Don - 2008/09/05 20:21
Long Beach, California
AZHPA
Re: Schroeder System
I fail to see how this process is 100% effective - because it requires the pilot to remove the card if he unhooks. How many pilots are going to follow this procedure when all they are doing is "running over there for something". Don't kid yourself - this procedure is NOT 100% effective because it still requires the pilot to manually follow a routine.
Any manual routine is subject to the risk of error.
The fact is - there is NO foolproof way to prevent this type of accident in foot launches. There are only ways to REDUCE the risk.
Yeah but...
We could SO wipe this thing down to barely detectable levels if from Day One, Flight One...
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
- We instill the very appropriate fear of launching unhooked for the people too stupid to figure out on their own what a threat this issue is.
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
- We teach that "just prior to launch" doesn't mean five, ten, fifteen, or twenty seconds or minutes from now and "launch" doesn't mean the back of the ramp.
Steve Kinsley - 2001/12/10
I don't have a problem with doing a hang check if you think you need one. Fine. I will help. But I think pilots should confine hang checks to the setup area. A hang check is like assembling your glider. You don't do it on the ramp. And it is not a hook-in check. The California folks have this one right.
I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:
HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.
HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.
They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.
- We teach that preflight procedures and hook-in checks are not interchangeable or mixable ways to do the same thing.
Steve Kinsley - 1998/05/01 01:16
So Marc thinks the Australian method will forever ban human error and stupidity. I suspect that eighty percent of the flying community would have unhooked to fix the radio problem instead of getting out of the harness entirely. It is easier. And there you are back in the soup.
"With EACH flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR to launch." Emphasis in original. - USHGA Beginner through Advanced requirement.
I know of only three people who actually do this. I am one of them. I am sure there are more but not a lot more. Instead we appear to favor ever more complex (and irrelevant) hang checks or schemes like Marc advocates that possibly increase rather than decrease the risk of hook in failure.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
- We teach that any procedure you use to reassure yourself that you're hooked in more than one instant before commitment to flight is DANGEROUS.
Basically, the idea is that no matter whether you use the Aussie method or not (another emotive topic), or how you do your hang check (step through or hang, look, feel, whatever) the VERY LAST THING you do immediately before every launch is to lift the glider up off your shoulders so the hangstrap goes tight and you FEEL the tug of your legloops around your groin/thighs.
More important, I think, is a change in mindset: that you constantly assume that you are NOT hooked in. That is the default mindset and only after you've done the lift and tug - immediately before every launch - do you decide you're hooked in. Also, because the default assumption is negative rather than positive, you are much less likely to start any run unhooked.
- We teach that this is a "gun is always loaded" issue.
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
- We train our new pilots to perform as competent crew, stop worrying about fucking hang checks, and start focusing on hook-in checks the instant before commitment to launch.
Rob Kells - 2005/12
"Knowing" that if you are in your harness you must be hooked in, means that if something comes up that causes you to unhook for any reason, you are actually in greater danger of thinking you are hooked in when you are not. This happened to a pilot who used the Oz Method for several years and then went to the training hill for some practice flights. He unhooked from the glider to carry it up the hill. At the top, sitting under the glider with his harness on, he picked up the glider and launched unhooked.
- We shoot a few dozen Aussie Methodist assholes just to let them know we're serious.
Don,
You are right. I shouldn't have said 100%.
But it is easy to implement, I mean, simple and easy to follow the rules which results in higher percentage of compliance.
You are right, nothing is 100%.
Alan Deikman - 2010/06/10 23:42:59 UTC
Fremont, California
A while back I was sitting in a meeting that was going on forever and to keep from going insane I sketched a design of a FTHI preventer device with the following constraints:
1. Light weight - does not add drag.
2. Low cost - not more than $10 of parts.
3. Operator insensitive - requires no new operator procedure.
4. No electronics or other consumables that could wear out and cause failure.
I convinced myself it could be done and that there would be plenty of areas where someone smarter than myself could improve it. Then I decided not to show it to anybody or pursue a patent because, ultimately, I felt it would not be good for pilot safety because such a device would undermine the need for pilot discipline.
Both the Hook-Check-Before-Launch (not hang check) and the Oz method both rely on pilot discipline. Take that away and they become significantly ineffective.
This thing is a VERY DANGEROUS DISTRACTION. The focus needs to be on the drop-off, the suspension, and the hook-in check the INSTANT before launch. Nothing else.
(The good news is that these sorts of things never make into circulation at any detectable level.)
Mark Knight - 2008/09/07 21:09
Tempe
AZHPA
Dan check list
Dan and Erin Schroeder could you bring some of your checklist devices to the meeting Tuesday? Or if you can not make it let me know I will pick up a few from you.
I would like to purchase one.
Which means that you don't do - OR LOOK FOR - hook-in checks. Big surprise.
How much are they?
Merle - 2008/09/05 17:46
He has approximately thirty of these ready to distribute. At one point he was selling them for $20 or $30. He has offered them free to the club. We will accept donations for them for Kunio's family.
Do you read this stuff?
How 'bout this:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Here's another thought?
Why don't we, on "BIG WEEKENDS", or any for that matter..if enough people are available, appoint a safety director-s who's job is to do nothing but observe the launches? Making sure "we" are hooked in? It seems there is always a person with a uspha card always available who isn't flying? Just a thought?
Mark Knight - 2008/09/08 19:25
We already do this.
The flying for the day was done.
All the gliders were gone.
I had already put all the shirts away, Steve had put the food away.
I believe Jerry and Allen had already gone back to camp.
It was time to kick back and help Marshall get ready for the evening cookout.
Then the truck came back up with a few returning pilots who saw the wind sock and all said, "Hey let's fly again".
It really had nothing to do with the meet other than it was the same day.
When they chose to fly it was them and a handful of people standing around like any other Saturday.
I'm not trying to make excuses.
You are correct in your thoughts.
Thanks for the input.
Hey...
I have another idea!
- Find somebody in your idiot club who's functionally literate enough to read and comprehend this:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
sentence.
- Failing that... Find someone in the Phoenix area who can read, interpret, and explain it to people.
- Get your idiot "PILOTS" to start COMPLYING with it.
- That should pretty much end the problem right there but for good measure and because we're (making the pretense of being) a "self regulated" branch of aviation...
- While you're getting your idiot "pilots" to start acting like pilots deputize them ALL to be Safety Directors at ALL "BIG WEEKENDS". (Give them armbands or something. They'll really like that.)
- And by "Big Weekend" I mean any Saturday or Sunday afternoon - or Tuesday morning - when there's more than one pilot alone on the ramp.
- That's what I do. Whenever I see anyone heading towards a ramp with a glider I appoint myself a Safety Director. Who's gonna say I can't and do anything about it?
- And then I just look at his suspension to see if:
-- he's connected to his glider; and
-- it goes tight just before he launches so he ALSO knows he's connected to his glider.
- This ain't rocket science, folks. A goddam ten year old kid with half a brain or better can do this job after about fifteen to thirty seconds training. Doesn't even need a fucking USHPA card. As a matter of fact I'd feel WAY more comfortable if he didn't have one.
- If JUST ONE of you assholes at the north launch had been up to this job Kunio would still be participating in your Labor Day Weekend fly-ins.
Tad,
Some may not like your comments, but that means nothing to me.
You've helped raise awareness of two very critical issues. (hook-in & releases)
Thank you,
Paul
Kunio's (totally needless) death triggered a 219 post thread on The Davis Show. (Currently on Page 115 with 12251 hits.)
Did any of you bozo's participate in it?
Read any of it?
Just kidding.
Kunio's accident was simple - he didn't perform a hang check!
I was taught to perform a "Hook-in Check" if I haven't checked in the last thirty seconds - I call it the "Joe Greblo Hook-in Check". Obviously Kunio didn't perform one of those either.
You can ask all you want - but based upon the write-ups I've read - he was in a hurry (moving to the North Launch rather than waiting for Randy to launch). I also assume that no one was at the North Launch to assist him - they might have noticed the situation.
Let's face it - when you are in a hurry - you make mistakes. In hindsight the question becomes - what was so damn important that he was in such a hurry?
About four weeks ago we had a similar situation at Kagel - A pilot hooked into the spreader bar on his hang strap. If he had done a hang check he was have seen/felt his error. Luckily the spreader bar slipped free of the hang strap as the glider lifted off and he fell only a couple of feet - if it had held even three to five seconds his fate would have been sealed.
Sorry for the loss and my sympathy to the family.
Kunio's accident was simple - he didn't perform a hang check!
I already see where the anger and grief take us. We need to do hang checks, double hang checks. And who was on Bill's wire crew? How could they let that happen?
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
But what if there is no hang check and you are used to one?
DO A HOOK-IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
...it was your local institution of the goddam hang check which - more than any other factor - got him killed.
I was taught to perform a "Hook-in Check" if I haven't checked in the last thirty seconds - I call it the "Joe Greblo Hook-in Check".
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
...once, just prior to launch. Anything that happens more than more than one instant before commitment to flight is a dangerous waste of time. And you were taught a procedure which is a dangerous waste of time.
- You were taught by whom?
]With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Was it a fucking USHGA instructor? You got a fucking USHGA rating? I've got news for ya... "if you haven't checked in the last thirty seconds" and "just prior to launch" are NOT - believe it or not - synonymous.
- Why do you call it the "Joe Greblo Hook-In Check"? Was he your instructor? Your rather interesting take on the hook-in check sounds an awful lot like Bob Show Bob's rather interesting take on the hook-in check - and Joe signed that lunatic off on his ratings.
Obviously Kunio didn't perform one of those either.
Obviously none of those AZHPA assholes have never once in their flying careers ever even HEARD of anything remotely resembling a hook-in check.
You can ask all you want - but based upon the write-ups I've read - he was in a hurry (moving to the North Launch rather than waiting for Randy to launch).
- No he wasn't.
Randy SkyWalker - 2008/09/03 00:12
Phoenix
He was not alone on launch nor where he fell, and although many believe it was the hurry and rush situation, I know for a fact it was not that "simple". Kunio was anxious to fly and with my help we assembled his glider to ready it for launch. After thorough preflight on his wing and choosing to go to the North launch he took meticulous attention and time to pick his cycle and his location on the launch.
- And it would've been irrelevant if he had been. People don't launch unhooked 'cause they're in hurries. People launch unhooked 'cause they NEVER do hook-in checks.
I also assume that no one was at the North Launch to assist him...
- Wrong.
- Don't you think there's been enough assuming going on lately to last AZHPA for a while?
Couple universal truths I learned in the hospital bed...
You will screw up.
You will not save yourself.
If anyone saves you, it will be your friends.
I find it disheartening how the general opinion is contrary to this. No one believes it will happen to them. And they rely on themselves to prevent things from happening.
It is the way of things though.
- Never do hook-in checks ('cause if they were any good everyone would be doing them), accept the screwup as inevitable, and hope someone's around to stop you at the front of the ramp?
- So I guess we should really never self launch, right?
Let's face it - when you are in a hurry - you make mistakes.
Show me a SINGLE video of someone launching from Mingus who WASN'T making a potentially lethal mistake.
In hindsight...
There isn't one goddam molecule's worth of hindsight about this fatality.
....the question becomes - what was so damn important that he was in such a hurry?
- He wasn't.
- Why's it so damn bothersome to tighten your suspension that you can't do it within two seconds of launch?
- Oh, right.
Your five second time limit between hook-in check and launch is unreasonably short - especially when attached to the consequences that you've listed. This would preclude, for example, the "turn and look" hook-in check that Joe Greblo teaches because five seconds would easily elapse between that check and getting the glider back into position to launch.
With the Joe Greblo Hook-In Check you can't just lift and tug ever couple of seconds while you're thinking about launching. You gotta put the glider down and turn around and look at the carabiner to make sure it hasn't hasn't morphed into cardboard since the last time you looked at it thirty seconds ago.
About four weeks ago we had a similar situation at Kagel - A pilot hooked into the spreader bar on his hang strap. If he had done a hang check he was have seen/felt his error.
- And he wouldn't have detected the error if he had done a walk-through and looked at it?
- And this happened because he was in a hurry? Like Kunio?
- This doesn't have shit to do with failure to hook in. This is an assembly error. You use preflight procedures to catch assembly errors and hook-in checks to make sure the carabiner isn't dangling behind your knees.
- We know he skipped the preflight and it sure sounds like he skipped the hook-in check too.
- In fact - I'd be astonished if a Kagel flyer DIDN'T skip the hook-in check.
Sorry for the loss and my sympathy to the family.
Hold a little sorrow and sympathy in reserve. Nothing substantive is happening to make these any less likely to recur.
Joe Greblo gave an "unhooked" clinic at the Dockweiler dunes two weeks ago.
Progressive options after realizing you aren't hooked in:
1. Let go before you leave the ground.
(This requires a launch technique in which you never run holding the glider down on your shoulders. You train yourself to let the glider fly so you can note pressure on the leg straps. If you don't feel that pressure, let go of the glider.)
2. If you find yourself flying unhooked, do not let your grip slip down the downtubes.
(They probably will, which means the glider will dive.)
2A. If your grip slips down the downtubes, continue to #3. But #3 will be harder or impossible.
3. Swing up into the monkey position and fly the glider to landing or choose a place to deploy chute.
Then we all had a great time monkey-launching over the sand.
Then everybody went home and stared at the ceiling, thinking how hard this would be in real conditions. Which I think was the point of the clinic.
Greblo teaches a hook-in check the instant before launch. To him, a hang check is part of the preflight and has no value in confirming that you are hooked in at the moment of launch.
Joe Greblo gave an "unhooked" clinic at the Dockweiler dunes two weeks ago.
Why?
- There:
-- are two villages on opposite sides of a river about a hundred yards wide
-- is a very well worn path in a direct line between them.
- Hundreds of people use the path and swim the river back and forth daily to visit and trade.
- In an average year there are a half dozen crocodile attacks.
- Most of the time people can repel the attacks or break free and come through with a few cuts and bruises but you can count on one person a year ending up as lunch.
- There's a second path that angles off upstream to a bridge.
- It's a little bit longer but - because it's easier and faster to walk than swim - someone who crosses the bridge will actually arrive at the destination village a bit BEFORE the swimmer.
- But - despite the fact that the villagers are all scared shitless of crocodiles and spend enormous lengths of time discussing them - only half a dozen people use the bridge because virtually everybody who swims the river has done so hundreds of times and that route has always worked great for them.
- There's actually a regulation that went on the books at the time the bridge was built thirty years ago outlawing swimming the river and mandating use of the bridge but nobody ever follows or enforces it.
So do you...
- run a clinic to teach people:
-- to always scan the riverbanks for crocodiles before entering the water
-- how to do the breast stroke smoothly, quietly, efficiently
-- to always wear the brightly colored clothing which often confuses crocodiles
-- how to intimidate and bluff attacking crocodiles
-- how to punch and kick crocodiles to make them relinquish their grasps
...or...
- get them to stop swimming the fucking river and start walking the fucking bridge?
Does Joe Greblo ever give a "hooked" clinic at the Dockweiler dunes?
Progressive options after realizing you aren't hooked in...
Don't you just let the glider back down to your shoulders then park it on the ramp and hook in?
Let go before you leave the ground.
OH!!! You mean AFTER you've started running!!!
- Who the fuck would be STUPID enough to start running unless he had lifted his glider to tension his suspension in the previous two seconds?
- I know A LOT of launches at which the moment you establish forward momentum... I'm sure you do too.
This requires a launch technique in which you never run holding the glider down on your shoulders.
If this is the top of your game, then you should pick another game that doesn't involve telling new pilots that they should be lifting their gliders into a turbulent jet stream just to verify something that they checked ten seconds ago.
REQUIRE pilots to ALLOW the glider up into the turbulent jet stream just to verify some minor assembly issue that they haven't checked yet? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKING MIND?!?!?!
You train yourself to let the glider fly so you can note pressure on the leg straps.
What if you trained yourself to let the glider fly - or lift it up - so you could note pressure on the leg straps immediately BEFORE you started running? Just kidding.
If you don't feel that pressure, let go of the glider.
- And then just stop and as quickly as you can without falling down and getting beach sand all over your clothes. COOL!
- Any chance Joe can come to one of our McConnellsburg fly-ins and run this clinic on a Sunday morning before it gets soarable?
If you find yourself flying unhooked, do not let your grip slip down the downtubes.
(They probably will, which means the glider will dive.)
Good point. My first instinct would've been to let my grip slip down the downtubes. (What was the fee for this clinic?)
Swing up into the monkey position and fly the glider to landing or choose a place to deploy chute.
IF you can climb into the control frame DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT deploy your chute. HANG BACK to slow the glider down and get it under control.
Kunio's gonna die two years and twenty days from this post and 366 miles to the east of Dockweiler SOLELY 'cause he DIDN'T *HANG BACK* and DID *DEPLOY HIS CHUTE*. And he WOULD have come out smelling like a rose if he HAD and HADN'T. And none of those AZHPA assholes has ever even made that point.
Then we all had a great time monkey-launching over the sand.
- That was the one useful thing y'all did that day.
- But none of you were monkey-barring after climbing up into the control frame.
Then everybody went home and stared at the ceiling, thinking how hard this would be in real conditions. Which I think was the point of the clinic.
Did y'all really need to spend a good chunk of a day doing a clinic to get that point?
Greblo teaches a hook-in check the instant before launch.
No, he DOESN'T.
Don - 2008/09/02
Long Beach
Kunio's accident was simple - he didn't perform a hang check!
I was taught to perform a "Hook-in Check" if I haven't checked in the last thirty seconds - I call it the "Joe Greblo Hook-in Check". Obviously Kunio didn't perform one of those either.
Your five second time limit between hook-in check and launch is unreasonably short - especially when attached to the consequences that you've listed. This would preclude, for example, the "turn and look" hook-in check that Joe Greblo teaches because five seconds would easily elapse between that check and getting the glider back into position to launch.
He teaches some useless bullshit procedure - which was SUPPOSED to have been taken care of before getting to launch position - which PRECLUDES checking the instant before launch.
To him, a hang check is part of the preflight and has no value in confirming that you are hooked in at the moment of launch.
I just talked with Joe, and he said that hang checks do have limited usefulness in protecting against hook-in failures, and that their value in that regard decreases with the time between the hang check and the launch (he's absolutely correct here).
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
What a colossal and insane waste of time and energy. Run a clinic teaching people what they can do AFTER they launch unhooked? I didn't hear ONE FREAKING WORD about Joe saying ANYTHING about what to do BEFORE launching unhooked so you DON'T. What, is that NEXT weekend's clinic? Does that one cost extra? Is it just by special invitation for people whom Joe LIKES?
- Most people are capable of lift and tug. Most people in that clinic could've done three dozen dummy launches employing lift and tug to start getting the action hardwired.
- If there:
-- were any significant sea breeze - and there probably WAS - EVERYBODY can do lift and tug
-- are two people available for the sidewires - and there WERE - EVERYBODY can do lift and tug
-- is JUST ONE person available near launch position - and there WAS - he can give the pilot verbal confirmation that he's hooked in
- Did Joe say ANYTHING that day about adjusting or modifying harness suspension to make it possible for people who can't lift and tug to lift and tug? Just kidding.
- Did Joe say ANYTHING that day to tune people into focusing on fellow flyers, their suspension, and what they're doing the instant before launch? Just kidding.
-- I'm as confident that I'll do a hook-in check - lift and tug - under two seconds from launch as I am that I'll react to a stall thirty feet off the deck by pulling in, rather than doing nothing or pushing out.
-- But I'm not totally confident that I screwed my speed link shut or - if/when using what most people do - fully engaged the webbing with my carabiner. (Screwed that pooch one time and lucked out. Discovered the problem after landing and upon finding that it was a lot easier to unhook than usual.)
-- But the hook-in check always reminds me that I'm a moron and makes me really focus on thinking about how well I preflighted my suspension - and maybe whether or not I load tested my sidewires.
- Not everyone can lift and tug in all circumstances.
- For thems what can't a verbal confirmation within two seconds of launch is a lot better than nothing.
- Nothing is what the vast majority of flyers - the vast majority of whom are perfectly and easily capable of lift and tug - the world over use following their precious fucking hang checks.
- So for someone who can't I'd accept a verbal confirmation from a second party as fulfillment of the "just prior to launch" requirement.
- But I'd also require that the second party - be he a Hang Five or ten year old kid who's never seen a glider before - to have been briefed prior (thirty seconds, a year, whatever) to the launch.
- And I'd require the following language standardization.
-- Challenge: "Unhooked."
-- Response: "Hooked." or "HOLY SHIT DON'T MOVE!!!"
- And, after all, we DO trust other people - like wire crew and tow operators - with our lives anyway.
- But I'm TOTALLY open to better ideas.
- I wonder how many mirrors Bob Show "pilots" have installed on their gliders to date.
On 2010/06/27 I took my first hang gliding lesson with Windsports and Greg DeWolf at Dockweiler Beach. See my video - HangGlidingHD.mov. This video is me flying after three months of training / lessons one day a week. I just got my H-2 rating. :-) All the guys at Windsports in Sylmar have been a huge help and great teachers.
First day flying as as Hang 2 at Dockweiler Beach - 2010/09/22
Greg DeWolf - My Hang Gliding Teacher
1:15 - "OK, I'm all checked in. Turn around (left) this way."
1:21 - "Double check (by turning right). Looks good."
1:31 - "OK."
1:33 - "Go stand over here, Greg, so I can get you down... Gets... I think all the pictures I have of you... you... silhouettes. You're behind the sun."
1:43 - "Stand over this way."
1:44 - "They're not gonna see me over here."
1:46 - "Yeah. Everyone's gotta be able to see your pretty face, ya know."
1:51 - "See the man that is turning me into hang glider pilot."
1:55 - "Yeah, that's OK. As long as you hear my voice when you're flying... telling you what to do, then that's..."
1:59 - "K. We've been distracted so let's double check."
2:02 - Foot on middle of speedbar.
2:05 - "Everything looks good."
2:09 - Glider comes up.
2:14 - "All I'm gonna do is stare at that windsock out there, be nice and relax."
2:20 - "I'm gonna go over here just a hair."
2:25 - New sequence.
2:44 - New sequence.
2:48 - "Clear!"
mcsqL7 - 2010/09/22
Hang Gliding at Dockweiler Beach California USA
On 2010/06/27 I took my first hang gliding lesson with Windsports and Greg DeWolf at Dockweiler Beach. See my video - HangGlidingHD.mov. This video is me flying after three months of training / lessons one day a week. I just got my H-2 rating. :-) All the guys at Windsports in Sylmar have been a huge help and great teachers.
Yeah, McS... All the guys at ANY school ANYWHERE are a huge help and great teachers helping and teaching what they help with and teach. But ya gotta look at WHAT they're helping with and teaching. And I'm not any more impressed with what I'm seeing here than I am anywhere else.
First day flying as as Hang 2 at Dockweiler Beach - 2010/09/22
- This - judging by the sun angle and shadows - is about 18:00 PSD, sunset is 18:49, and the sun crosses the equator at 20:09. So when it hits the water it'll be dead true west - a very wee bit from where it is now.
- Looking at waves, glider, hair, launches, windsock, landings... The wind's straight in at four - not enough to float the glider.
Greg DeWolf - My Hang Gliding Teacher
Yeah. Not a big fan of wheels. Only tandem pilot I know who's broken an arm on a tandem landing.
1:15 - "OK, I'm all checked in.
Yep McS, all checked in. Preflight inspection of your connection is DONE. NO FREAKIN' WAY anything could POSSIBLY happen between now and launch which would result in your launching unhooked.
Turn around this way."
1:21 - "Double check. Looks good."
Great! TWO checks - after twisting right AND left. Hard to beat that for safety and reassurance!
Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC
OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?
Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC
Once, just prior to launch.
Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC
I agree with that statement.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
Now you can be TWICE as certain you're hooked in when you get around to launch time.
1:31 - "OK."
1:33 - "Go stand over here, Greg, so I can get you down... Gets... I think all the pictures I have of you... you... silhouettes. You're behind the sun."
If he's behind the sun you're gonna hafta talk a little louder.
1:43 - "Stand over this way."
1:44 - "They're not gonna see me over here."
1:46 - "Yeah. Everyone's gotta be able to see your pretty face, ya know."
1:51 - "See the man that is turning me into hang glider pilot."
No. He's doing the same thing here that he did when he was working with Steve Wendt. And Steve Wendt got Bill Priday killed ten days shy of five years of this beach flight by teaching him to preflight his glider, move it into launch position, relax, stare at the windsock, and then run off the cliff based on the assumption that he properly preflighted his glider and nothing happened subsequently to cause him be unhooked.
1:55 - "Yeah, that's OK. As long as you hear my voice when you're flying... telling you what to do, then that's..."
You've signed him off on a Two now, Greg. Why does he need to hear you telling him what to do flying a Hang One task on a Hang Zero glider at a Hang Zero site in Hang Zero conditions?
1:59 - "K. We've been distracted so let's double check."
I got news for ya, McS.
- You didn't get distracted DURING your preflight inspection of the connection. You got distracted AFTER *COMPLETION* OF your preflight inspection of the connection.
- You will ALWAYS be distracted FOLLOWING the preflight inspection of and BEFORE takeoff in ANY aircraft.
- The PURPOSE of the preflight is so you can get distracted by all the subsequent crap you gotta do - moving to takeoff position, assessing conditions and traffic, communicating with crew - and have an aircraft that you're confident won't break and/or fall apart when you're getting airborne.
- If you're even more anal than I am you can repeat preflight checklist items if you're distracted in the process - but you don't repeat them when you're going into launch mode unless you've left your glider unattended or have some ghost of a reason to suspect you missed something.
- The reasons you don't needlessly repeat preflight checklist items are that:
-- the repetitions become distractions and you've got better stuff to worry about; and
-- some of these preflight inspections create opportunities to fuck something up - especially when you do them at launch position.
2:02 - Foot on middle of speedbar.
Hey Greg, ya gonna tell him not to put a foot on the middle of a speedbar so he doesn't torque it and distort the pin holes?
2:05 - "Everything looks good."
- GREAT!!! Your twelve thousand pound locking steel carabiner didn't unscrew and unhook itself in the forty second interval after Turn, Look, and Grab 2.
- So how do you know your port lead edge / cross spar junction bolt didn't unscrew itself since the last time you checked?
- When was the last time you checked that junction?
- How 'bout your sidewires? You've checked the fucking carabiner three times now. How many times have you load tested your sidewires? (I'm guessing it's the same number of times we see you load testing them in the video.)
- When was the last time you checked your leg loops? I know it was at least prior to Turn, Look, and Grab 1.
- Was it necessary to put the fucking glider down and turn around and look at and grab the carabiner to make sure it didn't unscrew and unhook itself in the previous forty second interval?
- Can you think of an easier way to check that your carabiner's still connected without putting the glider down and turning around and looking at and grabbing the carabiner?
- Something that simultaneously checks the leg loops?
- Hey Greg...
Luen Miller - 1994/11
After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about ten miles per hour or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted sixty feet to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."
I think it's totally fucking moronic to teach people to put the glider down at launch so that they can turn around, look at, and grab the carabiner to make sure it hasn't unscrewed itself and fallen off since the preflight check.
Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC
One last attempt.
We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, et cetera. Bob Gillisse redux.
A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp. When you get in line you are hooked in and ready to go. No going down for a hang check cum hook in check.
What do you think?
Or DO YOU think? Or do you just keep doing things the way you have for the past thirty years 'cause that's the way you've been doing them for the past thirty years?
- Is this bullshit the way you fly yourself? You exchange a few words with someone on the ramp then park the glider while you turn around and grab the carabiner so you can skip the hook-in check and run off the ramp thirty seconds later after picking the glider back up and waiting for a cycle?
- Does ANYBODY fly this way? I've NEVER seen this kind of bullshit on a ramp before. Why teach stupid, useless, dangerous procedures that you KNOW people won't use out in the real world?
2:09 - Glider comes up.
2:14 - "All I'm gonna do is stare at that windsock out there, be nice and relax."
Is that all you're gonna do? I guess so. You preflighted your connection to the glider for the third time time nine seconds ago so there's no possibility that you won't be disconnected at any time subsequent to that.
Hey Rob...
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
Have any of y'all given this staring and relaxing approach a shot? Sure sounds like a plan to me!
2:20 - "I'm gonna go over here just a hair."
Aren't you gonna preflight your connection again? How come repositioning Greg is a distraction but repositioning your glider isn't? It's now been over fifteen seconds, one glider pick up and trim, and two clips of dialog since your last check.
2:25 - New sequence.
- This is a flight subsequent to the one being prepped for in the previous sequence. He's given his helmet cam to someone - undoubtedly Greg - to get an outside shot of the flight.
- It's possible that his suspension is tight prior to launch but my guess is that it isn't.
- And if there had been a deliberate effort it would've been included in the edit.
- And these guys don't teach lift and tug anyway.
2:44 - New sequence.
This is UNDOUBTEDLY a continuation of the first sequence picking up right from the cut.
2:48 - "Clear!"
- The glider starts moving and we see by looking at the basetube that the glider comes up in two seconds of forward momentum.
- It's been 24 seconds since the connection was verified.
- The rating requirement says...
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
...that the verification is supposed to be made JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.
- It doesn't say JUST AFTER THE LAST DISTRACTION.
- The reason it doesn't say JUST AFTER THE LAST DISTRACTION is because distractions are known to DISTRACT people. That's why they're called "distractions".
- When people are distracted they tend not to remember things like whether or not they hooked in and whether or not they unhooked.
- I don't think you'll find ANYONE stupid enough - even in hang gliding - to dispute that point.
- The INTENT of that requirement...
George Whitehill - 1981/05
The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a SECOND check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!
If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done EVERY TIME and this is made a HABIT, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice MUST be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.
...is to establish a hook-in check performed just before committing to launch - such that delay, memory, and distraction issues are minimized or eliminated - as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit and integral part of every flight.
- No way in hell are you guys - Joe Greblo, Andy Beem, Paul Thornberry, Greg DeWolf - coming anywhere remotely close to being in line with this.
- None of you bastards are out on any of the main wires engaging in these discussions after somebody trained along the lines of your idiot noncompliant instructional approach buys the farm in the presence of a whole flock of other morons trained along the lines of your idiot noncompliant instructional approach.
- I know at least one of your graduates who can go fuck himself. Thanks zillions for taking his already submarginal wiring and shorting it out beyond any hope of getting it partially functional before turning him loose on the public.
- Twenty-four seconds is over ten times what I consider acceptable and what McS could easily have done.
- McS... You REALLY need to amend your launch sequence. For the purpose of those exercises - you got killed but good.
