Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Miller Stroud - 2013/07/02 16:48:01 UTC

All I can say is WOW!

I'm guessing not.

I probably have at least a hundred tows behind a truck...

Oh good. A wealth of data comparable to what you get from a Saturday at Ridgely.

...but surface towing not platform towing.

Platform is a flavor of surface towing.

We use weak links.

For what purpose(s) and how many Gs and why? Just kidding.

I use a two stage release (over and under the bar). We too had trouble with pins, but not the pin but the grommet folding under pressure that required a cut away.

Sounds like something that was really well designed to handle the job, especially given that you're using a constant tension / payout winch.

I hate releases that require a string under tension to release. Usually they are way out front where you cannot get to them. Bad stuff.

I agree with you. So can I put you down as being on board with telling Peter Birren to go fuck himself?

I used a Kotch...

It's a KOCH. It's pronounced COKE.

...carbon for awhile until the holes became worn and it became unreliable due to premature releases.

Just makes it safer. Might prevent a lockout in the highly unlikely event that your weak link fails to. Good trade for some minor inconvenience.

I eventually developed my own two stage release using two link knives made by Peter Birren.

Whoa! Now there's a name I haven't heard for a while! Was kinda expecting him to wade in and set us all straight on the alleged Zack Marzec fatality. He's the only one with the street cred to be able to pull it off.

They are very short in length and are always accessible and will release under no pressure.

At this point I could say the same thing about a hook knife - or a lit propane torch.

My releases lay together and can both be pulled with one action releasing both.

Still.

As for the problem of the first release causing a weak link failure of the second during release, we have solved that problem through communication with the tow operator.

Sorry, please explain to me how a weak link failure is a PROBLEM. In aerotowing we'll get up to six in a row. You don't mess with safety margins like that - 'specially with equipment that has huge track records.

I usually tow with thirty pounds of drum tension.

And I drive on the beltway with the pedal depressed about twenty-five square centimeters. Does that sound to be about the right speed to you? Think I should maybe slow it down a couple of tablespoons when it's raining?

After initial takeoff I notify the driver before I release the first release. He reduces the drum pressure to ten pounds...

How many pesos is that at the current exchange rate?

...still enough to keep the line tensioned but greatly reduces the shock load on the second release weak link.

Sorry, I've forgotten how many volts that one was. Would you mind refreshing my memory?

Upon completion he resumes to normal tow pressure...

Is that normal Fahrenheit or Centigrade?

...and the tow continues.

My release attaches on lower tow loops on my Covert. I have seen some pilots attach to there leg loops but I cannot say that is safe as there are so many different harnesses out there.

What colors?

My release works for me.

Robin Strid's release worked for him an all but one flight of his towing career. That's a pretty damn good track record if you ask me. You still have maybe a third of your towing career to go, so - according to my calculations - his record is about 2.7 Imperial Gallons (about twelve furlongs) better than yours.

I feel very safe using it...

About how safe - on a scale of Clark's Nutcracker to Black-Tailed Prairie Dog?

...and I get a fresh weak link on every tow.

About how many kilohertz do you figure you lose from your weak link over the course of a tow?

I included a pic.

Couldn't you have just described it?

I hope those that read this don't get a TAD bit confused.

Fuck no! You:
- tow surface instead of platform
- use fresh weak links for unspecified gliders
- had a release:
-- grommet deform under tow pressure
-- lanyard that required tension
- previously used a Kotch release
- use Linknives that work under no pressure
- tow with thirty pounds of drum tension
- drop the drum pressure to ten pounds for stage transition

How could anybody possibly be confused about anything when you haven't given us any actual coherent information and use meaningless units picked and substituted on varying whims?

You can see my release working in the following link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7CSUr-qwro

Super. Get back to us when you have a video of yourself blowing tow in an emergency situation. Or designate someone to post it if you don't manage to do any better than Mike Haas or Steve Elliot did with theirs.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 17:26:59 UTC

Deltaman - 2013/07/02 16:40:41 UTC

It's not a question about damage but about actuation force to become uncomfortable or so hard that it's really not appropriate for any emergency situation (not always at 1000ft).

I have not had a problem releasing with a barrel release in aerotow situations with high pressure. Lately aerotowing in difficult circumstances I have pulled the pin in less than a second, both close to the ground and all of 100 feet up. There is no noticeable actuation force on my part. It feels like nothing.

Go fuck yourself.

Deltaman - 2013/07/02 17:38:54 UTC

but Macsux's friends, Lauren Tjaden, Bart Weghorst, and Scorl did...

But DAVIS DIDN'T. And if Davis can use a piece of equipment a bunch of times without breaking his fucking neck than it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to have any dangerous deficiencies.

I personnaly tested the pin barrel at high load and it's really hard as you can see on the Scorl video (4 attempts !!) and sometimes you have no second to waste.
Absolutely NO REASON not to prefer and use a straight pin barrel 3.3 easier to release which never had any failure in the air !

But DAVIS hasn't had any problems with it.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 17:43:53 UTC

I've had hundreds of aerotows and witnessed many thousands more. I've never seen nor personally heard of any problem releasing with a barrel release.

And hell, even if you do you can just delete the post, lock the thread down, and ban the author.

I just oversaw the 2013 World Championships in Australia as the meet director where the over whelming majority of pilots used barrel releases for approximately a thousand tows. Not a single release problem.

Yeah, you can accomplish absolute miracles with these releases...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...when you mandate really safe fishing line.

I know two of your correspondents.

Your point being? Pigfucker?

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 18:01:38 UTC

Also, let me put it this way, looking at the video it is pretty clear to me that he would have been in a lot less trouble if he had had a barrel release rather than the non-functioning release and the knot that he had.

And looking at the photos of this stupid dickhead:




it is pretty clear to me that he would have been in a lot less trouble if he hadn't gotten on a known defective launch dolly with a Davis Link being his only realistic release option.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 18:02:03 UTC

Did you miss this one?

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 10:07:51 UTC

Can you give a few more details of this incident?
Mechanical jam, loop around a handle, was it the cause of the accident or was it just the release type he happened to be using at the time?

Can you give a few more details of this incident?
Mechanical jam, loop around a handle, was it the cause of the accident or was it just the release type he happened to be using at the time?

Davis is a major component of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching. I would certainly like to make it safer. What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer.

...the sport's cover-up and disinformation machinery. He's genetically predisposed to obstruct any and every positive effort anybody makes to get any problem fixed.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 18:56:10 UTC

Miss this one?
Car static line tow, thermal at the time of launch.
http://ozreport.com/4.010.0
http://ozreport.com/4.014.1
http://ozreport.com/4.028.2
http://ozreport.com/4.031.3

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 19:35:40 UTC

What I meant was did you miss my question a few posts back.

Yeah, very deliberately.

Anyway...

http://ozreport.com/4.10
Oz Nats - bad day in the tow paddock

Davis Straub - 2000/01/12

Mike takes off and of course his nose is high, which has been quite common today. He's yawing to the right and left very quickly back and forth as the dust devil is right under him. His glider then yaws very fast and hard to the left and immediately dives very hard into the ground from twenty or thirty feet. It is obvious as soon as the glider whips to the left that he is in very bad trouble.

What part of this accident is due to the pilot having a Koch release?

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 19:55:51 UTC

Did I say that any part of it was due to the Koch release?

No. You wouldn't get any kicks out of a direct statement to help move anything in a positive direction. You've gotta be twisting and sabotaging things to get real enjoyment out of life.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 20:12:48 UTC

Fair enough.
To make it quite clear the pilot just happened to be using a Koch release at the time and this did not contribute to his downfall. Yes?

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 20:21:13 UTC

I didn't say that either.

Yeah Davis, there's a tremendous amount you can learn about someone by listening to all the things he doesn't say.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 20:33:32 UTC

I certainly wouldn't want to put words in your mouth that would be most impolite.

A stake through his heart on the other hand...

So, did it contribute to his downfall? If so in what way please?

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 20:35:27 UTC

I'm addressing the issue of barrel releases, only.

Yeah, it would probably be a good idea for you to stick to your area of expertise.

I was looking for something small, easily stored, aerodynamic, thin so it gets out of my way right away, easily stored but also creates less drag if I don't put it away, much stronger than my weak link. Any thoughts?

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 20:53:09 UTC

Oh come on why the blatantly obvious sidestep?

Because it's Blatantly Obviously Sidestepping Davis you're dealing with.

A simple polite question related to the type of release used with a winch tow system, well on topic I would say.

It's Davis's cult. It doesn't matter what YOU would say.

Possibly more so than barrel releases don't you think?

If anything were more so than bent pin barrel releases don't you think it would be amongst the Useful Goodies Davis sells?

Phil Chett - 2013/07/02 20:53:47 UTC

Mr. Davis is being very clever with words.

Mr. Davis has never been clever with anything at any point in the course of his entire miserable existence.

He is distracting you from the discussions at hand.

That's all he ever does with any discussion of any substance.

Ignore him.

Why? He's doing a pretty good job of continuing to make himself irrelevant.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 20:58:00 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=22

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 21:12:55 UTC

Nice link, if it was for my benefit.

If you REALLY want a nice link for your benefit, it's really hard to go wrong with...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...a single loop of Cortland 130 pound Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line placed at one end of a shoulder bridle... like THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


But sometimes an inappropriate one which keeps you going to the back of the launch line has its advantages as well. A lot depends on the day.

However, I have no idea what it had to do with my simple on topic question.

What, you were expecting something of substance?

So, Mike Nooy, his accident, you know, the one you witnessed, the Koch release, did it play any part in this unfortunate man's downfall. If so what part?

I'm guessing it was large, stored only with difficulty, not aerodynamic, thick so it stayed in his way right away, stored only with difficulty, draggy if I he didn't put it away, not much stronger than his weak link.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 21:20:04 UTC

I don't see any discussion of Koch releases as being on topic.

Well obviously then if YOU don't see any discussion of a towline release designed to release a towline as being on topic on a topic about somebody almost being killed because he couldn't release from a towline then it's not on topic. It's obviously not small and easily stored, ferchrisake.

The topic in my view is: "Why not a simple barrel release?"

And that's exactly what it's titled: "Can't release the tow line". Lemme repeat... "Why not a simple barrel release?"

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 21:58:49 UTC

My bad.
I thought the topic was "Can't release the tow line", at least that's what is says at the top of my screen.

Mine too. "Why not a simple barrel release?" What part of that are you having so much difficulty understanding?

Now a Koch release is usually pretty good at that especially for winch tow systems just like the one in the video at the start of this thread.
I would guess my posts and others that mention 'Koch releases' are therefore pretty much on topic.

Bullshit. The Koch release is obviously not a Useful Goodie.

In fact others brought up the subject so I would guess they think so too.

They're not Davis. So what's it matter what they think?

But I would really like to know if my Koch release is going to make me go upside down any time now, wouldn't you?

Well, Davis is certainly one of this hemisphere's top authorities on...



...releases. And he's been at an around all that plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. Barring some participation from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney or Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey I think you'll be hard pressed to do better.

I understand if you have something to hide, that's fine, it's your forum after all.

Got that right.

But, being a witness to an accident makes you a valuable resource in that respect.

I so much prefer it when he's a victim of an accident.

So how about sharing that experience and tell us Koch users what part the release played in Mike Nooy unfortunate accident. Please I might add.

I got a few other items I might add.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 22:05:46 UTC

Something to hide?
You mean like the NSA?

More like Quest, USHGA, Davis.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 22:11:08 UTC

Don't be silly. I wouldn't know if it's something you want to hide now would I?
What about my question then?

I'm sorry, what was the question?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Angelo Mantas - 2013/07/02 22:23:04 UTC

I static and truck (payout) towed for almost twenty years. Something no one's mentioned here, why no radios?

Fer starters...

http://vimeo.com/68791399

2013/06/15 hang gliding tow release fail with parachute deployment

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/16487544910_41f57852ac_o.png
109-15221

Lin Lyons - 2013/06/20 18:38 UTC

I kicked my feet out of the harness to indicate that I had a problem. (But they already knew that.)

We always used radios when static towing, we used them to call down for more pressure (or less)...

- There is no PRESSURE involved in a static towing system. You're calling down for changes in SPEED which translate to changes in TENSION.
- That's not a safety issue.

...but more importantly to let the driver/tow operator know if something was wrong.

Like what?

As someone did mention earlier, the operator should have released/cut the line, but from the ground, it might not have been apparent until too late.

Read the fuckin' report before you start commenting on the fuckin' incident.

Radios kept many situations from getting out of hand during my static towing years.

Why? 'Cause you were going up with releases that didn't work and/or couldn't get to while your drivers were watching tension gauges instead of the goddam gliders?

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 22:40:21 UTC

Look Mr. Pud, I'm not hiding anything, obviously. You appear to be a troll talking about something that I really have no interest in.

Competence, safety, engineering, equipment designed to do the designated jobs...

Please go bother somebody else.

I'd much rather watch him bother you.

Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/02 22:58:18 UTC
York, Western Australia

where the hell is your damn weak link?????????

What the hell does a damn weak link have to do with anything in this situation, asshole?

only FOOLS tow without one...

Only TOTAL FUCKING MORONS expect a weak link to be of the slightest benefit in the course of a flying career.

if you cant tow with a weak link without fear of it breaking go and get proper tow lessons!!!!!!!!

From a top notch tandem aerotow instructor like Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Ben Dunn, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, or Zack Invisible-Dust-Devil Marzec.

Use a Llinknife, they work every time and it simply does not matter how much tension is on the line.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

existance is a state of mind, choose your emotion wisely

The lower your IQ the more important it becomes to run a spellcheck before you click "submit".

Total fucking douchebag.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Greendog - 2013/07/02 23:11:01 UTC
Queensland

I had a similar situation on a vehicle tow launch not long after attaining my restricted HG licence. I tried to release and the release line had snagged around the bridle inhibiting the shackle from releasing. There were a few options available - (1) pull the line in till I could directly release the shackle; (2) use my hook knife which I have tethered to my harness ensuring it can be retrieved if dropped; (3) use my radio to communicate with the tow driver (4) hope the weak link worked; or (5) panic and probably die.

I chose option 3, advised my predicament, asked him to keep driving so I could descend and land behind him ensuring that the tow line stayed slack and clear of any obstacle that it could snag on and thus avoid any potential for lockout. The key learnings for me out of this were:
- prevent the chance of the release line snagging by correctly positioning it pre-launch
- check immediately after launch that the lines have not snagged
- always fly with a radio and check reception as part of the pre-launch procedure

It seems to me that if the pilot in this instance and the winch operator were connected by radio then this could have been easily avoided.

I tried to release and the release line had snagged around the bridle inhibiting the shackle from releasing. There were a few options available - (1) pull the line in till I could directly release the shackle

Option 1 was to use a fuckin' Koch two stage which doesn't have lanyards to misroute, bridles to snag, and out-of-reach shackles to be inhibited from opening. Use the best equipment for the job so you minimize your chances of having a bad day and don't waste everybody's time discussing the best procedures to use when you have a problem with / failure of your second, third, or fourth rate cheap piece of junk.

...hope the weak link worked...

Hope the weak link worked to WHAT?

The function of the weak link, contrary to what you were taught by BHPA, is NOT to detect a release malfunction or the comfort or distress level of the pilot and adjust its breaking strength to execute the best decision in the interest of your safety.

The function of the weak link is to PREVENT OVERLOAD.

- And trying to gear it for a job other than that is one of the best ways you can come up with to get crashed.

- And if you wanna try to use either a weak link that you've tried to gear for other jobs or a weak link properly geared for its real job you better be really high.

...always fly with a radio and check reception as part of the pre-launch procedure

Radios when used for noncritical issues like coordinating launch and adjusting tension are great.

Radios used to deal with in-flight emergencies SUCK.

At least until you're at a reasonably safe altitude your driver or at least an observer in communication with him needs to be watching the glider. On tow your driver is at least a copilot and quite frequently the Pilot In Command. A person involved in piloting a glider needs to be watching it and reacting as quickly possible to what it's doing rather than waiting a radio broadcast of a description of what it's doing.

And radios while a radio check prior to launch may go just fine wind noise picks up, transmissions get misunderstood, wires get pulled, frequency buttons get pushed, batteries croak, and - probably most dangerously - no news is frequently assumed to be good news (btdt).

If your driver was the least bit qualified to be your driver it wouldn't have mattered that you had radio communications. He'd have recognized within a couple of seconds of what you did that you were stuck on tow and gently set you down exactly the way he did is it was which is exactly the way a ten year old kid sets the kite he's flying - which is ALWAYS stuck on tow - down when he decides to call it a day.

And these discussions about what to do if you find yourself stuck on tow are colossal wastes of time which could be productively spent developing, procuring, building, practicing using proper gear.

And, of course, that's exactly what The Industry wants. Keep buying their cheap junk and talking endlessly about dealing with it by using backup cheap junk, weak links, hook knives, radios, spiral descents, and parachutes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 23:14:55 UTC

Yah, that loose flopping around release line. Hard to find at times also.

Yah, stick with...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.




No loose flopping around release lines, you know right where your levers and barrels are at all times, and...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...a precision weak link to keep you from getting too far out of whack and into too much trouble.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 23:19:38 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 22:40:21 UTC

Look Mr. Pud...

Steady on old boy, I asked a simple question I'm trolling for nothing, honest, don't be so paranoid.

Ignore Mike, Davis. Be paranoid - there really ARE people out to get you.

Someone else brought up the subject remember I just asked for a bit of further information. No need for name calling.

Not from your dickhead correspondent anyway.

You could have elaborated a bit several posts back but instead you pursue some evasive tactics that can't be too good for your credibility.

What credibility?

Why not just answer the question?
I don't really care if you have something to hide or not...

I care. He does - PLENTY.

...that was just my response to you being difficult.

The asshole he is.

I fly with a Koch, if someone gets killed with a Koch I want to know why!
How is that trolling or unreasonable in any shape or form on a thread about someone's release that has just gone tits up?

It was pushed tits up. And I'da thunk they'd have been a lot better at spotting upward pointing tits at Mission's launch than they apparently are.

I appreciate the 'Mr. Pud', by the way, much better than being referred to as a third party 'Pud pud character'. Much more courteous.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 23:33:02 UTC

Mr. Pud, please do tell us when you have quit beating your wife.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 23:46:58 UTC

You devil, I see what you did there. If I say yes or no I'm in trouble, right? Very good.

My question was nothing like as clever and was never a 'catch you out type question'.
Did a guy have an accident due in some way to his Koch release? The answer can't get you in too much trouble, I wouldn't have thought.

Hard to go wrong, though, withholding, obfuscating, misrepresenting information about serious hang gliding crashes. Dodging accountability is the name of the game.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 23:48:27 UTC

I have no f***king idea.

Well stated. And so descriptive of where you are over so much of the scope of this sport.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 23:55:15 UTC

Thank you. That will do nicely if that's all you've got! That wasn't that hard was it?
Cheers.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:21:25 UTC

Listening to your insults is the hard part.

Why don't you come over hear and listen to some of mine, dickhead?

I will say one thing though. In the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) if getting off the line is the ticket...

*IF* getting off the line is the ticket?!?!?! Getting off the line is...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

... ALWAYS the ticket. To even QUESTION that cornerstone of hang glider towing safety is just some of...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. Coming off tow in a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) is, at the ABSOLUTE WORST, an...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.

...inconvenience. That's why we mandate Davis Links that blow at random...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...and applaud Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material. And Davis Straub, a highly respected leader in the world hang gliding community, is still...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

...totally on board with this. And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.

...I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such - just disconnects when they're talking to the general public - and it always boils down to semantics.

They're not confused - and it's a disservice to the sport when muppets such as yourself start questioning whether or not getting off the line in the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch is the ticket when it so very obviously...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

...is.

...then a mouth release as per the Russian style would in my opinion be the best option.

In my opinion it's just about impossible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM


...to beat a good Davis Link. Makes the decision for us, executes it infallibly and instantly, and eliminates all this "IF" bullshit - all at the cost of nothing more than a minor inconvenience now and then.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:21:25 UTC

I will say one thing though. In the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) if getting off the line is the ticket then a mouth release as per the Russian style would in my opinion be the best option.


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/mouthrekease2009.jpg

BULLSHIT.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

We just buried our friend and you want us to have a nice little discussion so that some Russian dudes who have a pet project can push their theories?

The Russians LOVE their mouth releases. BFD.

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... It's back-asswards.

Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs who jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:21:25 UTC

I will say one thing though. In the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) if getting off the line is the ticket then a mouth release as per the Russian style would in my opinion be the best option.


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/mouthrekease2009.jpg

- And let me be the first to thank you for everything you've done over the course of the past dozen or so years to help get these things into circulation.

- Oh. So in YOUR *OPINION* the best option would be something that lets you blow tow instantly with both hands on the basetube.

- Oh. So the Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) equipment that they've been perfecting for the past twenty years ISN'T the best option. But we can rest assured...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

...that Quest is actually working on something like this - and would've had it in circulation years ago were it not for the rantings of the fanatic fringe masking them.

- If those Russian designs are so great how come Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey doesn't just copy them and bend the gate a little more so they can be used with thicker ropes without using weak links?

- Oh. A mouth release as per the Russian style would in your opinion be the best option in the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) if getting off the line is the ticket. Not really an advantage in the case of a:

-- dust devil or thermal a hundred feet...

...over the runway

-- problem with...


...a launch dolly or other equipment

-- blown...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.

...launch

-- student...

BBC News - 2012/05/09

The glider then descended in a spiral and hit the concrete and asphalt runway and Miss Preston sustained a severe head injury.

The report said: "The instructor later commented that he had been startled by the speed with which the accident had happened and his impression was that the situation was not recoverable."

...pilot

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:21:25 UTC

I will say one thing though. In the case of a dust devil or thermal right at launch (any type of tow launch) if getting off the line is the ticket then a mouth release as per the Russian style would in my opinion be the best option.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:24:52 UTC
Another possible one:

http://ozreport.com/10.103#2

- Ya know Davis, those release assemblies look to me like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

...homemade funky shit. So what would be the point in equipping oneself for what, in your OPINION, would be the best option for blowing tow in a low level emergency?

- And make goddam sure you don't link to any of the stuff that...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305308635/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psucvollibre/6948550271

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psucvollibre/6948557519/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


...Steve Kinsley, Tad Eareckson, and Antoine Saraf worked their asses off to develop, refine, and get into circulation.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 00:31:13 UTC

I've posted long reply concerning messages similar to those that I see here on page 3 of:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Yeah, I know. I've been following it. This incident is a candy store and that's one of the coolest hang gliding videos I've ever seen.

There have been several comments that it took me too long.
That's true.
Next time I won't spend ten seconds fumbling with one hand.

When's next time gonna be?

There have been comments about a hook knife.

Yeah, hook knives are second only to weak links in topics dear to the hearts of hang glider tow "pilots".

Mine wasn't tied on, which will change.

Good. Then you won't be afraid to drop it the next time a locked up release has you plummeting at three thousand feet per minute.

However, having had considerable time to think about this, next time I'd do the same thing, only quicker.

You need to spend a lot less time thinking about what you're gonna do the next time and a lot more time thinking about how never to have a next time. Next time you're not gonna start at a thousand feet and you're not gonna survive.

There have been comments about the tow, and my only reply is that next time I tow it will be with the same operator.
He's very good.

Compared to whom? Another Mission winch driver?

He is NOT very good. And he proved it by:
- putting you up on crap equipment
- having crap equipment on his end
- having no fucking clue what a weak link is
- launching you without a:
-- release check
-- hook-in
- not getting down on his knees and begging for your forgiveness
- not publishing a report IMMEDIATELY
- not getting down on his knees and begging for hang gliding's forgiveness

There has been a lot of bickering here, which is too bad.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

If this sport had its shit together everybody would be on the same page with respect to the fundamentals and there wouldn't be any serious bickering about them. But what happened to you half past last month and how it was addressed is smoking gun evidence that this sport DOESN'T have its shit together. And violent bickering is the very least we can do and probably about the most we can do as well.

Davis here doesn't tolerate any real bickering on his site 'cause he and the industry for which he shills will lose.

Jack has started learning to stay out of some of these things 'cause he's said so many moronic things in the past that if he tries to take a stand on anything he'll get his head taken off within two or three minutes. Thus there's a lot more bickering and a lot more chance to get a few things fixed.

Kite Strings has got some really nasty Tad Clones on it but they're nasty because they don't like seeing the kind of shit that just happened to you and don't pull punches. And you'll notice that they're all on the same page and if you check their math you'll get exactly the same answers.

If you don't like bickering then go to places like:

http://www.chgpa.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/
http://www.ushawks.org/

They're all EXTREMELY concerned about civility but they're all bunches of incompetent sleazy shits. And if you take a route like that make sure you keep honing your hook knife and parachute skills.

It makes it harder to separate the messages that are worth reading, from the messages that aren't.

Yeah dude, it's a broken sport. What did you expect. But if you check the math and separate the messages accordingly you'll figure things out really quickly. And if you track down some of the people who've had their microphones cut you'll be able to figure things out a lot better and a lot faster.

Edit: Lordy sakes alive, where did that avatar...

http://www.jamiajournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Jesus-land.gif

...come from?

It's not that I disagree with it, but I surely didn't select it.
(I tried to load my pic, but it was 2 meg and wouldn't load.)

---
2022/04/04 00:00:00 UTC - It's up now:

---

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:36:29 UTC

Well, you might try loading something a lot smaller.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/03 00:45:04 UTC

Insults? Me? What insults?
A bit strong don't you think? I can see only the one insult and that's you calling me a troll. I guess you aren't likely to apologise for that any time now but I forgive you anyway 'cos I'm good like that and you thought I was trying to trap you in some way. A bit silly really.

Mouth release. Good idea.

As long as it:
- has no realistic chance of getting into circulation
- can't be traced back to Steve, Tad, and/or Antoine

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 00:52:54 UTC

A bit strong don't you think?

Not in the slightest and yes, you are a troll. Just a fact.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 01:04:28 UTC

Well, you might try loading something a lot smaller.

DUH.
I don't happen to have such.
And I'm not sure it's worth my time making it.
It would seem that the avatar rules are different everywhere.

btw, it's obvious that you know a lot.

About fucking people and the sport over and giving stupid people the impression that he knows what he's talking about... Yes.

It's unfortunate that you stoop to such comments.

Davis had to elevate himself half a dozen notches for that one.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/03 01:07:30 UTC

Name calling. A last resort for someone in the wrong it is said, Just a fact.
But I forgive you again 'cos I'm good like that.

I do a lot of name calling but I always check the math first to make sure it's accurate.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 01:10:31 UTC

Calling you a troll is like calling you a fisherman. You're trolling and you were.

Calling you a douchebag gives regular douchebags a bad name.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 01:13:22 UTC

It's unfortunate that you stoop to such comments.

What, to point out the obvious?

I mean, a 2 MB avatar? Come on.

And since it is a trivial exercise to make a smaller version of it, what is the problem with my witticism?

Enjoy it Lin. That's the best he can do in the way of a witticism.

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

He got his wiring seriously fucked up a long time ago.

The avatars are assigned randomly to those who don't assign their own. It could change tomorrow.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/03 01:18:03

You're trolling and you were.

No I wasn't and that's a fact. If you had answered my question (if you were able) to your delight I would have gone away, don't be so paranoid and don't call me a fisherman.

On The Davis Show a troll is anyone who knows what the fuck he's talking about and where the skeletons are hidden. Take it as a compliment.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 01:20:12 UTC

You, d**n fisherman.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/03 01:25:39 UTC

You'll have to try very very hard to discredit me, so I wouldn't bother.
Ok you apologise for calling me a fisherman and we'll call it quits.