots have ways of presenting information that may be rather off-putting although the points themselves are valid and instructive.

Good. Anybody who ignores, dismisses information based upon how it's packaged deserves whatever happens to him.

Unfortunately that is often the nature of people who advance in the sport and are willing to write posts online.

And do the jobs for free that the instructors were supposed to have done for pay.

I'm sure there are some cases of poor instruction...

Repetition to develop muscle memory and solid training is essential.

28-1612c


...over and over until you get it right and can do it reflexively in any situation that could possibly come your way.

There are many counterintuitive aspects to safe flying.

One, for example, might be inclined to prone out and effect control with BOTH hands as the glider's being turned away from tow - while we all know from our training that the proper response is to stay or go upright and start fumbling around for an easily reachable state-of-the-art release lanyard with one hand.

e.g. spin recovery. Gliders that have enough VG to really flatten the sail can spin at extreme nose-down attitudes while turning pretty fast. The intuitive reaction is to push out to make the glider recover but this makes the glider spin more aggressively. The way to stop the spin is by...

...going upright, maintaining optimal control with one hand on the control tube at shoulder or ear height while flailing around for an imaginary state-of-the-art release lanyard with the other, and...

...letting the bar in. But that's counterintuitive as are many things were we must be trained enough to overcome our instincts.

Anything in this game that was counterintuitive I didn't NEED to be trained to do. I figured out the difference between left and right - with a little help from a dune in the face - and everything else was pretty easy after that. We don't have a big problem with guys putting tight VG T2Cs into spins and reacting "intuitively" to get out of them.

Raymond Caux - 2016/08/23 10:05:02 UTC
Göteborg, Sweden

Lots of good points, both for the pros (dayhead) and cons.

These Jack Show Mutual Masturbation Society discussions are so extremely valuable. Just imagine where the sport would be today without them.

Reading the articles in http://www.fai.org/civl-our-sport/safety, a general trend appears: in the long term, human mistake is 100% sure.

Especially in a sport conducted under the auspices of the FAI and the pertinent national associations.

I think there is a bias when writing the pilot should release before etc.: confidence in the human.

Yeah, just the point the inventor of the Birrenator makes so eloquently:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7066
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Peter Birren - 2009/05/10 01:33:31 UTC

If you want a truly foolproof release, it's got to be one that eliminates the pilot from the equation with a release that operates automatically.

Fuckin' HUMANS trying to operate in the AIR as PILOTS. Of course they're gonna make mistakes like the ones Tomas Banevicius, Nancy Tachibana, and Jeff Bohl made - regardless of the excellent training and equipment we've provided them. We're doing the best jobs possible with this and getting what Ryan Voight's saying about the issue.

After each accident, we must think we wouldn't have made that mistake, otherwise it's unbearable and questions our own practice.

And those of us who know what the fuck we're doing are perpetually astounded by the stupidity of what we're seeing in the fatalities and SOP stuff in which these assholes almost always luck out.

Accidents happen so seldom we can get away with the feeling this sport is rather safe after all, and we'll get through without damage if we are careful, at least we say that to wuffos during presentations. But every couple of years, somebody locks out, forgets to hook in or whatever. Seldom is not never. There is a chance it happens, just a matter of time. Not only beginners or old tired pilots get trapped, world class competitors too.

Yeah, we're all just rolling dice.

Becoming more tolerant about our weaknesses, we need a more forgiving environment.

The gene pool needs LESS forgiving environments - physical and social.

I've got a little PG-like kite with only one line, the yaw is rock stable, but such a feature is probably impossible within flexwing design trade-offs. Then a flawless release system is even more required...

Dontchya think that if such a system were within the realm of human engineering we'd have developed it and everyone would already be using it already? I say we stay with the tried and true state-of-the-art stuff we're using now.

...as a towed flexwing won't remain straight hands off.

Sure it will. As it rolls off to the side the towline pulls the pilot under the high wing and weight shits it back to straight and level.

So I'm with dayhead, quite recently after years of safety studies, and particularly the conclusion of http://www.fai.org/downloads/civl/ohare .

2003/03/29 - Steve Parson / Eleni Zeri. The guy's a total moron.

Luke Waters - 2016/08/23 19:36:03 UTC

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/08/23 04:46:20 UTC

I also think it's important to practice using secondary releases occasionally so you remember it's an option when under pressure. I use my secondary release about every third flight or so.

This is not a good idea.

No. It's a fuckin' FANTASTIC idea.

In the event (about 1/1000 releases)...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

... that the long bridal becomes snagged to the carabiner, you are instantly being towed by your keel only.

So let's make all our bridals as long, thin, and cheaply as possible.

Look up the reports of this being tested (maybe by Russel and Jon I think?).

Jim Prahl.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3034
Weak Links and Tow Bridles

Jim Rooney - 2008/02/10 23:03:31 UTC

It's not like he did it at 5 feet

It did take some cahonez though. I remember him saying that he didn't expect it to be as bad as it was. I'm sure too that it's not as violent as it sounds (but perhaps it was)... what I remember most clearly was "you have no control" and "if I hadn't been able to release, it would have folded the glider". He had -and used- the top release, he just used it second. Yup, there's the tug pilot release and the tug's weaklink too. Jim's not stupid.

DAMN good thing we had a test pilot like that to see what happened when you towed from the keel only. Otherwise we muppets would've expected the glider to tow just fine from the keel only.

Now that ya mention it... I wonder if it would be OK to tow from the port cross spar / leading edge junction. I wonder if Jim would be up for another test flight to check out the viability of that idea.

Being towed by only the keel leads to instant tuck and uncontrolled dive until primary release is activated.

Or the glider breaks up...

07-014327
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8635/16577981019_8e647bc6b0_o.png


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7596/16577980269_1a9a0078a8_o.png
12-014409

...and/or hits the ground. But that's OK, Diev. Probably won't ever happen to you.

We call it the primary release because it should always be used first.

And we call the secondary release the backup 'cause it's OK to pull it and use it as the primary when the designated primary fails.

This info is also in the AT rating written test.

I guess u$hPa's assuming some degree of literacy in its AT candidate pilots.

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/08/23 21:42:53 UTC

I wasn't aware of any additional risk from releasing the secondary as opposed to the primary.

Ridgely and Manquin.

It isn't mentioned in the USHPA AT guide book.

It is in the version I wrote.

Maybe I got that question wrong on the test.

And you wouldn't remember it as something you got wrong that could've killed you. And the thought never occurred to you that a bridle could wrap and what the implications could be.

I do remember practicing using the secondary as part of training.

- In conjunction with a low level lockout simulation?
- And what did you think the SECONDARY was there for? In case the primary didn't work?

Let's consider it. There's a couple of ways I could see a tow bridle becoming wrapped in a standard 3-point tow system.

What is a STANDARD three point tow system?

1. The shoulder bridle could tangle on the main bridle...

Which is why they make it long and thin and don't use a thimble in the bottom end of the primary bridle.

...resulting in the pilot being towed from one shoulder and the keel. This wouldn't seem to be a big deal and should offer the pilot sufficient time to release the other end of the line.

If the release at the other end had worked in the first place then why would you have pulled a secondary?

2. The shoulder bridle is completely released and the primary bridle wraps around the tow line.

It doesn't wrap around the towline. It ties itself to the tow ring / carabiner.

Admittedly, this would be serious. since the control of the wing would be towed by its keel alone. The chance of this happening should be about the same as the chance of the bridle wrapping around the tow line after being released from the primary release, resulting in the pilot being towed from shoulders alone.

What would you predict happens to the probability of a wrap as the tension goes up?

I'm not saying it's impossible but it seems somewhat improbable. Has this happened to anyone?

Not in recent years. So keep releasing from the bottom so's we can get our statistics up to date.

In either case the proper response would seem to be to release the other end of the bridle and failing that, to cut the line away with a hook knife.

And it's totally unimaginable that you could be in a situation that you wouldn't be able to accomplish that with plenty of time left over to be able to rotate upright and adjust your glide to nail the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.

So, good point LW. Releasing the primary release first may seems to reduce the chance of your tow bridle becoming snared on the tow line...

HOW? How much does the tow ring care which end of the bridle is whipping through it when it's making the decision to weld it on?

...just don't forget you have a secondary release and that it may be a good bit more convenient if you find yourself in a situation that demands it.

If there were a minimum 75 IQ requirement for flying hang gliders you'd be able to count the number of participants in the sport on your fingers.

Luke Waters - 2016/08/23 22:49:47 UTC

It is less likely that the short bridal will snag on release because it is short.

Wow! There's a thought! So just how long does the secondary bridal need to be to do its job...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861


...and how long does it need to be to have the capability of wrapping?

I've only heard of a few accounts of a pro tow bridal snagging on release...

Not really a problem then. No need whatsoever to think about making the bridles shorter, fatter, and tapered.

...and they usually result in an instant weak link break on the other side since all force goes through the weak link.

And of course there's no possibility whatsoever...

http://ozreport.com/20.181
Bringing knives to a gun flight

David Thompson

Years later I had something happen while aero towing in North Carolina when I only used a single barrel release. The opposite end of the release line attached to my two shoulder straps tangled at the point of the tow line snagging and would not come undone. I was being towed by one shoulder strap basically. In the amount of time you can count, one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, I reached for used my emergency sharpest escape plan.

During the three one thousand count I had unsuccessful yanked the dam rope and it still wouldn't budge, so I used the thumb quick release of the large sharp sheath double sided diving knife which is on a two foot bungee cord so it can not be separated from the sheath I had sewn to my harness between my shoulder straps nearest my heart

I pulled the knife out to cut away quickly.

...of THE weak link in the system blowing and instantly having doubled and unlimited tension delivered to your...

05-04303
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2933/14077579155_5d00c1324e_o.png


...bent pin barrel release. It's OK to have two bent pin barrel releases...

04-02202
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7329/27174355342_f6fa8c402b_o.png


...but you can only have a weak link on one side 'cause if you had two that would double the tension you'd need to blow off.

The main bridal is more likely to snag because it is longer. It is also less likely to break the remaining weak link since the tow force is still being split in two on the remaining short bridal to both shoulders.

Idiot.

- Ignoring the issue of increased weak link loading due to wider bridle apex angle - which we'll do 'cause you have no fuckin' clue what that's about anyway - it's exactly the same. And there's always a really vicious jolt at the instant of a wrap.

- And of course there's no fuckin' way we could use different strength weak links at different points in our system.

Tandem flight parks who are doing a lot of tows using the 3 point system generally say the main bridal snags on the carabiner in about 1/1000 releases.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

This is a question in the AT written test and the correct answer is use the primary release first at all times in case the bridal becomes snagged.

Is that how they spell "bridle" on the AT written test?

The last thing you want is a pilot who is in a low lock out to panic and hit the secondary release first...

Yeah. That's a real big problem. Pilots panicking in low level lockouts and hitting the secondary release first. Also in high level lockouts.

...running the risk of a snag and being towed by the keel close to the ground.

What panicked pilots do in low level lockouts on shit Industry equipment is exactly what Jeff Bohl did - fly the fuckin' glider. 'Cause that's the option that's gonna allow them to live longest.

You can simulate a snag or failure to release on the ground.

Or you can just go up on a normal tandem training tow...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

...or a tandem certification tow...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...on which you don't need to simulate anything.

Instructor says, "okay release (student hits primary), that didn't work now what do you do? (student hit secondary), that didn't work now what do you do?

Gee, I don't know, LW. Releasing from the bottom first when nothing bad is going on can instantly tuck the glider but it's not a problem after a primary failure in an emergency situation? Have I got that right? Am I ready for the u$hPa written test?

...(student retrieves hook knife to cut weak link) that didn't work now what do you do?

Wait for the chopper 'cause you hit the ground thirty seconds ago?

...(student signals for towplane to release)."

What an astounding load of total crap.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Brian Scharp - 2016/08/23 22:53:38 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11591
Where to put the weaklink - the HGFA rules

Rohan Holtkamp - 2008/04/21

Once again history has shown us that this thread-through system can hook up and the hang glider remains being towed by the keel only, with the bridle well out of reach of even a hook knife. I know of just one pilot to survive this type of hook-up, took him some twelve months to walk again though.

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 02:06:33 UTC
Charlotte

I thought I would give my experience and background with releases. First I have only been flying HG's for 4 years and mountain launches are the larger part of my flights. This year I decided to do a lot of comps, sport class, using a U2. I have always used a Lookout release.

The one without the lever that you can blow with both hands on the control bar or the one with the lever mounted within easy reach that works under tension?

In Florida for the comps I never needed a relight and never got out of whack on tow.

Must be using...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

...a standard aerotow weak link.

I was not at Quest for Jeff's accident...

Suicide.

...but it started a conversation with another comp pilot and myself about releases.

- You can't name him? *

- What about...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

...the few people actually working on things? Undoubtedly at Quest where they've been perfecting aerotowing for over twenty years. Do you know of any conversations they were having after the second pro toad splattering on their runway in a bit over three years?

We decided to get Russian mouth releases and do some testing.

What about Quest's version? What was it you didn't like about that one? Too perfected for your liking?

We used a scooter tow and made ten launches between us releasing anywhere from still in the cart up to 20-30 feet above the cart (this was also my first pro tow setup). No issues.

Can you imagine any situations in which there WOULD be issues? You know, like when you're landing at the Quest Happy Acres putting green but executing as if it were a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

I went to Big Spring with this info. The practice day I used the mouth release with pro tow and all went well but it was late in the day and winds were relatively light.

Ain't it great how well pro towing works under those conditions.

I had no issues with the mouth release.

Really? So no more than two or three teeth pulled out?

The first day of comp (Sunday) and 2nd day of comp were supposed to be windy and launch was in the heat of the day, so I decided to go with what I was more familiar with, which was the Lookout release.

Really?

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
The Oz Report hang gliding news - Big Spring Nationals Rules

2016 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Appropriate aerotow bridles

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:

http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow

and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows



Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

Neither of those releases was appropriate and permitted under the comp rules.

Sunday was brutal, I had four tows releasing at 250', 450' and 900' before making it to 1800' before getting sideways...

Good thing you weren't flying three point. You have so much better control authority pro toad. Of course ya gotta be a pro to do it but once you've mastered it it's all Bob's your uncle.

...but I climbed to 11,200 and on my way. Monday, I only needed one tow. Our third day of comps, after much analysis, I decided to go back to the mouth release and pro tow.

Good thing you did much analysis and reached the conclusion that there'd be no fuckin' way running the thrust line to way the hell below your centers of mass and drag and eliminating the top half of your glider's certified speed range could possibly present any problems.

I needed three tows. The first got me to 2000' and wave off, but no lift so landed.

But it was really safe. So you should seriously consider never flying in lifting conditions.

The next tow was weak link break...

Toldyaso.

...as I lifted out of cart, no issue.

Fuck no. Pro toad and a Rooney Link. Zack Marzec configuration.

The last tow...

...after replacing the Rooney Link that had just blown as I lifted out of the cart with...

21-04709
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3885/14422571978_d47ec5c921_o.png


...another one...

...was a rodeo. The air was wild, and I fought up to about 1300' at which point I thought I would hang on until things went sideways, which it did.

Much more sporting than using a two point bridle comparable to what was on your tug...

http://www.zenadsl2877.zen.co.uk/mf-aerotow/8-GermanDF-AWier.jpg


...and just getting...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

In three point towing, 1/2 the energy is transmitted to the glider, 1/2 to you. In pro towing, you're it.
...
Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him.

...drug around by your nose.

That last tow would have been hard "for me" to use the barrel release because I was going from left corner of the control frame to the right corner.

Just spend more time working on your easy reaching skills. Or, better yet, take the short clinic Steve Wendt runs to qualify his students.

Pulled...

...two inches back...

...into my knees, then pushed out. Once I got to 1300' and got past 60 degree bank and still going, the mouth release worked instantly. I climbed out and took off.

I have always liked the technical writings of Ryan...

Any other fiction writers you'd like to mention? Brad Barkley maybe?

...but I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag on the comment about letting the glider get away from you on tow (I paraphrased).

Any comment on:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 20:05:16 UTC

I can (and have) run across a field and steer the glider without ever touching the DT's by simply changing the direction I run. At the beach (or South Side) I like to practice kiting my wing with no hands, and just moving my hips (and stepping if necessary) left/right.

Pulling the hang loop to the right is pulling the hang loop to the right- glider don't care if you're dangling beneath it or still touching the ground. As long as your mains are tight, you can weight shift it!

I saw well known comp pilots getting tossed around and coming off tow.

Ryan's model only works in sled conditions.

There was no way to know when a thermal was going to get you that far out of whack. We were all working our butts off to stay behind the tug.

Take your real world stuff and shove it up your butts.

My "opinion" was that I felt the most safe with the mouth release and pro tow. I had more control of the glider...

So any thoughts on Zack Marzec? Or, despite the fact that his idiot tug driver blurted out a detailed and accurate second by second description of what happened before considering the ramifications, will his whip inconvenience and fatal tumble always be the unfathomable mystery it remains today?

...and not having to release one ounce of pressure from the base bar was comforting.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.

The Lookout release would be my next choice...

Obviously the Street Release wouldn't be a consideration because it's undergone extensive load and actuation effort testing with the results published and available at the website.

...and third...

Read last.

...would be the barrel release.

What? No mention of the hook knife? The razor-sharp cutting tool you can use to slash through your lines in an instant?

Everyone that I talked to that pro towed all said the same thing. "It's not that hard to get the barrel release. One hand is always near a release". That is true when things are going good, but the question to answer is when things are going sideways, would you want to release a hand?

So tell me how everyone you talked to who pro toad wasn't a total fucking dickhead in desperate need of a rating revocation.

peace out,

Fuck that.

Bruno

2016/08/24 15:31:15 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Janica Lee

---
Edit - 2016/09/29 12:20:00 UTC

* John Maloney.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Luke Waters - 2016/08/24 02:19:00 UTC

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 02:06:33 UTC

I have always liked the technical writings of Ryan but I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag on the comment about letting the glider get away from you on tow (I paraphrased). I saw well known comp pilots getting tossed around and coming off tow. There was no way to know when a thermal was going to get you that far out of whack. We were all working our butts off to stay behind the tug.

There are plenty of "well known comp pilots" who are not that great at aero towing.

- Then isn't that just another way of saying that u$hPa AT instructors who sign off ratings and meet heads who are supposed to set and enforce safety standards for comps really suck at their jobs?

- Bull fucking shit.

-- Towed hang gliders are roll unstable and when the air's the least bit bumpy and require almost constant mini-corrections the keep them pointed at the tug.

-- Pro toad hang gliders are even more of a bitch to keep under control.

-- AT students don't get towed in thermal conditions.

Comp venues and times of year and task times of day are scheduled for the strongest / most dangerous thermal activity possible, all comp pilots fly one point and if they don't have the basic 2.0 up/down/left/right skills to stay behind a tug they're never gonna make it to much more than a couple hundred feet. And if PLENTY of "well known comp pilots" are not that great at aerotowing you should have no problem whatsoever referring us to supporting video evidence.

There are three types of towing crashes:

- Students put in over their heads on crap equipment and/or with shit drivers - Nancy Tachibana.

- Solid 2.0 skills flyers when something out of the ordinary happens on crap equipment and/or with shit drivers - Holly Korzilius, John Claytor, Jeff Bohl.

- Total fringe activity - Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead.

Within the second category there is no correlation between "skill" or experience level and crashing because a pro toad Zack Marzec can't stuff a bar any more quickly and effectively than a pro toad Tomas Banevicius or Nancy Tachibana.

NMERider - 2016/08/24 03:34:37 UTC

IMHO - Ryan is a big advocate of not flying

Totally nailed it, Jonathan. All of Ryan's technical explanations, emergency procedures, landing techniques, weight shift control theories work best if one doesn't actually fly.

...or...

Oh. There's more to the sentence.

...waiting out the weather if the conditions are as rowdy as you describe and I fully respect his philosophy.

FUCK YEAH!!! Whenever I'm heading to the flight line around noon and start seeing cumies popping and vultures going up I say "Fuck this!", head to the tie-down area, and hang out until the sun's nice and low and I can get a really safe tow and a great opportunity to perfect my flare timing.

Another way of expressing this might be - If the weather is so turbulent that you cannot stay ahead of the glider then don't launch.

Yeah. I'd really like to see an end to this Zapata World Record Encampment bullshit. Either hold it in December or move it to Nova Scotia. Or better yet... Both of the above.

I think you have done a better of job of describing why comps can be needlessly dangerous than anything else.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

1. Wind speed light to moderate.
2. Wind steady.
3. Wind direction steady.

Neither of those fatalities had shit to do with dangerous conditions. Both of them were the consequences of going up on dangerously and illegally decertified gliders on cheap total shit equipment. Zack would have definitely and Jeff would have probably been just fine even flying cheap total shit two point equipment. I'd have been totally fucking bulletproof in both situations on my own extremely short track record equipment.

IMHO - Pilots will take risks during comps that they might never take under normal flying circumstances.

Cite one single casualty from the entire history of pilot connected towing that was a consequence of conditions. You can even include totally moronic shit like trying to launch John Claytor in a crosswind gale on in improvised runway. He could've aborted that lunacy with a Kaluzhin release, walked away, and put his glider back in the bag.

But if it really was so difficult to tow safely, why wasn't the day called?

If it's really so difficult to tow safely then why do total shits like Davis permit - let alone mandate - that people fly with one point easily reachable crap like:

05-02210
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7788/27174354752_e2682758f6_o.png

06-02334
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7342/27174354132_c7a62677c4_o.png

09-03110
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7498/27174352572_20d38b525e_o.png


The total morons who fly it very richly deserve anything and everything that happens to them and I have way less than ZERO sympathy for them.

In his seminal safety narrative, Mike Meier talks about the Go/No-Go decision.

You mean the Mike Meier who produces gliders that have not been designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed and sells them by the ton to Florida and Texas?

Well that's an important decision that can just as easily spare you as it can end you.

Yeah, let's do everything we can to get as many people as possible to not fly hang gliders - 'specially...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...in primo soaring conditions. Let's get NAA Safety Awards to Sunny Venesky and Adam Elchin for managing Highland Aerosports into collapse and thus really effectively dealing with the dangers associated with aerotowing in the Mid Atlantic region. And an Honorable Mention for Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Some situations do dictate Go or suffer while others dictate No-Go or suffer. I won't belabor the point but a lot of pilots will not expose themselves to the kind of launch conditions you describe even if they did commit a great deal of time and money to a comp and forfeit a day in the process.

Total rubbish. He says:

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 02:06:33 UTC

Sunday was brutal, I had four tows releasing at 250', 450' and 900' before making it to 1800' before getting sideways, but I climbed to 11,200 and on my way.

Big fuckin' deal. Towing pilot only he's not able to maintain the tow AT ALTITUDE where the air can move VERTICALLY. ZERO reports of aborted or blown launches, tug drivers fixing whatever was going on back there by giving gliders the rope, bonked landings. Reports of gliders being locked out low in the kill zone by thermal turbulence or blasts are so rare as to be statistically nonexistent.

You're a whole helluva lot more likely to get locked launching off a mountainside where the thermals have had a thousand feet to build up momentum and are blasting through every few minutes but that's why people have and watch wind indicators and pick cycles. And you won't hear Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight admonishing anyone for flying in those environments.

Also... Did you catch the only reference to the focal point of our safe towing system...

The next tow was weak link break as I lifted out of cart, no issue.

...increase the safety of the towing operation? Doesn't really seem to meet with our expectation of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence, does it? Probably wasn't tied properly to break consistently.

I am very glad to get your input into the mouth release/ Pro Tow combination.

Why do they call it "Pro Tow", Jonathan?

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2011/11

Pilots should also realize that the cone of safety is much smaller when pro-towing than when using a normal 3-point aerotow bridle with an upper tow point, and that lockouts occur much quicker when pro-towing. For these reasons, we discourage pro-towing here at Cloud 9. It is a safety risk that some top comp pilots may wish to take for a miniscule amount of better high speed glide performance, but otherwise is a risk that just isn't worth taking for the vast majority of other pilots who aerotow.

Is it as safe as some Rube Goldberg muppet rig? And, if not, how come it's never discussed as a safety issue in Davisworld aviation?

I don't know if and when I will ever tow again...

Then maybe you should be a bit more circumspect when commenting on towing issues. Pretty much all hang glider people are total morons but even in this culture people wouldn't be queuing up in quarter mile long parallel launch lines if aerotow launching in good soaring conditions were as lethal as people who don't aerotow always say it is.

...but please keep us all informed of how this works out over time.

- Or we could just get some input from people like Aleksey who've been using them since the beginning of time.

- Also let us know how driving sober at reasonable speeds while wearing a seatbelt with your brakes in good order is working out for you so we get some valuable data on which to base our decisions.

Cheers, Jonathan

Davis Straub - 2016/08/24 04:18:41 UTC

I towed on all the days that Bruno towed on and likely one more. I had one tow each day. I found the conditions to be comfortable, if a bit challenging on the first two days. I have aerotowed at Big Spring for 15 years and love aerotowing there.

And I'll bet you were very happy with your easily stowed Mini Barrel release and whatever weak link you're now happy with.

We have an enviable record for safety at Big Spring.

Yeah, if nobody gets killed at that particular venue that means you're doing everything right.

I have towed there in 25 mph south winds (22 mph at Quest Air this year).

We didn't tow on the last day as we had 16 mph wind gusting to 22 mph from the north east. Not a great direction.

Why didn't you just tow until somebody broke his neck and then have the Safety Committee call the day the way you did at the 2014 ECC?

We know when it is safe to tow and how to do it safely.

- I guess "WE" no longer includes Zack Marzec, John Claytor, Jeff Bohl.
- If you know how to do it safely then:
-- what's the point in experimenting with Kaluzhin releases?
-- why:
--- is the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality still an unfathomable mystery for which no fix is currently possible?
--- won't you tell us what you're using for weak links and what they're supposed to do for us?

I was quite happy with my barrel release.

- Toldyaso.

- So do tell us why you are no longer happy with YOUR barrel release

- Why? Does it fit nicely over your erect penis and prove very enjoyable with the application of a little Vaseline?

- I'm quite happy with you using your barrel release...




...TOO - motherfucker.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Jim Gaar - 2016/08/24 12:36:00 UTC

I think the key to Ryan's statement and one that rolls with what Jonathan states about conditions is this: We as pilots MUST learn to understand when it's time to get off tow, no matter what type of release! It's that simple. If conditions warrant, set your personal level of releasing at a safer point. IF you have to hang on to the corners of the control frame to stay behind the tug it may be time for MORE practice without the pressure of a comp. If a pilot insists on flying in rowdy conditions with less experience, they better have a release that will work for their experience level, or lack there of...

Yeah, if they're really crappy pilots, like Nancy Tachibana, they should use state-of-the-art equipment from Mission Soaring Center. But if they're pros, like Jeff Bohl, they're good with the stuff that Quest has been perfecting for a couple dozen years.

Know when to fly (first).
Know (or learn on the ground) when to release!

Wow, asshole! That was really profound and should help prolong the life of hang gliding for at least another nanosecond or two. Keep up the great work.

P.S...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

What do you think about these new weak links that everybody's using and absolutely no one's breathing a word about after any lockout fatalities?

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 13:59:12 UTC

It's all about knowledge and personal responsibility.

Really? When you've got total douchebag meet heads and tug drivers dictating what equipment gliders will and won't be using and a Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector illegally determining ultimate allowable towline tension... then HOW?

As an Airline pilot do you fly in conditions that you might not fly in if you are a GA pilot?

As an airline pilot do you take off with mission critical cheap bent pin junk known beyond any shadow of a doubt to have killed multiple planes in the past because some sleazy Industry cocksucker has ordered you to because it has an extremely long track record and he sells it?

Yep, been there done that. Airlines have schedules, GA don't.

Airlines also don't like to have their planes, pilots, passengers splattered all over shopping malls so they make decisions not to fly them when gust fronts are blasting through.

Aviation 101 is that shit happens that is unexpected.

Bullshit. Aviation 101 is to know exactly what all the shit that can happen is, eliminate the possibility of whatever shit you can from happening, and gear and train for the rest. Nobody's inventing any new ways to crash gliders. (Although Kelly Harrison deserves recognition for his world record accomplishment in combining the tried and true stuff.)

That is what I was getting at about Ryan's statement.

What's your point? Who's gotten crashed because conditions were beyond what could've been easily handled with a certified glider and Hang 2.0 skills?

When I finished on the first day of comp at Big Spring, Mick came up and said to me that every time he towed me we got hit with big air. It was just my luck of the draw.

And:

- The fact that he got hit by the big air means that you got several seconds of heads up time to gear for what was coming. Pull in, adjust your position, abort. (And note that there's not on single record of anybody ever aborting a tow after watching a tug get violently kicked and before getting into the air that did it.)

- You and your glider came out smelling like roses because big air virtually never hits down in the kill zone. You didn't even break one of your pansy Rooney Links in any of the big air events. You released and relit.

On the second day of comp I only needed one tow, yet a few others needed relights.

And not one report of a slightly bowed downtube or skinned knee because none of this violent air shit is happening at takeoff or landing where shit matters. That what's happening to the gliders - pro toad - at altitude is an indication of dangerous flying conditions is 100.00 percent total BULLSHIT.

I felt personally responsible for my decisions to tow and had a lower threshold for how quickly I would get off tow.

With the possible exception of the 250 footer you could've waited until your (or the tug's piece o' shit) weak link broke and it wouldn't have mattered.

With the Lookout release, I realized that I would have to release slight pressure on base bar so that factored in as well.

Any thoughts on the fact that the motherfuckers openly state right on their website advertisement that...

18-10115
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8281/29660706145_8aec1431f6_o.png

19-10127
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8407/29660704645_411aec4ae1_o.png

20-10202
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8002/29660703075_9ff03a21a9_o.png

21-10206
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8223/29660701775_d8714f050d_o.png

22-10211
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8414/29660700435_60e7a82e47_o.png

23-10215
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8168/29036020063_02116a2fdd_o.png

24-10221
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8536/29660697885_269cb53671_o.png

25-10223
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8372/29549603522_ae88a055f4_o.png

27-10225
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8235/29549600192_3cde241224_o.png


...even Version 3.0 won't work under load?

On the last day using the mouth release I felt more confident that I could take out some of the question of how soon to release because I didn't have to factor in lifting some pressure with my left hand to get off tow.

- Oh. So you're saying it's important to maintain full control of the glider at all times - including/especially while effecting a release. Doesn't that make Ryan totally full of shit?

Hell, even one iteration of Ryan makes another totally full of shit:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

The situation is so critical that you can't afford to relinquish so much as an ounce of control during the nanosecond it takes to effect the easy reach to your Industry Standard release. But you're OK using all your ounces of control doing a low altitude wingover. How much more full of shit is it possible for one person to be?

- Where is it carved in granite that you can't maintain full requisite back pressure while sliding a hand inboard?

1-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

2-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

3-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


Is that more of a trick than perfecting your flare timing?

I apologize to Ryan for being a little crass by throwing the "bullshit flag".

Fuck you then. Ryan's NOTHING BUT bullshit and he really needs to be dealt with at every opportunity.

I know his intentions are always safety.

The safety of his social position and the sleaze industry upon which it depends.

And I do digest what he says.

As for the OP...

Steve Corbin - in case anybody's forgotten.

I have flown the smallest two seat aircraft up to 150 seat airline jets, made thousands of skydives starting with PC...

ParaCommander? I made a few jumps on that canopy in the early Seventies.

...and ending with ramair canopies. There is something about the simplicity of weight shift that is appealing to me.

Yeah. I really like the way you can weight shift control your wing by running under a high wing on a foot launch without even using your hands. You just can't beat that kind of simplicity.

If you want better roll, yaw, pitch control, that would be a sailplane. you can buy a Schweitzer 1-26 for the cost of a T2. You don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Oh please. I was so looking forward to Steve and friends getting a revolutionary new hang glider into the air that will allow the pilot to safely resist a lockout while making the easy reach to his Industry Standard release.

Raymond Caux - 2016/08/24 15:53:50 UTC
Göteborg

AIRTHUG is right to say it's the pilot's responsibility to adapt to the equipment...

Yeah, whatever lunatic crap Quallaby, Lockout, Mission feed us and designate as towing equipment it's our responsibility to adapt to it. And if we don't Mitch Shipley and Tim Herr will shred all the evidence of what actually happened and we'll have gotten what we deserved for executing poor judgment and committing pilot error.

...and conditions, but I think dayhead suggested we ask too much to the pilot.

And the only way we can do any better is to sit around with our thumbs up our asses while somebody picks up the ball and reinvents the hang glider such that we will have better roll control authority.

The trap with safety and incidents ( http://www.willswing.com/why-cant-we-get-a-handle-on-this-safety-thing/ )....

...is they forgive most of the time and we become complacent.

You mean like continuing to go up on the same shit that killed Zack Marzec, Nancy Tachibana, Jeff Bohl and hope for better results?

As we can't change human nature, we must accept our assessments are suboptimal, and in desparate situations, only a really good handling (like aerobatics planes for example) can save the bacon.

Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:26:54 UTC

I thought that I had made it clear that I want weaklinks and I want weaklinks to break to save the pilot's bacon.

Davis's magic fishing line. C'mon, let's start hearing some discussion about the focal point of a safe towing system.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34646
Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/24 16:48:54 UTC

I don't know why I keep coming back...

Same reason your boyfriend used to...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

...before we finally, conclusively, unambiguously gutted the little shit. You incompetent assholes just love to present yourselves as bottomless fonts of wisdom eternally striving in vain to save all us clueless fuckin' muppets from ourselves - and the corrupting influences of T** at K*** S****** and others from Tad's Hole In The Ground.

...but I'm glad I did this time- as this is a great comment to respond to (opens much needed clarification of perspective)

Oh good. I can hardly wait. I think if we muppets just get three or four more of your much needed clarifications of perspective we'll all stand reasonable chances of survival in this sport. (THANK GOD for Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight and his perpetual willingness to clarify perspectives. Can't imagine where we'd be and end up otherwise.)

Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 02:06:33 UTC

I have always liked the technical writings of Ryan but I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag on the comment about letting the glider get away from you on tow (I paraphrased). I saw well known comp pilots getting tossed around and coming off tow. There was no way to know when a thermal was going to get you that far out of whack. We were all working our butts off to stay behind the tug.

Bruno,

Don't apologize for throwing the bullshit flag! I pull no punches when I do it...

You don't pull any punches when you're slinging bullshit either. And you used to be able to get away with it really easy 'cause you had Jack's protection.

...as I've found being direct and to-the-point is crucial to clarity.

Clarifying total bullshit. Neat trick.

And, since I'm not inhibited about...

...coming back to run my mouth on The Jack Show after having been definitively exposed as a liar and incompetent fraud and humiliated beyond all description.

...throwing that flag around- I expect, and welcome, it right back... AS LONG AS YOU'RE PREPARED TO BACK IT UP

But if you back it up TOO well Jack...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...will ban you as an obnoxious know-it-all.

Responding the quote above:
I too have seen well known comp pilots getting tossed around and coming off tow.

Crappy aerotowers. Couldn't POSSIBLY be 'cause Mother Nature has the power to overwhelm the control authority of pro toads.

Following the practice of observation>inference...

At which you're so stunningly thorough and brilliant...

...we both OBSERVED the same thing. But the inference drawn from it- how we interpret what we observe- is very different.

Your interpretation is carefully tailored to further enhance your glory. Notice the way these Voight, Rooney, Trisa, Pagen, Robertson types never seem to be able to mentor any pilots to be able to team up with them in discussions, take the helm for periods, start gearing up to take over when they're no longer able to go on? Pretty glaring when one realizes and considers this. Compare/Contrast with Kite Strings.

You say "there was no way to know when a thermal was going to get you that far out of whack."

It's physically impossible to get too far out of whack on tow. Your weak link will break long before that happens. Just ask Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden. (Everybody remember what a weak link is? Focal point of a safe towing system? Remember the days when every time there was a lockout fatality it was because some moron had either deliberately used a Tad-O-Link or accidentally doubled an Infallible Weak Link?

Keep watching in this Post Marzec Era as weak link strength and Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Releases NEVER get mentioned - 'specially by the total fucking 130 pound Greenspot assholes like Davis, Voight, Rooney, Marc Fink, Brad Gryder, Kinsley Sykes, Henry Martin who were the shrillest in their advocacies and attacks on T** at K*** S******. And by u$hPa 2015 Instructor of the Year Award winner Bart Weghorst who doesn’t give a shit about breaking strength anymore, really care what the numbers are. Just wants his weaklink to break every once in a while.

I feel this is a very narrow sighted perspective, and please let me elaborate on that: Where a thermal is or when it may strike us (or we fly into it) can be very hard to predict- although not impossible I will add.

Bull fucking shit.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

If that can happen to the Sainted author of the u$hPa Official Towing Manual that can happen to ANYBODY. I've been brutally locked out high on tow where it didn't matter and soaring the dunes where I damn near got killed. The warning signal you get is being rolled seventy degrees from level when you were minding your own business and totally helpless to do shit about it until after you're through what Mother Nature has thrown at you - IF you've got adequate altitude/clearance.

BUT- assessing conditions to determine how many thermals, and how strong, and how "edgy" they will be... that is something any "well known comp pilot" should be able to do in their sleep. We do this every time we fly, right?

Right. Apparently without your help - amazingly enough.

For most flying, we call it determining if it's soarable, or how "good" it will be. But for launching- FOOT or TOW launching- measuring how "good" the soaring conditions are is also a direct measure of how much risk is involved.

No.

- There is very little threat from powerful thermals when coming off a runway. And with adequate wind indicators and attention to them we can be bulletproof.

- In the mountains ALL launches have streamers, grass, weeds, branches and anybody with half a brain or better can easily pick safe cycles. And once you're clear a bit you're bulletproof.

Calm, stable conditions are considered "reliable". A foot launch or tow launch, for a pilot of even pretty mediocre skill, in early morning or late evening sled ride conditions... the chances of getting hit with a surprise or challenge is very very very low.

Nonexistent. There are ZERO relevant citable incidents.

But a foot launch or tow launch, into mid-day excellent soaring conditions, is what I like to call "predictably unpredictable".

Rubbish. See above. This is NOT how we're killing reasonably competent flyers.

Getting back to what you said- "There was no way to know..." - I could disagree on that even, but I won't...

Good. See above.

...but I'll say concretely that we, as the pilot...

...have some really serious problems with simple grade school level grammar and logic.

...choosing to launch in said conditions, should absolutely know how high the POTENTIAL is for "getting tossed around and coming off tow."

This only happens at altitude. I wouldn't bother getting in the launch line if I didn't think there was a fairly good chance of getting locked out before getting to normal release altitude. Getting locked out at a thousand feet or so means it's probably gonna be brain dead easy to get to cloudbase.

Maybe it happens, maybe not... but risk = potential for it to happen.

Who gives a flying fuck? It's not a safety issue. It's part of the game and we have zero problem dealing with it - even without you posting your brains out on The Jack Show.

Rolling a single die, it's 1:6 you roll a 3. If it comes up as a 4, it was still 1:6 for the 3, it just didn't hit. Mike Meier has written and spoken extensively about the human mental trap of negative reinforcement... that is, it didn't come up 3 under these circumstances this time, so it won't next time too. Since it's 5:6 that it wont come up as a 3... this cycle will often get reinforced many times. But eventually, it's "...and then out of nowhere!". Not so much...

It's just crap that anybody who has any business flying knows anyway.

When I got locked out at the South Bowl at Jockey's Ridge on 1984/07/05 John Harris was watching from the tower back at the shop (about a half mile away). Said he'd never seen anything like it. And I sure as hell had never experienced anything like it. (Never did again either in free flight.) There'd been changes in the dune shape and position and in the upwind vegetation (grown up) such that in the afternoon southwest convection wind there was a big sheltered area at the bottom of the bowl in which the sand would superheat for a long time (think solar furnace) and on this occasion it broke off like an A-bomb.

I realized how lucky I'd been to come out of that one smelling like a rose and told myself that I could/would never fly the South Bowl in similar conditions again - even if the chance of getting hit like that again was just one in a thousand. (The thought now occurs to me that in towing you're through the kill zone in thirty seconds whereas while soaring at Jockey's Ridge you're in the kill zone all fuckin' afternoon.)

Anybody who goes back up after experiencing, seeing, being advised of something like that is Darwin material.

BACK THE THE THREAD TOPIC- your last line I quoted above says it all, IMHO:

We were all working our butts off to stay behind the tug.

One could read that as flex wing hang gliders have lackluster handling, requiring great skill...

Up/Down/Left/Right. Describe this "SKILL" to me. Show me the videos of "SKILLFUL" aerotowing.

...and work to maneuver them along a precise course or heading (IE follow the tow plane, which no doubt has more pitch, roll, yaw authority than the hang glider does).

- YES. So we're apparently in agreement that more complex and expensive engineering tends to translate to aircraft with better CONTROL performance - such that the more complex and expensive aircraft will be able to handle conditions and situations that will kill the other - even with the thrust line through the centers of mass and drag and BOTH hands on the control bar.

- Precise my ass. You stay in position as best you can and hope nothing sneaks in between you and the tug. And note the first part of Bill Bryden's quote about Dennis Pagen's experience. He was CORRECTING for misalignment when he got hit. Turkey Vultures get kicked around in turbulent air. This "PRECISION CONTROL" of Boychick's is total fiction in any conditions worth going up in.

One could also read that as, we were all pushing the limits of our equipment and skill limitations...

Which, given our appropriate bridles with their long track records, is incredibly easy to do.

...and we were operating with a narrower margin of safety than ideal.

You want an ideal safety margin then stay in the shade at the picnic tables.

Ideal safety margin being subjective and personal to each of us of course...although I don't think anyone would disagree having to work that hard just to stay on tow isn't ideal

You don't seem to be able to understand the difference between getting blown off / having to abort a tow at altitude and instant death. Guys who run with footballs occasionally get knocked down or even lose their footing and fall before they make it across the goal line. That doesn't mean they're incompetent morons risking instant death on every play. (Although, yeah, most of them are slowly getting their brains turned to mush.)

ANSWERING THE THREAD SUBJECT'S QUESTION:
I personally- and this is just my own assessment and I'm not ramming it down anyone's throat as "fact"-

Like being able to run across a field weight shift controlling a hang glider without using your hands.

...flex wing hang gliders have perfectly adequate handling characteristics...

Two hands on the control bar or just one. Doesn't really matter.

...as long as we respect the limitations inherent in the aircraft.

What the fuck are you talking about? The limitations inherent in our aircraft mean that we can get our asses kicked in strong thermal air and knocked way the fuck off heading in free flight or locked out and blown off tow.

Sailplanes, hang gliders, paragliders... 747's... C-130's... helicopters... all aircraft have limitations... and (this is the part I absolutely *DO* intend to beat you all over the head with as concrete fact! LOL) IT IS THE DUTY OF THE PILOT TO OPERATE WITHIN THESE LIMITATIONS.

We do, asshole.

Regarding the discussion of lock-outs... they are simply a loss of control, or a failure to control... *AND* that is followed by a failure to recognize the previous problem, until it snowballs into a bigger, more serious, potentially deadly problem...

- Skydiving involves a loss of control. Once you let go of the plane you're not gonna be regaining your starting altitude. So the fuck what?

- Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Guess what Just occurred to me! This simple loss of or failure to control that's a potentially deadly problem at any altitude is a rock-solid lifesaving procedure when it's the PILOT - rather than Mother Nature - inducing it at any altitude in order to actuate his Voight/Rooney instant hands free release. Explain that one, little cocksucker.

And I can't help but play a little whack-a-mole with Davis here... throwing my own bullshit flag his way...
An experienced comp pilot died at Big Spring.

Quest. As Bruno makes perfectly clear in the post from which you're quoting - you fucking moron.

He states he is very happy with their safety record.

Davis is very happy with so many things at any given moment. At one moment he's very happy with a weak link that blows six times in a row in light morning conditions, at another he's very happy with the one that Jeff Bohl was using as a pitch and lockout protector to save his bacon that holds until deep into a fatal lockout. Davis is one of the most very happy and easily pleased people I know.

About the accident, Davis wrote something like "He died launching into good conditions". Good conditions for launching... or good conditions for soaring?

The "conditions" were cross, fairly light, smooth, short runway, underpowered tug needing to make hard right to clear the trees. Probably sucked for soaring. The conditions which ended his ability to control the tow and left his fate entirely in the hands of his appropriate weak link and Pilot In Command, neither of which increased the safety of the towing operation to the point at which the passenger could survive, were an easy reach to an unsecured dangling camera and an appropriate bridle - as defined by the meet heads who sell appropriate bridles to the suspecting public. And anybody who uses crap like that is a total fucking moron - so you can add that to the description of the relevant lethal conditions.

I think I have shown how these two things are not synonymous whatsoever.

Actually you've shown the opposite - if anything - you fuckin' little dickhead. The days upon which we were all working our butts off to stay behind the tug were 2016/08/07 and 11 - seven weeks after and twelve hundred miles to the WNW of the 2016/05/21 Jeff Bohl fatal Quest clusterfuck. That's 57 percent of the way to the other edge of the continent, people of varying ages. (North America, Ryan. Look it up on Wikipedia.) Of that pecker measuring contest in which Jeff was killed Bruno says:

In Florida for the comps I never needed a relight and never got out of whack on tow.

and there are no reports of anyone having to work his butt off to stay behind the tug other than the pro toad who made the easy reach to secure his camera right after takeoff and well below treetop level and shortly before the wimp 582 Dragonfly - with the fuckin' douchebag driver who hasn't identified himself, been identified by any of the witnesses who know goddam well who he is, offered a single syllable's worth of input on any of the issues related to the instant death of his passenger - made a hard right ninety.

Any readers out there stupid enough to think that that asshole isn't scared shitless? Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...



...having loudly proclaimed that he can fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope, volumes of discussion about how his muppet passenger died solely because of his deplorable decision to try to salvage an obviously lethal situation because he didn't want the inconvenience of aborting and relighting, knowing goddam well that his passenger would've come out smelling like a rose if only he'd:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg


as soon as things had obviously started going south? I predict that we're never again gonna here comments from these Dragonfly dickheads or their pet cocksuckers about how they can fix whatever's going on back there by squeezing their dump levers 'cause that's gonna bring a lot of glaring daylight on the fact that this asshole only did the squeeze the instant after the deadly Tad-O-Link had increase the safety of the towing operation and only because his own plane started becoming threatened.

P.S. Note that this iconic photo of Casey Cox's kid illustrating how brain dead easy it is for the DRAGONFLY to fix whatever's going no back there while maintaining full uncompromised control of the front end aircraft disappeared from Quest's Facebook page in moderately short order and good freakin' luck finding a reasonable facsimile anywhere on the Web. These Industry slimeballs don't want the public noting too much the contrast between what Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey DESIGNED for the safety of the aircraft on HIS end of the rope and the cheap deadly crap he threw back to the glider end. The Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, let's all remember, who could also have saved the life of a Norwegian national champion in similar circumstances...

http://ozreport.com/9.127
Robin's accident

Davis Straub - 2005/06/14

Once the glider bounces off the ground, Robin is never able to get the glider lined up correctly behind Bobby Bailey and drifted continually to the left, locking out and crashing from a low altitude. If Bobby had released Robin at any time before the last two or three seconds he would likely not have crashed, at least not from a lockout.

...locking out, knows there are serious problems, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey total shit releases, plenty of time...

I am also not saying he, unfortunately, was the one who failed to recognize the risk- potential to be popped off course (tow)-

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.

This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda.

That's the best information we're ever gonna get on what popped him off course (tow) - motherfucker. Any comment?

...and wasn't mentally prepared for a rapid release...

...i.e. repeating the mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand, having the pitch becoming twice far to great far too fast. Ya really GOTTA be MENTALLY prepared for a rapid release in circumstances like these. Having appropriate bridles just isn't gonna do anything for ya if you're not mentally prepared to let go of the bar with one hand and use them.

...well before things escalated (IE he tried to stay on and save it).

This little shit has REALLY set himself up to be even more massively disemboweled than he was after telling us how he could weight shift control the glider no hands by running towards the high wing. Somebody please crucify him.

I tried searching old Oz Reports for exactly how Davis worded the "launching into good conditions" thing... but can't seem to find that posting.

Yeah, it was pretty obscure. Who'da thunk to look for it under "Oregon flying on the edge"? I'd have totally missed it if I hadn't been tipped off. And you might not have set yourself up as unbelievably beautifully as you did otherwise.

While searching, I did however find a different post written by Davis, about a day at Big Spring (a totally different year)

And make sure not to give us the link or even bother telling us WHAT year.

Launching first on a windy day is not a great idea. It means that you are likely to be on your own as there will be little chance to meet up with other pilots inside the start circle. I was, of course, aware of that, but my feelings were insistent that I get going. I do not like waiting in line to get towed up. Waiting in line means being too hot for too long a time. I dislike being cold more than I dislike being hot so perhaps I put on more clothes than is normal, so when on the ground and suited up I'm anxious to get up into the air where it is cooler.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Getting pilots into the air quickly is also safer as it reduces the stress that pilots feel on the ground and keeps them focused on their job which is to launch safely and without hassling the ground crew or themselves. When we look at safety we have to look at the whole system, not just one component of that system. One pilot may feel that one component is unsafe from his point of view and desire a different approach, but accommodating one pilot can reduce the overall safety of the system.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

I have a lot of anxiety about towing in rowdy conditions and I wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible. I don't want to wait around on the ground feeling these feelings of anxiety. I pulled the pin after ninety seconds on tow even though I was only at 1,400' AGL because I was happy to get off tow, and there was lift around (or so I think).

Gawd how the search function SUCKS on Davis's crappy little forum. Anybody got any ideas on how to find the link?

I added the bold to the line of most interest, but wanted to include a little more context than just the one line...
And I'll add that conditions are dynamic; they are always evolving. If it was rowdy enough he elected to get off tow after 90 seconds, AND HE WAS THE FIRST TOW... what did the remaining flock tow through?

As long as they're MENTALLY PREPARED for a rapid release...

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
12-22509

...what's it really matter?

It is not amazing how poor the control of flex wing hang gliders is compared to other aircraft types and genres... it is unfortunately amazing how infrequently entering situations that exceed these limits actually bites one of us catastrophically.

And what I find amazingly amazing is that the flex wing hang glider is the only aircraft in which safety and control authority is INcreased by dropping the thrust line way the fuck below the centers of mass...

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png


...and drag and there's absolutely no penalty whatsoever for a total surrender of pilot control input...

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png


...in any lethal emergency situation just as long as the pilot - or, as Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

2-1206
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5638/29915514612_09cd3bd146_o.png


...refers to him, the passenger - is MENTALLY PREPARED for the total surrender of the pilot/passenger control input.

This thread- that blames the equipment- really misses the mark.

And does everybody remember the years of rants from the other Voight-Rooney twin on how critically important it is to use ONLY equipment perfected and instilled with incredibly long track records at the instants of invention by Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey?

And...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof. Numerous designs have evolved over the years--some very good and some not so good. Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past 5 years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers. Listed below are various types of releases available with their attributes and applications.

Provided in Appendix III is a performance test specification for towline releases. This is not presented to give you guidelines for making your own, but rather to make you aware of the requirements of a good release in order to select and purchase good equipment (See Appendix IV).

See how the Industry conversation has shifted? The better part of two decades ago the fact that you were reading the official u$hPa towing manual was indisputable proof that you were too fucking stupid to be able to design and build anything up to the standards of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's idiot bent pin piece o' crap. Now, rather suddenly, you can go up pro toad with nothing but a hook knife and you'll be just as safe as you would using a Koch, Kaluzhin, Street, Rube Goldberg job from T** at K*** S******.

These sons of BITCHES have totally painted each other into really tight corners with these polar contradictions.

I am sorry. We are PILOTS, and the responsibility is our own.

FUCK YEAH! So let's all be MENTALLY PREPARED to do what a man's gotta do...

11-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2550/12981131483_dde259c80d_o.png


...and shut the fuck up about all these Rube Goldberg faggot releases that don't require anybody to be MENTALLY PREPARED.

The accountability for whatever happens to us, is ours to own.

Oh beautiful, for spacious skies...

And the better we accept, respect, embrace this... the safer our flight choices and activities become!

GOD BLESS A-MER-I-CA...

No fuckin' clue as to what happened on this latest tow fatality that had absolutely no textured air issues and never even made it to treetop level. Which tells us that he has absolutely no actual interest in the actual issues involved. Big fuckin' surprise after watching his response to the Tomas Banevicius a short hop up the road (from Quest, not Big Spring) less than sixteen weeks earlier. He knew what his message was gonna be prior to takeoff. "Everything's fine with the ways we do everything. You muppets just need to learn how to be real pilots. And you do that by listening to us."

Demolish this little boychick shit but good. We did it with Rooney, we can do it again with Ryan. More easily and effectively than ever before.