landing

[miguel]

Sorry about your injury.

1. Injuries...


Plural.

2. So's he.

Well... I could raise the stakes by putting up a pic of my broken femur and the rod inside. I have the full size radiographs.

I have a couple experiences where I had to let go of the tubes.

In what percentage of them was it necessary to put your hands on the tubes in the first place?

Both of them. Landing in a chemise bush is best done feet first.

http://www.mlsr.net/images/2005Oct17/IMG_1506.JPG


The large bush complex behind the glider is chemise. It tends to stop a glider quickly and if you are lucky, it springs you right back out. If you are not lucky, you will penetrate. There can be ugly, sharp, broken branches inside.

In one, I swung through the front wires, cutting myself on them as they were uncoated. Other than that there was no damage to me or the glider.

How much damage would there have been to you and/or the glider if you had rolled it in?

See the picture/explanation above.

There used to be a pilot...

Not everyone who comes into a field attached to a glider is a pilot.

On the day I saw him land. He launched way before I did and was the last glider flying. He outflew everyone that day. His way of landing worked for him just like the wheels work for you.

...around here that landed by rolling up into a ball and letting the glider fly into the ground at trim.

Sounds a lot like a passenger to me.

True for the landing.

Letting go lessens the chance of experiencing a spiral fracture.

Letting go of a bobcat lessens the chance of getting cut to ribbons. But it's much better if you don't pick the bobcat to begin with.

Glider jockeys see the Lookout (Colorado, Georgia... doesn't matter) Happy Acres putting green and think, "I should put my hands on the downtubes in spiral fracture position and practice stopping on a dime so in case I ever need to stop on a dime in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place I'll have better odds of success. If I screw up and let go in time that will lessen the chance of experiencing a spiral fracture."

I wonder if, when they see a bobcat crossing the Lookout Happy Acres putting green they think, "I should pick up that bobcat so in case I ever need to pick up a bobcat I'll have better odds of success. If I screw up and let go in time that will lessen the chance of me getting cut to ribbons."

This fellow has it made. No spiral fractures and no bobcat scratches, just bliss.

[Tad Eareckson]

Well... I could raise the stakes by putting up a pic of my broken femur and the rod inside. I have the full size radiographs.

It wasn't taken shortly after a botched wheel landing.

Both of them. Landing in a chemise bush is best done feet first.

In what percentage of those landings was it necessary to land in the chamise?

The large bush complex behind the glider...

Good place for it. Beats the hell out of having it in front of the glider.

...is chemise.

Chamise - Adenostoma fasciculatum.

It tends to stop a glider quickly and if you are lucky, it springs you right back out.

Not a big fan of luck based aviation. Tired of it very early after Highland Aerosports became an antibiotic resistant fixture at Ridgely.

If you are not lucky, you will penetrate.

How very odd. For a first date the precise opposite is the generally accepted standard.

There can be ugly, sharp, broken branches inside.

At the Woodstock launch they conceal White Oak trunks inside the Sassafras undergrowth. I have a foot that has reminded me of that fact every waking moment for a bit over twenty years now.
Consequently my thinking is that our focus should be on avoiding vegetation which can conceal hazards rather than quibbling about which end of our bodies to use to enter it.

See the picture/explanation above.

The title of this thread is LANDING, not how to survive a crash.

On the day I saw him land. He launched way before I did and was the last glider flying. He outflew everyone that day.

That may make him a skilled flyer - that don't make him a pilot. World Record Holder Davis Straub and Bobby Bender Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business, come to mind here.

Perhaps instead of diving down to the tug the pilots should have just eased in to take the tension off the tow line and then waited for the tug to recover the climb, though the last pilot I towed was Jonny Durand so I figured he would know how to handle it but when he had a weak break I decided to pull out of the tugging.

A PILOT understands and can handle the basics. I don't give a rat's ass if someone HAS just flown 474 miles - if he started out with a standard aerotow weak link on his protow bridle at the end opposite his bent pin release he's not a pilot.

His way of landing worked for him...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

Same way Jonny's standard aerotow weak link works for him.

...just like the wheels work for you.

1. I was smart enough to come in on the wheels a few times when a standup effort would've been disastrous but too stupid to make them the default priority.
2. Name a pilot in any other branch of heavier-than-air aviation who lands by rolling up into a ball and letting his aircraft fly into the ground at trim. All the ones I can think of remain in the position they were at a thousand feet with their hands on the controls until the aircraft rolls, slides, skids, or planes to a stop.

True for the landing.

One of the two most critical phases of flight.

This fellow has it made. No spiral fractures and no bobcat scratches, just bliss.

It sure would be interesting to know how many hours of hang gliding airtime have been converted to couch time solely by practice for landing/crashing in the chamise.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground...

Or breaking an arm or ripping a shoulder apart and losing the ability - temporarily or permanently - to fly hang gliders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

1-2717
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png

2-3017
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5222/13952337472_43b71cf6a2_o.png

3-3305
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5119/13975497333_f5bfabda02_o.png

4-4219
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5064/13952334721_73f82e16d7_o.png

5-4401
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5281/13975491923_4587b30d6d_o.png

6-4518
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

02-2507

04-2809

05-3001

06-3104

07-3205

08-3304

11-3505

12-3509

13-3602

14-3608

18-3704

21-3708

24-3810

26-3910

34-4008

43-4107


Compare/Contrast.

[Tad Eareckson]

Update...

Once again Allen has exercised his God given right to take valuable evidence of a serious incident out of circulation and make the job of people dedicated to reducing the frequency of reruns a lot harder. I think he keeps trying to beat his previous record of pulling the video in the shortest possible time after I've posted the link. Looks like he did about forty-five seconds this time.

So, from my downloaded (and safely backed up) copy...

1:03 - Suspension goes tight and glider goes back down on shoulders.

1:12 - Left foot moves. Allen's confidence in his memory and courage are both superior to mine by a factor of at least five - pretty remarkable given his early history.

1:14 - About a half a dozen steps into the launch run the suspension once again goes tight and Allen's confidence in his memory and courage is validated.

1:04 - Allen is on final approaching the Lookout primary from the west with a slight tailwind.

1:23 - Allen loses interest in piloting his aircraft and shifts his focus to stopping his glider on his feet as close as possible to a traffic cone. His first effort towards achieving this most admirable of all hang gliding stunts is to totally dismiss the idea of rolling in on his twelve inch wheels, start rotating up from prone, and free his soon-to-be worse than useless legs from his pod.

1:24 - Allen probably moves his right hand from glider control to whipstall / arm break / shoulder rip position a bit below shoulder level.

1:25 - Allen moves his left hand from glider control to whipstall / arm break / shoulder rip position a bit below shoulder level.

1:26 - Allen shifts both hands to higher/better whipstall / arm break / shoulder rip position a bit above shoulder level.

1:27 - Allen is fully poised in classic stunt landing position save for the bar being a wee bit forward from where it should be. But hey... He can certainly be forgiven for that 'cause we all know it's a real bitch to try and hold the bar back when you're in stunt landing configuration. And besides, he's a fair bit short of his goal of cone stomping glory and it wouldn't hurt to try to float the glider a wee bit closer.

1:28 - The flare is executed a wee bit late with the glider a wee bit slow and Allen a wee bit behind the glider. All very minor, forgivable stuff and we've all been there, done that. And like Mike Meier says, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them." Left toe is about a foot off the surface and the ignominious twelve inch wheels are floating about three times as high.

1:29 - "Landing gear" is down - left foot far forward, right foot far aft - ready to run. Ignominious wheels are still a good two feet safely off the surface. But, alas, the glider's still a wee bit too fast and Allen only gets to take one step before the glider outpaces him. Despite his automatic and instantaneous response of shifting his hands up another eight inches, he's still unable to adequately slow the mushing glider. The glider then alters his status to that of passenger and lands itself a bit roughly on those nice twelve inch pneumatic wheels, briefly dipping its nose to horizontal.

1:30 - Within this one second time span the glider rolls to a complete stop only about a wingspan short of the cone and eating up only another two feet of runway. The deceleration causes the passenger to swing forward relative to the glider and, after just a bit of energy is absorbed by the shoulder, his left hand is freed from the downtube and he rotates around his right hand still on the downtube without further injury. The passenger then swings back to about normal prone trim position, much as he was when he was piloting his aircraft from just after launch up to 1:23.

1:31 to 1:37 - The dust cloud betrays a tailwind of maybe as much as three miles per hour. I suppose a ribbon on the cone could've provided that information PRIOR TO landing but - as the cone was placed in the field as a challenge rather than an aid - that would diminish its purpose to some extent.

I'm always getting accused of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 20:51:52 UTC

Coming from a guy who's username is aerotowing, yet has nothing good to say about it... that's pretty funny.

...never having anything good to say about anything and...

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 06:11:41 UTC
I think my opinion on Mr Negative are pretty clear, so I'll just say

Ah, with that out of the way....
Back on topic

Ryan...

...being a Mister Negative but I'd like to say some positive things to say about this landing.

- On final the speed is good and the glider stays level all the way in and down.

- Allen touches down and stops perfectly lined up with the target and just a little outside of the radius specified for the Hang Four spot landing requirement - no mean feat, lemme tell ya.

- The nose only drops to horizontal and there's no damage to the glider whatsoever - despite the tailwind.

I see much worse landings just about every time I'm in a primary in light air and, all in all, I'd say this is a pretty good landing on which to end the season.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27141
an early end to my flying season

Well wishes and/or medical advice:
- Wayne Ripley
- Don Arsenault
- Rich Jesuroga
- Red Howard
- NMERider
- Steve Baran
- CAL
- Paul Walsh
- Bob Flynn
- Cragin Shelton
- Paul Edwards
- Dan Harding
- skyshaddo
- Tom Galvin
- JFS737
- Matt Christensen
- Jason Boehm
- Carm Moreno

Suggestions on how to do better stunt landings:
- Wayne Ripley
- Don Arsenault
- Steve Baran
- CAL
- Dan Harding

Suggestions on how to better survive stunt landings:
- NMERider
- Steve Baran

Recommendations to quit or reduce frequency of stunt landings:
- ...

[Tad Eareckson]

P.S. Note that this guy:

http://www.mlsr.net/images/2005Oct17/IMG_1506.JPG


who with the chamise behind him and at about ten feet off the deck and landing uphill:
- has both hands on the basetube;\
- is still mostly prone
- is adequately level
- appears to have all the speed he needs

I'd predict that if he stays like that until two seconds before flaring - either to land on his feet or belly in - he's gonna finish his flight in a lot better shape than a lot of other people we've all seen in the LZs and on the videos.

[Tad Eareckson]

miguel - 2012/09/21 17:30:15 UTC

Before contact with whatever, LET GO of one or both downtubes.

I was in Colorado 2012/09/20-25 and shortly after arrival at Denver and heading out to the west on I-70, much to my surprise, found myself looking at the big white Colorado School of Mines "M" on Lookout Mountain about three miles to the north and a wee bit to the right of where Allen launched for his last flight of the 2012 season the previous weekend.

Anyway, I got a bit behind on the forum and some of my thunder...

Zack C - 2012/09/25 01:18:50 UTC

Do you think that pilot had never been told that? If so, do you think the outcome would have been different if he had been?

I'd read to let go of the tubes prior to breaking my humeri, but it didn't make any difference for me.

...got stolen in the interim. But here's the extent of the take on the issue I had composed till now.

Reminds me of a couple of other pearls of wisdom from the kinds of folk to whom this sport owes so much...

Quest Air Hang Gliding

ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

Allen's been flying hang gliders since at least 1976. To the nearest ten thousand, how many times do you think he's:
- heard the advice to, before contact with whatever, LET GO of one or both downtubes?
- given the advice to, before contact with whatever, LET GO of one or both downtubes?

How many injuries do you think that message is gonna prevent?

When ANYONE'S landing ANYTHING he's gonna be doing what he should be doing - trying to control the plane down to the last millisecond. When someone's landing a hang glider with his hands on the downtubes versus the basetube his control of the glider decreases and his chances of needing to go to the hospital if his landing is less than perfect increases - both by a factor of about twenty.

Worldwide we've got a zillion people flying hang gliders annually making about eighty zillion flights. Barraging them with the messages that they must release the towline before there's a problem, hook in before running off the ramp, and let go of the downtubes just before the glider contacts the surface and decelerates will make ZERO difference.

If you wanna extend people's flying seasons, flying careers, lives...
- Equip them with tow systems which don't stink on ice.
- Train them to verify their connections within two seconds of EVERY FOOT LAUNCH.
- Put wheels or skids on their basetubes and skid plates on their harnesses and train them not to land in chamise or boulder fields and to keep flying the plane until it's down and stopped - as is customary and has been working extremely well for over a century in REAL aviation.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3173
somewhat predictable accident at Highland

Allen Sparks - 2008/04/19 01:38:55 UTC

If accidents were 'somewhat predictable', I'd bet we would have fewer

_hit happens. There are no recipes that prevent it.

In the past, I've flown for many years with wheels. I used them (solo) once just to try them out. I always used them when flying tandem. A few times they saved me from a major whack. In retrospect, I tended to take my whacks less seriously, because the wheels 'saved' me from the embarrassment.

Here in the rocky Rockies, I don't have the luxury of landing on mostly-level grass-covered fields.

The guy who bought my U2 didn't want the WW wheels 0- said they were useless ... so I kept them and tried to put them on my Sport, but they would not fit ... without some serious grinding and modification. Our local truck tow operation gets some awesome airtime (16k stuff) and has a rig that is not compatible with the WW wheels, so ... rather than jam them on and risk not being able to remove them, I decided ... what the hey .. Sport 2s are easy to land ... and made the decision to fly without the wheels.

We don't really have much LZ terrain that is wheel-friendly around here. So I am wheel-less for the time being, until I decide to do something else. I can tell you that it makes me take my landings even more seriously.

A week ago, a new pilot to the area muffed an approach and transition to the uprights and ended up pounding in (without wheels) .. the noseplate nailed him squarely in the back of the helmet, but fortunately, without injury. I really doubt that wheels would have made any difference, unless they were monster 12" pneumatics.

I broke my humerus (badly) in 1989, with nerve damage. In that instance, wheels would not have made a difference.

Some times _hit is gonna happen. That is the only thing that is somewhat predictable.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27141
an early end to my flying season

Steve Baran - 2012/09/16 13:53:20 UTC
Chattaroy

What was the wind direction in the LZ? It looks as if it may have been a slight tail wind (due to the dust you kicked up). Only critique I can add besides not landing downwind ... is pushing up instead of out on the DTs.

Hey, I feel for you! I whacked each of mine on a couple of occasions. Hitting a tree skiing and trying to pull a tarp off of frozen ground. Neither seemed all that bad so I never had them looked at. But, one took a good twelve months to feel/act 100% again. Hope yours heals up more quickly!

Wheels - When I bought my Sport 2 (used) it came with wheels. They came in pretty handy on a landing I made very similar to yours and I luckily rolled to a stop. But, the wheels were very annoying getting ready to launch and on setup (I didn't think to make a lock for them). So ... I got rid of them. I found that my landings improved right away. Guess the thought that I didn't have a backup anymore made for increased motivation and concentration on landing speed and flare timing/execution. ... Now, maybe if I don't wear a helmet anymore I'll start using my head!

And I tow with a standard aerotow weak link and a piece of shit Bailey release on my shoulder. Really makes me focus on smooth control and staying in the center of the Cone of Safety. Plus the 130 pound Greenspot prevents me from going up in strong thermal conditions that I might not be able to handle.

And I'll bet if everybody left their seat belts unbuckled, disabled their airbags, and leaked a bit of air into the fluid of their brake systems our highways would be a lot safer too.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5544
Bad Day for Sparky out West

Brian Vant-Hull - 2012/09/17 00:36:41 UTC
Manhattan

Takes a lot of work to recover from a rotator cuff injury. That sucks.
I visited that site with him when I was in the area for Christmas. That LZ did not give off warm and fuzzies, to put it mildly.

It wasn't the LZ that got him - either time. Just like it wasn't the LZ at Quest that got Lauren or Shannon Moon. Every one of those incidents would've been EASILY landable on ANY wheels.

John Middleton - 2012/09/17 16:19:47 UTC
Arlington

Sorry that Sparky got hurt and hope he's back in action soon.

He actually is - for something new, different, and unexpected.

If you watch the video...

If you downloaded a copy in time.

...you might notice a few things and I want to comment for the benefit of all.

Yeah John, go for it. Tell us all how to do this right and I have little doubt that after we get the message broken arms and torn up shoulders will - for all intents and purposes - become things of the past.

He has his hands at a good spot for the flare.

And a great spot for maximizing the damage to himself.

But he pushes mostly forward while his body appears to be moving back which reduces his flare. Also, and more important, if he was ready to run at touch down it may have worked out fine.

Oh well, give him another third of a century. I'm sure he'll get it all worked out eventually.

If having a hard landing always be sure to let go the instant you hit...

Yeah, now where have I heard that before? If only somebody had told him that.

...(he appears to do that with his left hand a little sluggish but keeps his right hand on the down tube).

Big surprise.

We all can have bad landings...

Somebody show me a video of a bad wheel landing.

...and I have had my share over the years but trying to learn from them or observations of others can help us to be better/safer pilots.

Bullshit. Ya have people doing inherently dangerous landings they're gonna get hurt at high frequencies and I don't give a rat's ass who they are.

Hugh McElrath - 2012/09/18 20:53:08 UTC

Oww! He did something similar a year and a half ago (and posted the video)...

That one's down, too.

...had to have reconstructive surgery. Hopefully not same shoulder.

Fuck you - parasite.

Matthew Graham - 2012/09/19 13:57:59 UTC

I talked to Sparky. Yep. Same shoulder.

Jonathan thought the other - and Allen didn't bother to correct the misconception.

His range of motion is good - but lots of pain with certain movements. He's optomistic...

Learn to write, Matthew. And while you're at it learn to read what other people are saying before you comment.

...that he'll only need to do PT.

Anybody wanna say anything about wheel landings? Oh, right. This is the Capitol club - perpetually unencumbered by the thought process. Never mind.

[Tad Eareckson]

John Stokes - 2008/04

I rethought my flying and progressed as a safer pilot. I went back and flew lower sites to which I was more accustomed. I started flying more often and gradually built on my experiences. By the mid to late 1980s, I was in my heyday, flying a lot, sometimes several times a week. If I didn't get an hour or two each flight, I was disappointed!

I was really dialed into my glider... you know, when the wing feels as if it's part of you. I probably would have continued flying at this rate, but I had a bad landing on a cross-country flight. Mix together a little complacency, an unexpected thermal lifting off, producing a low left wing and slow pirouette to that side, sprinkle in no wheels to speak of, and Voila! - a nice spiral fracture of my left arm!

Funny thing is... (and it is hard to think funny thoughts when the muscles in your broken arm are undergoing spasms), I had virtually no damage to my glider, save for a grass stain on my nosecone. Larger wheels would have helped and maybe even prevented the fracture.

And to hear pilots say, "I don't fly with wheels because I know how to crash!" is kind of like saying, "I don't use a seatbelt because I know how to fly through a windshield!" Everybody has the right to break a downtube. Or an arm.

If you had flown the glider all the way down and bellied in with no wheels to speak of or no wheels at all you and your glider would've been OK.

(Saw a fair number of Kestrels at the Pawnee National Grassland Monday.)

[Tad Eareckson]

NMERider - 2012/09/20 08:40

53 minutes then "Crack!"

Big thanks to:

- Greg Carey and Kevin G. for coming out to break down my gear and get me back in my car;
- Good Samaritans: Shaun and Nolan, Darla and Ellen who trudged out through rattlesnake infested riverbed to see if I was in need of assistance;
- The local Sheriffs deputies, EMTs, rangers and SAR helicopter;
- Lin at Baguette Express for carrying my sandwich and Vietnamese coffee out to my car;
- Ivan and ??? at Klatch Coffee in San Dimas for helping me with my additional coffee and scone;
- Rafael and Harriman Jones urgent care for wheeling me back to my car after my X-Rays and initial doctor visit;
- Kevin and John Samul for driving the van up early;
- My neighbor Blake who schlepped my glider into my garage storage sling and harness into our living room;
- Several others whose names I did not get who assisted me in various ways.

So, I launched Crestline at 12:03 PM headed straight for RnR and climbed from 5000 to 9500 feet in seven minutes.

I was on a dual mission to pull either a 100-mile OnR to San Jac or a 100-mile FAI triangle via Little San G - Lucerne Valley - Cajon Mountain - AJX + I wanted to get hi-res GoPro stills along the way rather than the usual video.

I had radio headset issues, then my GoPro overheated and shut down, I felt ill and disoriented in relatively moderate turbulence and decided to try the front range which tends to be smoother although a slower X/C track.

I left RnR at 9500 and glided all the way to Harrison without so much as a bump, but there was some sink along the way. Harrison turned on as I arrived around 12:34 hrs and got me back up to 7300 and it hit turbulence and again felt ill.

Rather than just gliding back to AJX and landing or taking a more conservative line back to Keller Peak, I headed East for Yucaipa ridge. Due to bailing out too low from Harrison, I got to the foot of Yucaipa Ridge at 100' AGL and was unable to make a low save and set up to land into the 10 mph SW wind rather than uphill and downwind.

I found myself crossing Highway 38 and glided a quarter mile along the boulder-strewn river wash with plenty of four to six foot tall bushes. I set up to do a nice flare from six feet at bush-top height then choked and put my feet forward rather than behind me with knees bent. This caused the glider to come down in a mush rather than stop and tail slide as I should have done.

My right foot caught on the soft and stringy dry grass surface which bent my ankle around 90-120 degrees clockwise. I watched in horror and felt my Medial Malleolus go "crack" and I knew even before my control bar hit the soft ground that I was screwed. The nose barely even touched but it was indeed a whack.

53 minutes and what do I get? Well, at least I didn't let my control bar snag on any bush tops and pitch over forward into one of the multitude of boulders in this overgrown wash. Had I had enough sense to land uphill downwind in the nice field NE of Highway 38 I am sure I would have landed just fine. It was a beginner's mistake and nothing less. When I felt so uneasy in the air above RnR I should have headed for the LZ and saved it for another day.

I did get a few nice shots before my camera overheated and Shaun who came to my aid will be taking PG lessons. He was so stoked when he watched my videos that he called me while I was on my way to urgent care in Long Beach. It's funny how meeting folks at times like this brings out the best and does not discourage adventurer seekers in the least. The risks versus the rewards are clearly understood by many.