instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/11 20:29:24 UTC

I have or had a pdf copy of "Thinking Fast and Slow" and found it irrelevant to hang glider safety. In general I find theoretical and academic materials to be interesting but of little value when it comes to me saving my own bacon...

That's why Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey gave us 130 pound Greenspot and God gave us Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to make sure we used it - before everybody suddenly became happy with two hundred pound Tad-O-Links anyway.

...and trying to be a better influence on my peers.

Try not saying anything the next time you see someone standing at launch...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5492/14666057035_1786a4e18c_o.jpg


...with his carabiner dangling. You can't influence "peers" on this issue unless they have some serious motivation.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/14704620965_ce30a874b7_o.png

In particular, the FAA has a fantastic publication that probably cost millions to produce and was a superb investment of your tax dollars. It's called: "The Risk Management Handbook" and is extremely on point for what we do.

Not that the FAA gives a flying fuck about what we do - and how well we adhere to the terms of the agreements we sign in order to be granted exemptions.

It's the kind of thing you can read and will immediately have a positive effect on personal hang gliding flying safety but because a couple of over-hyped and self-promoting blowhards at USHPA...

Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen...

...weren't the authors, it does not get the USHPA and HG promotion that it deserves and that YOUR life deserves.

Rather depends on specifically whose life it is you're talking about.

Here it is, free of charge:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-2.pdf
Read the parts that YOU can relate to. I find most of it interesting and relevant but that's just me.

Dave Gills - 2015/11/11 21:50:18 UTC

It's called: "The Risk Management Handbook"...

Thanks
I just ordered a paperback copy.

I have or had a pdf copy of "Thinking Fast and Slow"...

It sounds interesting and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

I'll bet Tom Lyon would find the chapters on slow thinking totally fascinating.

Davis Straub - 2015/11/11 22:27:33 UTC

Have read both books, which are extremely interesting.

Super, Davis. I've read lotsa your stuff and find it extremely interesting.

Steve Morris - 2015/11/12 04:30:41 UTC
Sunnyvale

What's even more pernicious than this single-pilot vicious cycle...

Very insightful. This topic needs more open discussion...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...it's been a huge factor in many accidents I've witnessed yet it is rarely discussed.

Speaking of which, do we even discuss accidents openly anymore (as a community)?

Your "community" sucks bigtime, Steve.

It seems like any open discussion is silenced immediately...

And check out what goes on in the Davis Cult Community:

...for many...

...fake...

...reasons: minimize speculation...

How can MINIMIZING SPECULATION be considered a REASON to lock a topic? Speculation is the most valuable tool we have to reasonably fill in the gaps we get when the motherfuckers responsible for a crash withhold and/or shred the reports and swallow the video cards. And even when/if we get an honest ethical accounting of an incident - Markus Schaedler fer instance - there can be gaps which with we NEED to deal with speculation to provide a most likely scenario.

Ya wanna have a policy for minimizing speculation then lobby to have Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney restored to The Jack Show so he can order you what to use, do, and think.

...respect for the family...

BULLSHIT. Any family worth shit wants to know EXACTLY what happened and prevent it happening to some other family's member. And fuck any and every family in the not worth shit on this issue - if such a category actually exists.

...fear of influencing a lawsuit...

There ya go. 'Specially a totally valid one in the right direction.

...loss of site insurance or site access...

Which we're now in the process of losing anyway BECAUSE of decades of brutal suppression of discussing "accidents" openly.

...deference to an official accident report...

Snow job.

...etc.. I don't think any of this helps.

Ya don't? What's influencing this perception of yours?

I prefer the old days where everything was openly discussed.

Then shoot a few of the motherfuckers who've hijacked this sport from the recreational pilot. PM me for a list of a dozen or so high priority names.

There are fatal accidents that I still have no idea what happened even though I followed their discussion on internet forums.

Followed them on THIS internet forum?

How is anyone supposed to learn from these tragic mistakes and misfortunes?

Mostly by reading the official reports and paying close attention to what they're very conspicuously NOT saying. The job gets astoundingly easy after you've developed that mindset.

2015/11/12 14:37:28 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Joe Faust

Nic Welbourn - 2015/11/12 05:12:56 UTC
Canberra

Agreed, the best way to learn is from the mistakes of others.

1. Go ahead, Nic. Tell us some of the stuff you've been learning. Pick something from this year's bloodbath that any total idiot shouldn't have had down solid well before he got to 1.5 level.

2. Name some stupid lethal mistake that Kelly Harrison had an opportunity to make on his last tandem thrill ride flight and didn't.

As for the cause of the number of fatalities this particular year, law of averages perhaps. Or maybe because there are less and less critical discussions about incidents, therefore less learning about things that kill us?

How 'bout leadership, training, equipment?

Paul Hurless - 2015/11/12 07:00:29 UTC

Complacency is still the main reason for what we have been seeing this year.

Yeah? Cite a fatality this year that can be attributed to COMPLACENCY. Bullshit. NOBODY's COMPLACENT about this game. Nobody who's actually under the glider anyway.

It's not anything new.

And having total dickheads such as yourself running around loose in the sport sure ain't helping much.

The numbers have always fluctuated some, but when they have been low for a while it looks even worse when we see them go up in a relatively short time.

Pilots pushing the envelope and getting away with it for a while until it catches up with them is one example of the big C. Another indication is the refusal to recognize poor or deteriorating basic skills.

Yeah, get out there and perfect that flare timing, people of varying ages.

Pilots need to always be their own worst critics. Never be satisfied with just getting into the air and back down again.

Make sure you nail that old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ every time - regardless of the cost.

Make an honest effort to ensure you that you do it as well as it can be done.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5322/10132306074_13fab65d5e_o.jpg

And if something doesn't seem to feel right...

'Cept, of course, for foot landing. That's NEVER gonna feel right but ya gotta keep working on perfecting it at all costs. If ya don't it's a virtual certainty that you'll be permanently maimed or killed in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

...ask other pilots for their opinions and input about what they see you doing.

No shortage of those on The Jack Show. 'Cept when a Joe Julik, Arys Moorhead, Bertrand Delacroix, Jesse Fulkersin, Karen Carra gets killed, anyway.

It's easy for a bad habit to creep in unnoticed if you don't make the effort to safeguard against it.

And it's even easier to get programmed for performing really bad stupid habits as your ultimate tickets to safe and competent flying.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Comet - 2015/11/12 07:48:44 UTC
Washington, DC

First, I find the title of this thread offensively sensationalistic - makes it sound like we are committing suicide.

I agree. It's an insult to the memories of top-notch pilots like Rafi Lavin who spent their entire long hang gliding careers meticulously doing their sidewire load tests the instant they got airborne every single flight.

Secondly, the OP comes up with an unverified number of twenty fatalities.

Yeah, fuck him. And anybody else named OP as well. I only get FIFTEEN. And one of those was just some ratty little eleven year old kid just along for the ride, never touched the controls, no fuckin' way he can be counted as a pilot or one of "we" - so really just FOURTEEN.

What is the source of this number?

I dunno. How come you can't pull up the list and give us a solid number? These lives didn't actually matter enough to register with you?

Is it only hang gliders, or does it include paragliders (many PG accidents are erroneously reported as HG, even on this forum).

Not for long.

Does it include foreign accidents as well (this is a world-wide forum and it's easy to add foreign crashes in to one's totals).

Yeah, fuck foreigners. We're only worried about AMERICAN pilots. That brings the total down to NINE. Tempest in a fuckin' teapot. How's the weekend shaping up?

Have some incidents been reported twice (I've seen the same accident repotted on this forum under separate posts with different titles).

And some of these fatalities even get repotted on The Davis Show as well. Let's make the total FIVE. Now we're down to a pretty normal year.

There have historically been a few gruesome ghouls on hanggliding.org who have demonstrated a perverse fascination with fatalities, reviving and rehashing old accident threads over and over.

Don't worry, they're all banned now - often for being or suspected of being T** at K*** S******. No fuckin' way we'd have been able to hash new accident threads with those assholes attempting to resolve the ancient history crap.

I would prefer a less sensational thread title and verified data.

So what's stopping you from starting one? Maybe call it "2015 minor unpleasantness" - and make it clear that discussion of any incidents prior to the beginning of this calendar year will not be tolerated.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/11/12 11:27:06 UTC

Sorry. My intention was not to offend anyone, sorry if you were.

Fuck that asshole, Robert. And fuck you too if your intention isn't to offend anyone. The Jack Show is OOZING with total douchebags in serious and constant need of major offending. You've got Kapitol Kite Klub people on that wire at least watching posts acknowledging Karen's death being deleted and doing nothing about it and at most deleting or supporting deleting them. Quite possibly one or two of the assholes who were on her crew, contributed to the fatal launch, and have totally clammed up to keep their asses covered to the maximum extents possible.

I find if I think about this subject with the seriousness that it really deserves I am emotionally overwhelmed by the death, and sorrow, and the suffering of loved ones, and I can't think about it rationally.

That's probably why Karen never participated in any discussions about serious incidents and preventions of similar ones.

In order to think about it in a useful way, I need to force the magnitude of the tragedy out of my mind.

I think you need to do the precise opposite. But proper Jack Show protocol is to click a few weepy smilies, say something about the family and friends an the eternal thermal now being ridden, and arrange to take a flight in the latest fuckup's memory and honor on Saturday.

The result may be a flippant tone. I apologize for that.

Tell him to go fuck himself. You're totally clueless on this issue - as well as critical and relevant personal flying issues - but your motivation is legitimate.

...the number 20 was a rough estimate based on the 15 HG+PG fatalities reported in the August 28 USHPA safety reminder + 2 that I know of since then + an unknown number in the remainder of the year.

Fuck PG fatalities. We've got our own problems to worry about. And damn near zero PG fatalities are the least bit relevant.

Even if there are no more, and the total stands at 17, I think it's very unlikely to be just a statistical anomaly.

That's ALL it is.

I did investigate the possibility that this could just be a statistical anomaly. I used an excel spreadsheet to run a numerical simulation of a 10,000 pilot population with an average mortality rate of 5 per year. I figured each pilot would have a random 1 in 2000 chance of dying in any given year and ran a 10,000 pilot population for 2000 years. The worst year I got was 15. Based on this, I do not believe this year just a statistical anomaly, I believe there is an underlying cause that is either affecting the decisions we make or changing the outcome of those decisions on a statistically significant level. If anyone's interested in checking my methodology, I can clean up that spreadsheet and attach it to a post this evening, and/or you can make your own to check my results.

Don't bother. How would that be of the least value in addressing the basic nuts and bolts issues that have been killing people this year - the same ways they were getting killed, in fuckin' droves, when I entered the sport over 35 years ago?

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I'll make a point to read those and get back to this thread with my thoughts on them over the next couple of months.

C'mon Jack. Aren't you gonna lock this thread down? How much good is it doing to support your Living Room's main stated goal of promoting the sport?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

zamuro - 2015/11/12 12:14:55 UTC
New York

It is interesting that when it comes to discussing probable causes of accidents the pressure from the forum is always to stop the discussion before any of the original questions is addressed.

Why do you think that is? Maybe you should address the Jack Show's Board Of Directors and see if there's anything that can be done to accomplish something positive with some of these.

Perhaps because it is very hard to get statistically significant numbers within the small HG pilots population...

Yeah, but look at the really great effort the small HG pilots population has put in to generate useful statistics this year. Not even u$hPa has been able to keep the lid down very effectively lately.

...or because everyone feels very strongly about their own explanations.

Yeah, try Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney for that one. Physically impossible for fishing line with a track record one percent as long as 130 pound Greenspot's to cause anything more serious than an inconvenience.

IMHO the original question posed by Robert (whether age is becoming a factor) is relevant.

Bullshit.

What is the mean age of the active HG population now?

A lot higher than it was during the four minute and seven second duration of Arys Moorhead's first and last tandem instructional truck tow.

Isn't in the 50's? I may feel very young in my mid 50's now but certainly I am not in the same physical shape when I was in my late teens & 20's when I learned to fly.

Who the fuck cares? Show me one of this year's fatalities that had the least goddam thing to do with age, strength, condition, reflexes.

So is it possibly to get a good count of the number of fatalities per year, participation & age distribution to see if there is any trend??

It was back when Robert V. Wills and Doug Hildreth were working in their capacities as Accident Review Committee Chairmen. Now you've got a nonpilot attorney in total control of the show highly motivated to shred everything he can get his sleazy hands on. You put a financially interested individual totally in charge of an important component of a commercial enterprise it's a fuckin' no brainer that he's gonna act in a manner that the individuals who see the most benefit will all be himself.

Patrick Halfhill - 2015/11/12 14:15:34 UTC
Pittsburgh

Suck my dick, Pat.

I am more curious about how current most of the pilots were.

More current than they'll ever be again.

I see many poor launches everywhere that I go. (a few of them mine)

Meaning FOOT launches, right Pat? Funny we virtually never hear anything about poor dolly and platform launches. But stay away from towing because all that extra complexity makes tow launching much more dangerous than the kinda ramp stuff Karen was doing Sunday afternoon.

It seems that many of us are flying less and launching and landing even fewer times a year.

But keep working on your foot landings and flare timing. The closer we get to the ends of our flying careers the more likely we're gonna be making that inevitable landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place at the end of our next flight.

Breaking down and not flying for a bunch of reasons. I caught myself taking a falcon to the hill last week because the forecast was for light winds. Truth is I should be comfortable launching my T2 in any conditions. That was one less bit of practice that I could have gotten.

And the whole reason you got into this sport in the first place was to practice foot launches and landings.

Are biwingual pilots doing the same thing?

Nah, they usually get killed on their paragliders before age becomes anything of an issue.

Flying their PG half of the time and getting that many less launches? In I flew almost daily for 3 weeks in june from a mountain site and my launches were way better than this year...

We've got ONE launch fatality and ZERO landing fatalities. (Jesse Fulkersin wasn't killed landing. He was killed APPROACHING - quite probably 'cause he was configured, configuring, or gearing for foot landing.) Karen was doing an Assisted Windy Cliff Launch. That's pretty much independent of currency and has damn near everything to do with proper positioning and trimming of the glider on the pad.

...when work has basically made me a tow pilot.

Yeah. Like I was saying. Launching is a total nonissue towing and foot landing in a tow environment is - by definition - a dangerous chance you totally ELECT to take. See Joe Julik, 2014/09/29, Whitewater for illustration of this point.

Brad Barkley - 2015/11/12 14:16:40 UTC

I remember just a few years back, the magazine routinely ran accident reports, discussing what happened, what is known about the accident, and probable causes.

You haven't been around in the sport a quarter of what you'd have needed to have been in order to be able to recall the days of solid crash reporting.

Today it feels like we all live under a "cone of silence."

Yeah, how 'bout that? And what are your buddies at Manquin, Ridgely, Kapitol doing about it?

I know insurance rates are a worry, but saving pilots' lives ought to trump that.

Generally speaking... Yes. But in your case I'd go with the insurance.

2015/11/12 14:44:45 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Joe Faust
2015/11/12 16:10:25 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Mark Webber

Bob Grant - 2015/11/12 14:47:45 UTC
London, Ontario

Accident Reports

I realize that you are talking fatality numbers for this year and I am wondering if there is also an increase in non fatal accidents this year?

Me too. So have you read Mark G. Forbes' explanation of the u$hPa SOPs regarding the handling of "accident" reports? The only reason we hear about the fatals is 'cause u$hPa doesn't have the capability of suppressing them.

Raymond Caux - 2015/11/12 15:58:01 UTC
Göteborg, Sweden

Thanks NMERider for the reference. As I'm not allowed to post direct links yet, here are more references, sorry for the inconvenience and the advertisement: fai(dot)org > sports > hang gliding & paragliding > our sport > safety > articles.
Raymond Caux - CIVL safety officer

Keep up the great work, Raymond Caux - CIVL safety officer.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Yosoytupadre - 2015/11/12 16:30:31 UTC

To sum up what I think everybody is saying...

Collectively we've taken lots of risks in recent years that have not resulted in as many fatalities and injuries as they might have.

Nobody has any fucking idea what the injuries are. They get covered up whenever possible. And did you see how long it took to get the lid off the Karen Carra?

In essence, we were lucky and not smart.

Like all you motherfuckers who refuse to ever do a hook-in check at gunpoint.

This has emboldened us to continue taking these risks and it has also increased our willingness to take on additional risks - thinking, in essence, that we have not yet found our personal limits.

This way of thinking has caught up with us and, collectively, we need to dial it back or this is the new normal.

That may be what everybody's thinking and saying - but it has total shit to do with what's happening.

Fly smart friends,
Fred

Good freakin' luck.

Alan Deikman - 2015/11/12 16:50:58 UTC

I am not saying you are wrong...

I am.

...but I could not get behind this statement without a closer look at the data.

'Nuther fuckin' gruesome ghoul on hanggliding.org demonstrating a perverse fascination with fatalities, reviving and rehashing old accident threads over and over.

I don't have access to it right now but here is what I would like to see if I were analyzing it:

1. Categorize the fatalities between pilot proficiency: Unrated, noob, intermediate, and sky god. Depending on what group they fall in you would draw much different conclusions regarding what is going on.

2. Categorize the fatalities by weather conditions. In most aviation there is a big correlation and between weather and accidents.

3. Sort out the fatalities by region. I hate to say it but is there some school or group of them that is turning out pilots not prepared for the sites, conditions and ops they are flying?

I am assuming that HG structural failure is not a significant factor -- that should be checked.

Any way you cut it a big spike if fatalities is not a good thing. But if you want to find out why you have to look at critical details.

Sorry, but this is mostly bullshit. We're just barely into double digits worldwide - no more than the average hang glider jockey IQ. We don't need to feed all this data into a supercomputer and wait for three days while it crunches the numbers to identify patterns. We'd need HUNDREDS of fatals to be able to start doing anything like this and have some faint hope of getting the least useful information from it.

2015/01/24 - Trevor Scott
Crashed into the mountain. Aussie pigfuckers decided to give us ZERO info beyond what we saw on the TV news.

2015/03/27 - Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead
Fringe tow activity. Massively criminally negligent pedocide.

2015/05/09 - Markus Schaedler
Tumbled in thermal turbulence.

2015/05/17 - Scott Trueblood
Newbie. Flew into the fuckin' mountain.

2015/06/20 - Bertrand Delacroix
Something broke on the glider. Ridgely pigfuckers put a total lid on it which suggests it was something they could and should've caught checking him out at the head of the launch line.

2015/06/26 - Trey Higgins
Navy fighter jet instructor. Scratching low. Stalled.

2015/07/23 - Javier Yunquera
Harness and parachute suspension disintegrated.

2015/08/23 - Rafi Lavin
Did his sidewire load test just after launch and detected an issue.

2015/08/24 - Craig Pirazzi
Got rotored on his way to launch and dragged off the cliff 'cause neither he nor anyone else thought he needed anyone on a wing.

2015/09/24 - Thibault Demange
Blown aerobatics in turbulence.

2015/10/02 - Michael Bayliss
Newbie. Unwitnessed. Probably stalled downwind back into the beach.

2015/10/09 - Darren Rickertt
XC comp pilot. Maybe he tumbled, maybe he pushed his luck too low.

2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin
Came into the landing strip too slow and clipped a tree.

2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
Windy cliff launch. She and her crew failed to position the glider out into the turbulent jet stream with the nose down.

So what are the patterns, trends that set us up for this year and what are we gonna get serious about and fix? Pilot proficiency, weather, region, school, structural failure? Any new and improved ways of killing ourselves that we simply didn't know about forty years ago? Anything from any of you "always students" assholes?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Alan Deikman - 2015/11/12 16:50:58 UTC

I am not saying you are wrong but I could not get behind this statement without a closer look at the data.

Just gave ya one.

I don't have access to it right now...

Yes ya do.

...but here is what I would like to see if I were analyzing it:

1. Categorize the fatalities between pilot proficiency: Unrated, noob, intermediate, and sky god.

And, moving up from there, a Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Depending on what group they fall in you would draw much different conclusions regarding what is going on.

What's the difference between an Unrated unhooked launch and a Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney unhooked launch?

2. Categorize the fatalities by weather conditions.

No known fatalities or serious crashes in hurricanes. Therefore - no doubt, obviously, everybody knows - flying in hurricanes is...

In most aviation there is a big correlation and between weather and accidents.

So what exactly does aviation have to do with hang gliding?

3. Sort out the fatalities by region. I hate to say it but is there some school or group of them that is turning out pilots not prepared for the sites, conditions and ops they are flying?

Name a school or group that DOES turn out "pilots" prepared for the sites, conditions, and ops they are flying. And if you can come up with anything then tell me why they aren't participating in this discussion.

I am assuming that HG structural failure is not a significant factor -- that should be checked.

Yeah. The gliders go through certification testing. Any thoughts on why aerotow releases DON'T? Of how much use is a glider that can take six Gs in its sleep when it's stuck on tow while being locked out and slammed in by the three quarter G focal point of its safe towing system?

Any way you cut it a big spike if fatalities is not a good thing.

Depends a good bit on the names on the list, doesn't it? Matt Taber, Steve Kroop, Tracy Tillman, Davis Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Bart Weghorst, Bo Hagewood, Jim Gaar, Sam Kellner... Tell me how that would be a BAD thing.

But if you want to find out why you have to look at critical details.

And if you want to look at critical details you've got to get to them before u$hPa's accident investigation machinery gets ahold of and shreds them.

NMERider - 2015/11/12 16:52:10 UTC

Hi Raymond,
Thanks for the reference and joining the conversation.
http://www.fai.org/civl-our-sport/safety/457-civl/civl-safety/40259-safety-articles

NMERider - 2015/11/12 16:55:53 UTC

Yosoytupadre - 2015/11/12 16:30:31 UTC

To sum up what I think everybody is saying...

Hi Fred,
That is a very good summary. I wish it weren't true but the rate of serious accidents over the past several years that have gone unreported that could have just as easily been fatal is far higher than most people know.

No shit.

NMERider - 2015/11/12 16:59:14 UTC

Bob Grant - 2015/11/12 14:47:45 UTC

I realize that you are talking fatality numbers for this year and I am wondering if there is also an increase in non fatal accidents this year?

Hi Bob,
The total accident rate may have actually gone down or been the same. It has been my experience that most accidents go unreported and that the rate of serious but non-fatal accidents has been significantly higher than people believe over the past several years. We are only now paying the Piper.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/12 17:10:11 UTC

Brad Barkley - 2015/11/12 14:16:40 UTC

I remember just a few years back, the magazine routinely ran accident reports, discussing what happened, what is known about the accident, and probable causes. Today it feels like we all live under a "cone of silence." I know insurance rates are a worry, but saving pilots' lives ought to trump that.

We don't have to use the USHPA accident database.

So how else are we gonna find out that the leading cause of death in these crashes was the suffering of fatal injuries?

There is little difference between UK accidents and US accidents.

'Cept when there's a midair head-on it's the fault of the guy who dodged to the right.

Nearly everything you ever wanted to read can be found thanks to the BHPA.

Fuck BHPA.

http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/safety/formal_investigations/
http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/safety/informal_investigations/
http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/safety/annual_analysis/

I have published this and everything else I have already posted on this thread many times previously over the past few years and pretty much everyone ignored it.

I published stuff all over the fuckin' web on the standard aerotow weak link and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and just got pissed all over, banned from most of the forums on the planet - not to mention flying sites, and never apologized to.

Now that we are getting killed in droves, suddenly the things I have been crying into the wilderness have become topical.

How very odd. Shortly after Zack Marzec was fatally inconvenienced in droves and Team Kite Strings kicked Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's ass into permanent oblivion Davis locked down all the relevant discussions.

Let's be honest about this--we are living in unprecedented times of self-contentedness and narcissism. Some of the worst influences on our sport have been the unbelievably conceited and insulting self-appointed gurus of safety.

No...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so f*** off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

...shit.

I know members...

...and ex members...

...of The Org whose outright arrogance and belligerence to others has been a contributing factor to other pilots' needless fatalities or serious accidents.

Nothing quite like needless fatalities and serious accidents for getting points across.

I know others who are so full of themselves that their self-appointed Gospels of truth have been directly contributory to fatal accidents.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

What has happened as a result of all these Type-A...

For Asshole.

...personalities trying to dominate everyone else's thinking and acting is that most or all meaningful conversation has been snuffed out and pilots who were truly interested in seeking help became silent for fear of being publicly ridiculed and ostracized.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7916/31540774647_f71ed7cd5e_o.png
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/FTHI.pdf

The things I have witnessed in this sport since I returned in 2008 have been sickening. But that is not relevant. What is relevant is that we need to focus on what has been going right and less on what has been going wrong.

Plus focusing on what's been going right will be so much less time consuming and tedious than focusing on what's been going wrong. We've currently got over eight and a half thousand posts over here on Kite Strings - most of which deal with what's going wrong.

We need to learn about the pilots who fly a lot and fly very fully but don't get badly injured or killed. We have heard from one such group in the past. The Wills Wing factory test pilots. These guys fly a tremendous amount and don't have accidents.

- And:

-- publish total crap in their owners' manuals on how to land their gliders and protect against unhooked launches

-- specify that their gliders aren't designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed while knowing bloody goddam well that damn near all of them WILL be towed and most of them will be getting airborne exclusively by being towed

-- never lift fingers to help any of the few of us who have their shit together to do anything about the ongoing train wreck the sport's experiencing

- Pros running zillions of sleds at AJX to check new gliders ready to ship five days a week ain't the same as weekend recreational at the full range of skill and experience levels at lotsa different sites and XC comp flying. Those Wills Wing guys are pretty much immune from all of the issues involved in this years crop of fatals.

There are other groups and individuals who fly a lot and fly very, very well but they don't crash or launch unhooked.

I can tell exactly who's never gonna launch unhooked.

Their side wires don't break at launch.

Ditto for that one.

What are these pilots doing differently?

Haven't heard about any AT crashes since everybody suddenly became happy with Tad-O-Links.

This is where the rubber meets the road.

Oh. So your car has WHEELS. How's that work out for you when you need to stop

Sorry about the lament but I stand behind everything I said.

2015/11/12 17:30:09 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Heli1

http://www.flyfunston.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1733
Wires

Doug Doerfler - 2015/09/21 23:37 UTC

Did you notice the moron in the video rubs his wire on a big rock when he steps on it, then the second time actually comments to make sure the rock isn't sharp

abrasion on a flat rock can still be pretty bad for wires

Flyingseb - 2015/11/12 20:38:54 UTC
Brittany

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the fact that everyone now can watch wonderful vids of wonderful hangglider pilots doing wonderful things.

And, when we're lucky, not so wonderful things. Then we can see frame by frame what's actually going on and why.

Today more than ever, we can see actions we couldn't have saw from first account.

I strongly believe that it gives many pilots the false impression that flying is easy, and performing risky maneuvers is more fun.

Rubbish.

A video is also a pale impersonation of what the reality really is.

When people get into the air they have really great grips on what reality is - 'specially when they're not quite sure of the best way to deal with it.

Take jumping of a cliff, in water, as an example. A 30 feet cliff looks so easy to jump off, not scaring at all, from a Gopro point of view. Now go for it, for real. Not so friendly, when you first experience the view on top of the cliff, by yourself.

Yeah. Like I just said.

Still, you can push yourself: "I know it's feasible, I've seen so many vids of that kind of jumps..."

Got any accounts of people actually doing that? 'Sides, thirty feet into the water isn't gonna kill anybody. Just hurts a lot if you do it wrong.

Hanggliding has gotten so much more exposure to the average Joe, I think, thanks YT and web medias.

Yeah, that would explain the huge surge in student pilots with which the sport is currently attempting to cope.

Making it more appalling...

Freudian slip or second language issue?

...for people who have no clues on meteorologic or basic aerodynamic facts.

Like hang glider pilots who think that their kites are pulled up under tow pressure? Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

I have seen it personally, as probably many of you.

Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

In other sports as well.

Gawd I hope not.

In my opinion, more than ever, hanggliding is now not a matter of passion for flying, for most people, but passion for resembling to people flying in those vids and being cool.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

This is exaggerated even more by the fact that now, everything should be learned and mastered fast, in our speed-driven society.

Flare timing?

Then go to next cool stuff.

Spot landing?

What if we simply have developed too much our visual perception, in detriment to all the other senses, completely absent from those video?

This is why the tandem thrill ride was invented.

We then rely on our visual memories to acknowledge what is possible, and what not. People are not even able to estimate wind force.

I let go of the nose wires at the 1982 Spectacular when some clueless CHGA twit yelled "Clear!". The wind was scary strong and I'd been advising competitors to move way down the dune (South Bowl) and they were listening. This total idiot arrived at launch oozing know-it-all and gave the word at the peak of a horrifying surge. I thought, "OK. Pilot In Command...". She rocketed straight up, stalled, turned downwind, crashed into a glider parked on top, walked away.

I believe the overflow of visual streams on web medias has taken us off guard, and we still don't have the education to process this and transpose to our current life.
Many persons don't let their mind decide by themselves, they rely on the fact that is has been done before, therefore is should be fine.
And it would make a great vid!

So show us the great vid that supports your opinion on this issue.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/12 21:45:02 UTC

Flyingseb - 2015/11/12 20:38:54 UTC

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the fact that everyone now can watch wonderful vids of wonderful hangglider pilots doing wonderful things.

The fatal accidents are mostly experienced pilots and not noobs trying to emulate what they see others doing in videos.

Like doing tight patterns and staying prone on the basetube into ground effect.

I used to get complaints from instructors about their students asking to be taught what they saw me doing in my videos. Usually this was X/C flying and I was making it look too easy and too safe. But the reality is that there was never one shred of evidence that anyone ever tried to fly X/C based on what they watched in my own or anyone else's X/C video and got injured.

Nah. They're all too busy PRACTICING to fly XC and safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...getting injured, crippled, paralyzed, killed.

Although I do know a few pilots who did get in over their heads when flying X/C before they were ready and had accidents that could have been a lot more serious.

A lot more serious than Shannon Moon, Joe Julik, Jesse Fulkersin?

But the really serious and fatal accidents are happening right at pilots' home sites and often at launch or in or near the LZ.

Oh. You mean where people ACTUALLY FLY?

My own my serious accident was in my home LZ in perfect weather conditions from a very dumb error. In fact the primary error that caused me to end up with a neck injury was complacency. I was complacent during an experimental equipment test when I should have been on high alert and flew into the ground because I was flying based on muscle memory and not on the actual decent rate.

And that was a pretty decent rate if ever I heard of one.

So Robert asked whether there was any 'common' [factor] and I'm going to have to agree with whoever first mentioned complacency in this thread.

Paul Hurless. Really hard to go wrong agreeing with that whoever.

But I don't want people to lose motivation to get better educated and trained in managing risk.

Just perfect your flare timing and always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less - the more appropriate the better. You'll never get into too much trouble that way.

If we were 'managing' risk then we wouldn't be complacent about risk or risk management.

Maybe we should back off a bit and...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...IDENTIFY risk before we start getting too aggressive about managing it.

I have wanted to use my video making and narration to produce a series of narrated X/C flight in which I talk about as many aspects of decision making and management of risk as I can recall from the flight and can think of as I'm narrating or scripting it.

Make sure it includes a sidewire stomp and a lift and tug - then gear up for all the complaints from instructors about their students asking to be taught what they saw you doing in your videos. And don't miss the opportunity to tell Tom Galvin to suck your dick.

Right now, anyone can play or download Gavin McClurg's excellent podcast series in which several renowned PG pilots talk openly about risks.

Like releasing the coolest tandem thrill ride video ever made...
http://www.kitestrings.org/topic83.html
...and having Bob scream bloody murder about child endangerment and u$hPa permanently revoke your tandem ticket.

In particular, I found episode 8 very enlightening:

http://www.cloudbasemayhem.com/podcast-episode-8-nick-greece-and-progression/

Robert Kesselring - 2015/11/12 22:16:47 UTC

All of the ideas mentioned so far are probably contributing factors, but I'm not convinced any one of them (including mine) is the big factor that caused a 300% - %400 jump in one year. Complacency is a natural human tendency, it seems like that would have been a more or less consistent problem since the 70's.

Damn near every problem in this sport has been more or less consistent since the Seventies. More whenever u$hPa's been able to figure out how.

Average pilot age and retirement, and video-inspired-stupidity...

http://vimeo.com/4945693


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/14267100052_9ba5bb5bdc_o.png
15-3703

...seem like things that would cause a gradual increase in accidents and fatalities, not a sudden increase.

All of these are things we need to consider when thinking about how to shrink the target on our backs, but I still feel like there's a LARGE, unknown factor that needs to be identified.

Yeah, assholes droning on about underlying causes of statistical blips instead of looking at individual incidents to see what specifically was done wrong in each case.

NMERider - 2015/11/12 22:42:22 UTC

There is no large, unknown factor such as a heretofore undiscovered viral/bacterial outbreak or an act of God.

I dunno... I was sure thanking God for the Zack Marzec. Never before in the history of hang gliding have so many total assholes been totally and permanently discredited and shut up by so few. And everything had to line up perfectly for that one to happen. Just an inevitable random event? I don't think so.

I stated before that nothing has changed in pilot behavior over the past seven years that I returned to flying...

I dunno... Sure are a lot more people happy with Tad-O-Links and a lot fewer with 130 pound Greenspot. Stopped hearing about people leaving tow parks on stretchers after being severely inconvenienced.

...and that is exactly what complacency does to people. It results in people doing the same things in the same way as always even if they have been doing it wrong the entire time.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

The more pilots get away with failing to actively manage risk then the more likely they are to be complacent about it in future flights.

How 'bout we ELIMINATE the risks we should've decades ago before getting into the tedium of managing them?

Eventually it all comes tumbling down.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

Sometimes it's gradual and sometimes it's a deluge. Right now we are having a deluge. That is all.

Fifteen lousy fatals worldwide. It's a blip.

Would you like to know the really bad part?

Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney are still around?

I'll tell you right now whether you want to hear it or not. The really bad part is that statistically speaking the fatalities are more than likely to come to a sudden stop. For no reason. When that happens, pilots will attribute the decline in their demise to some causal factor that they will then take credit for.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

They will utter such nonsense as, "You know, we must have discovered that LARGE, unknown factor that needed to be identified..." and will proceed to behave exactly the same way they did leading up to the recent surge in fatalities.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

Meanwhile, there will be little if any measurable improvement in the active management of risk.

And pretty the same number of serious crashes. Nobody will have hit quite hard enough to do the total trick, just hard enough to have their lives totally and permanently destroyed, everybody will wish and pray for their speedy and full recoveries and quickly forget they ever existed.

At some point in the future the cycle of needless and preventable fatal accidents will repeat itself.

NO! If we keep on doing the same things over and over we'll average out to the same results?

Your well-intentioned and misguided search for some easy-to-swallow 'truth' is strikingly emblematic of the root causes of the very folly that it seeks to end.

A-fuckin'-men.

Isn't that ironic?

I'm sorry Robert, but any so-called hidden factor is a lie. There are no hidden factors in the recent string of deaths. There are only factors that we are blinded from seeing yet they are in plain view for anyone willing to see.

And watch what happens to you when you start saying that the emperor has no clothes and try to get something fixed.

[<BS>]

Maybe we should back off a bit and IDENTIFY risk before we start getting too aggressive about managing it.

Exactly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk

Risk perception is the subjective judgment people make about the severity and/or probability of a risk, and may vary person to person. Any human endeavor carries some risk, but some are much riskier than others.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Steve Forslund - 2015/11/12 22:48:16 UTC

This seems to be the same as ever. Over the years it has fluctuated with a number of good years and then a bad year. I doubt the attitude or behavior is changing year to year just a small sample group that takes a number of years to get any idea of the fatality rate.

Not sure how Jonathon has become the poster boy of risk management (well self appointed) as he seems to thrive on being deep and low even on good days.

Get fucked, Steve.

NMERider - 2015/11/12 23:23:16 UTC

Steve,
The better we are at managing risk, the more we can enjoy activities that involve risk without suffering needless and avoidable injury.
BTW - I fly deep and low even on good days because I'm really not that skilled a pilot.

Looking forward to that barley pop as you promised,
JD

I'd make a point of not treating that motherfucker with the least amount of civility.

flybop - 2015/11/12 23:41:37 UTC
Livingston, Montana

I want to commend Robert for starting this discussion. Every serious accident does effect all of us. Every fatal accident even more so.

Not necessarily in a negative way.

Both on a personal level and how each accident has the potential to put existing and future sites at risk.

Personally I absolutely felt some hesitation after hearing of yet another fatal accident this year. Ultimately I decided to rededicate myself to being a safe(r) pilot.

By changing what?

While I am not familiar with the big picture of the most recent accident I do know that there have been fatal accidents both recently and in the past several years that can be attributed to currency, or a lack of it. I can think of some serious accidents that a lack of being current played a role.

Name them.

In general aviation there are strict standards for currency.

In u$hPa it's totally an issue of sending the motherfuckers more money.

In hang gliding we are not regulated (Thankfully) externally.

- Yes. Thankfully. So how's that been working out lately?
- Bullshit. You've wound up with the worst kind of regulation imaginable.

As a self regulated group of pilots...

Oh.
- A second ago you said we weren't regulated. But now we're SELF regulated. So what's that mean? Got any examples?
- You're a group of PILOTS. Thanks for clarifying that issue for me.

...we need to also be self disciplined.

Nail that spot no-stepper on that old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ - every time, no matter what. And never say anything negative about any u$hPa operative or insider. We don't wanna go nuts with this self discipline thing.

Be honest: Can you think of a fatal or serious accident that happened when an "experienced" pilot went down while attempting to fly after a year or two or three or more away?

Not really. But I have no problem whatsoever coming up with skygods who bought farms in the course of nonstop flying their brains out. So if there are any actual examples of noncurrency disasters they're statistically insignificant. Flying a hang glider is pretty much the same as riding a bicycle.

How often did this pilot not take a trip to a training hill...

- For what purpose? Lemme guess.

- Fuck training hills. They're disproportionally dangerous. You're foot launching, getting a few seconds of flying time, then going into landing mode.

...step down to a ss wing, take that first flight in benign sledder conditions?

Boooooring.

More than a few come to mind for me.

Well great then. We'll happily take your word for it and not trouble you to cite any actual examples.

So then, it seems that we can all take steps to reduce accidents by addressing the two big "Cs'": Currency and Complacency. Seems they often go hand in hand. Sometimes they are one and the same.

Rubbish.

Steve Baran - 2015/11/12 23:50:31 UTC
Chattaroy

Bob Grant - 2015/11/12 14:47:45 UTC

Accident Reports

I realize that you are talking fatality numbers for this year and I am wondering if there is also an increase in non fatal accidents this year?

As a very small sample size (like 1) I'd say yes. I blew a launch this summer and more/less totalled my wing.

Think seriously about giving up towing and restricting yourself to foot launching off slopes. Much less complex and therefore much easier and safer. And you fly a U2 160, right? Didn't you read the fuckin' manual where it says that Wills Wing gliders aren't designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed? You have only yourself to blame, dude.

I walked (limped) away but it could have been MUCH worse. Main reason ... desire to fly outweighed being prepared to fly and launch condition decision making.

What about your driver? Didn't he have any significant role in this incident and the decision making that led up to it?

I suppose that's the main reason there are a fair amount of unwanted pregnancies - desire for something overrides common sense. I don't know just how best to control that end of things though. When we desire something bad enough we bend all sorts of 'rules' - or outright break them.

Got any videos of yourself doing a hook-in check?

We might even do it as a group - such as all pilots on launch cutting corners to get into special air.

Doubling up their Rooney Links, for example. Pure insanity.

I learned a good lesson and I'm going at things differently - working on some basic launching skills...

Launching skills? Like what? Dontchya just lie down on the cart or dolly and lift off when ya get up to speed?

...as well as self-assessment checks.

Don't forget your hang check. You are not hooked in until after the hang check.

It has lessened my airtime a bit being more cautious of launch/flying conditions - but I'm also alive to fly another day

Lucky us.

Something (or combination of things) went wrong with each accident this year. Asking pilots to change habits that so far haven't caused them an issue may not work too well.

Which is why natural selection is such a wonderful mechanism for cleaning up the gene pool.

Another pilot on this thread brought up age. I know age is a factor with me. I'm 63.

Too bad you weren't 54 like Karen.

There's no way I'm as spry as 33 - no matter how much I may think so or believe I can do particular things that allow me to tackle a launch as if I were effectively 33.

- So you'd have been OK in that situation if you'd been 33. Clean launch with plenty of safety margin.
- Show me the difference between 63 and 33 dolly and platform launches and wheel landings.

I've got to dial things back a bit and work on basics - and keep working on basics so that I can see for myself if I'm losing any more of an edge as I move on to 64, 65, etc.

Or instead of working on the basics you could get a platform tow rig and launch in front of your ridges and buttes. (What was the cost of the wing you more or less totaled in that incident that left you limping and could've been MUCH worse?)

Another thing we can do is try and make our sites physically better - smoother launch slope, longer ramp, longer slope...

...tow option...

...bigger LZ...

Yeah?

Stephen Baran - Chattaroy - 16529 - H4 - 2012/08/10 - Dale Sanderson - FL AWCL FSL TUR

You can't consistently stop within a twenty-five foot radius of a traffic cone? How big's your LZ now and how much bigger do you think you need it to be?

...fewer obstructions near launch or a LZ, bigger setup area so we're not rushed ---- assess our sites and see what we can do to make them better - then get together and make them better.

Fuck mountain flying. Karen would be fine right now if there'd been a tow strip in the valley. What would've been the cost of acquiring and maintaining a facility and what dollar figure do we have on her life? What was the price tag just for the emergency response?

And she ain't the only serious casualty from that ramp. 1995/04/29 John Coleman ALSO spun back into the cliff and managed to find a rock protrusion with the face opening of his full face helmet and ended his career. (Recovered pretty well but couldn't risk taking another hit to the face.) Steve Kinsley got caught unassisted when the wind picked up and got swept off the ramp for some career interrupting injuries. Lotsa tree extractions over the years.

Maybe to renew USHPA membership we should all have to submit a 'Better Pilot Plan' ???

Just take the u$hPa Pledge:

I vow to respect the choice to fly, conditions to fly, my equipment, & my responsibility to others.

To protect the sport, the places I fly, the freedoms I enjoy, & the people in this free-flight community.

I am a FOCUSED PILOT

You'll be fine. (I'm really astounded that Karen didn't take it.)

Or do that via our clubs - maybe like an AA meeting ... Hi I'm Steve and my Better Pilot Plan is .....

...to perfect my flare timing before or by the end of June of this season or hang it up and play checkers as my new hobby.

...yadda yadda. Have fun with it but be serious in content. Then we can remind fellow pilots if they try to skirt their own plan out at the hill.

And make sure that sidewire stomp tests and hook-in checks aren't parts of your fellow pilots' own plans. You might break a wire using the stomp test and thus not be able to launch safely and a hook-in check gives you a false sense of security.

Anything we can do to not have to say RIP to more pilots is worth giving a try.

Besides, of course, anything of any actual substance.

We owe it to them, our families, our pals, the sport and to plain keep flying.

Edited to add .... No, I have not yet filled out and submitted a formal accident report. I will - promise. I'm glad I waited as I don't think it would have been that good and honest of a report until going over everything a few time since. I'll submit it before November is over.

Oh good. Then we should all be able to read it in the January issue of the magazine.
Hey Steve... When was the last time you saw u$hPa publish an accident report they didn't have to and one that they did that wasn’t total crap?

cnesmith - 2015/11/13 02:12:21 UTC
Sacramento

I am constantly surprised that the hang gliding safety record is a good as it is, even with this bad year.

How the fuck do you have any clue just how good hang gliding's safety record is?

Hang glider pilots jump off mountains and cliffs in an aluminum and dacron contraption with a flexible connection to the glider and controlled solely by weight shift commonly into moderate to strong thermal conditions. Much of the flight is close to the ground subject to mechanical turbulence also. Chalk it up to the brilliance of hang glider designers that such insanity can be done on a regular basis over decades without injury.

Total idiot.

John Williams - 2015/11/13 03:32:38 UTC
Kingman, Arizona

NME posted that its usually more experienced pilots who get severely hurt. There is a reason for this and its in all extreme sports that its usually the more skilled that get really hurt.

Oh great. Hang gliding is now officially an EXTREME SPORT. Nobody would even dream of disputing this characterization. Uber cool dudes only. Girls and faggots need not apply.

The newbies get scratched and banged up a lot more but its because when getting into a hairy situation the more skilled will usually figure "I can save this" instead of just figuring how to get away.

No doubt. Obviously. Everybody knows that.

As far as why so much more accidents now I haven't a clue.

That's not the only thing about which you have no fuckin' clue.

Where's your data on ANY of that rot? We know to a near certainty who's getting killed and can usually cut through the Industry wall of silence and disinformation efforts to figure out why. We don't know SHIT about the subfatal crashes.

And name someone from this year's fatal list who REMOTELY resembles that remark.

Steve Forslund - 2015/11/13 04:19:02 UTC

It's those dam paragliders falling from the sky distracting hangs.

Get fucked, Steve.

hifly69 - 2015/11/13 08:07:23 UTC

Speaking as a retired HG pilot I would make the following observation. HG is inherently unsafe and most of us will have an accident in our flying career.

Bullshit. Hang gliding has a lot of potential for death and destruction and a real good chunk of its participants get pretty significantly hurt but not in accidents and not because what happened to them wasn't easily avoidable.

The way that we fly head first and level without protection...

Yeah, none of us wear helmets.

...probably adds to the overall severity of any injuries.

Just stay or go upright and onto the control tubes whenever you're near the surface. Problem solved.

Flying supine is probably a safer flying configuration and this may mitigate some problems...

Possibly. I'd guess that we'd see fewer fatalities but more paralyzing spine injuries.

...if adopted.

- Lemme know when that happens. I'll be over here holding my breath.
- What do ya think would happen if all gliders were equipped with reasonable wheels or skids and people used them for all landings?

Sometimes statistics tend to be skewed or biased when the numbers become statistically small.

We have somewhat useable statistics ONLY on fatalities and those represent such a small chunk of what's happening as to be damn near useless with respect to what's happening out there in the real world.

It maybe that the average fatality rate over say 10 years has not trended up?

Who gives a flying fuck? Hang gliding has NEVER done jack shit to implement any of the mostly brain dead easy fixes for any of the problems we've known we've had since the beginning of time. And it devolved decades ago to attacking the brain dead easy fixes and their advocates.

Still the absolute numbers this year are a shocker

Shocked! Shocked!!

Comet - 2015/11/13 08:08:41 UTC

According to Mark Forbes, ten verified hang gliding fatalities for 2015.

Hmm. Wonder how many unverified hang gliding fatalities we've had this year.

I've seen much worse years.

Not for decades.

The forum rumor mill blows things way out of proportion.

Yeah. I'll bet that's what Arys Moorhead's family is thinking as they follow these discussions.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Tom Lyon - 2015/11/13 08:33:50 UTC

I don't believe that you need to look beyond this thread for answers, Robert.

Fuck no! If something ain't good enough for Jack's Living Room it's gotta be total dog shit. I believe anyway.

I think the accidents are the result of factors that have been with us all along.

Particularly the one resulting from a career long refusal to ever do a preflight sidewire stomp test.

Here is what I am doing to hopefully fly safely for 20 more years (I'm a 55 yo H2 with a Falcon 4).

-I'm brutally honest when assessing my ability...

Just how qualified is a Two with a Falcon 4 to assess his ability?

...and try to stay well within my own limits.

In fuckin' spades. When I was a goddam Two I was making every effort to expand my limits as much as possible with every hop I took.

This is Mike Meier's point that Darbb referenced.

Yeah, what an incredible boon to the sport that's been. Just can't figure out why this year we're going through a record bloodbath and the u$hPa and US hang gliding are totally imploding.

My skill level and knowledge will increase on my way to H4...

Sure it will. Ya just can't beat staying well within your own Two limits to safely and efficiently progress to a Four.

...but hopefully my judgment is as solid as it needs to be already so that I stay within my limits.

No doubt whatsoever.

Most of us know what constitutes excellent judgment.

Define "us".

-Since hang gliding is relatively unregulated compared to general aviation...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

I add extra structure myself. This helps address the complacency that Paul mentioned, and is something I learned while earning a private pilot's license (lots of structure) before transitioning to hang gliding.

Did you ever get one of the Cessnas airborne? Or did you just stick to taxiing in calm conditions when nobody else was around in order to stay well within your own limits?

Examples include allowing myself no tolerance for getting slow in the pattern...

Super! Always come in with plenty of speed, the way Jesse Fulkersin did, so you'll always be able to "correct" if you get popped by a thermal.

...no unnecessary turns close to the ground...

Fuck no! That way you'll minimize your chances of crashing and fucking yourself up thus limiting your ability to do a NECESSARY turn...

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...close to the ground. Ya just can't beat this strategy of always staying well within your own limits.

...flying from the hills to refresh even if that's not required...

Wouldn't that constitute a degradation of your strategy of always staying well within your own limits? Wouldn't you be better off staying home and making posts about staying well within your own limits and never doing unnecessary turns close to the ground?

...giving myself BFR-like tasks at altitude...

Great place to practice weak link inconvenience recoveries too - as long as the air's smooth anyway.

...strictly adhering to personal wind velocity/direction limits, debriefing every flight, etc.

Aw fuck... You don't need to debrief every flight. I'll take your word that you stayed well within your own limits.

-I solicit feedback from my instructor and other pilots all the time.

Who's your instructor?

Thomas Lyon - Michigan - 80560 - H2 - 2013/06/17 - Jennifer Copple - AT FL CL FSL

You're in Michigan, she was down at Lockout and her membership's expired. And if you've got such a great fucking instructor up there in Michigan then how come he's not bothering to participate in this discussion?

I'm not sure I'll get critical feedback from pilots who aren't my...

...conspicuously unnamed...

...instructor unless I ask for it, so I do with questions like "Did you see my launch? What did you think? Any suggestions?" I'm happy to hear from anyone, but I especially want the advice of instructors and experienced pilots who are recognized for skill and judgment.

Recognized by whom? Jesse Fulkersin was Four recognized for skill and judgment and kicked everybody’s butt soaring and was doing a flawless approach on his last flight. And all the total douchebags who flew Hyner that weekend and approached that primary packed up and left unscratched and with perfectly straight control tubes. So please explain to me what possible value there can be having the advice of instructors and experienced pilots who are recognized for skill and judgment. Shouldn't we be giving AT LEAST equal weight to the advice of total douchebags who are recognized for fucking up in every way imaginable but being able to return and fuck up in every way imaginable the next weekend?

We all know who they are.

No doubt. Obviously. Everybody knows who they are. Or were.

-Finally, there is a sense of informality in hang gliding that I understand, but do not participate in.

Fuck no. Those informal types tend not to staying well within their own limits and will often do unnecessary turns close to the ground.

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And more importantly for my own safety, I don't look at hang gliding this way. For example, I'll never yell "Whack!" when a landing goes wrong.

You mean whenever somebody isn't able to pull off his stunt landing?

I get that it's funny, but (in my opinion), that's not how to view an incident of that type. It was an uncontrolled ending of a flight.

With the pilot upright on the control tubes for better roll and flare authority and head protection? Go figure.

And I'll bet you make it a point to publicly compliment all the instructors and experienced pilots who are recognized for skill and judgment when they totally nail their flare timing and the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ. (We all know who they are.)

There are many other "That was close!" incidents, poor launches, etc., that aren't seriously evaluated, and this contributes to complacency.

That's why it's so important to always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

When I make mistakes of this type (and I have made at least one serious mistake), I seek my instructor (or others I trust similarly) and have a careful, focused...

...discussion with a concrete plan to avoid doing that in the future.

Back to the training hill to perfect your flare timing?

Steve Pearson made a comment that struck me.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

He said that he felt that flying a hang glider was more challenging in every phase of the flight than flying a sailplane.

'Specially stunt landing. And his partner, the author of the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?", said exactly the same thing.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

I have a private pilot's license for gliders and I completely agree with Steve, at least when comparing my Falcon to the Schweizer 2-33's (very docile) I have flown. So, I approach every hang gliding flight with as much respect and discipline as I ever have in general aviation.

Hang gliding exploits launches, landings, environments, and conditions that general aviation aircraft can't. And hang gliders also have control and stability limitations that general aviation aircraft don't. So it ain't a great idea to always be working out of your general aviation textbook and ignoring hang gliding reality. And note that there's NOTHING analogous to the unhooked launch in conventional aviation.

That's my plan to stay safe. I hope it works.

It'll work just great, Tom. As long as Mother Nature and/or an error of your own never puts you in a situation when you need to be able to pull off a maneuver you never worked on 'cause you were always to fucking busy staying well within your own limits and never doing unnecessary turns close to the ground. Then you might find yourself riding that eternal thermal in the excellent company of all those other focused pilots who always stayed well within their own limits, never did unnecessary turns close to the ground, and never thought about or practiced or equipped for worst case scenarios.