clamb147 - 2011/02/22
One of my flights from my flight training Sunday and Monday.
dead
He MAY require everyone to lift the glider and demonstrate he's hooked in SOMETIME prior launch - but I doubt it.
And there's no fuckin' WAY he's requiring everyone to lift the glider and demonstrate he's hooked in JUST prior launch.
This guy verifies at 0:21, signals readiness with that moronic double stamp at 0:26, and starts his launch run at 0:30. That's a nine second delay. I start breaking out in a rash if it's been any longer than two. What sane reason is there for not making a double lift and tug the only acceptable ready signal?
Hold the glider down on your shoulders as tightly as you can get it and stamp your foot a couple of times to let your driver and everyone else within sight know that you're positive you're hooked in - and have been since before the camera started rolling.
That's not just prior to launch - that's twenty seconds before launch. Sure am glad he has such a great memory. And sure am glad I don't.
I think anybody who comes out of Mission doing this right and having the right mindset figured things out on his own in spite of the program.
Pat doesn't impress me in the least on this issue. As far as I'm concerned he's just a better version of Matt. He's still saying "Do this then relax and assume you're hooked in for as long afterwards as it takes you to get airborne."
I agree that I jumped into the wing a step too soon on this flight, and my hand transition wasn't as smooth as it could have been, but that's how I was taught to transition my grip. As soon as the wing starts to lift you off the ground, transition to the bottle grip like quick drawing a revolver, a smooth wrist rotation.
Assuming you're connected to the glider - which you always do.
By the way... When you're thanking EVERYONE for all the replies and comments are you including Michael? What's the point in thanking him if you're not gonna act on what he says, respond to him, or even acknowledge his existence?
My instructor tells me my next step is to go prone sooner, while on tow. I'm working to that.
Ya know sumpin', Don...
If you suggested to a twenty year aero or truck tower that he foot launch behind a tug or platform rig he'd look at you like you'd just landed from another solar system for about five seconds before he'd tell you to go fuck yourself.
Ya ever wonder why your instructor is starting you off launching with the most difficult, demanding, complex, control limiting, and dangerous method of getting airborne on tow and then "ADVANCING" you to the easier, less demanding, more idiot proof, simpler, control optimizing, safer method?
I do pull in a slight amount until transition to help with control, but it's very slight.
Yeah, we all noticed that.
Generally, blindrodie is right...
Generally, blindrodie is a total asshole. The occasions upon which he isn't are so few and far between and otherwise unremarkable that it's not worth paying any attention to him - unless you get the kind of enjoyment gutting him that I do.
...you need to relax your grip and let the glider fly at trim while on tow.
Yeah, that's always my goal whenever I come off a ramp or cart in thermal conditions - a relaxed grip and a glider flying at trim. That way I know that I'll always be ready for whatever hits me.
As far as the AOA, I usually have it pretty good. I think it looks high in this video due to camera angle. It's a contour roam, and you have to spin the lens and guess where trim and vertical is. There is actually a slight downhill on launch.
You had a pretty significant stall there, dude.
It was not a weak link break...
Mind if I repeat that to make sure Matthew, psuguru, and Wonder Boy understand what's going on?
IT WAS *NOT* A WEAK LINK BREAK.
...and I don't believe the release touched the control bar. I got a crap release.
Name five people in the US and Canada who didn't.
That's all there is to it. I never ever had a double release on any of the training harnesses. When I switched to the spaghetti and bought this release it double released on me all the time, but I usually don't transition until at least two hundred feet so it's always been a non-event. Annoying, but a non-event.
There've been a lot of people killed in this sport because they got accustomed to flying with crap releases - and weak links - that regularly malfunctioned above two hundred feet where the malfunctions were always annoying nonevents.
And, of course, there are a hundred times more people one fervently wishes would be killed...
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...as a consequence of annoyances under two hundred feet.
I told them there was something wrong with the release, and they didn't believe me.
Why should they? I'm sure it has a very long track record.
Thought I was too new, and it was my technique.
It's hard to go wrong in this sport assuming that your instructor is a total asshole.
Until this flight. The release just let go. My hands never left the down tubes, and it did not touch the base bar. It was the final straw. If I let the video keep rolling, you would have seen me quickly lose my cool, and yell and curse and march into the office to demand a new release. I got one, and my next flight went great.
Did it have any identifiable scratches on it so you'll be able to find out who they sold it to next?
Got into my first light thermal! Here it is in this thread:
And has the glass eye to prove it. Ask him if he has anything about polypro towlines and understrength weak links in his Charts of Reliability.
...and I will always take his advice over any.
If he was really any good you wouldn't be taking his - or anyone else's, including mine - ADVICE. He'd be teaching you the theory and walking you through the math and physics so you wouldn't need anyone's ADVICE.
He has been towing for longer than I have been alive.
Yeah, so? What's he know about towing that a halfway intelligent Hang 2.5 couldn't pick up in a couple of days of classroom?
As Ken de Russy said "I think he was the first one to ever horse tow a Dickenson wing". I'm learning from Michael Robertson. Those of you who know him know what I'm talking about.
Yeah I've known him - maybe for longer than you've been alive.
Name ONE THING - piece of equipment, technology, method, procedure - that he's come up with himself and contributed to hang glider towing in the three decades since he took Donnell's lead and moved the lower attachment from the control frame and stuck it on the pilot.
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC
I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
I seem to have missed his scathing condemnation of that pack of lies and dangerous lunatic crap Dr. Trisa Tilletti - his neighbor and colleague 269 miles to the west-southwest - published in the June issue of Hang Gliding.
But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the comments and criticism, it gives me something to think about and discuss with Michael. Keep it coming everyone.
OK...
Think about the fact that this legendary motherfucker sold you a "CRAP RELEASE"...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...which could have easily mangled or killed you in less optimal circumstances, totally ignored your concerns that it was malfuntioning, continued sending you up on it, and didn't replace it until after it put you into a dangerous stall and caused you to go postal on his ass.
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC
I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
DO NOT TRUST THIS SONUVABITCH - like I made the mistake of doing eighteen years ago.
Oh, and if you check out that other thread, it tells a bit more about my experience, or lack of it.
And about the landing...
Who cares?
Too low, too late, didn't push up enough, reached forward with my feet, blah, blah, blah... all things I'm working on... but it worked!
I can tell you a lot easier way to make a landing work - a lot more consistently and safely as well. It's kinda like a dolly launch in reverse.
If it were me I would want to be leaning into the run and going with the pull. That would put me in a better position to make a smooth transition as the wing lifts off and the hang strap gets tight.
ASSUMING, of course, that it WILL get tight - we haven't actually established that before starting our launch run.
That position will also give me better roll/pitch authority. I want to be flying in control prior to climbing out. YMMV.
Nah, I hate be flying in control prior to climbing out.
But we DO have some common ground here - like you, Don, Martin Apopot... I don't want to know that I'm connected to my glider until at least a couple of seconds into my launch run.
You recovered as well as most. The ONE THING that pilots must dial in with these types of foot launches is: one MUST be ready for an early release, for whatever reason.
The assumption being, of course, that one always CAN be ready for an early release, for whatever reason.
I don't ever make that assumption so I'm one of those dangerous nut cases who flies with a weak link that won't blow when he needs it to.
It appears you were!
Yes indeed, it APPEARS that he was. But if he had let the video keep rolling, you would have seen him quickly lose his cool, yell and curse, and march into the office to demand a new release. He got one and his next flight went great...
...even to the point that his suspension again went tight a couple of seconds into his launch run.
Mike Bomstad - 2012/09/05 06:17:11 UTC
How about you keep your nose down... that was way to nose high. The screen shot was just prior to what I hope was the weak link letting go.
Thank you, once again, Mike for your insightful and valuable contribution to the discussion. Reminds me quite a bit of this one from my discussion on the Paragliding Forum...
Recommended breaking load of a weak link for surface-based towing is from 100% to 120% of the towed weight. This will usually be approximately 90-135 kg (200-300 lb) for solo operations.
Experienced pilots flying in turbulent conditions may prefer weak links at the higher end of the range, while less experienced pilots and students (at the discretion of their instructor) should be at or below the low end of that range. A single loop (two strands) of #205 leech line should be adequate for solo flights, and three strands should be good for tandem flights.
Four strands of 130 lb test braided dacron kite string (a single loop folded through the tow line loop with sides on or through the release, resulting in an actual breaking strength of about 230 lb), is sufficient for average solo pilots. 150 lb test can be used for tandem flights and larger pilots. The total strength of the weak link does not equal the sum of the strengths of the individual strands because of the effects of the rings.
Aerotowing operations should use weak links which will break at a tow force of 80% to 100% of the total towed weight (usually 90-114 kg or 200-250 lb). Since two-point bridles are usually used, if the weak link is at one end of the bridle rather than at the end of the tow rope, the weak link itself must break at less than half of the maximum allowable tow force. A single loop of 60 kg (130 lb) braided fishing line, or a single loop of #205 leech line slightly weakened by an extra overhand knot, should give an acceptable 55 kg (120 lb) breaking strength, limiting the tow force to 109 kg (240 lb).
Tandem operations should use weak links of 100% or less of the towed weight for surface towing, usually approximately 175-180 kg (385-400 lb), and 80% or less for aerotowing.
3.4.2 - Weak Link Specifications For Paragliders
Recommended breaking load is 75% or less of the towed weight.
Knots used in tieing weak links:
To tie the weak link line to a metal ring, an "improved clinch knot" is a good choice, since it will not slip and does not weaken the line.
To tie an end of the weak link line to itself, a "grapevine knot with safeties" is simple and effective. The "blood knot" is also good.
...a bit over a month before the Bomstad catering piece o' shit "moderators" kicked me off.
How about it? It's probably a bit slower than trim, min sink maybe.
The more tension, the higher the AOA while flying at trim.
BULLSHIT.
The more tension the steeper the climb and - because the effective weight of the glider is higher - the higher the airspeed but the ANGLE OF ATTACK stays the SAME!
Don Arsenault - 2012/09/05 01:09:41
My instructor is a legend in towing and I will always take his advice over any.
If you don't understand the difference between angle of attack and pitch attitude - and you don't - and how tow tension affects the performance of the glider your instructor is INCOMPETENT - and he is.
Also...
Yeah the pilot is probably experienced but what's he doing that requires any? His climb isn't all that much different from your climb 'cept he wasn't using a crap release that blew four seconds after he left the ground.
Also note that he dolly launched, step towed, and free flew prone with his hands on the basetube the whole time time and didn't get in any trouble until right at the end when he went upright and shifted his hands to the downtubes for a foot landing he had absolutely no need to do. And the result of that is that he finishes the flight on his kingpost.
And note that on your crap release flight you also are trying to foot land when you have absolutely no need to do so and screw it up a little, hafta work a bit to keep from beaking, and end up using a bit of wheel.
It's a really crappy idea to foot launch and land these things in environments in which there's absolutely no need to - and I don't give a rat's ass what you're experience level is. Increased difficulty, decreased control, increased stalls, groundloops, bonks, crashes, injuries, and deaths.
We are supposed to fly at trim while on tow, as previously stated.
You're supposed to fly on tow at whatever speed you need to on tow. Just like in free flight. That speed can be anywhere from min sink to bar stuffed.
And I'll tell ya sumpin' else... When a Robertson crap releases works when you don't want it to, a Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation, or a Ridgely tug driver makes a good decision in the interest of your safety you don't wanna be upright with your hands on the downtubes 'cause sometimes a few inches of recovery altitude can spell the difference between getting your shaking back under control then giving it another shot and getting your flying career ended.
Typing this on my phone, so sorry for lack of detail.
That's OK. I can wait until you're back at the keyboard.
emaltsev - 2012/09/05 22:11:57 UTC
Fremont, California
Good recovery
What was the perpose of this flight?
Don Arsenault - 2012/09/06 01:48:10 UTC
Really?
Anyway, let's see if I can put this in more understandable terms, now that I'm sitting at my computer. This is not a launch from a mountain or hill. This is not an aerotow, with your tow point always in front of you.
Hopefully.
This is not a truck tow with your tow point moving, keeping the angle to the tow point relative. This is a stationary winch tow. The winch is at one end of the field, and does not move during the tow. All it can do is pull straight, with more or less speed. Speed = tension.
Pressure. Read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.
The tow line connects to my release, which is attached to a line connecting to my carabiner. The tension does not pull on me or my harness, it pulls on my hang point, or my wing's centre of gravity.
1. Yes - it DOES pull on you and your harness. And things could get real ugly real fast if it didn't.
- It's not pulling DOWN on you and your harness but it is pulling you left, right, and forward and easing you back - depending upon glider heading and tension fluctuations.
- The fact that the tension is routed around you and your harness by this bridle running to your carabiner rather than through your harness suspension is - for the purpose of this discussion - totally irrelevant. The performance and control response will be EXACTLY the same ('cept if you go through the harness you'll have less crap in the airflow.
2. The hang point isn't the wing's center of gravity - it's its center of pressure.
The more tension or speed from the winch, the more my wing rotates around this centre of gravity tow point. If I do not give pitch input, then the glider is flying at trim. If my wing trims at 15 degrees, then draw a line 15 degrees from where my keel is pointed, and that's my flight path. The object is to gain height.
That's just for surface towing. For aerotowing the object is to...
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
...and hearing from the shitheads running the flight parks about their proven system which works.
The more speed or tension from the winch, the more my nose pitches up on trim flight, and the more height I get.
You seem to be overlooking the focal point of a safe towing operation.
He could pull slow, and keep me twenty feet off the ground if I wanted. That's how I started.
I started with Mike pulling me slow five feet of the ground when I wanted to go up then having him dump me and break me downtube.
The more comfortable we get on tow, the more tension we get.
Funny, I seemed to get the precise opposite.
The more tension we get, the more height we get.
I don't know about that.
Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
Sounds like an invitation to a lockout. Better throw in a loop of 130 pound test fishing line just to be on the safe side.
Kinda like you going to bigger hills. Our job is to keep a straight flight path, and let the winch pull us up at trim.
I'm sorry. Our JOB is to protect the loop of 130 pound test fishing line. 'Cause if we don't protect it, it won't protect us. Anybody callous and/or clumsy enough to harm that fishing line deserves whatever happens to him.
The winch operator is Adam, and he's great.
Was he one of the ones you talked to when your Robertson two stage was autoreleasing?
He knows how much tension I'm comfortable launching with to get me to transition height. He then let's off tension so I can comfortably transition, then he pours on the tension until I start to yaw around, then he backs off a bit. That's my sweet spot, and that's where I remain until I'm over the winch, then he cut's tension for me to release. I've had a few beers, and feel like I'm rambling a bit, but I hope that clears things up a bit.
This seems to be better than some of your previous stuff. Try a few more beers and let's see what happens.
This is in my own words and thoughts, and I'm fairly new to this flying thing, so experienced stationary winch tow pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.
If/When you're wrong, what makes you think that somebody who's driven a winch for fifteen or twenty years is gonna spot it and set you straight? This is high school physics stuff and damn few glider towing people can handle grade school stuff.
Don Arsenault - 2012/09/06 02:00:52 UTC
I should also add, the name of the game is to be prepared to react to a loss of power, as others have stated. A loss of power can come from a weak link break, a winch failure, or apparently, a release failure.
- No excuse whatsoever for two of those, not much for the other.
- Must be nice not having somebody 250 feet away watching you in a mirror poised to make a good decision in the interest of your safety.
- No, wait. Forgot. You have Mike. He'll quite happily make a good decision in the interest of your safety from three thousand feet away.
We must be anticipating this, and ready to react when it happens in this type of towing.
What does the type of towing matter?
I am not even a novice yet, with less then two hours airtime, and I am pretty proud of how I reacted to and dealt with the situation.
Yeah.
If I let the video keep rolling, you would have seen me quickly lose my cool, and yell and curse and march into the office to demand a new release. I got one, and my next flight went great.
In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...
This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.
We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.
We could use a lot more of that sort of reaction in this sport. 99.9 percent of its participants are stupid sheep in love with shoddiness. It's really refreshing to see someone stand up to one of these dickheads for a change.
Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you...
Why not? This guy's going up like a fuckin' rocket.
des roulettes ? ou des roulettes ET un fusible correctement taré ?
PSUCVOLLIBRE - 2012/06/12
14-0610
19-0719
So why not just use a heavier weak link?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
But this guy's not getting his wings torn off. And he's towing at a WAY steeper / less efficient angle so the forces are WAY higher than what you'd need for a rate of climb like that for aero.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Fuck you, Jim.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
And your people who work at and run aerotow parks - especially Ridgely, Blue Sky, and Quest, their long track records, depths of experience, and proven systems that work.
Mike Lake - 2012/09/06 07:37:29 UTC
What was the purpose of this flight?
?????
1.
Launch (inexpensively) over flatland, gain height, release, boat about a bit looking for a thermal, have fun and go XC.
If you don't find a thermal land right back where you took off from.
Goto 1.
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
Oh good. I so do love it when aerotow people come up with more inventions.
I unfortunately lost the pictures of his very slick bridles, but he has created two aerotow bridles from Spectra and Vectran lines in thicknesses used for shroud lines on parachutes.
WOW!!! That's REALLY THIN! I'll bet that really helps the ol' Dragonfly when it's hauling you up two point - especially with all that Quallaby release cable crap draped all over the glider that you're not gonna be able to stow after you release and will hafta fly around with for the next two or three hours.
The Spectra lines are very thin but can handle 750 pounds. You put a weaklink on that that can handle 200 pounds (about).
That's odd...
Davis Straub - 2005/03/01
Therefore I assume that the single loop of 130 lbs test line is providing a weaklink strength of about 1/2 G, about 120-150 pounds.
Just two months ago the standard aerotow weak link was 120 to 150 pounds (about). How did go it get fifty to eighty pounds (about) heavier in that short a time?
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
Wiring problems kicking in again?
Bob uses Vectran for the three point bridle.
There's no such thing as a three point bridle - asshole.
The Vectran leg...
The two point BRIDLE - asshole.
...goes to the keel. Vectran is used because it can handle the heat generated when the Sepctra line on the shoulders is released and slides through the loop at the end of the Vectran.
- The two to four foot Spectra bridle, like it says in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden - asshole.
- What if you minimized the length of the bridle...
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...neither one of them will function under load...
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...when it counts.
Bob Lane said that Quest Air sold over 40 of their bridles (and Bob sold 15 or 20) during the Nationals. The Quest Air bridles use thicker Spectra and are designed not to whip around and accidentally tie themselves to the carabineer.
That's stupid. Why would anyone wanna design something to NOT not to whip around and accidentally tie itself to the carabinEEr?
Especially at...
...Quest?
Bob says his bridles will not do this either.
Well that's great to know. Long really thin bridles that have NO POSSIBILITY of wrapping.
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Not like that thick crap that Ridgely uses that wraps over half the time when the shit hits the fan.
So I guess that there's absolutely no point in having secondary releases and weak links.
Hey! Here's a thought! We can eliminate the keel release and all the crap we use to blow it and just release from the bottom!
Most pilots here are towing off their shoulders. Those pilots who are also towing off the keel are now required to have a release at the keel if they have a bridle release at their shoulders requiring the bridle line to slip through the (tow ring) that connects to the rope connecting to the tug. If you don't have a release at the keel, then you will not be allowed to tow with this system.
Guess we can just use wrap proof Bob Bridles and scrap that rule, eh Davis?
It is great to see these safer, simpler, and easy to use aerotow bridles becoming popular.
It sure is, Davis. We can just declare any crap we throw together to be safer, simpler, easier to use, and absolutely infallible and unload zillions of them to the trusting idiots who show up for competitions, recreational flying, and "instruction" at Flight Park Mafia facilities.
That's a so much better business model than the way I do it.
I spend years thinking about possible failure modes, studying hardware and materials, and designing optimized, robust, clean, light, quality systems with enough redundancy to handle any problems and tell people that if they launch into the wrong shit and/or with the wrong douchebag on the Dragonfly they can still get killed just as dead as Mike Haas did and six times faster.
Fuck you and every last one of your snake oil salesmen buddies.
Another day of Scooter Towing at Wes/Mar. It was sunny but with winds 6-10 mph. I made an effort to land on the same spot every time but only made it within ten feet four times out of the seven attempts.
You're doing fine, Scott. If you ever hafta land within ten feet of a traffic cone I have every confidence that you'll do just fine.
I also had a line break on the first tow...
No big fuckin' deal.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
We've come a long way since 1974. We now understand that line breaks increase the safety of the towing operation and install special safety devices - called weak links - to ensure that they happen about once every four tows in sled conditions and about once every two or three tows in good conditions.
...and made some meager efforts to find lift. Overall it was a good training session and a good exercise in ground handling.
How did you trigger the release of the tow cable? In the past you were using your hands.
Ryan Voight instant hands free release. Works best in a lockout. You just increase your roll, push out, then fly away.
Scott Corl
The first flight was a tow line break. The end of the tow line has a loop through which the bridal runs.
It's a BRIDLE, Scott.
It can wear out if not properly inspected.
Maybe if you used a RING of some kind at the end of the towline it wouldn't wear out.
Nah, since you don't have a designated weak link anywhere in your system it's probably a good idea to keep sawing through the Spectra a bit each flight. Ya just never know when you're gonna get an overload that would put your bent pin releases out of commission.
00:23
- The guy who's running that tow operation is a total moron.
01:09
- Time to release.
- OK, slide your left hand inboard to help compensate for taking your right hand off the controls.
- Good thing everything's level and trim, isn't it?
- Now reach over the basetube and give it a tug.
- Nothing happening? Give it another tug.
- Nothing happening? Give it another tug.
- Nothing happening? Really lay into it this time.
- SHIT!!!
- Try reaching around behind the basetube and really getting serious.
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...
- Good thing Quest Air has stayed busy perfecting these things all these years. The 2002 Bailey Release woulda taken every bit of twelve seconds to pry open.
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
- Maybe even more if you'd been in a lockout and had had too much pressure on it.
04:48
- Now, slide your left hand to the middle of the basetube, grab the barrel with your left and give it a good solid pull.
- Excellent. Got it in a third of the time. Now you can go back to flying the glider.
08:39
- Real smooth this time. You're really coming along with this.
- And if you back up to launch at 08:19...
- I like the way the mountings on your Bailey Releases put the fronts of the barrels right up against the basetube. That way if there's a tension surge or you pull the bar in a little there's a good chance that one or - if you're really lucky - both of the releases will blow open.
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
- Whatever's going on back there will invariably get better when something dumps you.
11:29
- I really like your bridle. In the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, it says that it should be two to four feet long - and yours is every bit of four.
- And really thin.
- We used to think that a short thick bridle would be less likely to wrap as it's feeding out through a tow ring but that was before the aerotow experts...
Diver Bob Maloney came up with another invention. I unfortunately lost the pictures of his very slick bridles, but he has created two aerotow bridles from Spectra and Vectran lines in thicknesses used for shroud lines on parachutes. The Spectra lines are very thin but can handle 750 pounds. You put a weaklink on that that can handle 200 pounds (about). Why do you need a stronger bridle line? So far there is very little wear on the bridle line.
Bob uses Vectran for the three point bridle. The Vectran leg goes to the keel. Vectran is used because it can handle the heat generated when the Spectra line on the shoulders is released and slides through the loop at the end of the Vectran.
Bob's aerotow shoulder-only bridles costs $8. The three point bridle costs $15. You'll also need to get a barrel release:
and either the larger or smaller one with work fine. I use the larger one.
Bob Lane said that Quest Air sold over 40 of their bridles (and Bob sold 15 or 20) during the Nationals. The Quest Air bridles use thicker Spectra and are designed not to whip around and accidentally tie themselves to the carabineer. Bob says his bridles will not do this either.
It is great to see these safer, simpler, and easy to use aerotow bridles becoming popular.
...determined that long thin ones were much safer.
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...you're in a lockout and I can tell by the way you're progressing that you're never gonna get into a lockout.
Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
- Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that only crappy pilots need top notch equipment.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
- Just stay inside the Cone of Safety, always release the towline before there is a problem, and use either a standard aerotow weak link, one of those Alden Aviation mostly sawn through towlines, anything else that's on the verge of disintegrating under normal tow tension, or that Mike Robertson two stage that Don Arsenault slammed back down on the desk and you'll be fine.
15:20
- You have two Bailey "Releases".
- You're having trouble prying one of them open under NORMAL towline tension when it's feeling HALF the load.
- You're not using a weak link.
- What do you think is gonna happen when you lock out, your towline is pulling three times the tension, you manage to pry your starboard Bailey open, your skinny Spectra bridle ties itself to the towline, and your port Bailey is feeling six times the tension it is in these straight and level drills you're doing?
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
I got a call a few minutes ago and was told a pilot by the name of Bob Buxton had an accident while PL towing near Phoenix. This is second and maybe third hand information. Or maybe I'm farther down the line than that even.
I was told that he had the towline over the base tube by mistake and he locked out and pounded in hard. He is still with us and hopefully will recover.
I looked on the members only USHPA board and see only one Robert Buxton with a long HG career but no PL sign off.
I can only recommend a check list be taped to the platform and that it be followed religiously. Good luck to you Bob.
Any details would be appreciated to aid me/us in not repeating this accident.
I was told that he had the towline over the base tube by mistake and he locked out and pounded in hard.
So what was stopping him from aborting the tow when he realized things were going a bit more southerly than usual? Oh, right. Hang glider pilots only use releases that can only be actuated when everything's going right.
Carole Sherrington - 2012/09/23 23:52:53 UTC
Chelmsford, Essex
If it's got to the point where you have to release because of an impending lock-out, taking your hands off the control bar won't make much of a difference.
If it's gotten to the point where you have to release because of an impending lockout, taking your hands off the control bar shouldn't make much of a difference.
He is still with us and hopefully will recover.
Let's hop in our time machine and set it for a week ago.
Think we can engineer something such that he can push a button on the end of a wire going up his sleeve that'll blow the bridle off of his hips for a quarter of the cost of his parachute that did him no good whatsoever and a ten thousandth of the cost of putting him back together as well as possible?
Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.
There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.
A bit odd that his weak link didn't break before he got into much trouble.
I looked on the members only USHPA board and see only one Robert Buxton with a long HG career but no PL sign off.
Yeah. No way something like that would've happened if he had had a platform signoff.
I can only recommend a check list be taped to the platform and that it be followed religiously.
1. Yeah Bill, I'm sure that that's all you can recommend. Hang gliding people lost the ability to conceive of release systems which can be used to abort tows in emergencies thirty years ago.
2. How sure are you that there WASN'T a check list taped to the platform and normally followed religiously? When routines get disrupted and people get rattled some of those best laid plans...
Good luck to you Bob.
Yeah, good luck to you, Bob. Whenever we gear equipment for best case scenarios luck is what we inevitably end up trying to fall back on from time to time.
2010/01/17 - Martin Apopot
2010/10/13 - Lemmy Lopez
2011/01/15 - Shane Smith
2012/06/16 - Terry Mason
2012/10/03 - Bob Buxton
I sure hope the people in that neck of the woods who AREN'T plowing in and getting hurt and killed are having enough fun to make the towing worth the cost.
