No one ever wants to wait for the accident investigation... they want to know "NOW DAMNIT!" and there's always a lot of self-serving arguments surrounding it.
And it's always the same.
The same damn arguments get drug up every time. And they're all just as pointless every time.
We have a system in place.
It works.
Let it work.
Our procedures are well established at this point in time and there are no gaping hidden holes that need to be addressed immediately.
RR asked what the status was.
ND's provided the answer (thank you).
Please take a deep breath. And wait.
Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)
The sky is not falling.
So we've heard.
2) who is in charge to keep a family updated as to what is going on?
No one. There is no obligation to do any of this. If private persons wish to do it, then fine, but there is no entitlement to know anything.
Sure. That fit's right in with the ol' USHGA Mission Statement...
USHPA's mission is to ensure the future of free flight.
The association will pursue its mission through:
Advocacy. USHPA will interact, proactively when possible and reactively when required, with agencies, organizations and individuals whose interests affect our sport.
Communication. Externally, USHPA will advance the positive awareness of hang gliding and paragliding among the non-flying public. Internally, the organization will cultivate a culture of communication and transparency.
Community. USHPA will promote a sense of community among members both locally and nationally.
Flying sites. USHPA will support the development of new flying sites and the preservation of existing sites.
Learning. USHPA will support learning, in part by providing an organizational framework for instructor and pilot training and certification.
Safety. USHPA will steadily foster a culture of safety.
...just fine.
3) where would one find an official report when it is done and how would they know it's complete?
Joe Gregor may or may not do a report. He is a volunteer.
He's a saboteur.
He may or may not put a summary in the USHGA HG/PG Magazine. He may or may not make all his notes or a full report available. If it becomes available he may or may not tell you and you may or may not know until it is published.
Fuck that. An organization that controls a branch of aviation and presents itself to the FAA, the public, and its members as it does in its Mission Statement and does its job with that contemptible level of responsibility has no moral right to exist.
The FAA may or may not produce a report.
Fuck the FAA too. People should've gone to jail on that one.
4) how does one access that report when it is done?
If a summary of the report is in the magazine, you read it there. If Joe sends me a copy I publish it. If he produces a whole report it may or may not be up on the members only section of the USHGA web site. There is no obligation to do any of this.
Did the family get these answers?
I have no idea. Who did they ask? Who did they sue first?
Nobody. First they waited for a month while being treated with pure unadulterated contempt by the hang gliding "community" in general and the coverup team in particular.
If I lost a loved one and everyone no information were forthcoming, I would be pretty upset too.
I'm pretty upset that I don't have a lot of things, but I learn to live with it. I was very unhappy and frustrated by the results of the last two presidential elections, for example. Trivial compared to the death of one person you say, hardly.
...anyone and everyone who will have anything to do with you.
I would want some type of answers even if it's "no one knows for sure but here are some of the possibilities and we will know more in 3 months most likely."
Well I've given you names of local pilots who might know something, but it is entirely up to them whether they will even talk to you or anyone else.
Lessee... Federal laws were flagrantly violated by both Arlan and Gary. Can't prosecute Arlan 'cause he's dead but you can go after Gary, subpoena witnesses, and jail them for contempt of court or perjury.
Frankly, I wouldn't given the fact of a lawsuit.
Why? What are you and your fellow sleazebags afraid of. Seems to me that only Hang Glide Chicago, Gary, and Arlan's estate are at risk. If they were negligent, which they were, and their negligence resulted in the death of a student pilot, which it did, then why wouldn't you want responsible parties punished?
I am totally frustrated by this entire process.
What process? You think that there has to be some process?
Only in a civilized society in which the sport of hang gliding and the lives of its participants are valued.
If volunteers are willing to give of their personal time to help the rest of us out we should be extremely grateful. EXTREMELY.
Define the rest of "US", Davis. I would be so happy to lie back and down a cold one while any one of your ilk bled to death on the runway.
This very well may hurt hanggliding in a big way.
I doubt it.
I agree. When total pieces of shit such as yourself can get away with making statements like these there's not enough left of the sport to be worth worrying about.
It "seems" that the process has much to be desired.
There is no process.
Just a cynical pretense of one.
Maybe I shouldn't say that ... just what is the process?
Rely on the kindness of strangers.
I'll drink to that. Gotta beat the crap out of the dregs who flock to this sport.
Anyone know?
Yes.
Does USHGA handle this?
Not really. It gives a small bit of structure to help out volunteers.
All the rest of its structure is dedicated to crushing all efforts at reform.
Perhaps I should just say that I am frustrated at all of this.
Yah, got that. So, what?
So fuck you and anyone a DNA test could identify as a halfway close relation.
I admit I have very little sympathy for your position and your feeling that somehow somebody is owed something by somebody who is still alive.
You ADMIT that? Seems to be a primary source of pride.
Arlan is dead and he can't make anyone whole.
He was pretty good at doing the opposite when he was alive.
As long as it was Chicago area hang gliding people who gives a flying fuck?
If they sued Arlan's estate, how is that going to help them know anything.
How is NOT suing Arlan's estate going to help them know anything?
Did they sue the USHGA?
I sure hope so.
The airport owner?
Why not? Did the owner think that Mike Haas's death the previous year was just anothere example of sometimes-shit-happens-in-hang-gliding and not worthy of a closer look?
Just exactly who are they going to sue in order to get the answers they seek?
So ya think everybody all around might have been better off without the coverup?
Bart Weghorst - 2005/10/09 16:31:38 UTC
I very much hope that it's not the ones who would know most about the accident.
The what?
Please someone say this is not the case.
Fuck the people who know most about the "accident". They're the ones who most sat on the information needed to address the issues.
Normally you can find a preliminary report with just the facts in this database soon after an accident occurs. This happened with several ultralight accidents that the NTSB was involved in.
Also, if you check this database, you can see that the status of many accident investigations for accidents that happened years ago, is still preliminary. Investigations of fatal accidents don't seem to be concluded any faster.
Well, the longer you delay going with your best shot the more likely you are to get more fatalities supporting your best shot.
There are other sources of accident statistics. They are maintained by FAA and other authorities. Off course they focus on GA and heavy aircraft...
Michael Van Kuiken - Illinois - 81044 - H4 - 2005/06/01 - Arlan Birkett - AT FL LGO TAT AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - BAS INST, OBS, TAND INST
Good start. Both names misspelled, a new way to misspell Jeremiah's, and the omission of the bothersome apostrophe.
When I saw Arlan and Jeramiah's crash, I watched the glider come almost straight down from about 250 ft. I saw that Jeramiah was doing the take off right from the start and I watched him get pretty low on the tow as the tug crossed the road at the end of the runway.
So then he must've been going pretty fast too, what with the bar pulled in like he must've had it to be getting low on the tug.
And I guess you also saw Arlan trying to push out, counter what Jeremiah was doing, get back into position?
I looked down for a few seconds and when I looked back up, they were released, and going into what looked like a whip stall.
But was, in fact just another totally harmless weak link induced inconvenience.
After the wing dropped they were in an almost straight down nose dive and they couldnt pull out. The weak link broke from the tow plane. I'm guessing from the increasing pressure from being that low on the tug.
- Undoubtedly hundreds of pounds per square inch. Probably suffered some effects of the bends when the pressure was instantly popped back to normal.
- From what did GARY guess the weak link broke and what was his guess as to why his broke:
-- before the glider's?
-- when neither he, Jeremiah, nor Arlan desired to terminate the tow?
My personal opinion is that the glider was just being pulled through the air in a stalled position, and they were trying to push out to get back into position behind the tow plane which slowed them down even more, the weak link broke, they didnt have enough airspeed to fly safely yet, and then a whip stall.
What's your personal opinion on why the fuckin' douchebag on the tug wasn't diving his plane to get into the position where HE was supposed to be and eliminate the danger of his "passengers" whipstalling? Oh, right, tug drivers can do no wrong and we've already got a dead student to take most of the blame for this one.
My question is: If your in an attitude like that facing straight down and you and the glider are pretty much free falling, would there be enough tension on the hang loops to be able to give the glider enough input to be able to pull in for speed then pull out of the dive?
- My questions are: Why are we asking bullshit questions like this and not asking:
-- why the:
--- fuckin' douchebag on the tug:
---- wasn't doing his fucking job (towing a hang glider) when he most needed to be?
---- hasn't:
----- offered any comment whatsoever on the crash that killed two people behind him - one being his employer?
----- been identified?
--- goddam front end weak link blew before the glider's?
--- glider, with a tandem aerotow instructor and advanced student on board, wasn't able to:
---- successfully deal with the inconvenience of the weak link break?
---- properly benefit from the increase in the safety of the towing operation the weak link break bestowed?
-- what the:
--- strengths of the weak links being used were?
--- "thinking" behind those figures was?
- No, Mike, when there's no tension on the hang strap there's nothing you can do to influence the outcome of a situation. So just do whatever the fuck you want under the glider while you're waiting for the inevitable impact.
Davis Straub - 2005/10/10 19:11:27 UTC
Thanks for your eye witness account.
And thanks so very much for posting it only thirty-seven days after the crash and five days after Jeremiah's family filed a lawsuit against Hang Glide Chicago after having become rabidly infuriated by all you motherfuckers bottling up all the information on what happened and why.
It seems to me that the glider should recover from a dive within 250 feet because of it's reflex.
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...not one single Davis Show motherfucker batted an eye? Oh right. Anything that pulls out with two or three feet to spare just bolsters a flight park's superb track record. Sorry.
But without the pilot pulling in it probably would have been more difficult for that to happen.
EVEN with a slack hang strap? Bullshit. It's like when you're locked out. You have no control over the glider so there's no downside to taking a hand or two off the basetube.
If what you say is confirmed and correct then we have an explanation of why the accident occurred and no more reason for a lawsuit.
Right. Mark writes:
When I saw Arlan and Jeramiah's crash, I watched the glider come almost straight down from about 250 ft. I saw that Jeramiah was doing the take off right from the start and I watched him get pretty low on the tow as the tug crossed the road at the end of the runway. I looked down for a few seconds and when I looked back up, they were released, and going into what looked like a whip stall. After the wing dropped they were in an almost straight down nose dive and they couldnt pull out. The weak link broke from the tow plane. I'm guessing from the increasing pressure from being that low on the tug. My personal opinion is that the glider was just being pulled through the air in a stalled position, and they were trying to push out to get back into position behind the tow plane which slowed them down even more, the weak link broke, they didnt have enough airspeed to fly safely yet, and then a whip stall.
and now everything's OK. Happy now, Thompson family? Anything else we can do for you before we take this next call we've got on hold?
(See Matt Taber's article on this in the Oz Report, soon after the accident.)
Once was more times than I could really stomach that one, thanks anyway Davis.
Perhaps your description will answer those who have been "frustrated."
Any chance you'd offer to allow your head to be stuck on a pike? That would go a fair bit to relieving some of my "frustration".
Is a whip stall like going over the falls with no airspeed? If so, could they have fallen into the control frame or tangled in it somehow that would have made the glider unable to regain airspeed to recover from the stall?
No. But who gives a rat's ass. Why are we discussing what happens AFTER going into something that you won't survive anyway without a healthy dose of altitude?
Pete Anderson - 2005/10/11 01:51:14 UTC
From the eye witness account, I can visualize a real high angle of attack on the glider in order to get in-line with the tow plane, if the pilots are low.
Is there some kind of brainwashing program that I don't know about going on which prevents people from understanding that when a glider is low relative to a tug it's NEVER the glider's fault?
This would cause enough force on the weak link to break...
How much force (pressure) is that? If there's a glider flying at a high angle of attack that automatically means that any weak link WILL fail? The tow's still under control and at least some people are trying to get things properly lined up but the fishing line has predetermined that high angles of attack are not permissible?
...especially tandem.
WHY *ESPECIALLY* TANDEM? Do tandems have proportionally lighter weak links than solos. Well they actually DO but SHOULD THEY? 'Specially seeing how you're gonna kill twice as many people when it increases the safety of the towing operation?
There would have to be a lot of space between the pilots and the ground for the nose to rotate downward and the glider to gain sufficient speed to pull out of it.
You mean BEFORE the inconvenience impact?
Yes, its like going over the falls, and for a moment there is absolutely no response you'll get from your glider until it gains the speed it needs to recover. The only thing you can do in that moment in time is pull in.
A number of words have been said here and in the Oz Report. So this statement is false.
Yeah, I guess if you say one or two words only, then the statement is false because "words were said." You got me there.
Told ya you needed to use adjectives when dealing with a piece of shit like this.
Obviously so much was said, nothing more needed to be said. Everything was quite clear. Gee.
Lying as much as possible while technically telling the truth is Davis's favorite hobby.
Six months is reasonable. Apparently the FAA is investigating as was (or is) a person locally. Aviation accident investigations offen last many years.
I am not asking YOU these questions.
Davis is also a master at answering questions that haven't been asked and dodging questions that have.
No one. There is no obligation to do any of this. If private persons wish to do it, then fine, but there is no entitlement to know anything.
Not talking about entitlement...
No, you were talking about simple decency - but that causes Davis to break out in a nasty rash, become grotesquely pockmarked, and burst into flames.
...I am talking about a family finding out about what happened.
You're straying dangerously close to the area of decency.
If a family is asking who they can talk to about the accident, do we say: "no one, there is no obligation to do any of this. If private persons wish to do it, then fine, but there is no entitlement [for you] to know anything." ??? While this may be factual, it's pretty pathetic on our part, imho.
Yeah, well he's pretty obviously a pretty pathetic motherfucker. So what's you're problem?
And, the point of the post had to do with the law suit and why a family might sue. Someone suggested it's all about money. I suggest that it very well may be about finding answers for the family.
From the HANG GLIDING community?
Is the family "entitled" to anything?
We should AT LEAST let them know where they can pick up the body, maybe pass the hat to help cover parking.
No, but being cooperative just might be the right thing to do AND it may keep the case out of court too.
Is there any way you can lose the "the right thing to do" part? I think you might be able to get Davis on board with the rest.
Joe Gregor may or may not do a report. He is a volunteer. He may or may not put a summary in the USHGA HG/PG Magazine. He may or may not make all his notes or a full report available. If it becomes available he may or may not tell you and you may or may not know until it is published.
Just more great answers for a family. I guess we need to stick with "look, your friend/relative is dead, get over it ... and after all, I am more upset about the last presidental election results and I had to get over that."
Bull's-eye.
If a summary of the report is in the magazine, you read it there. If Joe sends me a copy I publish it. If he produces a whole report it may or may not be up on the members only section of the USHGA web site. There is no obligation to do any of this.
Yep, we may or may not be fifty years behind in our ability as an organization to investigate accidents for the benefit of all. I guess we will just wait until the government steps in and makes us do something.
Don't hold your breath. The government has been bought off too.
Our only method that we have come up with is to depend on the good will of total strangers who may or may not provide information which may or may not be accurate, which may or may not be useful.
You learn quickly, Grasshopper.
Who did they ask?
Sounds like Jeff P was tring to get information for them.
I'm pretty upset that I don't have a lot of things, but I learn to live with it. I was very unhappy and frustrated by the results of the last two presidential elections, for example. Trivial compared to the death of one person you say, hardly.
You must have some huge upset about the presidential election. You are saying that a family's amount of upset is trivial compared to the amount of upset you have over the presidential election and that you should equally "learn to live with it?"
He's right. The death of one person IS trivial compared to the global disasters unleashed as consequences of those elections. But what he's NOT saying:
- He personally bears a HUGE amount of responsibility for Jeremiah's death in that he's a major part of the machinery that controls the shoddy policies, SOPs, equipment, implementation of aerotowing.
- One individual in hang gliding can make thousands of times the positive difference by taking a stand than he's likely to be able to by pulling a lever in a national election.
Well I've given you names of local pilots who might know something, but it is entirely up to them whether they will even talk to you or anyone else.
Did you miss something Davis? This note is not about me...
Davis is psychologically incapable of conceiving of an issue that's not about a me. I don't think you're gonna have much in the way of success with this approach.
...it's about the family and the law suit. You missed that I was not asking you to answer these questions. I have talked about this accident with many local, fellow pilots and I have what I need. The point of all the questions is to point out what an outsider may ask and that we have NO information. We have no process. We have nothing.
Welcome to hang gliding in the Twenty-First Century.
To a family looking for SIMPLE information, we look like idiots...
They wouldn't be suing if they thought we were JUST idiots.
...in the stone age.
Not in the stone age. In the stone age our hunter-gatherer ancestor societies couldn't afford to have genetically defective sociopaths like Davis around. They got their skulls bashed in by age five or under and were used as bear bait.
WE HAVE NOTHING! You say, "so what." I say, "we're pathetic."
Pathetic doesn't begin to scratch the surface.
Frankly, I wouldn't given the fact of a lawsuit.
The family is way past talking, I am sure.
Ya think?
What process? You think that there has to be some process? If volunteers are willing to give of their personal time to help the rest of us out we should be extremely grateful. EXTREMELY.
That's my point. There is NO process. I hate the fact that we have to rely on volunteers to investigate this accident. It doesn't seem right on many levels: Fairness to the volunteers, level of expertise to those involved, no standard reporting process ... on and on.
The national organization long ago decided that its mission was solely to advertise for the hang and para gliding industries. It's not gonna do any more in the way of responsible crash investigation than R.j. Reynolds is into emphysema and lung cancer research.
Perhaps this is the best we can do as an organization right now given financial limitations, etc.
Bullshit. This is deliberately pushing the envelope on the absolute worst we can do and get away with and it's totally about ethical and moral limitations.
The point is that we have to rely on the goodness of people to get very important information.
I doubt it.
Doubt it? It sounds like you are fine with rolling the dice.
Duh. 'Specially with other people's lives. He knows the fishing line and bent pin crap he pushes will continue to kill people at regular intervals. But he also knows that the chances of him personally buying it are fairly tiny and he'd rather face that risk than ever admit to being responsible for the climate that wipes out the odd Jeremiah Thompson.
Unless total strangers volunteer to investigate, I guess we have no choice but to stick our heads in the sand.
They've been in sand or up asses for decades.
There is no process.
I KNOW !!! I guess you don't see that as a problem.
You're talking to the epicenter of the problem.
Rely on the kindness of strangers.
This is why I asked the question ... to point out that we have NO process. That we have to rely on the kindness of strangers to make reports. It's this kindness that will get their butts dragged to court.
As TARGETS? No. As WITNESSES for the prosecution? YES. I for one would love nothing more than to be dragged into court as an expert witness in a Jeremiah Thompson, Lenami Godinez-Avila, Zack Marzec fatality legal proceeding. Why would anyone with a true love for the sport NOT want to be?
If they do go to court to testify, this might be the last accident report that we see from a volunteer.
In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.
In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.
The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?
...that had no bearing on anything.
Still don't think this might have a huge impact on our sport?
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC
I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
Yes.
Wait a minute, you just said that there is no process.
Just another one of tens of thousands of contradictions from Davis. Get used to it.
Not really. It gives a small bit of structure to help out volunteers.
Be careful, this could be called a process.
Don't worry. They're working on eliminating all traces.
I admit I have very little sympathy for your position and your feeling that somehow somebody is owed something by somebody who is still alive. Arlan is dead and he can't make anyone whole.
Next time before you go off on a soap box, make sure you understand where a person is coming from.
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
...everyone coming from unapproved places.
This is not about what is "owed" to anyone. Entitlement has nothing to do with this. First of all, it's about safety to those of us still living... to get the most and best information that can reasonably be obtained from an accident without having to rely on the goodness of total strangers because whether you like it or not, that "IS" our process right now.
We may not have videos on all the really great catastrophes like this one, but the glider doesn't hafta actually slam into the ground to get the point across...
...to anyone who actually wants to understand ALL the scenarios that lead to ALL fatalities.
I am very grateful to these people investigating.
Fuck all of them. Their conduct has been totally outrageous on this one.
And like you suggest, I don't think I want to do it especially if I am going to get dragged to court.
Then save your breath attacking Davis. Taking a chance on getting dragged into court to testify as a consequence of trying to keep the next Jeremiah Thompson from getting slammed in ain't exactly being part of the first wave to hit Omaha Beach.
Secondly, it's about the possibility of easing the pain of those of us still alive ... who were close to Arlan and especially to close family members who don't have a clue as to what happened. Perhaps you don't understand this, but there is comfort for the family in providing information about their deceased relative and showing we care. Not only is that true, but I agree with it and it's the right thing, the human thing to do.
I'm getting a mixed message here.
But do we owe anyone anything? No, but that's beside the point.
If we're just parasites in this sport we don't owe anybody anything. Otherwise...
You WOULD think that a glider would be able to recover from 250 ft, but the higher the angle of attack, the more speed you'll lose, and the more speed you lose the more altitude you'll burn up to recover.
For example, if you have a glider with a stall speed of 20 mph, and you stall it and drop the airspeed to 17 mph, you'll need alot less altitude to regain 3 mph than you would if the glider came to almost a complete stop and had to regain almost the whole 20 mph. Then I can see why it would be possible to lose the entire 250ft like they did. Other tandem pilots that I have talked to reported being in almost the same situation, and losing well more than 300 ft before pulling out and regaining control.
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
...flying new, completely untested, and very experimental gear in midday conditions, right?
- These, for the purposes of the exercises, were double fatalities. But let's only publicize and discuss these incidents when people actually die.
Fortunately it happend much higher up so they had the altitude to recover. What do you guys think?
I dunno, Mike. What do YOU think about doing the same thing over and over a again and expecting different results over the range of altitudes at which we fly?
I think that if your observations are correct that it didn't recover from a whip stall in 250'.
But let's ask Arlan and Jeremiah for their take on the issue.
I saw Joe Bostik do whip stalls, break the glider, and throw the chute from very low, without it going into a dive. What is hard for me to understand is why it just dove into the ground.
Well then, maybe you should slow down just a bit on mandating aerotow equipment for other people until you can do a better job of wrapping your twisted little mind around things.
Mike B - 2005/10/11 03:24:10 UTC
glider speed
There is no way a glider in a dive from 250 feet AGL cannot reach flying speed...from a dead stop, a weight dropped from that high is traveling over 80 mph when it hits the ground. A glider will have increasing air resistance as speed builds, and won't be moving that fast, but will certainly be way into good maneuvering speed before the descent is over.
Do a balloon drop then get back to me.
So there must be some other issue, reflex action of glider impaired, or maybe a problem with the pilots hung up somehow with the control bar and it being kept pulled in?
I've never been able to understand - let alone explain - it... But, trust me, you don't wanna be fucking around with severe stalls much below fifteen hundred feet.
Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 03:40:35 UTC
If you don't want truthful answers to your rhetorical questions don't ask them.
I think he wanted truthful answers, Davis. He was just a bit surprised at how stunningly revolting they'd be.
Like I said, there has been quite a bit of discussion of this accident here and in the Oz Report. Quite a bit more than a word or two.
I've got quite a bit of discussion over here, too. Pigfuckers like you, Rooney, Jack, Bob, Peter DO get quoted accurately and in context but you DON'T get to control and manipulate the conversation.
You didn't say who you were asking. If you don't want answers from someone who actually knows something about this, then don't pose questions.
He'd probably like answers from someone who actually knows something about this AND isn't a total piece of shit. That's really gonna limit his options.
And who do you suggest is supposed to cooperate with the family?
Somebody in hang gliding with a morsel or two of common decency. (Good freakin' luck.)
And what does cooperation mean?
If you haven't figured out what that means at this point in your miserable existence - and you haven't - you never will.
I would suggest that Arlan is that person.
How convenient! Or maybe we could go to....
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...the shit pin man with the really chintzy rope that prematurely released the glider.
I don't care that there are no "good" answers for the "family."
Big fuckin' surprise.
There are no good answers for the 20,000 dead people in Pakistan either.
Yeah there are. Pretty much the same ones. Total morons fucking around with forces they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of understanding.
So what?
Yeah, so what? Maybe you could give hang gliding a rest for a while and go over there for a couple of years and give them the same kinda help from which we've been benefitting over here. We'll get Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Dr. Trisa Tilletti to cover for you while you're gone. (Take some bobbleheads of the Prophet Muhammad with you as gifts for the kids - they really dig those things.)
If you are willing to start the accident database and start doing the accident reporting, feel free to get to it. The USHGA is a volunteer organization and only does what volunteers are willing to do. Live with it.
USHGA's got a lawyer handling all that stuff for us now, Davis. He's really streamlined the process.
I am saying that the disappointment of 50,000,000 people who feel that the country is going in the wrong direction is a lot greater than that of the familiy of one man who died in an accident. Get it? 1,950 dead Americans in Iraq for example.
Sure Davis, we get it. You're totally fucking useless at helping to prevent the odd Mike Haas, Jeremiah Thompson, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, Lois Preston, Zack Marzec from being killed in normal aerotowing circumstances so obviously you'd be really great at preventing tens of thousands of conflict deaths in the Middle East and South Asia if only people would hand you the comparably power.
If you want the outsider to know something the first thing you do is make sure that they don't sue anyone, because if they do, they will be sure not to get any answers from people who are volunteering their time and effort.
- Fuck you Davis. There was a lawsuit because the people volunteering their time and effort were volunteering it for the sole purpose of keeping accurate information out of the public eye.
Doug Hildreth spent fourteen years begging for crash data, publishing detailed accurate information in the magazine as fast as he could get it into print, making solid recommendations (that were almost as totally ignored then as they are now), and never infuriated any victims' families and never got sued.
"We didn't release any information and got sued. Let's release less information so we'll get sued less."
"Zack Marzec got killed 'cause his Davis Link didn't break soon enough. Let's make people use lighter weak links that'll break sooner."
- Notice the way the snake oil guys like Davis and Bob will make statements like:
If you want the outsider to know something the first thing you do is make sure that they don't sue anyone, because if they do, they will be sure not to get any answers from people who are volunteering their time and effort.
as if they were just blindingly obvious indisputable facts?
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Exactly the same "we" who applaud these efforts of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weak link material. Mostly Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.
Did you give them any answers?
Certainly not anything as revealing as your comments here.
If the family is way past talking then how are they expecting to get any answers.
By LISTENING perhaps?
But, I'm sure that you are right, and they won't be getting any.
They've at least gotten some from me. I'm pretty good at analyzing what is and isn't being said and who is and isn't saying anything.
It doesn't seem right on many levels.
Well go back twenty or thirty years and change things.
We ARE back thirty years, Davis. Fuckin' douchebags like you have kept us there.
We are not sticking our heads in the stand.
Nah, we're sticking everybody else's heads in the "stand".
The accident was (maybe is) being investigated, as per the standard procedure...
Always blame the lowest ranking dead guy.
...but now I assume that the family has totaly screwed that up.
Fuck that family. We were doing everything JUST FINE, as per STANDARD PROCEDURES. And then THEY had to get involved and totally screw things up. Let's see if there are any other family members we can persuade to take tandem training.
It would also be the last accident report you got from a professional.
A professional WHAT?
BTW, the accident report volunteer for the USHGA does this for a living. I.E. he is a professional.
You mean Joe Gregor? Aren't we INCREDIBLY lucky!
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Crack investigative insights AND...
Joe Gregor - 2007/05
Lesson learned: HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK! Your life will most often depend on it.
...absolutely BRILLIANT solutions to damn near all of our major problems.
Next time try to write your screed so that it doesn't sound like one more long whine about how the world is unfair. Then you won't sound like you or they are entitled, which you definitely did.
I kinda liked his screed, Davis. I thought he did a pretty good job of expressing the kind of revulsion for you that I and scores of others feel.
Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/11 13:11:28 UTC
I don't care that there are no "good" answers for the "family."
How sad for you, Davis.
It's not sad for him. It's sad for a sport that tolerates scum like him in it.
Nuf said.
No fuckin' way. This piece of shit needs nonstop attacks from as many directions as possible for as long as he has anything to do with the sport.
When I arrived at the scene after they took Arlan and Jeremiah away...
What was LEFT of Arlan and Jeremiah anyway.
...we started taking pictures of the wreck.
Are you sure? We're approaching nine years now and I've never seen any.
All reflex lines were where they were supposed to be...
That doesn't mean they were well enough adjusted to have actually been doing anything.
...as well as all of the other wires, nuts, bolts, etc.
The glider STALLED. There's no dispute about that much. Good that you did those things but there's no big mystery as to why the glider went out of control.
One of the pilots who is also a physicist calculated that it took about 4 seconds for the glider to impact the ground from 250 ft.
Did your physicist buddy have any comments on the:
- fishing line at the front end of the towline that blew at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation?
- bicycle brake lever velcroed onto the starboard downtube within easy reach?
- glider's backup loop?
Now, starting at 250 ft, the glider has to drop the one wing, continue the rotation to an almost straight down attitude, pick up speed, and also pull out of the dive.
Not if it doesn't want to.
Just because the glider is right above stall speed doesn't mean that it's going to stop losing altitude.
How 'bout if we just keep our speed up - regardless of what the total fucking moron on the tug is doing - and figure out some way to reduce the likelihood of losing all of our thrust in a millisecond.
It can't just rotate on axis into a horizontal glide, it has to gradually pull out of that curve. Like I said, another tandem instructor reported losing alot more altitude than that in a whip stall with absolutely nothing wrong with the glider.
Right. So if we'd skipped checking all those nuts and bolts - the ones which were keeping the glider together and flying normally before the fishing line broke - it probably wouldn't have mattered much.
So I think it very well could be possible to lose that much altitude, and by the time the glider would fully right itself it would be doing well over min. airspeed. That's just my take on it.
As confirmed by many exciting rides at altitude and lotsa death and destruction over the years when shit happens down low.
Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 15:30:25 UTC
The family lost all moral standing as far as I'm concerned as soon as they sued.
I'm a bit disappointed in the family knowing that at an earlier point they HAD some moral standing with you. I'm a bit embarrassed that you and your scummy little brain damaged buddy didn't stoop to this shit:
Oh, and BTW, Tad is clueless as well as being a child molester (no kidding).
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 23:12:32 UTC
Just to back Davis up on this, cuz the person that let's the cat out of the bag always gets flack for it...
So we're clear as a bell on this.
Tad is a convicted paedophile.
many years earlier.
Brian McMahon - 2005/10/11 15:32:50 UTC
glider speed
Mike B - 2005/10/11 03:24:10 UTC
So there must be some other issue, reflex action of glider impaired, or maybe a problem with the pilots hung up somehow with the control bar and it being kept pulled in?
That's what I was thinking, what if they fell forward into the control frame and the pilot was unable to pull in for awhile (or at all). It could have stalled all the way to the ground. It would probably have to be almost a tumble for them to end up that bad off.
Yeah guys, let's keep talking about what might have happened AFTER the glider whipstalled off tow. And when we're finished with that we can talk about the most effective ways to climb back up into the control frame after we launch unhooked.
Mike B - 2005/10/11 16:01:05 UTC
I'm actually thinking somewhat about the opposite scenario. If the glider was pitched nose sharply down, there should be no reason to further pull in at 250 feet agl. It'd normally be only a few seconds before the glider would accept the control bar being let out to glide at trim. So I have the image of the glider diving with either a "negative" angle of attack (wind against the top surface and reflex bridles not serving quickly enough to pitch the nose up) and/or the pilots somehow tangled with the control bar and unable to just let it out in time.
Craig Hassan (Fynlcut) - 2005/10/11 16:26:41 UTC
Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 15:30:25 UTC
The family lost all moral standing as far as I'm concerned as soon as they sued.
I agree to this!
Great! You just earned yourself a place on a list of mine you're never gonna be able to get off of.
It is understandable they want answers, or even someone to blame.
Or EVEN someone to blame? Let's start with the basics here. Name some good excuses Hang Glide Chicago might be able to come up with for a near solo student to go up on a calm evening tandem training flight and come down dead.
I had a big long post on this but deleted it just prior to hitting submit.
What a pity. I'm sure I could've derived a great deal of amusement from it.
The law suit will do nothing other than drag things out and cause more pain to both families and friends.
You know that for an absolute certainty. So far there's not been a single condemnation of the tug driver for outclimbing the glider or a suggestion that we not tow with ropes that always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation. But we're all ONE HUNDRED PERCENT POSITIVE that absolutely nothing good can come from the involvement of the US legal system.
Have you ever thought about taking a look at the big picture with your head withdrawn from your ass?
Michael Bradford - 2005/10/11 16:34:17 UTC
Walking firmly out upon the limb of speculation, I can imagine the pilots pulling, or whipping through, then becoming trapped in front of, the control frame during the 'whip'. Is this possible?
Who cares?
It would seem to explain the observations we do have...a negative AoA would make extraction from such a configuration difficult to affect. Could the moments imparted to the glider then be equal to a pull-in?
You usually need about three substantial problems to line up at the same time to kill an aircraft. In this case we have a:
- clueless tug driver climbing and staying way the fuck above the tug
- glider Pilot In Command attempting to compensate by nosing up into a dangerously high angle of attack
- rope breaking the worst possible time, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation
This isn't enough for you? You have to invent shit that never happens in real life and throw it in for good measure?
Y'all's problem is that you don't wanna accept the fact that without the safety device that was DELIBERATELY installed in the powertrain, the focal point of our safe towing system, there would've been no catalyst to trigger this one.
There's zero disagreement that the relative positioning sucked and the glider was way too slow. But you're bending over backwards to ignore the elephant because the elephant is global standard operation procedure. And once ANYTHING in hang gliding becomes standard operating procedure in hang gliding the system is NEVER overhauled.
So there must be some other issue, reflex action of glider impaired, or maybe a problem with the pilots hung up somehow with the control bar and it being kept pulled in?
Yes. This is what I was thinking too at first. They were too high not to recover from a stall.
First, let me say that it's nice that others are finally interesting in talking about this. I hope it doesn't come back to bite us legally.
Steady man. The fact of the matter is that we're ALL terrified under the facades of fearlessness we're putting on. But the nation is counting on us and history will remember us kindly for the job we are about to undertake and see through.
To date the only talk that has taken place is "a report is pending" and "here's what often happens in other tandem accidents." No one to date has talked much about the specifics of this accident. To me, this accident was unique because it happened relatively high. 250-300 feet was estimated but if you calculate the climb rate of that tug, and the amount of time they were in the air (known because we know how far the tandem had travelled and it's approx speed), it seemed to me that 250 feet would be a low estimation of height. (This has been discussed locally too, btw)
A local friend that I talked with thought this may have been a lockout - stall.
They're not synonyms.
That they went into a lock out (i.e., side ways) then stalled while on their side.
They didn't mush their way into a lockout.
This helped me understand how someone might stall from 250 feet or more and not recover. Image if you took a glider and hung it from one of it's tips - with the other tip pointing straight down ... then released it. Falling in this position the glider has no aerodynamics and you could imagine how it might flop around until it hit the ground (another person said the glider fell like a wounded bird)
I too was having trouble with the question, "they seemed pretty high, why couldn't they recover." The idea that the glider may have started in this position help me to see how that is possible. If the glider was in the normal flying position, that glider should have easily recovered. But starting sideways following a lockout with zero forward speed might very well cause a stall unlike anything we think of when we think stall.
I think the "getting caught in the glider" is a great thought too. To me, the rear wire are more suspect. I have experienced this first hand. Sometimes in a deep stall, when your legs go neg g's, your legs can beome flopped across the wires. Control suddenly become very limited, often stuck in a turn to the side your legs are caught.
You've had enough your legs flopped across the wires often enough and long enough to make a statement that you're often stuck in a turn to the side your legs are caught?
If this happened with a student who has no idea what is happening, the instructor wouldn't have a chance clearing the student and/or himself from the wires. They only had seconds.
How much training does a soon-to-solo, surfer, US Ski Team member with a master's in mathematics student need to realize that his legs are caught on a tail wire and that's a bad thing?
A third thought on the "why no recovery" is that this glider may have been falling through "bad" air. The wash from the tug could have contributed to the glider's inability to fly again. If the glider fell through that area, the turbulance may have played a roll so the glider never saw "clean" air until it was too late.
Rubbish. Are the people who've been dropping three hundred feet reporting this as having been a contributing issue?
It's these types of discussions that are important. No one here has said how it happened just that these are the possibilities.
No one here has seems 0.1 percent as concerned about the issues that precipitated the whipstall as they do about conspiracy theories about why the glider didn't recover from the whipstall.
We haven't disrespected anyone.
"We" mostly meaning people who aren't Davis, who's been pissing all over everybody, particularly Jeremiah's family and supporters, 'cept the people who really NEED to be pissed all over, particularly himself, his cronies, USHGA, from the git-go.
It's great to think of yourself in these situations (now, not six months or two years from now!) trying to figure a way(s) out.
It's totally sickening to think of myself being in a situation like that at any time 'cause I can be essentially a passenger on a brick with zero options for survival.
BTDT actually. Got totally overpowered by a thermal blast, turned 180 downwind, and dumped weightless into the falls and towards the face of the dune. All you can do is stuff the bar and wait to die. Fuckin' miracle I was able to just barely pull out and rocket up the face of the dune and clear the crest. OK the rest of that day, really shaken up the next.
Conclusion... Don't EVER fly in the conditions capable of generating that phenomenon again. And the conditions/circumstances which killed Jeremiah and Arlan are MUCH easier and more fun not to get into. It's fuckin' moronic to be discussing your best options/responses for AFTER you've allowed them to happen.
Obviously if anything might help you out of something like this, the sooner you can impliment the solution, the better.
- Don't EVER fly:
-- behind a crappy driver
-- with a crappy rope between you and your driver
That stuff you can do before hooking up. (Soon enough for ya?)
- If you DO find yourself behind a crappy driver do as much as possible to increase your safety margins and eliminate his.
- Spend as much time on line as you can afford making Davis's life as miserable as possible and lie about his blood type if the ambulance crew asks if you can round up some volunteer donors.
A few weeks ago there was a bad accident here at Blue Sky involving an experienced (three years) aerotow pilot who made a number of mistakes. You can read about her accident in the accident report above, which Steve Wendt, the owner of Blue Sky immediately wrote up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA.
I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.
First, the pilot couldn't find the portion of her V-bridle that attached to her keel and decided to tow off her shoulders, something that she had no experience with.
Second, she flew her more advanced glider when Steve felt that she would have normally flown her less advanced glider after not flying a lot lately and in the middle of the day.
Third, she didn't have a weaklink on the shoulder portion of her bridle, only on the portion that went to the keel, so she flew with didn't have a weaklink.
Fourth, she pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart. With no experience towing off her shoulders she didn't have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle.
Fifth, with her arms straight back she had much less control over the glider.
Sixth, she began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard.
Seventh, she didn't release immediately once she started to PIO trying to "save the tow," even though she was out of control, because she had experience successfully towing and didn't understand how much trouble she was in, being out of control so low and so soon off the cart.
Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, but when she was endangering the tug pilot. The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.
And here's an OCR assisted transcription of the report, complete with original clueless spellings, grammar butchery, verbosity, pretentiousness, general sloppiness/carelessness:
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .
Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.
Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.
These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.
Anybody else think this piece of paper looks like it came off a typewriter?
On Memorial day weekend, a pilot made a few mistakes...
Just the pilot, of course. The flight park operators, her instructor, the tug pilot all performed flawlessly and are completely blameless. Only when their students and/or patrons DON'T get half killed are they credited for their roles in the track record.
...which ended up hurting her.
What? A skinned knee, bruise, or something? They have Band-Aids and antibacterial soap on hand for those sorts of things, don't they?
I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight.
Did anyone who was part of your operation observe her hooking up at launch from a couple of yards away?
I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
Wasn't she your student from Day One and hadn't she been signed off for all of her ratings and special skills by you and been under your supervision and tutelage almost constantly over the course of her entire career? I didn't think you were supposed to sign people off unless you were totally confident in their ability to make and exercise GOOD decisions.
The pilot...
Her name's HOLLY. You've identified her as HOLLY KORZILIUS in the heading and you refer to her as HOLLY six times in the text subsequent to this point. Any chance we can drop the "The PILOT" crap?
...launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally...
...with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot...
Which pilot?
...had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
But she hadn't yet demonstrated the kind of proficiency necessary to qualify for participation in a pro toad clinic.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly...
Must've been hit by one of those midday thermals you were talking about two sentences ago.
...and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle...
The what? Oh yeah, that's the term pretentious hang gliding assholes use for "tug". It has four times as many syllables so the person using "tow vehicle" is obviously four times as intelligent as we muppets are.
...upon when the tug...
Tow vehicle.
...pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force .
A fairly violent exchange of force? She shot somebody in a kneecap to get him to hand the force she wanted over to her? She paid the tow vehicle pilot a hundred bucks for the force she wanted but then beat the crap out of him anyway?
Here's a lockout which was very probably of a similar severity to Holly's:
Can you point the violent exchange of force out to me so's I can get a clue as to what the fuck you're talking about?
Holly pulled in to have control speed...
Really? She didn't just pull in so she could get back on the ground and ready for a relight real fast?
...and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so.
As opposed to hitting the ground AFTER she could do so?
She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
When I was down there you told me that I wasn't permitted to go beyond placard limitations because it wasn't safe. Did you fine her or give her a three month suspension to show her you were serious?
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly...
Think you've got enough "l"s in there?
...prevent them.
- What were her facial injuries? Fat lip? Bloody nose? Black eye?
- Couldn't TOTALLY prevent them? But MOSTLY prevented them? She needed fifteen hours of surgery and a shitload of titanium to put her face back together nine days after the crash. But her full face helmet mostly prevented her facial injuries. We don't need your stupid ass to tell us that her full face helmet "helped reduce her facial injuries". Just tell us she was using a full face helmet and her face was fuckin' demolished.
The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .
Well I'm so very happy their performance met with your approval. I wonder what they were thinking about YOUR performance as an instructor and flight park operator.
Now, why did Holly not have control?
Total shit instructor and equipment?
Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident.
I think she's only got the Sonic now.
She has flown here in much stronger conditions before, and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.
Was the air questionable? I haven't heard the slightest indication that the air had the slightest goddam bearing on the incident.
Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases...
What's a proper release? Any cheap velcroed on bent pin crap you sell and feel like calling a proper release?
...and weak links...
I thought she was supposed to use an APPROPRIATE weak link. Finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Maybe she got confused and used appropriate releases and proper weak links. Think that could've been the main problem here?
...and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.
And I'll bet you always gived her excellent advice whenever she seeked it.
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release.
Wait a minute. You just said:
...she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links...
We all know bloody well she was using a Wallaby "release" with the brake lever velcroed onto her downtube and a bent pin piece of crap as a secondary - and that's all she was using.
So she's using proper releases - plural - and weak links - plural. Meaning primary and secondary. And proper weak links are ALWAYS - "in this particular case" - "130 green line, 130 pound test". So she would have had at least one secondary weak link with her secondary release and bridle. Either that or you're lying about Holly always towing "with proper releaseS and weak linkS".
She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems.
...trained to understand potential problems? How 'bout you? That guy apparently either didn't understand the problems or chose to disregard them. Nobody seems to know what really happened and you're known for being exceptionally knowledgeable. Don't recall you setting anybody straight on that one so it's pretty fuckin' obvious that either you don't understand potential problems or are willing to put pro toads up one strong well placed thermal away from certain death.
This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.
- "We" who? You don't call all the shots down there? All important decisions are made by a committee?
- Yeah, evening air. That would've been a LOT safer. That violent midday thermal turbulence she took off in was near certain death.
Our dollys...
Dollies? You mean your ground launch vehicles?
...have check lists for many things...
- Too many to list here or post on your website.
- I don't have much in the way of confidence in someone whose profession is supposed to revolve around checklists who spells it as two words.
...one is that you have a proper weak link installed.
Can you tell us what a PROPER weak link is, if different gliders need to use different proper weak links, whether proper weak links fall within the range of FAA LEGAL weak links, what a proper weak link will do that an improper weak link won't?
She had no weak link as it...
- IT? Singular? You said she used proper weak linkS.
- She HAD a weak link, motherfucker. There was one on the front end that was LEGALLY REQUIRED to be 25 percent over the weak link that Holly was presumed to have been using MAX. Holly's would've limited her to 226 pounds so Tex's couldn't have been any more than 283. And note that the weak links Morningside decided they were happy with would've put her at 348.
...was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find...
What about the one on the lower line that she was using? Did she take it off to see how well she could close a bent pin release over a thick rope without a weak link?
...and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.
- Why can we only assume that? Is it too much fucking trouble to ask her?
- So fuckin' what? What's a proper weak link supposed to do? You haven't told us? Is that more relevant than the backup loop you're not saying anything about?
- How much trouble would it have been for the guys you had crewing for her to scare up a spare primary bridle already fitted with a Standard Aerotow Weak Link? They were prepping and assisting her for launch and you were well within range.
These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure...
- Too much bar pressure to what? She's a fucking Marine Captain. Is the required force too much for her to handle?
- One of the mistakes was that she didn't have a proper weak link. So that was one of the mistakes that caused her to have too much bar pressure?
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC
Incorrect understanding.
Incorrect understanding.
...she was cross controlling...
So when she attempted to turn the glider left she was actually turning it to the right?
...and had no weak link.
Yeah. You've stated that repeatedly. You haven't told us why it matters.
She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination.
Do you know anyone who actually TALKS like that, Steve? If you're pulling that bullshit to make yourself sound exceptionally knowledgeable it's totally backfiring.
The pilot...
Which pilot? Are we still talking about Holly?
...also stayed on tow too long.
How 'bout this pilot?:
01-001
04-200
07-300
10-307
15-413
Did he stay on tow too long? Or just about right?
She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct.
- How 'bout Tex? On what oscillation did he say he realized that things were not correct?
- If she'd had her proper weak link on that bridle on which oscillation extreme would it have safely released her from tow?
- On your scooter tow training video you say:
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
Doesn't a proper weak link totally cut the power in a millisecond? Or is cutting the power only dangerous on scooter tow and when effected by the guy on the throttle?
Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.
- As opposed to a locked out situation that she COULD control.
- Isn't oscillation usually indicative of someone REALLY controlling the glider? If someone's CROSS controlling how can the glider oscillate. If Holly's trying to throw a left input and goes right isn't she just gonna try to go more left and end up really locking out to the right?
You're totally full of shit, Steve. You're not smart enough to lie your way through a report. Pay somebody with a functional brain to do it for you next time.
A few weeks ago there was a bad accident here at Blue Sky involving an experienced (three years) aerotow pilot who made a number of mistakes.
The real biggies of which will, as usual, be studiously ignored.
You can read about her accident in the accident report above, which Steve Wendt, the owner of Blue Sky immediately wrote up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA.
Joe's really good at these things...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Whenever he finds a half or totally dead body on the runway with a closed release he immediately knows EXACTLY what the problem was.
I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.
About what? Preventing reruns or doctoring reports?
First, the pilot couldn't find the portion of her V-bridle that attached to her keel...
She could only find the portion of her V-bridle that attached to her pro toad bridle.
...and decided to tow off her shoulders, something that she had no experience with.
No experience towing off your shoulders only is really good to have.
Second, she flew her more advanced glider when Steve felt that she would have normally flown her less advanced glider after not flying a lot lately and in the middle of the day.
But Steve apparently didn't feel strongly enough to say anything about that issue until AFTER she'd been half killed.
Third, she didn't have a weaklink on the shoulder portion of her bridle...
What the fuck is "the shoulder portion of her bridle"? Bridles don't have PORTIONS. They're lines with eyes at the ends spanning two points. There's a primary bridle which spans the primary release at the keel the secondary bridle. The secondary bridle spans the pilot's shoulders.
...only on the portion that went to the keel, so she flew with didn't have a weaklink.
Why not? What kind of total fucking moron teaches as student to omit secondary weak links?
Fourth, she pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart.
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC
Incorrect understanding.
I can see where something like that could be a real problem.
So she had the bar stuffed so why wasn't she diving into the runway? Steve makes no mention of her not being level with the tug. If she had the bar stuffed...
...wasn't that because she HAD to keep the bar stuffed to stay level with the tug?
Sixth, she began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard.
- Was she pulled in HARD? Or was the problem just that she wasn't using a two point bridle to align the thrust line with the center of drag and thus the bar was trimmed way the fuck back?
- She PIOed because she was pulled in so hard? I see Ryan here:
pulling in hard enough to loop the fuckin' glider and HE's not oscillating.
Seventh, she didn't release immediately once she started to PIO...
And Tex didn't release her immediately once she started to PIO. And he had about fifty thousand times the experience that Holly did - plus the equipment to actually be able to do it.
...trying to "save the tow," even though she was out of control, because she had experience successfully towing and didn't understand how much trouble she was in, being out of control so low and so soon off the cart.
Holly continues to improve, but after yesterday, it's important that I paint a more sobering picture. Her improvement---though definite---is relative to the severe trauma she endured. She suffered a small amount of bleeding in her brain. Though not life-threatening, it causes her to fatigue far faster and more easily than were the bleeding not present. As a result, she slept more-or-less continuously throughout the day.
She can't chew anything as her upper jaw is loose, and even swallowing is difficult. She's being kept alive purely by fluids delivered intravenously. This probably won't change until after her surgery.
Dialog with Holly is extremely limited (as she's rarely awake), and consist only of direct questions to which Holly can nod "yes" or "no." She did form a few words yesterday, but her voice was deep, scratchy, and hoarse. One of the things she whispered to me---for the second time---was: "What happened to me?" Though I had already told her she was in an accident, I elaborated slightly: "You were flying a hang glider on tow and lost control. I don't know why you lost control, but you did. You impacted the ground hard, and were very lucky to survive. Your body is in excellent shape---no worries there. But your face is pretty banged-up. You have some broken facial bones, and your upper jaw is loose. That's what they will fix in the surgery you need to have." I didn't go any further than that...and she seemed a bit surprised by it, but didn't ask any more.
During a more wakeful moment early yesterday, I asked her a few gentle questions to get a better handle on her memory loss. First, I asked if she remembers even being at Blue Sky at all---no. I asked if she remembers Steve Wendt (her hang gliding instructor)---no. I then asked if she knows who Kate is (my daughter) and she nodded yes. I asked if she knows her two cats---another yes. So with the puzzling exception of Steve Wendt, whom she's known for years, her memory loss certainly extends backwards through the days prior to the accident.
Holly Korzilius - 2006/09
I have no recollection of the accident itself. My hang gliding instructor saw my 'flight' from a distance. The only thing I remember was making the decision to tow off the shoulders, preparing to get towed aloft by the ultralight, and acknowledging that the wind was crossing slightly from my left and to prepare for my left wing to get lifted (which would put me in an unintentional right-hand turn immediately after I released from the tow dolly).
That's what she told Steve and that's what Steve told you? Everybody and his fuckin' dog knew that her memory of that was totally and permanently wiped. Lying pieces of shit.
didn't release, Davis? Trying to "save the tow", even though you were out of control, because you had experience successfully towing and didn't understand how much trouble you were in, being out of control so low and just getting dragged off the cart?
Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her...
And WITH a weak link he wouldn't have had to release her because...
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble?
Not a ghost of a syllable about the tug being endangered.
-- So for the first two oscillations the tug was doing fine. But that THIRD one! Holy SHIT!
-- So what you just said was that the reason Tex cut her loose wasn't in the glider's best interest. The only reason Tex cut her loose because HE was being endangered.
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...would've kept Holly from getting too far out of whack. So why didn't he? Was he just worried about the inconvenience of having to start over a few extra times?
If you're gonna spew lies on crash reports you might wanna think about limiting them to one or two per incident. When you keep heaping them on like they're going out of style they start tripping all over each other and creating tangles you can never even begin to straighten into anything remotely believable.
