I've been working with Empeopled.com, a forum that is designed to encourage discussion and dialogue. They also have an interesting set up with designated "experts", which makes it a really good place for people to ask questions, and know a little more about if they can trust the answers they receive.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Since this video starts with him on launch, we don't know if he did a hook-in check already, a hang check, a preflight, took a pee before putting his harness on, or drove a hybrid car to launch... Why are you critiquing what you don't know, didn't see, didn't ask about, and isn't what he asked for critique on??? WTF?
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC
I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
Often when I quote something halfway intelligent somebody halfway intelligent had to say I'll cheat a little and patch up the spelling, punctuation, grammar, writing to cast the author in a better light and improve readability. A bit unethical perhaps but the meaning/substance is never altered and the source is damn near always cited so's the reader is free to check the original for any warts.
One mega mistake I've made was to do major surgery on this sub grade school level grammatical crap:
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves.
and turn it into:
A weak link is there to protect the equipment - not the pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting himself up for disaster. The pilot actuating his release is the way to save himself.
Half a dozen years ago I was grasping for straws in this campaign for aerotowing sanity. Questie, Regional Director, Towing Committee Chairman, insider, major player hitting the nail on the head... TAKE IT. USE IT. Thank you, God!
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
Use a flight park mandated piece of really flimsy fishing line to prevent lockouts but ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem 'cause it really doesn't do shit to increase the safety of the towing operation.
It's always hard to tell where the stupidity stops and the lying starts when one is dealing with these motherfuckers but it's always pretty damn clear one is dealing with a blend of the two.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Exactly. This guy's also a total piece of shit - another one that we'll never again hear commenting on weak link strength.
So I've gone through every quote of Steve Kroop's on Kite Strings and restored the evidence of his mid double digit IQ.
You can skip the weak link if you want. Many people replace fuses with pennies, hunks of water pipe, or they tape the circuit breakers on. Eventually the house burns down. If you fly without a weak link eventually you will get burned.
A weak link is just like the fuse in a domestic plug, and like the circuit breakers in the mains supply board in the house. By having the fuse blow at 5 amps your wife is spared burning or electrocution when her faulty hair dryer starts to try to draw more amps.
Angus Pinkerton - 2010/02/11 14:25:49 UTC
Chairman
BHPA Flying and Safety Committee
To take a not-completely-accurate but reasonable analogy, Alan's argument would seem to be that it is dangerous to have your lights go out in the house (you might fall down the stairs in the dark] - so to avoid this risk you should double up all your fuses and hence minimise the chances of a fuse blowing. Most readers will recognise that this involves swapping the 'risk' of some moderate danger when a fuse blows for the danger of burning down your house. This would reduce safety, not improve it.
Look how uppity people got when I even termed people "in the business" "professional pilots".
It's accurate, but some got all offended. They couldn't stand that someone doesn't see their uninformed opinion as holding as much weight as an informed one.
I know (very) basic electronics, but I don't argue with the electrician about which capacitor he uses for the timing circuit in my toaster. It's just not my field.
Ok, the "wrap ups" I was referring to are those really rare ones where the weak link is somehow bypassed. This is when the D-fly's break-away mast then steps up to become the new primary safety fuse.
Whenever somebody starts trotting out an electrical fuse / circuit breaker analogy in a weak link discussion you can be one hundred percent certain that you're dealing with a motherfucker working on obfuscation and sabotage. THIS:
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
is all anyone really needs to understand about a weak link. It's just another way of saying "weak link" - something that breaks before anything on your glider bends or breaks. It needs analogies to explain it even less than the terms "light switch" and "gas pedal".
Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle.
I think a new pilot should know when and how to panic properly.
Dangling from the basetube is almost always a really good when, how tends to not matter all that much.
Brian Scharp - 2014/10/31 14:07:05 UTC
I didn't see any time in that video that I would have deployed a parachute.
Wouldn't have hurt to have had an identical retrieval chute deployed from the opposite control frame corner.
The correct response for a too high AOA is to pull in.
a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.
b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.
This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.
Sorry... but if you suddenly lose power, your nose just doesnt pop
Why didn't you ask if you should release during a high AOA? I would not.
Nobody would. However...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
It's tighter. It's not that much tighter.
One of the many weaklinks in the system breaks before the releases become unusable.
Have we considered straight pin releases?
Yes.
I'm mostly fine with them... as I've said many times in the past by the way.
Do be aware that they have their issues as well. In contrast to his holliness's assertions, they can jam. I've had one do so, so he can get stuffed, he's wrong. It has to do with how they're built, specifically, the line on the pilot end crunches up cuz it's too tight of a tolerance for the small barrel that's necessary to use with a straight pin.
My point is that everything has issues. Everything. Period.
Will I fly with a straight pin release? Sure.
Does it have the track record of the curved pins? No.
Does it have limitations that the curved pins don't? Yes, yes it does.
Do they matter? Depends on your situation.
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink. (it doesn't quite fit the same) OH! Right. Just might be that we've thought of that eh?
...when you're dealing with a piece of "equipment"...
Joe had been at Whitewater, MN all weekend, towing and flying his happy head off. Sunday night he made a deal to purchase a Topless glider.....he was landing his first flight on it Monday morning when he stalled after transition and couldn't recover....landed hard.
You fly the glider up to the point at which you need to transition for LANDING. Then above all else LAND the glider. You can take this FLYING THE GLIDER thing too far, ya know. Let's not go nuts here.
You may get hurt but I guarantee that the injuries will not be anywhere as life threatening as if you panic and freeze up.
I'd be careful about that guarantee. I can cite you a lot of people who'd have ended up in WAY better shape if they'd let go of the downtubes with both hands and used them to cover their eyes.
If the glider breaks and is not flyable, by all means toss your laundry asap!
This video from Learn 2 Slide is a perfect example of staying focused and not panicking.
Fuck focused. Only total morons stay focused while they're flying. There's almost always to much shit going on - 'specially in this one.
This young man (Corey) never stopped flying the glider.
Bullshit. He did and he should've done more of not flying the glider. He should've worked on that chute longer while he had the air in which to do it. That thing scared the crap out of me on my first run through the video.
For the limited experience he had he saved his life by staying focused on getting himself safely on the ground asap!
Yeah, right, he saved his life. Death would've been the only other possible outcome had he put in a lesser performance.
He realized very quickly that releasing the tow line wasn't going to help and focused on the task at hand.
using both hands to release the END of the towline while the farther upwind section of with the chute was snagged on the glider.
I am not second guessing the decisions that Corey made.
Great. I'll do it.
In my opinion...
It's not about OPINIONS - idiot.
...he proved himself as being a pilot and dealing with the situation he found himself in that day.
Name some people you'd expect to NOT deal with it?
GREAT JOB!!
No. Pretty good considering.
The only thing I would have done different was to turn to the right instead of to the left as there is nothing for the tow line to hook on to going to the right.
I'd have collapsed the fuckin' chute and either cleared it or kept it partially wadded up in my right hand while staying welded to the basetube.
That should have been something that Learn 2 Slide briefed the students on.
Yeah. Right.
Students at this level should never be towed from this site above 10' as there is no safety margins at all.
If there were no safety margins AT ALL this guy would've ended up as dead as Zack Marzec did when HE flew with no safety margins AT ALL.
Just my thoughts
Just keep working on them.
Brian Scharp - 2014/10/31 18:17:06 UTC
How would rate a decision to go back up with that release that required him to let go of the control bar with two hands...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
All the more reason to use a WEAKER weaklink. If you're bending pins rather than breaking the weaklink, I have to think your weaklink is too strong (and now the pin has become the weakest link in the system
...that all this fuckin' shit brained douchebags use and sell.
If you even bothered to look, this is not the students gear!!!
- How do you know?
- Who's going up with it?
He is just learning to HG and you are blaming him for trusting his instructors advice and trusting him to provide the proper equipment......really?
I'm blaming goddam wastes of space like YOU. We've spent YEARS trying to beat that goddam horse to death while douchebags such as yourself are totally content to watch those things being mass produced and going up on 99.999 percent of the aerotow flights that leave the ground.
There needs to be an intervention by the experienced pilots in the area before someone really gets hurt here!
Yeah, it has to be EXPERIENCED PILOTS to handle this one. It's not like a nonpilot with a few ounces of common sense could identify and remedy any issues here.
Any thoughts on Whitewater and Joe Julik? Fuck no.
Brad Barkley - 2014/10/31 20:05:50 UTC
There has been an intervention. I know that our Region 9 director and Ryan Voight have both gotten involved, and that the instructor is open to help.
They looking for ways they can help make it any worse? Fuck both of those assholes. Fuck anybody who'd have anything to do with Ryan.
I never blamed him. I actually think he did well and kept his cool. I found it disturbing that he had to let go of the control bar to release.
Why? Once you've taken ONE hand off to make the easy reach it's not like there's a huge additional penalty to take the other one off to easily pry your piece of bent pin shit open.
I was hoping by way of answering my question you'd share your opinion on that.
It's an OPINION he's looking for here, Rolla. Knock yourself out.
I'm aware that he's new and the equipment probably is not his.
He's Pilot In Command. As long as he's in the air it's his.
At this point though I'd hope he considers that letting go of the control bar at the wrong time could be disastrous.
That, and just needing to not let go in order to prolong one's life an extra second or two ("just freezing" as they call it in The Industry) has been extremely fatal many times before.
Maybe you don't agree.
If he actually gave a flying fuck don't you think there'd have been some previous indication from some point in the near five years that he's been registered?
Rolla Manning - 2014/10/31 22:28:47 UTC
The whole thing took 36sec from start to finish.
Gives ya a pretty good appreciation of just how long a quarter second can be when the shit's hitting the fan under ten feet, don't it?
3sec in he realizes he has a big problem...
That's Flight 7. He shoulda realized he had a big problem no later than about fifty seconds into Flight 6. A "release" "system" like that would've...
Could you go into more detail about your push button truck tow release and the lanyard version you experimented with? I'm truck towing an awful lot lately and have yet to find a release that doesn't scare the heck out me.
...scared me shitless long before I got anywhere close to launch on Day One, Flight One.
...8sec later realizing the glider is at trim...
HOW...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
...CONVENIENT!!!
...he takes the second hand off to get rid of the tow line from his harness. He was successful in releasing the tow line although it did not get it untangled from the glider.
Maybe that detail should've been on the front burner.
Now he can focus on flying the glider without worrying about the tow line sucking his body up against the right down tube and lossing all control if it gets snagged.
Nah. He'll be just fine if the towline gets snagged on the ground with it just snagged on his control frame corner.
I am sure we can all agree that if the tow line had snagged on something and pull him hard over to the right down tube and got stuck there with no control authority at all this would have be a completely different outcome.
'cept without the crack Felipe Never-Again Amunategui / Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight troubleshooting team paying anybody a visit.
He was in the fight for his life!
Bullshit. Roy Messing and Eric Mies were in fights for their lives. Neither one came out of them very well.
In my opinion, I would have done the same thing, including letting go of the control bar to release the rope.
I never had the slightest doubt, douchebag. And you would, of course have also let go with both hands on the previous flight to pry your bent pin wonder open.
The only thing different, I would have turned to the right.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
That's a REAL professional pilot, Jim. They tend not to impress me in the least. They take whatever crap is handed to them and do whatever they've been told to with it.
Brian Scharp - 2014/10/31 23:18:33 UTC
Me too and in that case it worked out fine.
Yeah...
...realizing the glider is at trim...
All of hang gliding towing theory is based on the assumption that the glider will be flying at trim. Read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden cover to cover sometime. And when it isn't, when reality rears its ugly head...
Matt Philips, the owner and instructor for Learn2Glide, has been hang gliding since 2010. He has logged more than 40 hours of solo airtime at various sites in the US, including Colorado, Utah, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania. His personal altitude record is over 10,000ft above the ground. Matt became a USHPA certified and insured instructor in 2012 (USHPA #90246) and has spent countless hours working with a variety of students since then. Matt and Learn2Glide eagerly await giving you the opportunity of a lifetime and look forward to getting you in the air soon!
Wow flying since 2010 ! he must be a real H2.5
Yes, obviously a very YOUNG pilot. Not even old enough to have learned how to properly use punctuation and the shift key - or to understand that young and inexperienced aren't synonyms.
Zack Marzec (27), an H-4 Pilot with Aero Tow and Tandem Aero Tow proficiency as well as Advanced Instructor and Tandem Instructor appointments, and a USHPA member since 2009, suffered fatal injuries when when his glider tumbled during an aero tow launch. During the launch, at an altitude of 150 AGL, the pilot encountered an invisible bullet thermal which pitched the nose up, causing the weak link to break. Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice. The pilot and glider's leading edge hit the ground simultaneously. The pilot was utilizing his own pro-tow style tow harness, this own high performance glider with VG on, and was not wearing a full face helmet.
...and the operation at which he abruptly ceased getting older.
Sometime in 2009 to very early 2013. Probably even younger than Matt.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/01/23
12. Standard Operating Procedure
10. Towing/Aerotowing Administration
09. Aerotow Pilot Appointment (ATP)
-B. Aerotow Equipment Guidelines
02. The tow line connection to the towing vehicle must be arranged so as to not hinder the control system of the towing vehicle.
But, on the TOWED vehicle, hell, just hook it up however the fuck...
...you feel like. Strip off the top half of your pitch control range 'cause you're a PRO and have the training and experience to be able to handle things. And use a weak link at or off the bottom of the FAA legal range and about half of USHGA's recommendation.
And just how much flak does Quest catch? More fun and a lot safer to beat up on the little guy? He's got a little scooter tow operation in a chunk of the country which has soarable ridges coming out of its ass so no established flyers have the slightest need for anything he has to offer?
Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/01 15:49:55 UTC
Whitewater
Tommy, I see things a bit different. I can picture a caveman looking up at soaring birds, and wondering. It may even be the reason we came out of the trees, some knucklehead thought if he flapped his arms fast enough he could fly, the rest is history.
I agree the masses will never trade there arms for wings (commit the time and money needed to fly), and the age of clearing launches with machetes while picking off ticks may be gone, but the dream is still there, waiting for an opportunity. IMO as long as the opportunity exists even the masses well check it out, that's the reason places like Lookout can continue grow. A tandem program can give anyone the opportunity to experience and know the wonder of soaring flight, IMO the only reason I have an opportunity to trade my arms for wings is because the dream of flight is so common. (Tandems make a dragonfly practical).
HGing can grow along with a robust Tandem program, if Instructors show the passenger how good the Instructor can fly the glider you'll get lots of OOHHS & AAHHS and screams, but very few new HGing pilots. If on the other hand the Instructors shows the passenger how it's possible the passenger can fly, new HGer pilots are made.
The problem I see is complacency, as the Tandem program ages.
Starts a few seconds after takeoff then a mind-numbingly boring five minutes and thirty-eight second climb in which a serious student is a goddam potted plant. Then at 09:59 we go into approach mode and the "student" again becomes a passenger. Tyler has a finger or more on the basetube for two seconds shy of four minutes out of the twelve minutes and sixteen seconds we see the glider in motion. Thirty-two percent of what we see. And in that time he sure ain't doing much in the way of exploring the capabilities of his wing.
were both uploaded on the same day - 2014/08/18 - so we have no idea which came first.
Assuming the:
- scooter came first I'm sure not seeing much emphasis on hard, fast, decisive turn initiation or correction.
- tandem aero came first that experience blindingly obviously wasn't worth shit in preparing him for the real world training situation in which he'd shortly find himself at an altitude at which they're keeping score.
As far as I'm concerned anybody halfway seriously interested in learning to fly should be in the under-harness from Flight One practicing controlling the glider as much as possible.
- Let him start taking control as soon as it's safe - from under a hundred feet.
- As you get higher have him deliberately get it a bit out of position and bring it back.
- After release have him put it through its paces all the way down until it's time to set up the approach.
- Talk him through the approach and landing. Use a little help muscle on the bar for a second or two if needed.
This is our most popular choice for a first hang gliding experience.
Discover "dynamic free flight soaring" by taking a discovery tandem with one of our certified tandem instructors. Allow yourself to be towed up with an instructor on a tandem hang glider with our Dragonfly aerotow plane. You can just go along for the ride and take in the free flight experience. Because the discovery flight was meant to be a training flight you will be asked if you want to take control with the help of your instructor. You will learn all the basics of controlling the glider on your first flight! If you decide to persue the sport of hang gliding the discovery tandem flight will count as your first lesson.
$259 for under four minutes of control time. $3917.65 per hour for the privilege of touching the control bar in flight - under the supervision of a certified tandem instructors who can't spell "pursue" - and doing precious little with it. And we wonder why nobody can fly worth shit and the sport's going down the toilet.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
...mine destroyed. Twenty-Eight years, Hang 4.9, just about all the merit badges, instructor, site record holder, site pioneer, equipment developer... Everything down the toilet - mostly for trying to get the Tad-O-Links that Davis and everybody else is now happy with into the air BEFORE the next guy got killed.
Have fun, Majo. Live the dream! You're the BEST!
P.S. When you get a chance please tell us what aerotow weak link makes you the happiest.
I was curious about some stats that you probably hold the key to... Do you have a way to crunch down some sort of a graphical representation of the OZ Report Forum Stats?
Something along the lines of Year/Views/Posts and of course the number of contributors?
We have a thread elsewhere on "building the sport" and I was curious as to how this site's activity has changed (or not) over the years.
Tad,
I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
I've seen many times the destructive consequences of "control freaks".
Ya really need a picture, Martin?
I'm starting to believe we are just down to just a few contributors...
Gets a lot more dismal than that when you tighten up on the definition of a contribution. And if you want a good yardstick then take a look at all the positive impacts The Davis Show has had on the sport.
...and the Forum has lost its wide base of contributions.
By design. Just like the Dragonfly tow mast breakaway that was geared to blow at a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot. Eventually the fucking geniuses actually working on things figured out that if you gear a tow mast breakaway to blow at a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot you'll need to dumb the fishing line down a lot more to protect it. And fuck the gliders which are the Dragonfly's only reason for being in the first place. The Oz Report Forum has inevitably devolved into a platform for protecting Davis. And what do you think you're gonna see in the way of "contributions" and who do you think they'll be mostly be coming from?
Might even be the decline of the traditional forum?
They're all crap. They're all geared for promotion of friendly civil communities and thus they'll inevitably crush out anything that presents threats of free speech principles, ethics, intelligence.
I admit I've started loose interest in the traditional Forums... in fact very little "on-line" stuff draws me in...
That's 'cause they're all geared for, limited to, populated/dominated by useless assholes such as yourself.
Curious
If you were ACTUALLY curious about anything you'd be over here.
Gerry Grossnegger - 2014/11/25 05:24:20 UTC
The forum doesn't keep records specifically like that.
Maybe you could expand a bit on the things that forum doesn't do. Actually, no. Rather than spend the rest of the week on it just take five or ten seconds and tell us what it DOES do.
I could probably scrape posts/year out of the Db, but I don't think there'd be anything to indicate views/year. The server keeps logs of everything but culling tallys of forum access out of thousands of files wouldn't be easy. The only graphical charts would be server-wide.
Martin Henry - 2014/11/25 05:36:55 UTC
Thanks, I would of thought there would have been some sort of event tabulation ... on the other hand my VCR (with a worn out copy of Playground in the sky stuck in it...) is still flashing "12:00"... still I get the feeling, not only are we seeing the decline of our sport and our forums, we are see the decline of humanity
Mostly idiot thread on ways to make the suspension system more dangerous by fixing nonexistent problems.
NMERider - 2014/11/27 05:52:15 UTC
George mentioned about using a Maillon Rapide...
Quick link.
...as a backup connection to the reserve bridle. I'm personally reluctant to attach a bridle loop to both the caribiner...
Carabiner.
...and then to the harness riser. In the event of a deployment with a mostly intact glider, the reserve bridle loop will be pulled in two directions at once, possibly tearing open a portion of the stitching. When I have mocked up the forces in my hand it gave me concern. I have not asked Betty, Steve or Mike Meier about this.
Do you need to? If they're not advising this lunacy in their owners' manuals it's not rocket science to figure out their likely positions.
Joe Greblo - 2014/11/27 17:08:14 UTC
That's an interesting observation. I carry Maillon Rapide s/s links for those pilots that desire them.
Yeah, you'll never go broke catering to the stupidity of hang glider people. Have you consider stocking Birrenators for those of your students interested it pursuing towing?
I order them from Betty so I'm certain that she endorses their use.
Yeah. Wills Wing ships gliders with backup loops...
Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18
Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.
...so I'm also totally certain that they endorse their use.
Ever since the hang gliding industry changed from aluminum to steel carabiners in the 70's, I've pretty much stopped worrying about carabiner failures or parachutes becoming separated from the harness, and I've never heard of a reputable steel carabiner failure in hang gliding. George's story above is identical to one that I'm aware of years ago, but it was aluminum, not steel.
Ditto.
I seem to recall the results of studies to determine the loads associated with early powered ultralight parachute deployments were around 3500 lbs. If that's true, I can't see hang glider loads exceeding 5,000 lbs w/ today's faster gliders.
Over fourteen Gs for a heavy solo glider? Neither can I.
I've always felt confident with any popular steel carabiner because they are all stronger than that. I've been fond of the Stubai 5000 Kg carabiner because it's a standard bearer.
Yeah, just like the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot standard pitch and lockout protector. Hard to go wrong.
I'm fond of anything capable of holding enough force to rip through the keel - which all of them are. And I prefer the same thing in a weak link over the standard bearer too.
I also like the fact that it has no gate pin gap at the nose. This prevents any possibility of the slow, incessant work hardening common with aluminum biners.
Yeah, that's an issue that keeps me up late at night as well.
Now, there's always a small diameter pin at the bottom of the gate and this is subject to wear, abuse, and corrosion, so I like the idea of retiring a carabiner after some period of use.
That's a WONDERFUL idea! That should pretty much guarantee that you'll never become the first person in the history of carabiners to plummet to his death because of wear, abuse, and corrosion of the small diameter pin at the bottom of the gate.
Ya know what I like the idea of, Joe?
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
I like the idea of instructors teaching their students to ACTUALLY DO THAT. 'Cause when assholes like you teach bullshit like the Five Cs Hang Check and When-The-Fuck-Ever the condition and presence of the carabiner...
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
If you ever start running out of mind-numbing bullshit to read, Kinsley...
It's recommended people change their car tires when there's still tread on them, change their oil every 3,000-5,000 miles, and replace their brakes before they wear out, so why not replace your carabiner every so often (it's far less expensive).
You can measure tread depth to determine a safe limit, oil contamination to determine quality of lubrication, and brake pad thickness to get a projection on how many miles you likely have left to go before your brakes stop being brakes. Replace your carabiner when it's deteriorated to the point that it will fail before your keel does. Or pick whatever stupid number you feel like - it's a pretty simple test.
Perhaps an even more pertinent discussion is when to replace your harness mains since they deteriorate much more easily than a steel caribiner.
I can think of tons of more pertinent discussions. And since harness mains failure is a nonexistent phenomenon in hang gliding I'm having a hard time coming up with LESS pertinent discussions.
Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA. I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files. I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident, I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.
This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators. These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.
The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends. I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.
Guess we can't talk about REAL stuff though out of deference to the families and because simple witnesses aren't professional accident investigators and might have personal opinions of why the accident happened that would not necessarily hold true - or, more importantly, WOULD necessarily hold true.
I think I get it now, Joe. We can discuss carabiner and harness mains failures 'cause there aren't any families to defer to and no reports submitted by simple witnesses to the accidents and who may not be professional accident investigators who might express personal opinions that may not necessarily hold true. PERFECT topic for the Grebloville "Safety and Incidents in flight" subforum. We can keep this one going forever.
I've yet to meet the pilot dumb enough or arrogant enough to fly without a backup loop. Perhaps you'll be the first then?
Thanks, I needed a laugh
They catch us when our primaries finally wear through to the critical point.
I doubt very many biners get opened and closed more than 10,000 times in their lives.
Try the aluminum jobs we were using at the Kitty Hawk Kites hang glider ride factory on the dunes - sand and a pretty much constant bath in moist salty ocean air.
I would hazard a guess that is not subjected to frequent exposure to sand that a biner would be good for a million cycles. But for $35 to $45, why be cheap about it?
Why not? Hang gliding doesn't have enough impact on the world's resources as it is? There's nothing we can sink those dollars into to get more bang for our buck? Maybe a couple of straight pin barrel releases to replace...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
...Industry Standard crap?
Did you know that the sail on a topless glider cost nearly $5,000 and has a useful life of less than 500 hours? That's an amortization rate of $10/hour for just the sail. For me the true cost of hang gliding is ~$60/hour over the long run. $40-45 dollars of that per hour cost is related to...
...fossil fuel carbon dioxide spewing...
...transportation.
It's easy to be penny-wise and pound foolish in this sport and that's exactly what pilots typically do. Steve Pearson gave me the classic example of this when he introduced the Litestream and Slipstream control bar legs (downtubes). These were engineered to break before the pilots' arms fractured.
Bullshit. You make them thinner walled they're gonna be less likely to break your arms. But "engineered" to break before the pilots' arms fractured?
Whose arms? Those of hundred pound little girls or dudes two and a half times their size. Little girl gliders have shorter and thus stronger downtubes - the polar opposite of what you'd want.
Where does the flyer have his hands when the glider crashes? Halfway up such that the downtubes will snap most easily? Or down near the bottom where no fuckin' way the push of ANYBODY's arm is gonna do anything before or after the arm's snapped in half?
Pilots were soon complaining that they were having to shell out $65 a pop and were soon switching back to Attack downtubes which were over-built. The rate of spiral fractures of pilot forearms soon rose in proportion to the sale to Attack downtubes.
According to whom? Steve Pearson who was selling the lighter downtubes?
Bullshit. Hang gliding has NEVER had the kinds of solid crash data to make statements like that. And we're supposed to believe that somebody's got a database of spiral fracture crashes in which the downtube type is specified. We're always pretty lucky to get glider model - and it's a fuckin' miracle when we can get size as well.
And does this database record the percentage of crashes in which it was NECESSARY for the idiot to be up on the downtubes? How 'bout the percentage of crashes that were...
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...CAUSED by the idiot being up on the downtubes?
As far as breaking strength of connection components goes, I would hazard a guess that any force in excess of 2,000# against the harness risers will result in either a dead or paralyzed pilot. Just ask the late Adam Parer or the living Bill Soderquist about their respective deployments after free-fall. Adam's was at 120mph...
As I fought to remove the parachute I was aware of free-falling straight down in a boot-first/head-up/'pencil' position. This would later be confirmed by eye witnesses. Over the next 5 seconds while I continued to struggle with the parachute the sound of the airflow achieved a maximum and I realized I was at terminal velocity.
One arm was not enough so I reached down with the left and with both hands heaved on the handle. After another couple of seconds I felt the parachute finally come loose. I threw it sideways, let go and waited.
What came next was the most painful and violent impact I have ever felt in my life, like I had been torn in half. Extreme pain instantly filled the body with the worst of it concentrated in chest and upper back. I knew I had sustained serious injury and immediately suspected my back was broken. I looked up just enough to see one of the most beautiful things, a clean circular shape of the front 1/3 of the parachute, taut, inflated and in tact. The airflow was quiet now and the earth was no longer hurtling towards me. In less than 15 seconds I had fallen 4000', the parachute and harness survived the deployment and so had I but not without injury, and the pain suggested I was in a real bad way.
It AVERAGED over 180. I think it's a damn good bet that he was going about twice 120 when he was finally able to pry his 'chute out of that dangerous piece of crap harness that nobody's talking - let alone DOING ANYTHING - about.
...with a QS-330 and Bill's was more like 50-60mph with a LARA 250. Both pilots were badly injured by those opening shocks which took place with each pilot in a semi-upright posture.
Adam was in a TOTALLY upright posture. He was a fuckin' bullet.
Had they been flying cocoon harnesses like me the shocks would have probably snapped their necks.
Had Adam been flying cocoon harness like you there would've been no jam issue, he would've gotten the 'chute out immediately, and his terminal velocity would've been held to around 120.
Trust me that I know personally how little force it takes to fracture a neck in the face-down posture.
Then maybe people shouldn't be flying little 'chutes designed to stop them in a millisecond.
George's incident had nothing to do with the caribiner.
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