Releases

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods
Rick Maddy - 2009/04/14 14:34:51 UTC

My first reaction to the Koch release is that I don't like the idea of a big, solid hunk of metal being out in front on me.
Especially not after you've been spoiled rotten by those stubby chintzy little aluminum barrels of Bobby's - that are ten times more difficult to access and twenty times more likely to be inoperable if/when you do.
And where does it get stored after release?
Same place it is before release.
I'm not stuffing that between my chest and harness like I do a V-line cord.

I'd love to hear more real world experiences from the folks that use the Koch release.
It's been around since at least half past 1985 ferchrisake. And - compared to the absolute crap that the Industry Standard assholes put up for aerotow on this side of the Atlantic - it works flawlessly.
Craig Hassan - 2009/04/14 15:10:21 UTC

The only part of my get up I change between scooter and areotow is the weak link.
Why? How much difference is there in the two flavors of towing between the tension - sorry, PRESSURE - coming through the line required to break your glider?
I use the same 2 barrel set up I always use. Keeping things familiar is more comforting to me!
Yeah Craig, when you're raised in a shit heap it makes you real nervous to swim in crystal clear spring water.
Rick Maddy - 2009/04/14 15:15:41 UTC

Interesting. I know what I use for scooter towing. I didn't realize it could be used for pro-tow aerotowing. Do you have a picture showing everything from your shoulders to the tow line?
Ask him how everything performed under the requirements of FAA and USHGA regulations.
Craig Hassan - 2009/04/14 15:52:22 UTC

It is just a barrel on each shoulder and 4' or 5' so bridal.
What's the "thinking" behind a four or five foot bridle? Or is it just something you grew fond of while wallowing in the shit heap?
I use a weak link on the left hand side, since I release the right side 99.9% of the time.
- What do you use for a weak link and what's the "thinking" behind that rating?

- So you're using a cheap bridle about ten times longer than it needs to be and you're just gonna use one weak link 'cause there's NO FUCKIN' WAY it's gonna wrap after that weak link blows.
I can hit the release without looking almost always on the first try. (Almost is not 100% and the time I really need to hit it I'll probably miss!) I also still have to let go of the base bar to activate it.
Hard to imagine any of those little shortcomings spelling the difference between life and death for you - or anyone else.
On guy took a bit of string and attached it to the rear of his barrel and holds it in his hand. All it takes is a flick of the wrist. Still has to remove his hand from the bar, but it is a much quicker release than reaching out to the barrel!
How much quicker?
( and the pin doesn't get a chance to snap back on your thumb! OUCH! )
And of course we wouldn't wanna bother incorporating THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312402264/
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


technology which eliminates all of the potential failure modes and control compromises and gives you that fastest possible response time 'cause damn near all the time we can survive using the chintzy crap you're talking about.
Adi Branch - 2009/04/14 16:49:05 UTC
Adi you must be asking about the black thread, which is the weak link.
Ah sorry, I'm used to seeing enclosed aluminium weak links...
It's as stupid to use Tost weak links for aerotowing as it is the Koch two stage. We can do both jobs a lot lighter, cheaper, cleaner, better with technology that's already been developed.
...which again takes me to my question a couple of posts up...
Adi Branch - 2009/04/14 17:08:18 UTC
My first reaction to the Koch release is...
It doesn't get stored, it's attached to the harness itself, with the arm bits in your towing loops. It doesn't droop down, or flail about etc.
It works great for pro towing, as to release you just bang your hand against it, the big paddle is easy to hit... it's instant.
It's a nice, well made, reliable, durable piece of hardware but it's WAY overbuilt and not efficiently engineered.
Rick Maddy - 2009/04/14 17:18:44 UTC

Isn't there worry about a belly landing with that big hunk of pointy metal on your chest?
Ya know what's a couple of thousand times more likely to get you fucked up but good even in a fairly well controlled landing? Being upright with a couple of very light, easily breakable aluminum tubes in front of your hands.

Image

So how come everybody's a couple of thousand times more worried about pancaking in on a Koch release?
That issue aside, can you describe the benefits of this type of release over the typical two barrel release used in the US. Thanks.
Adi Branch - 2009/04/14 17:43:25 UTC

You'd be hard pressed to squash it into your chest, even on a belly landing. I've rolled in on one and you don't even notice it. Even on a full bar out belly landing (?) you'd have to be in some weird position to squash it into you.

Advantages over barrels? I've never used barrels (only seen them on tandem setups) but the obvious advantage is a release in a fraction of a second. Just bang your hand back into the paddle.
That totally sucks in comparison to sliding your hand inboard on the basetube or pulling or letting go of a string in your teeth.
They're also used a lot in winch towing...
Good place for them. Leave them there.
One release for the lower line, one for the upper... The paddle does both of course in an emergency.
In the US there's no such thing as an emergency if you've read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, taken tandem Cone of Safety training with Dr. Trisa Tilletti, and used a standard aerotow weak link which has the expectation of breaking before you can get into too much trouble.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Steve Davy - 2011/02/07 04:08:04 UTC

On my tenth tow the bridle snapped back and wrapped around the base tube. I was able to get it free. Only ten tows and already I was having a problem. I quit towing after that.
miguel - 2012/05/31 22:57:42 UTC

The glider had a bicycle handle release. When it came time to release, it would not release and in fighting with it, it came loose on the downtube, rotating around it. Fighting with it put the glider in the beginnings of lockout so I flew the glider. I noticed that the truck had stopped but the reel was free wheeling. I had done step towing before so I flew large circles around the towline and landed into the wind. I kissed the ground and swore never to tow a hang glider again.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Just for the record...
elaeroplano - 2010/04/26

Hangglider winchTowing / towing line wraped over link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beXA-lAcBTo

11-1746
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3903/14469393503_8cc9d91d60_o.png
Image
Image
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5544/14426095776_d0d4022b3b_o.png
14-2227

during preparing to an winch towing hanggliding flight the towing line wrapped over the towing link .
a very dangerous happening.
to all hanggliderpilots !
check the towingline at your link before launching !!
This is NOT a failure of the release. It's, as the pilot says, a (rather forgivable but potentially lethal) preflight inspection failure - one I guarantee you that guy won't ever make again.

I'm thinking a launch dolly would make that mistake harder to make and easier to catch.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Responding to Antoine's post at:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post3337.html#p3337

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8

08-04124
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250952182_7b9f29e9d6_o.png
Image
11-04309
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250951712_f751da927a_o.png
Image
14-04604
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250878351_fa79a21af8_o.png
Image
15-04610
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250878176_35b2cb57c6_o.png
Image
17-04713
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250950977_9287d3f957_o.png
Image
18-04803
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250877846_577923f27b_o.png
Image
21-04811
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250877516_11538eb058_o.png
Image
22-04817
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250950367_02d5ea6fc2_o.png
Image

Wow! I have no idea why - since he appears to be using a Koch two stage anyway - he's doing it that way, but that's brilliant! And SO SIMPLE! Wish I had thought of it.

You could launch with a one point aerotow assembly coming off your shoulders and then switch to anything you wanted - three-string truck tow or another aerotow assembly - coming off your hips.

And if you dolly launched you launch with an emergency release aerotow assembly (string in your teeth - Three-String or Remote Barrel).

Safer, cheaper, lighter, cleaner, stowable. Only downside is the cost of the inconvenience of making the second stage connection in flight.

Must be nice to live on a continent without a Flight Park Mafia keeping everyone safe by forcing them to use only equipment with long track records.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland
Sander van Schaik (sanderdelta) - 2012/11/28

On the October 12th it was the last day we could winch tow at the Buizerd (the local hang gliding club in the Netherlands). I edited a video of three flights into one video while I was step towing to 500 meters.
Mark Dowsett - 2012/11/29 10:33:25 UTC

I've never seen anyone 'transition' (to under the bar towing) like that.
Hell, Mark, I'm pretty sure you've never seen a hook-in check.
Seems complex and risky.
- Seems the precise opposite to me.
- What's he risking?
- Wanna see risky?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba_rO_VAhGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
tow.MPG
larswet - 2012/02/26
17-0617
Image
31-0923
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


So how come I never hear anything from you on shit like those?
Do you not have a two stage bridle on you ?
No. He doesn't have ANY bridle on him. He has a two stage RELEASE on him. Do try to learn the difference.
Why not use a Y-bridle?
- A "Y-bridle" isn't a bridle.
- From 0:47 to 0:49 he's in the conventional configuration. Why does he need to be in it any longer?
Hat way you don't have to link in the under-bridle...
Yeah. So?
...then release the top...?
If he wants to continue climbing he needs to release the top - no matter how he's configured when he launches.
deltaman
Posts: 177
Joined: 2011/03/29 11:07:42 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

I find that risky too and don't understand why you don't.
The guy take 5 seconds to switch releases at 15-20m AGL with eyes on its devices..
During 5 sec he has got only 1 hand on the base bar and won't be really confortable in turbulent air with a stalled tip..
Don't understand the goal either.. Y system works fine.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I have no idea why he's doing it that way and it DOES seem that the conventional Y-line configuration would be better as things are... However...

- At about that altitude he's going to be taking a hand off the basetube anyway - granted, though, for a much briefer period.

- If the air's rough and he starts getting in trouble he can abort the effort or, if necessary, the tow - just as he would if configured conventionally.

- When he makes the connection and/or transition isn't time critical. If he's late the line's going to start pushing the bar back with gradually increasing force but all that does is start limiting his climb and is, to some extent, a self correcting problem.

- Having the bar pushed back is better than having it pulled forward - which is what a Hewett / two to one bridle does.

- There's a guy on the other of the line who should be watching him and can reduce tension/speed to help him out if he's having a little trouble.

- The more line you have out the higher the glider can be before having to deal with the transition.

- The Koch two stage is a fairly nice piece of hardware but it's overbuilt, not efficiently engineered, requires a hand to come off, is susceptible to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beXA-lAcBTo


issue, and a problem which either caused outright...
Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/15

Mike Nooy's release was triggered but at the angle of the rope that was greater than 90 degrees to the 'finger' at its max open point, so the rope did not come off the end. The release 'finger' was mounted firmly to the front of the harness, as with all the H.S. systems. We call them Euro tow systems.

The release 'finger' pivoted only horizontally and less than 180 degrees. The finger should be able to pivot vertically as well as horizontally and in excess of 180 degrees to release in any direction. It needs a UNI joint, like found on a car tail shaft but smaller and covered so it will not snag.
...or heavily contributed to a near fatal, devastating crash.

- You need to ready and equipped as best you can to handle low level lockouts but the reality is that:
-- the vast majority of serious low level lockouts are pilot induced: and
-- turbulence, gust, thermal, dust devil induced low level lockouts are rare and virtually totally avoidable.

I would predict that with halfway competent people on both ends of the line you'd see zero serious problems with this approach. And if you have a pilot who isn't halfway competent then keep him on the conventional Koch two stage configuration and in smooth air until he is.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

P.S. Sander could make that connection faster and easier if, instead of the snap hook, he used a simple aluminum nonlocking carabiner like this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312398111/
Image

and just swiped it on the outside of the tow ring, instead of inserting it up through the middle and hooking it.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

P.P.S. This situation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


was precipitated by:
- a clueless driver with a lead foot; and
- (thanks psuguru) the under line being too short and limiting the pilot's pull in range.

The second issue is easily avoidable and should never have happened - but using Sander's configuration it CAN'T happen.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland
Mark Dowsett - 2012/11/29 22:22:58 UTC

We use the two-stage bridle as he does but we have a split y-bridle instead of that crazy, reach-down-clip-another-line AND THEN release the over-the-line rope.
I didn't see him having a problem with that crazy, reach-down-clip-another-line, AND THEN release the over-the-line rope, Mark. Did you?
And all that metal in front of the pilot's face...yikes!
ALL North American one point aerotowers fly with carabiners in front of their faces. Granted, they're aluminum and wouldn't pack much of a punch anyway... But when was the last time you heard about anybody getting so much as a knuckle tapped by one?

I get so tired of hearing about this bullshit. Always fly with a backup loop in case the main blows, never tow with metal in front of your face 'cause you might lose a tooth or an eye.

The danger when something between the glider and the other end of the string blows is NOT getting hit in the face with some metal. It's...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...whipstalling and getting your fuckin' neck broken upon impact with the runway. So just make sure you never fly with shit that has any possibility of breaking.

Find something REAL to worry about or shut the fuck up.
Post Reply