Low Turns to Final
Michael Grisham - 2017/01/01 18:09:10 UTC
Telepilot,
In your description above you have not provided us with a definitive bank angle when the wing tip was two feet off the ground.
Coordinated. In control.Telepilot - 2017/01/01 19:49:39 UTC
It was a high enough bank angle to get our attention. A lot of altitude loss. Not slipping by any means though.
Yeah. Big airspeed. Tons of control authority.Big airspeed as I said earlier.
Gee, you'd think that they'd start becoming aware of the extreme danger in which they're putting themselves every landing and dial things up a bit higher.A fast low diving turn rolling out from the turn about the same time as the roundout began.
What's a commercial tandem ride? I thought the tandem exemption was granted for the sole purpose of increasing the safety of pilot training towards Three level. Geez, everybody remember the bloodbath we used to have at the training hills and on the early high flights from the dark ages when there weren't any commercial tandem rides? Oops, meant to say "tandem training flights?"Telepilot - 2017/01/02 19:00:30 UTC
Man, I hate to say it but after watching this thread develop, I now think maybe the biggest single threat we have to our sport in the U.S. is the commercial tandem ride.
Fuckin' Highland Aerosports couldn't survive WITH its bread and butter AND insurance. And the Mid Atlantic flyer population got stuck with a lot of expensive junk aerotow equipment and AT ratings pretty much useless to them for the rest of time and lost the best flying resource they ever had or ever will.I know it's the bread and butter of a lot of HG businesses and I don't know how they survive if that activity loses it's insurance.
Yeah, it would be such a blow to pilot training.And please believe me when I say, There is NO WAY I WANT TANDEMS SHUT DOWN!!!!
1. By design, deliberately. Because of fuckin' assholes like Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.As Ryan says, and we all already know, Hang Gliding is Risky.
2. 'Specially the kind of hang gliding which has resulted in zero indidents. That's the stuff that we REALLY gotta do something about - FAST.
Best aerotow equipment money can buy, stomp tests for every preflight, hook-in check just prior to every foot launch, maximum conservation of runway length, wheel landings whenever appropriate.Like all of us, we try to mitigate the known risks on every flight (at least I know I do).
Extremely easily reachable releases and the safest possible weaklinks capable of getting the average glider up to flying speed.So, as Ryan put it to Jason, "you also know when to, and when not to, do it that way vs making different (more conservative) choices."
Suck my dick.The tandem ride, it seems to me, is an ideal instance to make those MORE CONSERVATIVE choices. LONG STRAIGHT FINAL.
rant over ----- Happy New Year !
The best of which would be an immediate and permanent banning of tandem flights.Ryan Voight - 2017/01/03 02:47:22 UTC
I would not, and am not, disagreeing with the first sentiment in your conclusion- instructional tandem flights are an ideal instance to make those more conservative choices.
Oh crap, Ryan and I are falling into alignment on an issue to some extent.What I disagree with, is where you go with that- "LONG STRAIGHT FINAL".
That the pilot who is competent enough to pull off a hot RLF approach is gonna be the one who can consistently and safely put it down in the situations that have interrupted and ended a fair number of careers and lives over the course of the past couple years?That is a very black-and-white mandate you're putting on others. And you haven't yet defined what airspeed or approach angle you feel appropriate/excessive. Do you care how steeply or aggressively a tandem pilot dives it in... or is the approach acceptable as long as it's long and straight? Check out some of Wolfi's swooping vids
This whole discussion *DOES* bring up an excellent, bigger issue.
Now watch how Ryan blathers on for another three mind-numbing paragraphs about Low Turns to Final being more or less RISKY depending on individual pilot skill, experience, comfort level... With a gun to his head the motherfucker won't say anything about the ability to execute Low Turns to Final being the fundamental COMPETENCE that makes it safe for guys like Ron Keinan to fly the tasks set for the 2016 Santa Cruz Flats Race.Where IS the line between acceptable and reprehensible? And who is the judge? The pilot? Any pilot observing? The majority rule via community opinion- like this thread asked for? I said earlier, as unfair as it may be, but that line is different for each pilot, and different on each day, and it even changes as conditions change throughout the day. We simply do not know if the tandem pilot(s) in question are reckless "go for it" types, or if what you saw- albeit radical- was actually a calculated precision maneuver. That's where the talking to them comes in... and where the talking to *ANYONE* on the internet becomes useless.
Ryan won't and can't say anything along those lines 'cause in u$hPa-World all runways are infinite in length and never have any problematic obstructions - like trees or powerlines - on their peripheries and one always throws out the first half of the infinitely long runway and adjusts his Long Straight Final to target the old Frisbee at the end of the first half of infinity.
Low Turns to Final require measures of skill and judgment and u$hPa Instructors neither teach nor have it. The Long Straight Final to the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ is to landing approaches what the Rooney Link is to AT launches.
Sorry Ryan, please continue blathering on.
Toldyaso.Tandem flights *ARE* one of our greatest exposures to liability, there's no denying that. However, having a pilot decide what another pilot can or can't, should or shouldn't, be doing... that's a tough sell within hang gliding, to say the least. In the case of tandem instruction, there is a pretty short list of tandem administrators in each region, and each of them only obtains the privilege to serve in that role by being voted on by the USHPA BOD. Of course it's likely some carry out their responsibilities better than others, and it's possible some fail at being responsible with the ability to issue tandem certifications (although all the admins I know take it VERY seriously!). So, working on the grand assumption the tandem pilot's witnessed in the OP are USHPA rated tandem instructors, they've been trained, checked out, tested, and had the importance of safety in tandem activities smashed deep in their skulls. It's possible you witnessed someone doing something they shouldn't (not sure who decides that it's something they shouldn't be doing, if there's no USHPA SOP against it)... or maybe you simply witnessed something where you have a difference of opinion.
I sort of mentioned earlier, how hard it can be sometimes to recognize when someone is doing something they could repeat, precisely, hundreds and hundreds of times... or when they're doing something and "luck" guides them through. The first couple times I looped, it felt lucky. Everyone said it looked perfect... but I didn't feel like the result (success) was something I could take credit for, nevermind rely on again and again. After many MORE years of training after my first loops, it was a totally different experience. I was now able to keep up with what was happening, and even anticipate what was about to be needed. I was flying the glider, ahead of the glider even, throughout the climb and around the top. I knew immediately, if I do another one- I can monitor how it is going and make the necessary adjustments to maintain positive loading, but also keep that loading smooth and light so as to not break something
But if you were watching from the air or the LZ... the first loop I ever did, and the last most recent loop I did... you wouldn't observe much difference. Especially if you're not well studied in aerobatics and looping (being a HG pilot doesn't qualify one to pick out the details in things like that... most HG pilots can't tell a "loop" from a "wingover"... forget about knowing if that wingover was a rollover or a climbover. I frequently get accused of looping my Falcon... which, obviously, I did not). Same for low fast carved approaches. Is it greater risk than a long straight final... most likely yea. And flying is greater risk than having a picnic in the field instead- so why is one choice to commit risk ok and one is not... and why are you who gets to decide that for them (pilot OR passenger)?
It's a total no fuckin' brainer that RLF competency has NEVER been taught and NEVER will be. And let's take a good look at the relevant Special Skill "requirements":
That's all, folks. There's an "a" but no "b". (Great job outlining, u$hPa.) And notice that it doesn't say anything about:The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-B. Special Skills attainable by Intermediate and above (H3-H5).
03. Restricted Landing Field (RLF):
-a. Demonstrates a landing using a downwind leg, base leg and a final leg approach where the entire base leg, final and landing occur within a 300' square.
- a DESIGNATED three hundred foot
- actual obstructions
- maxiumum altitudes
- minimum bank angles
- glider performance
- a landing target
- foot, wheels, belly
- whether the glider needs to remain flyable after landing
So you could do an evening truck tow to two grand at El Mirage on a Falcon 2 in a glassy smooth twenty with a GPS receiver logging your track, sink down to 300 feet at ANYWHERE, turn downwind and hold a bit o' speed, pull a 150 and crab sideways for two hundred feet worth of crosswind, straighten up into the wind, pull in, descend at one to one until you float to a stop still zipped up in your pod.
Produce your track log and a hundred bucks for your friendly neighborhood ratings official and you're good for wherever Davis feels like sending you for the Santa Cruz Flats Race.
THOSE are way more exacting RLF skill requirements than the RLF Special Skills requirements are. And it's a goddam HANG ONE doing them.-B. Novice Rating - Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-f. While in preferred flying position, demonstrates flight(s) along a planned path alternating "S" turns of at least 90° change in heading. Flight heading need not exceed 45° from straight into wind. Turns must be smooth with controlled airspeed, ending in safe, stand-up landings on a heading.
-g. Demonstrates 180° turns in both directions, and at various speeds and bank angles.
-i. Demonstrates three consecutive landings that average less than 100' from a target (or optional landing task - see Addendum 1 - Optional Landing Task), safe, smooth, on feet and into the wind. The target must be sufficiently close to launch such that turns are required to set up an approach and avoid over-flying the target. The target should be at least 100' below the launch point.
Total fuckin' joke. And this crap is supposed to be preparing, qualifying people for the REAL world. People like Ron Keinan who permanently lose 85 percent of their IQs 'cause they can't safely clear twenty foot treelines along planned comp XC routes. But don't worry, people of varying ages... We've always got plenty of choppers standing by and ready to get what's left of you to where it needs to go.
Keep up the great work, Ryan.
