Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Zack C - 2013/07/03 02:15:09 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/07/02 15:26:51 UTC

Back to the proposal that bent pin releases are inappropriate for platform towing due to failure at extremely high line loads.
Hopefully, it's clear already why I consider this argument to be nonsense.

No one uses (bent pin) barrel releases when surface towing (platform/payout or otherwise) around here because they lock up at higher tensions. We know this from experience.

Surface tow tensions are generally higher than aerotow tensions and most pilots use stronger weak links when surface towing than when aerotowing.

But when an aerotowed glider gets blasted up by a thermal the tension starts ramping up pretty fast and a bent pin barrel release would start getting overloaded... BUT there's a Rooney Link in the system to make sure you never get into too much trouble.

General thoughts...

This is The Davis Show. Thoughts really don't fit in with the protocol very well.

All releases should be protected by weak links...

Just make sure to go half strength if you put them on both ends of a bridle.

...and they should be tested on the ground up to at least the maximum tension allowed by said weak links.

But if Davis says he's never had any problems with them they'll be fine.

Hook knives (and parachutes) are useless if something happens near the ground. A release failure can be lethal. Good releases are absolutely critical to safe towing.

But safe towing is no real fun after you've nanny stated all the risk out of it.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 03:28:02 UTC

I actually let people discredit themselves by their own words. It rings so much truer then.

And when people people's words discrediting your ass are ringing too true you lock down their threads and ban them.

Zack, where is here?

Doesn't seem to be a problem at Blue Sky.

Unless you figure Holly Korzilius into the equation but, hell, that was over eight years ago.

I have much more recent experience with aerotow and the barrel releases available from the flight parks.

Of course you do. The flight parks drive out all the homemade funky shit they can to make sure nobody gets to see what solid equipment even looks like.

There is no concern about them.

There's no concern about ANYTHING that's killing people in this sport.

- Quest just splattered Zack Marzec on their runway because of a protoad bridle and a Rooney Link. And all of their remedial efforts were directed towards making sure nobody had any concern about protoad bridles and Rooney Links.

- When you assholes killed Robin Strid at the 2005 Worlds because the gate on his Industry Standard release snagged...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...the focal point of his safe towing system you made sure that there was no concern about industry standard releases and the focal point of the safe towing system and fear and hatred of stronglinks.

- Whenever a Bill Priday runs off a ramp without a glider because he had no concern about skipping hook-in checks all you industry motherfuckers triple your efforts to make sure nobody has any concerns about skipping hook-in checks.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 03:29:59 UTC

Zack C - 2013/07/03 02:15:09 UTC

A release failure can be lethal. Good releases are absolutely critical to safe towing.

Well, as we saw in the video.

What we saw in the video was a botched connection of a perfectly adequate release by a student and a failure to ensure that the system was airworthy by the tow operator who also failed to ensure that his end was up to anything resembling safe standards.

And what is a good release there?

And when the hell did you start giving a flying fuck about good releases anywhere? Wanna do something to improve the quality of releases in circulation? Recall all that cheap junk you peddle out of your "Oz Report's Useful Goodies" page.

Miller Stroud - 2013/07/03 03:59:46 UTC

Barrel releases would be my second choice.

Bent pin barrel releases of course. (I notice you haven't voiced a single note of concern about the bent pin release failures that have been reported in that thread.

I like my double release because I can pull both of them together with one motion. If I had not had so much success with it, the barrel releases would be my choice also.

Not interested the slightest bit in your success. I'm just interested in deficiencies that can crash the glider. And I don't hafta wait for the glider to crash to identify them. Taking a hand off the basetube while fighting a lockout WILL result in a severe loss of control, a severe loss of control in a lockout can and has killed people, and a release's ability to effortlessly blow fifteen hundred pounds of towline tension will have resulted in zero advantage.

If my choice is between a release that requires a twenty-five pound sideways tug to blow five hundred pounds towline but allows me to keep both hands on the basetube and one that requires a five pound pull to blow fifteen hundred but requires a reach guess which one I'm taking.

P.S. I notice your total absence from any of the discussions on the Zack Marzec fatality so I can only assume you didn't get the word. But we're all still at a total loss to explain what happened and why so I'd really appreciate it if you would review the material and give us your take. I'm certain that somebody with your dedication to towing safety would be only to eager to do so.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/03 04:12:58 UTC

I am so incredibly angry with this video, the poor fellow towing is obviously a novice and is being taught how to tow with so many safety violations that the instructor should have his certification revoked.

Yeah? How 'bout THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


video, novice, and instructor? Bryan was using the standard "safety" equipment EXACTLY as he was taught and, as a direct consequence, got his arm broken in three places and removed himself from the sport. Lin could've hopped on a borrowed glider and gone back up within an hour.

...this setup is a death trap.

Not much more of a death trap than any other stationary winch operation. Lin could've been a Hang Four with the same eighty tows under his belt and fucked up the three-string in an identical manner. The winch driver wouldn't have been terribly responsible for preflighting the three-string and in a low level lockout he could've easily been beyond the point of survival or quite dead by the time the driver could've freewheeled and/or cut the line.

I am amazed that the fellow is not dead and others that use this set up.

This fellow:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


IS dead.

- He was a Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor.

- He was using an obviously dangerous setup and fatalities resulting from three of its deficiencies and both of its relevant deficiencies have been reported in the magazine.

- Assholes all over the world use this insanely dangerous setup every day and Quest resumed its use probably on the first flight they pulled after getting the fatally crushed body off the runway.

I can only hope that this incredible video footage is enough to make the entire hanggliding community have a really good hard look at themselves and wonder how this group of people could (in this day and age) have a set up so dangerous as what we have just witnessed.

Any response to THIS:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...incredible video footage? Another Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor in Florida down the road a piece from Quest almost getting his stupid fucking neck broken entirely as a consequence of the more serious of the two deficiencies that got Zack killed.

I don't know about you but I'd rather be at a thousand feet stuck on tow with a parachute in my container than at a hundred feet wondering if I'm gonna be able to stay on it with nothing to slow me down if I can't but the runway.

A couple of points
1. no damn weak link !!

- How the fuck do you know there's no damn weak link?

- What's the strength - pounds or Gs - of a damn weak link?

- At what point in that sequence did the tow tension reach the strength of the damn weak link?

- Or was the damn weak link supposed to infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow when the towline tension exceeded the limit for safe operation?

- There was a damn weak link, almost certainly something in the vicinity of one G - which is a good rule of thumb.

whilst on that subject--I am sick and tired of idiots/fools that claim that a weak link is useless in winch towing-

Whilst on that subject... I am sick and tired of idiots/fools who claim that a weak link is of any value for any function other than preventing overload. And virtually NO ONE in hang gliding uses a weak link for that function. And even with a ten G weak link you'd have a hard time overloading an HGMA glider on tow on a bet.

a Koch system is antiquated crap causing jerks on the tow line...

- Wanna see a REAL jerk on a towline?





And there's another jerk on the other end of the towline who supplied the 914 Dragonfly power to that shithead with his crap:
-- Davis Link
-- Quallaby Release
-- bent pin backup release
-- primary bridle
-- secondary bridle
-- launch dolly
-- level of competence

- The Koch two stage system DOES NOT *CAUSE* jerks on the towline.

- So fucking what if there's a jerk on the towline? Is the glider gonna melt?

- Want a REAL jerk on the towline? Use a...



...Lauren Link on the end of your bridle.

- The jerk on the towline is elective and at a time of the pilot's chosing.

- The jerk on the towline can be minimized or eliminated by the driver easing off, the pilot pulling in, or both.

- And:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8

...have fiddly release mechanism...

- Get fucked.

- How 'bout Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden's...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...main and backup fiddly release mechanisms?

- And where's her damn weak link? Nobody claims that a weak link is useless in aerotowing and we all know that it will very clearly infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow when the towline tension exceeded the limit for safe operation for that form of towing. Hell she's locked out at the onset of her little clusterfuck so it's blindingly obvious she's no using one. Ditto for Jim Prahl at the tug end.

- Where the fuck were you when the forum shit hit the fan when the New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release - which is not warranted as suitable for towing anything - started confirming in the air over the US and France that it wasn't suitable for towing anything?

...and cause terrible chest injuries...

Name one - asshole.

...when you face plant...

- Here's a thought... DON'T FACEPLANT.

-- A good enough faceplant can make whatever happens to any other part of your body totally irrelevant.

-- 99.9 percent of faceplants are consequences of foot landing attempts in wheel landable environments and damn near all towing environments are wheel landable.

- The GROUND causes terrible chest injuries. I know that 'cause I went to the funeral of a guy I had mentored for the previous eight years who was killed on scooter tow because his effort to connect with and pull his three-string went unrewarded and he stayed on tow all the way to the ground. And I have every confidence that if he had been using a Koch chest crusher his chest wouldn't have been crushed and he could've continued scooter towing.

...STOP USING THEM you cannot keep justifying them no matter how shiny they are and no matter how many tows you have successfully done.

And switch to one of the other fine Industry products that has an excellent safety record.

2. Radio- or any form of communications with the driver ???

Yeah. He's got a signal system set up with the driver.

- When he tops out on the tow and finds that his release is jammed he stays on tow to signal the driver that his release is jammed. At that point the driver is supposed to respond by dumping tension and watching in horror.

- Similarly he can signal the driver that he's locking out to the left by locking out to the left. Driver's response is the same. For a right lockout he signals by locking out to the right and the driver understands that he needs to use the procedure for a lockout to the left.

- And the signal for a request for MORE tension is to climb very slowly.

Have I missed anything?

3. a pitch limiter that needs to be released-- why?

As opposed to a pitch limiter that DOESN'T need to be released. Like YOURS, right? Like that piece of fishing line you're using to keep your nose from getting too high?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that that's EXACTLY where you're coming from with that comment. Totally consistent with Trisa, Davis, Lauren, Dennis, Donnell, BHPA.

learn how to tow.

- The first thing you need to learn about how to tow is that there's no such thing as learning how to tow. You're on a roll unstable aircraft hopefully flying in unstable air that can convert you to the status of a passenger on a picnic table in a heartbeat.

- This motherfucker's abilities to control the glider on tow are as good as mine or anybody else's: left, right, up, down. Not all that complicated and one tends to reach the maximum attainable skill and reflexes by the second or third pull.

- Putting the moronic pitch limiter on the glider wasn't his idea. It was the idea of total fucking morons like Pat and Peter.

4. a bridle that is so damn long you cannot reach the release.

Like on a tug, sailplane, two point aerotow, or Hewett Bridle?

5. Chest towing for a ground tow ?? usually chest towing for aero tow.

Right. Like THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

Think about using a Hewitt bridle...

- HewEtt.

- Yeah. Do that. REALLY think about it. If you do you'll realize how incredibly clueless he was - and is. Ditto with respect to his cult followers.

- Lessee. The Koch two stage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8


...is antiquated crap. But think about...

Hang gliding - Dan explains the double-threaded tow bridle system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dvr9P_w5VQ
jwm239 - 2011/05/02
dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPZkrf94D4


...the Hewett / Two to One Bridle.

...it was designed...

Concocted.

...to proportionately distribute the tow forces between the pilot and aircraft.

- Which is supposed to accomplish what? Make the glider autocorrecting in roll and thus lockout proof?

- 150 pounds towline. Two to one bridle. 100 to the pilot, 50 to the hang point.

-- Two point / one to one bridle. 75 to the pilot, 75 to the hang point. 25 less, 25 more.
-- One point / pilot only bridle. 150 to the pilot, 0 to the hang point. 50 more, 50 less.

What performance and handling differences are we supposed to be seeing?

- Isn't whatever tension - 100, 75, 150 pounds that's going to the pilot transmitted through the harness suspension, carabiner, and hang strap to the same place on the glider's keel?

6. a driver that is asleep, dead or just plain stupid not to cut the rope...

He's awake and alive but too plain stupid to be using a guillotine or even have a hook knife available to cut the rope.

...or even back up for crying out loud.

- How do you back up a stationary winch?
- Seeing as how they're towing through a pulley wouldn't backing up tend to make the situation worse?

7. does this tow system have a release at the driver end? of so why wasn't it used?

Did you bother to read anything of the fucking report?

if not why the hell are you using it??

Because he's a fucking student and the Mission Soaring Center guys...

The Mission Soaring Training Program is a model for schools across the country. We are known for our well developed training program with an emphasis on the fun, intense and wonderfully empowering feeling of flight with a primary focus on safety. You will train with experienced, USHGA Certified Instructors. Our small classes provide plenty of personal attention - instruction is complete, flexible and tailored to each student from beginner through advanced skills.

...are the best of the best, the models to which all others aspire, are experienced, USHGA Certified Instructors, and...

The Mission Soaring Hang Gliding school provides professional training on state-of-the-art equipment at our dedicated training site at Tres Pinos just south of the San Jose / San Francisco Bay Area.

...use only state-of-the-art equipment which they are constantly upgrading. A week ago they all got red "Focused Pilot" wristbands, by the middle of this month they'll have a hook knife, and by early August they expect to have a snakebite kit and a bottle of SPF 45 sunscreen lotion.

6. unable to release despite the adrenalin fuelled efforts --use a release that will release under any tension and at ANY angle, is easy to reach and is infallible. this release obviously has none of these qualities.

THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE RELEASE - DOUCHEBAG. HE HOOKED IT UP WRONG.

Gawd I love it when total morons post stuff.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Zack C - 2013/07/03 05:05:10 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 03:28:02 UTC

Zack, where is here?

Houston.

And what is a good release there?

Not sure where 'there' is, but my definition of a good release (anywhere)

Oh. So release performance should be universal. It's just weak link strength that varies according to whether it's Kitty Hawk - Currituck or Kitty Hawk - Morningside.

...is one that will not release prematurely...

Yeah, that could be dangerous. It's just random premature Rooney Link blows that increase the safety of the towing operation.

..will always release when desired under any line tension up to the weak link breaking point...

130 pounds. Should be pretty easy to engineer something that'll handle that kind of load.

...and can be actuated immediately without compromising control.

That's really only important...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

Mouth releases for the first three seconds of the tow

...for the first three seconds of the tow - and, to prevent confusion, you should say so.

Also... You really don't want the release up at the trim point on the keel because...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Davis Straub - 2013/02/11 19:34:27 UTC

Second, a protow would have been much better here as the V-bridle allowed the carabineer to climb up toward the sail and pull the glider down. I showed this in another video that I believe I also posted here. For me personally, the 2 (or 3) point tow has caused more problems than the protow. But that is just my empirical experience.

...a three point bridle can allow the carabineer to climb up toward the sail and pull the glider down. Much better to fly protow - after you get proper instruction in how to do it, of course.

For a two stage release, the actuation criteria apply to both stages simultaneously as well as individually.

In THEORY. But in REALITY the kind of hardware that allows you to do that will crush your chest when you faceplant so it's much better to get some bent pin string crap from Steve Wendt because the danger of crushing your chest in a faceplant far outweigh the danger of having to fly a one handed low level lockout for an extra five seconds or so.

I haven't found anything for one point surface towing that meets all of those criteria.

You could make something. I would if I were gonna do much surface towing.

A good two point release (I use this one: http://www.nanoavionic.com/ - http://www.getoffrelease.com/) will work well for both aerotowing and surface towing.

For over/under towing, the only releases I've seen I'd use are the Koch and Miller's. I'm OK with straight pin barrels as well for only under or over.

Ever try to hook one of those up to a really thick rope without using a weak link? Betchya didn't think of that one, did you?

All three of these options are very reliable with less room for error than three string releases.

Some three strings have a different color for each string. I think this makes setting and inspecting them easier.

Why would anybody want to inspect them? Nobody does that at Mission and those guys are the best of the best and set the standards to which all others aspire.

Deltaman - 2013/07/03 09:54:34 UTC

EMERGENCY near the ground
Bridle over/under - 2 stages release

A KOCH allow you to release in 1 step in case of emergency.
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/images/kochklinke.jpg


This one, NOT !
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/bridles060106.jpg

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 12:44:20 UTC

Boy, and I thought I was mean.

Sorry Davis, I'm not seeing how warning the hang gliding public that frauds like Steve Wendt are pumping cheap, dangerous, bent pin crap into the market is being mean.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 16:08:48 UTC

By "there" I was referring to your statement about where you were, which is apparently near but I assume not in Houston. Not Sealy? Not aerotowing with Gregg?

Hey Gregg, wanna comment on the Zack Marzec freak accident and the revision of the USHGA aerotowing SOPs?

I spent months working on a revision proposal to try to prevent that from happening. Just took Trisa and your old committee five days to remove all the barriers protecting people from reruns.

I have linked to the Get Off numerous times in the Oz Report.

Yeah. You've linked to those Russian jobs zillions of times in the Oz Report. And that's done SO much to help get them into widespread circulation and cheap, dangerous, bent pin crap grounded. Rivals the AMAZING success you've had with...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...130 pound Cortland Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line.

Seems okay to me.

Well, if it SEEMS okay to YOU... What more could one possibly ask for in towing equipment.

http://ozreport.com/17.069#0
Keel release

Yeah! There's Joe's release! Right under Matt Taber's New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release - which is not warranted as suitable for towing anything!

I don't like three point releases personally.

Neither do I. After I've finished connecting to the pilot and glider I can never figure out what to do with the third end of the bridle.

So you don't use an over/under setup for high surface (winch?/ATOL?/payout?/static line?/truck?/car?/scooter?/elektro?) towing?

Is your release/bridle/line over or under the bar?

What's it matter? We can't figure out what the problem was with the Zack Marzec tow and we couldn't have a worse result so why not just do anything we feel like? I really can't see any other hope for advancement.

What is a three string release? Three ring circus?

Idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

William Olive - 2013/07/03 21:51:47 UTC

To me, the three string release is a version of the three ring circus made with strings replacing the metal rings.

To you? What is it to some other people?

I learned ground towing with one of these because they were pretty easy to make and also cost you only the price a piece of string.

And you didn't hafta load test them to weak link strength before you put them into the air.

I discarded them after a lockout on top of tow when I couldn't release.

Good thing you were at the top of the tow when you found that out, huh Billo?

The particular version I was using was quite capable of generating sufficient friction on the pin that it was absolutely impossible to release, well below the line tension it took to break a weaklink.

- Jesus H. Christ.
- What the fuck is "a weaklink"?

Luckily for me my driver that day was Cmac, and he was never never asleep at the wheel, unlike the operator for the chap in the OP video.

The motherfucker was asleep at the wheel when he let you hook up with the particular version you were using that was quite capable of generating sufficient friction on the pin to make it absolutely impossible to release, well below the line tension it took to break "a weaklink".

Cmac cut the tow line and with all the tension gone safe flight resumed.

And if it had been a low level lockout you'd have been smeared all over the runway because your driver that day was Cmac and Cmac let you hook up with the particular three string version you were using that was quite capable of generating sufficient friction on the pin to make it absolutely impossible to release, well below the line tension it took to break whatever chintzy lockout protector you were using.

And you tell me how that's a whole helluva lot better than Harold Johnson allowing Lin Lyons to hook up with an EQUALLY INERT three-string.

Regarding the original post video, like Gordo, my prime question has to be "was the driver/winch operator asleep at the wheel.

Try reading the fucking report.

Why was tension applied to lockout point and beyond? Where was the "reliable 2 way communication"?

Idiot.

The country looks like it'd be great for towing, where is it?

The Delmarva Peninsula was a great place for towing. Unfortunately a bunch of sleazy motherfuckers moved into Ridgely, formed Highland Aerosports with their fucking Dragonflies, and took safe competent towing forever off the table.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 22:05:40 UTC

I believe that it is near Watsonville, California. Hollister, California.

http://www.hang-gliding.com/

Thanks Davis. I'll recommend it to my nephew. He's always wanted to learn hang gliding and skydiving - and at Mission he'll be able to kill two birds with one stone.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Zack C - 2013/07/03 22:40:06 UTC

By Houston I mean the region encompassing Houston. Most of our surface towing is done at Hearne. HHPA owns a payout winch and a stationary winch. Some individuals in the region own payout winches or static line rigs as well.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 16:08:48 UTC

Not Sealy? Not aerotowing with Gregg?

As stated, I'm just talking about surface towing. Most pilots in the region use bent pin barrels and weaker weak links (than they use for surface towing) when aerotowing.

What kind of water filter are you using?

We route the line under the bar only for payout winch tows beginning with a dolly or platform launch. Foot launch payout winch tows and high stationary winch or static line tows are either two point or over/under (two stage). I personally don't tow over/under but a couple of pilots here do (with Koch releases).

Used to be a couple dozen before all the chest crushing took its inevitable toll.

David Williamson - 2013/07/03 23:48:39 UTC

Do Some People Not Like Kochs?

Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/03 04:12:58 UTC

a Koch system is antiquated crap causing jerks on the tow line, have fiddly release mechanism and cause terrible chest injuries when you face plant STOP USING THEM you cannot keep justifying them no matter how shiny they are and no matter how many tows you have successfully done.

All you do is pull on a little speed before releasing the over-bar line and then let it out again. There is no unpleasant jerking of the tow line. If you have a harness with a chest mounted parachute and an XC bag in the front top pocket then the Koch release will not take any impact when you face plant unless your neck has snapped, when it probably won't matter.

I think we've now established from Davis that no one knows of a Koch release failing to release the line when operated.

As for 'antiquated crap'; belts and braces have been around for some time now; seem to do a good job!

Likewise for Tost sailplane releases and weak links. But a third of a century ago hang gliding decided to use releases as placebos and weak links as releases. And here we are.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 00:25:37 UTC

I think we've now established from Davis that no one knows of a Koch release failing to release the line when operated.

Ah, how would I know that?

Who gives a flying fuck what you know, Davis? Your entire existence is devoted to mangling the truth as much as you possibly can while trying to use wording that always gives you an out of some kind or other.
---
Small edit to Post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post4649.html#p4649
(three back) effected at:
2013/07/04 19:53:53 UTC
Forgot to get in a Lauren dig I had intended.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

NMERider - 2013/07/06 03:48:14 UTC

Russian mouth release prevents a worse outcome during a lockout...

Lockout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUdtyB8xlag
Edward Zernaev - 2013/07/01
dead

13-1423
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1867/44534752601_5cd2d77ef7_o.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUdtyB8xlag
Lockout

NMERider - 2013/07/06

I like your Russian mouth release. That may have saved you from a worse landing.

- Ya know what else may have saved him from a worse landing? An appropriate weak link of 1.5 inches or less. He wouldn't have been able to get far enough to lock out in the first place.

- In your opinion, Jonathan, what are that Russian release's clear advantages over the one point Remote Barrel / Bridle Link system...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


...Tad developed? No, wait. I forgot...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News

NMERider - 2009/10/01 22:31:04 UTC

IIRC - Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come here to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad. The prize of course will either be delivered by the HMS Beagle or can be found on the Gallapagos Islands.

Tad wore out his warm welcome with the Davis Show cult over his AT release equipment so that stuff obviously sucked.

- How did you like the way Lauren and Paul's Tjaden Link...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

NMERider - 2013/02/08 05:29:57 UTC

Lauren,
Thank you for sharing Paul's report here. Zack's family and friends and the crew at Quest all have my heart-felt condolences.
Regards,
Jonathan

...kept Zack Marzec...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

...from getting too far out of whack when he was foolishly electing to stay on tow?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Such a tragedy that he got tumbled by that invisible dust devil after:
- being popped off tow at the worst possible time, when he was climbing hard in a near stall situation
- whipstalling and tailsliding

- And hey... What's your opinion on this:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

weak link testing Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Mark Knight are doing? They're experimenting with weak links up to 2.3 times as strong as the one that saved Zack from getting too far out of whack.

I think that's totally insane. And so does...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.

This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.

You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Think of:
- how far out of whack people would be able to get
- the angles of attack they'll be able to achieve
- how hard they'll have to push out when they want to get off tow

Watch Mark's student Bryan Bowker here being very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


It's a no brainer that a weak link two times as strong would've allowed him to achieve twice the angle of attack and he'd have broken twice the number of arms that he did.

These are very dangerous times for hang gliding, Jonathan. And the sport really needs people like you, Paul, Lauren, Peter, Davis, Jack, Bob, Dennis to help protect its traditions and core values.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/04 02:25:42 UTC

Any lump of metal near your vital organs is a recipe for disaster.

Standing on a launch ramp with a glider resting on your shoulders and confidence that you're connected to it because of a procedure you always use and/or a check you remember doing a short time ago is a recipe for disaster.

Landing a glider by coming in upright with your hands at shoulder or ear height and attempting to whipstall to a dead stop at the precise instant as practice for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is a recipe for disaster.

Putting a release actuator within easy reach so you can safely terminate a locked out tow is a recipe for disaster.

Using a piece of fishing line to blow you off tow at a bit over normal tension under the assumptions that:
- if the tension is a bit over normal something bad must be happening
- you'll never want - or need - to be on tow at a bit over normal tension
- everything will be just fine after your thrust is totally, instantly, irrevocably cut
is a recipe for disaster.

Reinventing aviation based on idiot assumptions, opinions, and popular ideas is a recipe for disaster on an unimaginable scale.

the Koch is a rather large lump of metal and is antiquated just like steam engine, pretty to look at but superseded by modern technology.

Yeah, there are so many other excellent solutions for:
- towing at an angle going from zero to max without interfering with the basetube
- blowing tow with the speed, ease, and reliability of a slap to the chest
that it's absolutely amazing that these things haven't all been melted down and recast as pent parachute pins.

Chest mounted parachute??? why? another product to get pushed through your ribcage...

Yeah, SO MANY people have been killed or severely injured by having their chest mounted parachutes pushed through their rib cages. Whenever I'm about to pancake into a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place I toss mine to make sure it doesn't get pushed through my rib cage.

...please its the year 2013 have we not learnt anything or are we still burying our head up our own arse and saying that because I use it it must be the best!!

I dunno. But as long as you have your head buried that far up your ass...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

...you might wanna take the time to check for polyps.

Take a step back, listen to the best pilots in the world, see what they are using, see how they operate, observe how they listen to advice, asses the information and then apply it and then, maybe we all may benefit.

The best pilots in the world skip hook-in checks, fly with backup loops, three foot protow bridles, bent pin releases, and Rooney Link lockout protectors, and tolerate the existences of scum like Davis, Rooney, and Trisa. Fuck them.

The barrel release is by far the most popular,its used by the worlds best pilots...

Like I said.

and probably one of the smallest and easiest to hook onto the end of a tow line and with a suitable skill level easy to use.

Until you NEED...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

...to use it.

Its main disadvantage is that it is not the easiest to release from, you first must locate the barrel, grab it and only then you are off.

If...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...you've started out high enough not to have slammed into the runway first. But the fact that it won't penetrate your rib cage when you do more than makes up for the problems related to locating, grabbing, and prying open the barrel with one hand while you're flying the glider with the other.

The Linknife is, in comparison rather small, easy to use, infallible...

As long as the lanyard doesn't get misrouted and you don't get any grass in the slot.

...will release under any tension or direction of the tow line.

And then all you've gotta do is...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

...wait for your glider to recover from the unplanned semi-loop and hope you're high enough for that to be able to happen.

I realise that some pilots don't like to use this NASA approved piece of kit...

- You spelled "shit" wrong.

- That NASA approved piece shit was incorporated with an actuation system that didn't require a pilot to surrender virtually all control of an aircraft during in-flight emergencies so critical that the slightest compromise could/would result in a total/permanent/fatal failure of the mission.

- NASA's developed some totally awesome deployable solar arrays. That doesn't mean that I wanna fit my glider with a pair of them.

...because it takes them an extra 20 seconds to hook on to the tow line, an insignificant amount of time considering the extra safety it presents.

Plus the extra couple of minutes to tie the loop of fishing line Peter counts on to get off tow...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

...in an emergency.

...the release cord is sitting there in front of your face and is just a 'swat' of the hand in any direction to get you off the line.

See above on the unplanned semi-loop, shithead.

You use a weak link of your desired tension...

- And fuck the FAA aerotowing regulations which specify a range.

- Yes, use a weak link of your DESIRED tension so it will do what you DESIRE it to do - keep you from getting into too much trouble in a lockout while not INCONVENIENCING you when you're coming off the launch cart, flying through a bit of turbulence, or getting blasted up in a monster thermal and standing on your tail with the bar stuffed.

...(usually the same as your body weight) just the same as you would on a barrel system...

My body weight is 175 (I wish) and I hook in at 200.
- I fly a Sport 2 135 maxed out and one point. I'm at 1.4 Gs flying weight and FAA
- I fly a Sport 2 175 two point. I'm at 1.1 Gs flying weight and a little under 0.8 FAA - which is illegal.

Tell me what those numbers are supposed to be doing for me.

...except with this system its a new weak link every tow...

Oh goody! Tost won't let me have a new insert until I do two hundred tows. But with Peter's system I get a brand new piece of fishing line (usually the same as my body weight) which has been precisely calibrated to make all of the right decisions for me EVERY FLIGHT. You just can't get a better focal point to your safe towing system.

...not one that has almost broken on the previous tow but has managed to hold together only to bite you on the next tow.

BULL FUCKING SHIT! Weak links don't BITE YOU. They increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD. And...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.

...lighter is ALWAYS SAFER.

I watched an idiot at a tow comp go over and get towed by a team that didn't believe in weak links...

What kind of record to does it have in comparison to a team that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LAMP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

...REALLY believes in weak links?

...sure enough he had a release failure at top of tow...

Just *A* release failure?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Lauren had at least two and couldn't stop bubbling about the tandem rating she had been awarded - despite just having killed her passenger along with her own stupid ass about three times over for the purpose of the exercise.

...and managed to lock out during his attempts to release...

What an...

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...asshole.

he started screaming, the driver couldn't release because their 'fantastic' tow system couldn't release at that angle, the driver was too panicked to consider reversing the vehicle...

So was Bobby Bailey when Robin Strid was locking out behind him.

...and just moments before impact the rope broke...

Sounds like he actually DID have a perfectly good weak link then.

...the pilot landed...

So this guy LANDED his glider. So - even though this guy was locked out with no weak link and welded to a parked truck almost to the point of fatal impact - the glider...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

So think about it.
How is this accomplished?
Simply put... lock out.

...didn't get its wings torn off. Did it at least...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/21 16:56:55 UTC

...as did Paul when he almost stretched the sail of his $10,000 glider to the point where he'd have to consider competing with Falcon pilots.

...get its sail almost stretched to the point at which he'd have to consider competing with Falcon pilots?

...and took up religion.

Interesting choice of words...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/13 15:02:38 UTC

Interesting choice of words. Hang gliding's longstanding faith in the universal application of the 130 lb Greenspot loop is the closest thing I've seen to a religion in this sport.

The Cult of 130 Pound Greenspot?

So the moral of this story is always use a weak link (usually the same as your body weight) so that if you go up with a locked release and assholes on the other end incapable of doing their job there's no fuckin' way you'll wind up slamming into the runway. So how come when Shane Smith's release jammed (in his weak link) and his cut towline fouled (in his turnaround pulley) his weak link failed to recognize that he was in too much trouble and he wound up slamming into the runway?

He later dropped a girl to her death on a tandem flight--still an idiot.

- What would you call a tandem driver who's rabidly conscientious about weak links - really safe ones - but doesn't hook himself in and dives a girl into the powerlines? (Hey Jim, feel free to hop into this discussion any time you feel so inclined.)

- So that would make it either Steve Parson or Jon Orders, probably the former.

- So everybody who's ever been responsible for an unhooked launch...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

...is an idiot?

I have shared a beer with way too many pilots that are now dead due to stupid mistakes, stupid concepts and peer pressure to perform stupid acts...

- Maybe you should consider sharing milkshakes with pilots instead.

- The sport's foundation is a conglomeration of stupid mistakes, stupid concepts, and peer pressure to perform stupid acts.

- One of the most astoundingly stupid mistakes you can make in the sport of the sport is to try to use a weak link (usually the same as your body weight) to increase the safety of a towing operation.

...this is possibly the best educational video that I have seen and should be used in all schools as to what not to do...

Like what?
- Don't fuck up on a release connection?
- Install a guillotine on a winch?

People are gonna hook releases up properly and install guillotines because they've seen a video?

This sequence of photos:






depicts an emergency situation - precipitated by a bunch of assholes with a known defective dolly - preordained to end in a crash by primary and backup releases which failed as catastrophically as Lin's accidentally sabotaged one did. Both of those gliders were stuck on tow and whether it was because the mechanism was improperly connected or the actuators were mounted where they couldn't be accessed - downtube, shoulder, noseplate, kingpost, wingtip - is irrelevant.

Lin didn't need to see the video to resolve to connect his three-string properly in the future and Davis getting his lip cut up and his fucking neck almost broken did NOTHING to compel him to use - or sell to his victims - a release which will work in an emergency.

I thank the pilot for having the guts to share it...

What? The "guts" to show the consequences of doing something as despicable and unforgivable as fucking up a release connection as a student?

...it has created a lot of talk and hopefully a re-think on towing operations.

Right. The same way the Eleni Zeri, Bill Priday, Kunio Yoshimura, Lenami Godinez-Avila fatalities precipitated massive rethinks on hook-in checks.

And lemme tell ya sumpin' else, motherfucker...

Strapping your ass into Seat 33F on a 737-800 tanked up with 6875 gallons of jet fuel at BWI is a recipe for disaster because if the engines quit a hundred feet off the runway YOU WILL BE VAPORIZED. But that virtually never happens because we design, test, build, maintain, train, preflight to fly the goddam thing instead of wasting millions of hours having idiot discussions about the best kinds of pillows to hold in front of our faces for WHEN we crash on takeoff.

- If we try to gear our weak links on the assumptions that:
-- every glider is an incompetent muppet
-- every launch will result in a lockout
-- our releases will be inaccessible and/or inoperable
-- a light weak link blow can never be anything more serious than an inconvenience
we're gonna do nothing but crash and kill a lot of gliders that didn't need to be crashed and killed.

- And if we try to gear all our landings on the assumption that what we're coming down in is a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place we're gonna achieve similar results for that end of the flight as well.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

William Olive - 2013/07/04 02:40:33 UTC

Actually..no.

If you use a barrel release on one side of a chest bridle, with the weak link and Linknife on t'other side you can hook on to the line just as fast as anybody. Plus, you have the added reliability of two good releases.

You have two releases that...

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

...STINK ON ICE.

- And one of them is a bent pin piece of crap with insufficient load capacity which needs to be protected by a Marzec Link and the other has infinite load capacity that you don't need.

- Tell me how what you describe is anywhere near the quality of something like THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/


Given that you're taking a hand off, that's bulletproof and will blow seven hundred pound towline with a seventeen pound pull with either hand.

Bart Weghorst - 2013/07/04 03:05:33 UTC

Mike Nook's accident

No one can say with certainty that Mike Nooy's accident was because of a release failure.

Then what the fuck is THIS:

http://ozreport.com/9.038
Bridles

Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/15

Mike Nooy's release was triggered but at the angle of the rope that was greater than 90 degrees to the 'finger' at its max open point, so the rope did not come off the end. The release 'finger' was mounted firmly to the front of the harness, as with all the H.S. systems. We call them Euro tow systems.

The release 'finger' pivoted only horizontally and less than 180 degrees. The finger should be able to pivot vertically as well as horizontally and in excess of 180 degrees to release in any direction. It needs a UNI joint, like found on a car tail shaft but smaller and covered so it will not snag.

I know because I studied this particular accident well.

Did you even consider the fact that his weak link didn't infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow when the towline tension exceeded the limit for safe operation? I'd say that's your smoking gun. WHENEVER a towed glider slams in it's because of a dangerous stronglink.

Mike is a friend of mine.

And where the fuck did your post go? Something's going on here and whatever it is it totally stinks.

And since when the fuck did you...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

...start giving a rat's ass...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

...about the safety of towing equipment?

[Steve Davy]

Reinventing aviation based on idiot assumptions, opinions, and popular ideas is a recipe for disaster on an unimaginable scale.

Indeed!