instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Mike Badley - 2015/02/11 19:23:06 UTC

Fred - Back the TRUCK UP, dude.

Even Comet would not want to see safety bypassed.

How do we know? There are plenty of assholes in this sport highly motivated to have it gutted to the maximum extent possible.

We do what we can to keep each other safe.

Right. It took us decades to can the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link snake oil 'cause we were all doing what we could to keep each other safe.

You cannot stop somebody from doing something if they are intent upon it.

Yeah ya can. There are such things as ratings and appointment revocations.

I remember well my H2 stage where I was flying at places where NOBODY was because I didn't have good mentor-ship, didn't want to waste time on the bunny hill and was pretty good at picking up on this stuff.

So? Were you violating any SOPs in doing so? I mean other than the one mandating hook-in checks.

All of us have lost friends that we COULD HAVE SAVED from the incident that killed them.

And, hopefully, an enemy or two.

Maybe they would have just continued until the 'next' time when you weren't there. Being safe is a mindset...

Doesn't really have much to do with what's in your mind. Mostly just how it's set.

...and you can't really change that in a forcible event.

Why should we have to? Aren't instructors supposed to ensure that their students are all properly qualified before they sign them off?

You have to get a guy to 'buy in' to being safe.

Yeah, he doesn't hafta do that to get the rating. Just hand over your credit card and you're good to go.

Maybe a near miss will help him buy in.

11-A12819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8339/28924980016_2ba1d20ef7_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8253/28924975726_0d24a615c2_o.png
13-A14319

Nope.

Alaska Newb - I can see where having somebody else release you has an advantage by keeping hands on the tube, however, I prefer a self release. That way I can punch off when I feel it is right. No confusion with voice commands or early release or late release...

You mean act as Pilot In Command? What a concept!

I think if your wing attack angle is right, speed is right, the brake pressure is right, you are not going to be squirrelly coming off that rig so much that you have to have both hands for the small second that it takes to punch the release.

You think?

Every release I have seen is VERY CLOSE to the hand - so there is not much reaching.

No release that I've seen has required ANY reach.

Also, if you ever do any foot launching, you will need to work with a release on your waist...

And don't consider for a nanosecond anything like:

05-02426
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14327615683_4108e5939d_o.png

06-03021
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2925/14120899757_3f3e59d05c_o.png

09-10817
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png


or the two stage application that Aleksey has developed.

...so getting used to taking your hand off the basetube is not a bad thing.

Course not. Like flying Rooney Links and pro toad bridles and skipping hook-in checks. Get used to taking your hand off the bar for platform launches so you'll be OK making the easy reach to your release in foot launch...

10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png


...low level lockouts.

Every tow rig is different...

But every aerotow weak link is exactly the same. It all depends upon what Davis Dead-On Straub is happy with at any given moment.

...do what works for you...

'Cause you're SPECIAL, Garret. Each one of us in this sport is SPECIAL so there's seventy-five thousand different things that all work best for one individual.

...and don't go around experimenting with more than ONE change at a time.

Right. If you see two deadly defects in your system just fix one of them. Hold off on the other for a couple months or so. It's OK to throw a hundred things together when your first assembling your rig then just go out and fly it but after that it's totally uncool to make two swaps at once. That's on Page 18 of the Established Dogma.

I'm sure you have a pretty well developed team by now. Brrrrrrrrrrr.......

And the well trained brains to keep things on track.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Aaron Swepston - 2015/02/11 21:36:53 UTC

Nothing quite like a confrontational challenge to morons to get a thread spinning, eh?

I've poked my head out a bit today, so might as well do a bit more poking.

1) By continually emphasizing what bad thing can happen they present a distorted and negative view to onlookers.

I agree that continually emphasizing what negative things can happen detracts from a discussion. But I disagree that talk of safety necessarily excludes the emphasis on the positive benefits that can be had. My suggestion is that when discussing safety, mix in both the consequences, as well as the benefits. Balance is good, and it is also reflective of reality.

2) By constantly emphasizing the negative, they can induce fear in others which can become self-fulfilling and actually make the negative happen.

Fear can be a very healthy thing.

Yeah, I think Rob Kells...

Rob Kells - 2005/12

My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

...once had something to say along that line about some particular issue.

I know that fear has kept me from being excessively stupid from time to time. Instead of trying to rid myself of fear, I try to recognize it and work with it. I am certain that without fear, I would be dead. I'm not sure how inducing fear that may not previously exist, would cause the feared event to happen. If someone is going to ride a unicycle towards a sheer cliff, fearlessly, and I were to say hay, that's a sheer cliff, you might fall off if you ride your unicycle too close to it, if that person then experiences fear of falling over the cliff, will that fear cause him to ride right up to it and over the edge? Maybe I don't understand that concept of self fulfilled action. If in hang gliding, I suggest a pilot not launch just this moment because it is gusting up too strong, and to wait a minute for it to calm, will my suggestion cause him to say screw it, I'm launching now anyway, and because of my mention he will be less prepared to handle the excessive conditions? Better to not say anything and watch as what I predict happens? I'm sure that is not what you intended, so I must not understand hat concept well enough.

3) By emphasizing the negative, they make the entire forum a downer.

Yeah, I agree. We do this stuff for fun, and we don't need our dabbling in the social side of it to be a downer. I get that, and I agree with it.

That must be why Davis locked down the epic Zack Marzec discussions a couple years ago.

Which goes back to my earlier statement, that it is good to find balance in what we do and say. But I have to reject the implied suggestion that the subject of safety is inherently negative. On the contrary, I think the subject of safety is incredibly positive and incredibly empowering. The element of risk has never enhanced my joy of flying. Surviving a high risk situation does not make that situation somehow better than had it been lower risk. I feel so much better flying with the comfort and confidence that I am reducing my risk, not increasing it. So for me, safety is a very positive, and empowering thing.

But Mitch Shipley, right after scooter towing Paul Edwards into a smashed face, told us:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

So you think he's WRONG about the issue of getting your face smashed in once in a while increasing the attractiveness of the sport? If so, is there any possibility that he's wrong about?:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

I notice there aren't a whole lotta people soliciting or - 'cept for Yours Truly - quoting his comments ON ANYTHING nowadays.

4) ...they discourage exploration, new thinking, advancement and excellence.
Safety minions will always say NO to a new idea, or anything done differently than the established dogma. Imagine: 360-degree turns were once considered dangerous. No doubt there were dire warnings of the consequences!

Maybe you are talking about just some people who go on about safety, and in doing so unintentionally painting everyone who cares about safety with the same broad brush. Because I absolutely believe in being as safe as possible, under the circumstances.

Do you absolutely believe in being as safe as possible enough to endorse hook-in checks, releases not within easy reach, Tad-O-Links, tight approaches, wheel landings and condemn scum like Davis Dead-On Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Tom I-Don't-Teach-Lift-And-Tug-As-It-Gives-A-False-Sense-Of-Security Galvin, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Matt Taber in no uncertain terms?

We are flying hang gliders, after all, and that is a high risk, dangerous activity. Being safe is an absolute necessity. Being neurotic about it can be a problem, I agree, but being safety minded at all times is not what I consider to be a problem, and I think I have a pretty good time flying most of the time.

I used to - until the sport was totally hijacked by assholes like the ones I just mentioned.

I disagree that safety discourages innovation and exploration. It is possible to innovate an explore with one's mind attuned to doing so safely.

Name some innovations that have made the sport more dangerous - other than the Instant Hands Free Release, Birrenator, and Greg Porter Checklist.

I strive for excellence, personally, and I think I've done a reasonable job advancing while trying to stay safe. I've helped people learn to loop, or spin, all the while stressing a huge margin of safety, if that's not too much of a contradiction.

It's not.

The concept of safety is not simply a way to stop action or progress, it is also a way to find a route safely forward.

That's ENTIRELY what safety's about. The Wright Flyer and Apollo 11 come to mind.

Many times, safety is a matter of thinking first and choosing the most reasonable plan of action. It really is possible to push forward into new realms, with a safety conscious mind at the helm.

It's the ONLY way - if you have much in the way of expectations of coming back, doing it again, continuing farther.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

NMERider - 2015/02/11 22:51:00 UTC

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC

I have considerable experience with forums. I have observed that there is on every forum a contingent who feel it is their duty to be the guardians of safety. To virtually any topic they can and do make grave pronouncements of injury and death if everything isn't done exactly as they say. You see, safety is always the high road; it cannot be argued against. Therefore the more safety one advocates, they higher they are on the pedestal of righteousness. They stand important upon their ivory tower of forum sanctimony.

The problems with this are numerous...

An unstated problem I see with this is all too frequently the so-called Safety-Nazis are merely stating their personal opinions and are not necessarily stating well-established best practices of risk management. As an unintended consequence they merely serve to muddy up the waters so that other more meaningful posts (including possibly their own) become obscured by the muck or diluted by the shear volume of needless nay-saying while quieter yet more meaningful voices become drowned out by the din. In the end all that spouting off does is to drive people away and antagonize those who might be best served by listening to cooler heads.

Another unstated problem with the hellfire and brimstone safety preachers is that all too often the safety preaching has been little more than a thinly veiled disguise for what amounts to conceit and braggadocio about how exulted and superior they are. Sad stuff that serves no constructive purpose.

To me the word, 'safety' is misplaced in the world of hang gliding which is an inherently unsafe sport to begin with. It is a 'high risk' sport by it's very nature and so the conversation may best revolve around the expression and philosophy of 'Risk Management'.

How 'bout competence? What's the difference between safety, risk management, competence? If you leave the field with a broken arm - or dive your tandem glider and passenger into the powerlines while dangling from the basetube 'cause you never do hook-in checks - haven't you pretty obviously demonstrated a substantial degree of incompetence? I'll bet people would be a lot more reluctant to piss all over competence nazis than they are to piss all over safety nazis.

But this is an unmoderated forum...

Doesn't really need to be. THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

pretty much takes care of all imaginable problems.

...with little or no community-based self-moderation...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24633
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:15:42 UTC

You guys need to PM me when TAD shows up. He is NOT allowed to access this website.

...and I have little expectation that this topic will even be remembered after a month's time if that.

I'll remember it. A lot of the viability of Kite Strings is dependent upon me remembering stuff.

In the end it is each and every pilot's own responsibility to seek out risk management education and then practice it as he or she sees fit.

And fuck USHGA SOPs and FAA regulations.

Sadly, I have observed over the course of six or so years pilots who have raised their risk management practices only to be subjected to open ridicule and insults by some of the most highly self-appointed safety snobs on this forum.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

God I love the ignore list

Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.

I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.

This one's plain and simple.... with a protow setup the tow force on either side of the bridal is halved. If that bridal wraps when you release the barrel, ALL of the tow force is now on the weaklink.

Please do not think for an instant that that thing isn't going to let go. It's going to snap so fast that you won't realize what happened till after it's happened.

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

That is simply appalling to me.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professional" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hey kids...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

NMERider - 2015/01/25 18:16:21 UTC

The late pilot is the well-loved and respected Trevor Scott and if anyone who is linked via Facebook wishes to pay his./her respects please do so:
http://www.facebook.com/trevor.scott.967

The accident is under investigation so for love of mankind, everyone please refrain from playing CSI Hang Glider!

Remember this one?

[Steve Davy]

And don't consider for a nanosecond anything like: ... or the two stage application that Aleksey has developed.

I'm not familiar with that one.

Where do I learn about that two stage that Aleksey has developed?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.kitestrings.org/post7415.html#p7415

Been a bit overwhelmed lately. Forgot that I hadn't made a public reference to it before.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4683
Stupid pilot tricks

TomS - 2015/02/13 01:07:15 UTC

Borrowing from Letterman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiag7JkrJ_k


Did you catch it? I wish I , um , I mean my friend had.

I ALWAYS had safety lanyards on the peripherals - radio, vario, compass, GPS.
Maybe Joe needs to concoct another C - Communications device safetied.

[Tad Eareckson]

Couple days ago FINALLY IDed Aussie Methodist asshole, Lockout Mountain Flight Park product and cheerleader, Jack Show total douchebag FormerFF:

Matt Pericles - Roswell, Georgia - 86453 - H2 - 2007/08/19 - Gordon Cayce - FL CL FSL - Exp: 2012/10/31

Mouthy goddam Hang Two punk with zilch in the way of merit badges from a career probably spanning about five years.

Last indication of a pulse:
2013/08/17 01:00:41 UTC
with a Jack Show post total of 2484.

All relevant posts edited accordingly.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Your second statement is why.
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

Meanwhile, back at reality...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
12-22509

And I think I know what the problem is... You're assuming that the Collective Wisdom will be taking the lead on the innovation...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/18 20:12:54 UTC

I love innovation.

...you love so much while the Collective Wisdom...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...is holding back watching for your seal of approval. So just how good a recipe for the innovation you love so much? Is that how things work with glider design? Are the kites we fly today also totally indistinguishable from the ones from the ones we had a quarter century ago?

[Tad Eareckson]

Check out these avatars:



Right. Try to find some NON megalomaniacal sociopathic control freaks using avatars primarily featuring themselves, a maybe or better identifiable image of the owner.

Bob...

I'm your friend and I think you're great no matter who you are - 'specially if you're Sam.

Davis...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

...'cause I'm an Industry good ol' boy who refuses to do or acknowledge the existence of the hook-in check. Plus this time deliberately.

Rooney...

Hey cute chicks... Come to Coronet Peak to get the tandem thrill ride crossed off your bucket list with the world's greatest Pilot In Command - God's own special Gift to Aviation. I'm so cool I don't need hands to fly these things - 'cept on the odd occasion of making the inevitable mistake of not hooking myself in. Even then I won't really be using my hands to fly the glider - just to cling to survival while I dive it, and you, into the powerlines.

And don't even think about touching the bar - I'm the Pilot In Command of this thing. You're just a passenger so keep your hands on me at all times. Not that I really need to tell you to do that anyway - it would be your natural inclination.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11288
*???tandems???*

Jim Rooney - 2009/03/29 20:32:51 UTC

Wow, didn't think I'd be taken as trying to hide anything...
No worries.... my info is all public knowledge.

Me... clip in failure 2006, Coronet Peak NZ. Extreme Air hang gliding.
(btw, everyone seems to miss the fact that it was _during_ my hang check). Yes, tandem. Passenger was fine, visited me in the hospital. Me? multiple injuries. Two and a half months in hospital.

What incredible fucking gall that asshole has.