instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 17:45:36 UTC

Ok guys. I've had it

I've grown a bit sick of the "Us vs Them" (PGvsHG) attitude around here.

How 'bout the "Us versus Them" (Guys Who Pull The Rope versus Guys Who Pay For The Rope) attitudes? You really seem to thrive on that action.

I fly both, along with a bunch of other aircraft, as do many around here.

None, however, with anything beginning to approach your Keen Intellect and Depth of Experience.

I'm both "Us" and "Them", but in your world, there is only room for one.

There's no room whatsoever in my world for a parasitic little piece of shit like you.

So I'm supposed to hate myself for trying to ruin "your" sport.

Nah, there's a small but growing body who can handle the hatred for you and your fellow Dragonfly driving dickheads for the decades of damage you've done to...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

...OUR sport to the extent that you really don't need to be included in the effort.

I supposedly lie about the realities of a sport that you know nothing about (so how exactly am I to be judged?).

Try this:

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

I just don't get it.

Something you just don't get? Really hard to believe.

I'm a professional in both.

You get paid to fly and teach - in several flavors of unregulated dangerous bullshit aviation. So did Steve Parson and Jon Orders. The former has a manslaughter conviction and the latter is facing charges of criminal negligence and obstruction of justice. And DO send my love to your buddy Bo Hagewood - and tell him how happy I am that his student's body cushioned his impact enough to allow him to survive.

This isn't a weekend gig for me.

We know. And we know that it's only the best and the brightest who do that stuff full time. (In the early Eighties when I was a Kitty Hawk instructor virtually NO ONE lasted more than a season because by two thirds of the way through one of them everyone had gone stark raving mad with repetition/monotony.)

Yet the amount of bile I have to put up with?

Probably not as much as you're gonna hafta put up with the next time somebody slams in as a consequence of one of your Industry Standard shitrigged releases, Rooney Links, or some combination of the two.

I came here from the Oz Report Forum cuz this place was initially less of a sewing circle bitchfest. Sadly, it's become just as bad... no, worse. Here the "moderator" takes sides.

- But, on the other hand, you don't hafta suck Jack's dick to get the level of protection Davis affords you.

- And on top of that...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?

Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.

...The Davis Show keeps getting less of a sewing circle bitchfest with each passing fatality.

So I've decided I'm not putting up with it.

And am declaring victory and leaving.

You like my advice about your hobby...

The low double digit IQ crowd Jack permits to participate and cultivates eat it up with a spoon - 'cause you tell them the fairy tales they want to believe and reinforce the deadly lunatic crap they've been taught already.

...but you rail and spew about my other one?

Not me. I couldn't be happier that you're participating in a flavor of aviation that's not hang gliding or hang glider tug driving - especially one with the statistics that paragliding has.

Sorry. I'm taking my ball and going home.

And DO give Davis a big hug and kiss when you get there.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Jack Axaopoulos - 2011/06/12 18:20:06 UTC

Have we had enough threads started about paragliding on this HG forum yet????

I agree. There's barely enough room for the threads on standup landing and standard aerotow weak link induced crashes as it is.

Ill never understand why people have to start threads they know are going to cause the same old heated debate that comes up far too often, yet they continue to do it.

Wanna resume THIS one:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 12:13:01 UTC

Bullshit.

a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.

b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.

This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.

Sorry... but if you suddenly lose power, your nose just doesnt pop

motherfucker?

Cant we all just agree to stop the pg talk?

Sure. We can stop anything we want - as long as we've got the lock, edit, and ban buttons.

it doesnt belong here.

Lotsa stuff doesn't belong there.

This is an HG specific site, not biwingal.

And a Jack approved HG specific site on top of that.

There is a paragliding specific forum available too.

Yeah.

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Forum Moderators - 2010/02/24 22:02:46 UTC

We, the Moderators, feel that weak links are an important topic. In our view Tad Eareckson's posts have discouraged others from taking part in this discussion, so, after several warnings, he has been banned. His most recent post, after this topic was locked, is here:

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30195
moderation

We are happy to lift the ban if we come to the view that Tad has further positive contributions to make - please contact us by PM or by email if you feel that this is the case.

No unpopular viewpoints expressed over there either.

Now this I dont get:
Youre supposed to hate yourself? Thats what people say here?
Youre trying to ruin our sport? Thats what people think here?
Bile? Anyone who doesnt agree with you spews bile now?

Sorry Jim... havent seen anyone say anything like the above. Can you quote it?

Some of the stuff on The Davis Show over the course of the past couple of months has been pretty good.

You seem to perceive anyone who disagrees with you as a hater of pg, simply nonsense. We just disagree. I dont think pg piltos who disagree with me hate hang gliding.

Like ive told others... if you want to go... just go. You dont get a free parting cheap shot at the community to tell us how much we suck. Sorry... no free attack on us while you exit.

And what would be the point? Everybody with half a brain or better already knows how much you suck.

Well I see now that you are threatening to delete your account in a PM if I dont delete it for you, which I can only assume means youre going to do what a certain other poster did and start vandalizing and deleting posts, so you force my hand... account banned so you cant vandalize. Well this truly sucks. Threatening to damage the site just because you got pissed off is really messed up dude. You need to seriously chill out.

Accounts cant be deleted. It screws all the threads up. Sorry, I cant let you just start trashing the place, which is your intent.

I never heard you deny this, Jimmy.

You could have simply said, so long guys, not enjoying it here anymore, instead of trashing us and threatening to damage the forum, which is why you are in the basement now. A gentlemens farewell would not be in the basement.

How 'bout one from over here at Kite Strings, Jack? You and all the assholes over there who aid, abet, encourage, and/or tolerate you and the crap you pull can go fuck yourselves.

If you wish to lunge even more profanity at me, email me directly.

Cowardly dickhead.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Casey Cox - 2011/06/12 21:36:22 UTC

Jim,

I'm sorry to see you go and wish you would reconsider and stay.

Me too.
- Just about every post he makes on any topic is a real gem.
- Every time some Jack or Davis Show asshole incorporates one of his ideas his likelihood of getting snuffed goes up by a factor of ten.

I value your input on topics, for you seem to have much knowledge about gliders and flying.

Yeah Casey - he SEEMS TO.

And Tad...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28581
How to get banned from kitestrings.org ((tad drama)lol)

Tom Emery - 2013/03/12 21:57:06 UTC

No disrespect intended, but there seem to be a fair amount of bats circling inside that belfry.

...SEEMS TO have a fair amount of bats circling inside his belfry.

But nobody SEEMS TO be quite sure. Which means that nobody REALLY understands what the fuck he's talking about.

Fly safe.

How? When you're basing your decisions and actions on the statements of someone who SEEMS TO have much knowledge about gliders and flying that means that you don't KNOW what you're doing. And good luck with what you're doing 'cause that's what you're gonna need.

Ryan Voight - 2011/06/12 23:43:48 UTC

This is a huge loss for this community.

For THAT community... Fer sure.

What more can I say...

I dunno... Maybe something in the way of a refresher about how a Rooney Link can be used as an instant hands free release by pitching out abruptly if it doesn't break soon enough to keep you from getting into too much trouble?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Jack Axaopoulos - 2011/06/12 23:52:52 UTC

How about that you will stop starting pg/hg flame wars here?
It always ends badly.

Ryan Voight - 2011/06/13 00:08:12 UTC

How about you take some responsibility for driving out one of the most knowledgeable members here.

Yeah, the off-the-scale stupid little shit WAS one of the most knowledgeable members there.

The guy would post about HG stuff day and night with spot-on factual information and advice...

Yeah Ryan...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28091
Request input on harnesses

Ryan Voight - 2013/01/18 18:27:47 UTC

And the harness, it's the connection between body and wing- all weight shift inputs are transmitted through the harness.

On par with yours.

I won't say he was NEVER wrong, but probably to closest to anyone has come on the forum? Probably...

Well...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

Tad has been BANNED again.

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site.

Anybody ALLOWED on the forum anyway.

With that much knowledge, he was very respected by myself and many...

Really touching the way you sleazy little scumbags stick together and protect each other.

Axel Banchero - 2011/06/12 23:54:16 UTC
Miami Beach

Jim going out sucks big time... what an idiotic way of losing such a great member of this forum.

axo...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12536
standard operating procedures

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/18 15:42:14 UTC

Tad.. thanks for the links to the Dynamic flight reads on lockouts and weaklinks. I must confess i was one of those expecting the weak link to break in case of an ugly lookout before reading that. The info on that site is very clear and makes a lot of sense.

For me it also makes sense now.
I have had one weak link break during launch and i feel "lucky" everything went well and just landed a bit hard on the wheels.
But i also saw a world class pilot having exactly the same problem and breaking the link at the same altitude. But he broke the downtubes on his Litespeed and looked to be in pain in one of his wrists. He was fine though.
I saw more weak links break at low altitude and it is always a few seconds of anguish and uncertainty about whats gonna happen to the pilot.

I would like to improve my weak link setup so i am better than now at avoiding a low altitude break during launch and i want to start releasing sooner when i get into a lockout position as now i know the weak link wont do s*** to save me.

By now, i haven't seen any of those Tost or any other setups in a hang glider yet. I would be open to use a system like that if the park owners also approve it after learning the benefits and increased security.

Didn't take very long for your brain to totally rot out, did it?

Tom Galvin - 2011/06/13 03:27:25 UTC

Sorry SG, but you messed up.

Jack Axaopoulos - 2011/06/13 03:37:40 UTC

Takes two to tango. I argued for an obvious fact and steve dodged and squirms, and somehow im to blame? Right. They start with the name calling, and im to blame? Riiiiiight, that makes a whole lot of sense

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

Please tell me again what's wrong with the wheel? Why you keep trying to reinvent it?

Yes, please fall back on the "I'm just saying they could be stronger" bull when you've made it quite clear that anything lower than cable (1200lb) is acceptable.

The simple fact is that you're not improving the system.
You're trying to make it more convenient and trying to convince yourself that you should be towing with a stronger weaklink.

Enjoy your delusion.

There would be nothing to argue about if they simply admitted a known fact. Was wondering how long it was going to take you to show up and take your free shot. So predictable.

Tom Galvin - 2011/06/13 03:47:27 UTC

It's my opinion, with my name on it. I own my words, and they have a cost, as did yours.

And I SO DO hope...

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I teach hook-in checks. I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

...to help ensure that you're charged an appropriate price for your words sometime, Tom.

Allen Sparks - 2011/06/19 13:21:25 UTC

it is sad that Jim left.

Real bummer, Allen. A tragedy right up there with the guy who died in that inexplicable freak accident at Quest at the beginning of last month right after his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation by clearly providing protection from a high angle of attack. And THANK YOU SO MUCH for your participation in THOSE discussions.

Rich Jesuroga - 2011/06/21 04:20:41 UTC

Not good that Jim left. Para/hang is not black and white. At our sites, we fly the same air, seek the same conditions, drive and retrieve the same roads.
I don't fly a paraglider, but some of my friends do. And they will always be my friends. Always.
Not good that Jim left.

Rick Cavallaro - 2011/06/21 04:34:17 UTC
S.F. Bay Area

I couldn't agree more. I always felt Jim was one of the most intelligent and level headed posters here.

- And aviation is SO dependent upon people's individual FEELINGS.

- Of course you felt that way...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

Jim's constantly telling everyone he's one of the most intelligent and level headed posters everywhere he goes - and all you assholes are too fuckin' lazy and/or stupid to check the math or listen to anyone who isn't.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 17:45:36 UTC

You like my advice about your hobby...

They can't get enough of it, Jim. It's really hard to imagine how anybody was able to survive and accomplish anything in hang gliding before you were discovered in a manger in one of the hangars at Ridgely eleven years ago.

Casey Cox - 2011/06/12 21:36:22 UTC

I value your input on topics, for you seem to have much knowledge about gliders and flying.

Ryan Voight - 2011/06/12 23:43:48 UTC

This is a huge loss for this community.

Axel Banchero - 2011/06/12 23:54:16 UTC

Jim going out sucks big time... what an idiotic way of losing such a great member of this forum.

Ryan Voight - 2011/06/13 00:08:12 UTC

The guy would post about HG stuff day and night with spot-on factual information and advice...

Tom Galvin - 2011/06/13 03:27:25 UTC

Sorry SG, but you messed up.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

- Somebody name me another flavor of aviation which is so dependent on the advice, input, knowledge, information, comments, intellect, experience, opinions of one individual - especially an individual who, less than four years into his career has, dived a glider and passenger into power lines by hanging from the basetube after launching unhooked and, but for a matter of the luck of the outcome, would have joined a couple of his colleagues in facing criminal charges.

- Somebody give me ONE QUOTE from this asshole in the small category of shit that he's got right that couldn't just as well or better understood and explained by a halfway intelligent ten year old kid who'd never been near a glider.

- Somebody cite me something of any importance to a hang glider pilot that can't be easily understood and put into practice or executed by a halfway intelligent junior high school student.

- Is there something deficient in the publications of Dennis Pagen...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/07 01:57:24 UTC

I don't 100% agree with everything in the Pagen manual.... but that doesn't mean it's not an outstanding resource for new pilots.

mrcc - 2012/09/07 23:41:57 UTC
Auckland

I differ to say, his series of publication on HG are the best currently out there in the market place. For both new & older pilots.

Felix Cantesanu - 2012/09/09 02:48:24 UTC
Baltimore

I am on the second book by Dennis Pagen and like the first one I cannot put it down. I went back to the first one many times (and will do that more I'm sure).
Easy to understand, smart, a wealth of information...
The books are worth every penny.

...including/particularly the excellent book, Towing Aloft, such that we're dependent upon Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to pick up the slack? If so, why have I never heard of what it is?

- Are Rooney's proclamations on towing consistent with what's written in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, and, if not, why has there been no condemnation of one or the other or settled resolution?

- If Rooney's such a valuable resource why does he continue to be such a valuable resource? Why isn't he so good at getting his points across that his students and followers are able to equal his level of enlightenment and render him redundant?

- Somebody cite me a single advancement in the sport - glider, harness, towing equipment technology; flying technique or procedure; instructional strategy - to which he's been a contributor.

I'm an instructor and I actually have made major contributions to towing equipment technology and instructional strategies - in the face of rabid resistance from the mainstream sewer.

And I've rescued several individuals from the mainstream sewer and taught them pretty much everything I know about hang gliding and towing theory and technology to the extent that they can mop the floor with Rooney and any and all of his fellow scammers and adoring zombies as effectively as I can and without any help me.

And if I get run over by a truck tomorrow they'll be able to carry on just fine - or, hopefully, better - without me.

And that should be the goal of any REAL instructor.

Compare/Contrast with Rooney whose motivation is solely to maximize his personal social status with minimums of effort and competence at the expense of whatever it takes in the way of stagnation and participants' lives - including those of his...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

..."friends".

[Tad Eareckson]

Jack Show...

http://www.hanggliding.org/forums.php
Index - Hang Gliding Org - Worlds largest Hang Gliding community, discover Hang Gliding

Sixteen subforums.

You need to scroll down to Seven to see dusty ol' "Incident Reports" - which, in a sane universe, should at the top and getting refreshed constantly.

"The Basement" - the dumping ground for discussions that the controlling interests don't want people to see or participate in - is, of course, at the bottom.

And, whereas all other subforums on that page display the titles of the seven most current threads, "The Basement", as of a couple of days or so ago, has been chopped to two. Guess Jack was getting uncomfortable with:

How to get banned from kitestrings.org ((tad drama)lol)

currently fourth from the top, getting even that much visibility.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

GroundEffect - 2013/04/02 19:22:52 UTC

Aerotowing Concern

Excellent start.

Now that the winds have subsided following the young man's death in Florida while aerotowing.

They didn't subside. On The:
- Jack Show they exceeded the fifteen second average attention spans of the bozos typical of that forum.
- Davis Show the topics were locked down when the Good Guys scored too many solid hits.

I have several safety concerns for myself.

Just several? How 'bout the whole book?

I began aerotow training late December 2012 at a different location and have not returned to finish.

Good move.

This accident leaves me puzzled.

- That was no accident, dude. And you can go several decades in this sport without hearing of one.

- This would've puzzled NO ONE...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...in the Seventies. But in 1981 rope breaks and premature releases all the sudden became GOOD things.

How can I or any student prepare for such an uncontrollable event such as what happened in Florida?

Short answer... You can't.

If this young instructor of aerotow couldn't recover his glider then what chance would I have?

Configured as he was? ZERO. Once that glider nosed up in that thermal he was fucked - and anybody else in that situation would've wound up just as dead just as fast.

I understand there are many things that can go wrong...

The vast majority of them deliberately built into the system.

...and we are taught how to recognize and recover from them.

You're being conned.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/15 01:53:11 UTC

But there are times, however rare when a sudden loss of tension will kill you no matter what you do.

When the shit hits the fan down low on tow it's often the case that there's nothing you can do to alter the outcome. So what you need to do is equip with the best technology available and do everything you can to avoid a situation in which you're gonna need it.

I have not seen or heard of anything that may have saved this guy's life besides having more altitude.

The time to save the guy's life was...

Tad Eareckson - 2013/02/08 18:07:29 UTC

Give him:
- a two point bridle and he walks away with an intact glider.
- a one and a half G weak link and he continues the tow.
- both and he doesn't even remember getting popped by the time he lands three hours later

...before he got on the cart.

I assume the glider tumbled following a hard stall.

You don't hafta assume that. That's been stated. And you don't gotta be a rocket scientist to understand why. You've just gotta recognize that the Emperor and all of his court have no clothes.

Is there anything that could have prevented this?

Yeah. A solid connection between the tug and glider and/or a two point bridle.

I mean in the design of our gliders.

No. You can't afford to whipstall these things.

I have flown fixed wing Cessnas...

Versus rotary wing Cessnas?

...and stalling is no big deal to recover from, yes I know you need some altitude though but the plane will not flip. At least I never had seen or heard of this happening. At least I never had seen or heard of this happening.

Try whipstalling one at 150 feet. It won't tumble but that's not gonna help you any.

Please share your thoughts with me.

Fear not.

H2
North Wing Horizon 180

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Jim Gaar - 2013/04/02 20:12:21 UTC

Good questions and concerns.

This guy's a total asshole.

Bottom line: Is the sport of hang gliding worth the risk(s) you are taking?

It is most assuredly NOT worth the risks you are now taking. But most of them can be eliminated or dialed down to reasonable levels.

Advanced pilots have been know to battle it a little further into potential wrecks. They can be fooled by complacency or laziness.

Bull fucking shit. Most of the disasters in this sport are the consequences of:
- shit:
-- training
-- procedures
-- equipment
- distractions
- being human

You have to fight and win this battle against complacency and to always be ready and RELEASE the moment something STARTS to go wrong.

Load of crap.

- The right call in a situation on tow is...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...RARELY to release. And if you need to release down low it's probably too late already.

- Nevertheless... You need to be equipped so you CAN the instant you can react without any compromise of control. And you can't do that with ANY Industry Standard equipment.

- This:

http://www.nanoavionic.com/
http://www.getoffrelease.com/

is the ONLY two point release I'd recommend to somebody I don't hate and doesn't wanna build something in himself. For someone I DO hate I'd recommend anything that's ever come out of Wallaby, Quest, Lookout, Manquin, Ridgely...

Can you do that?

No Jim... And neither can you.

It can be a tough question to answer. Seek out your peers/instructor and talk to them about it.

- Stay the fuck away...

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

...from your "peers" and don't let them become your peers. You can do a lot better than them.

- The instructors ALL suck.

It's something you will have to come to terms with to be a good, safe pilot.

Get fucked, Jim.

Best of luck to you...

You can't afford to get into situations in which you're gonna be dependent on luck very often.

Diev Hart - 2013/04/02 20:37:57 UTC

This guy's not particularly evil - but he is a major moron.

That will not happen in calm (student) conditions (morning or evening).

Roy Messing didn't have much trouble getting killed in calm morning student conditions - probably with a bit 'o help from his Lockout Mountain Flight Park release.

(Mid day dusty on runway)
Thinking one can fix a bad situation is where most problems come from...so get off as soon as there is any issue and start over...DO NOT TRY TO BE SUPERMAN.

Bullshit. Name some survivors of tow crashes who said they got into trouble trying to be Superman. They're all scared and trying to the best they can with the crap they got sold by their shit tow park.

Your fears are valid, use them to make you a better pilot and more informed.

You're not gonna become a better, more informed pilot wading around in that Jack Show crap.

Talk to your tug and instructor about your feelings...

Yeah, do that. Those guys are totally awesome in their abilities to make people feel good about what they're doing. Notice how well they were able to write off Zack Marzec as a freak accident and have everyone remain cool with being pro toad on Rooney Links.

...play on ground with the gliders maybe a tandem to get you going again.

Tandem's are nice. If you start locking you'll have available:
- two hands for flying the glider
- one hand for:
-- releasing
-- reaching up to check your helmet buckle

With all that said....most of the time, if we could see what the air was doing we probably wouldn't want to get up in it...

Bullshit.

- Anybody who's any good CAN see what the air is doing. And when he sees it doing something he pulls in to get to it as fast as possible.

- How come people see shit like THIS:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


all the time without being the least bit bothered by it - even AFTER somebody's just been killed?

Dennis Wood - 2013/04/02 22:46:40 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

Major asshole. Helped teach Zack Marzec the right way to aerotow.

you have to understand that there are monsters lurking for our tailless wings (or even close-coupled) and our job is to be vigilant and ready. even with this care, sometimes feces occurs.

Fuck you, peanuts. You ARE one of the monsters.

Nic Welbourn - 2013/04/02 23:01:26 UTC
Canberra

After getting my AT endorsement I chose not to continue. Reasons being that:

- there are plenty or foot-launch mountain sites close to my door
- AT for me means driving some hours = time = money + cost of towing
- AT has a smaller margin for error, and when things go wrong it's all pretty fast... afterall, the idea is to tow in thermic conditions

but that's just me and AT.

Even as shoddily as AT is practiced your chances of getting fucked up on a slope launch are about twenty times higher than they are for an AT.

For me there is something really nice and pure about foot launching.

Yeah. After you've driven your SUV up the mountain and set up your glider you can start pretending you're doing flight just like a bird.

But it is pretty cool to be able to be towed up and dumped into a thermal of your choice though... and to be able to launch right away if you bombout!

Yes.

Almost all accidents I've heard about were caused by complacency.

Bullshit.

Our enemy is complacency, AT or no AT.

If you mean:
- during launch - bullshit
- when people are listening to their instructors and equipping their gliders - goddam right.

It's not a biggy if you drive a car, what with all that airbag equipment, anti-skid brakes, etc.

How many times a year are you in a situation in which you're dependent upon your seatbelt, airbags, antilock brake system, etc.?

...but flying a hang glider leaves you a tad more vulnerable if things go wrong.

Name some critical control components on cars that are "designed" by assholes like Bobby and Matt and are velcroed and quick-linked on in locations in which they're totally inaccessible in emergencies.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

cumulus 10 - 2013/04/02 23:27:15 UTC
Lake Worth, Florida

I came back after 34 years (Hang 4, #212), and am currently flying out of the Ridge and have had about 35 aerotows. I am currently flying a U2...

- Let's give things the benefit of the doubt and call it the little one.

Maximum certified operating weight - 283 pounds. Loop of 130 on a two point bridle - 226 pounds towline. 0.80 Gs. Just legal - after you rounds up a hair.

- If it's the 160 we're talking 328 and 0.69 Gs.

- The fact that you aren't telling us:
-- whether:
--- it's a 145 or 160
--- you're flying two point (which you are) or one
-- what you're using for a weak link (it's a single loop of 130)
means you have no fuckin' clue what a weak link is which means that those Florida Ridge fuckin' douchebags didn't teach you what a weak link is and we've known from a very long record that those Florida Ridge douchebags don't give a rat's ass about anything. (Notice the level of their participation in the Zack Marzec postmortem?)

...and have had weak link breaks at 30 and 300 feet.

- For absolute no reason either time 'cause if anything had been going on you'd have told us.
- Six percent failure rate. Not bad, dude.

I get out early and fly in the morning to get used to conditions.

Great! Too bad Zack didn't do that - if he'd gotten used to the conditions on the morning of 2012/02/02 he'd have been able to handle the situation that hit him that afternoon.

Last time out I set up and didn't fly due to gusty conditions. In my experience on tow I have had time to make choices.

And the fact that you've had a six percent weak link failure rate tells us that every single flight you've had you've made really bad ones - even ignoring the fact that you're flying with those Florida Ridge pigfuckers at all.

I had over 400 hours logged in the Seventies and 99 percent mountain flying and two summers in the Owens Valley doing XC. Yes, I have lost friends in this sport and the risks are always present.

So what's it really hurt to deliberately throw in another dozen or so?

I love the sport and looking for a great summer of flying here in Florida.

And you're totally cool with The Industry's explanation that Zack Marzec was just an inexplicable freak accident and nothing you need be concerned with. Have a great summer of flying there in Florida, dude!

2013/04/05 02:51:32 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar

GroundEffect - 2013/04/03 00:58:51 UTC

I want to thank everyone that replied back to my concerns.

- You really REALLY *DON'T*.
- Not one of those assholes:
-- did a goddam thing to address your concerns
-- contributed a single goddam useful thing to the discussion of the fatality two months ago yesterday

I do understand the risk of our sport...

No you don't. This sport has been working hard for over three decades to make sure nobody understands the risks and how they need to be addressed.

...and like most I love hang gliding.

If you love hang gliding and come to understand it you're really gonna despise the motherfuckers who control it.

I'm stuck between the mountains and the flat lands of Florida. Having to drive five hours to fly and being disappointed with launch conditions on the ramp...

You're a Lookout grad - so we REALLY need to talk about hook-in checks and landings.

...more often than not, I thought aerotowing would give me more flying time.

It can and should. But you're really rolling a lot of dice when you fly at any operation closer than Columbus, Texas.

Thanks again.

Don't get too attached to any of these assholes.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/03 02:44:00 UTC

I love aerotowing...

And have done more than any single individual since Donnell Hewett to destroy it.

...and much prefer it to hill side launching (except at Montecucco).

I don't give that much of a rat's ass how or where you kill yourself - so feel free to work on the issue in whatever environment that makes you happy.

I much prefer Bobby Baily's carts and tugs with four cycle engines.

Yeah, he's a fucking genius. There's just nothing he can do wrong.

I go to flight parks that know what they are doing.

Yeah. Especially Quest.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


You know all these assholes really know what they're doing 'cause they keep telling you they do.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


(Pay no attention to that soon to be lifeless body being loaded into the ambulance.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

GroundEffect - 2013/04/02 19:22:52 UTC

Now that the winds have subsided following the young man's death in Florida while aerotowing. I have several safety concerns for myself. I began aerotow training late December 2012 at a different location...

Lookout.

...and have not returned to finish. This accident leaves me puzzled.

- Which tells us that Lookout's AT "training" program totally sucks. (No surprises there.)

ALL of these "training" programs are geared towards conning/lulling everybody into believing that aerotow launches are six times safer than driving to the grocery store and as long as you use an appropriate weak link and Industry Standard equipment, stay inside the Cone of Safety, and ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem that it's physically impossible for anything bad to happen to you.

And whenever something bad DOES happen to someone it was because he was an asshole who thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over.

And on the once-every-twenty-years occasion when it's some golden boy hotshot whom everybody likes it's just an inexplicable freak accident, we probably never will know what really happened on that tow, at least he died doing what he loved, let's move along folks - nuthin' to see here, hey, how's the forecast for next weekend shaping up?

And what any aviation training program SHOULD be doing would be to start by scaring the crap out of you and tell you how a lot of highly experienced people have been snuffed in heartbeats, what went wrong, and how to best protect yourself from reruns.

- This "accident" should not have left you puzzled. There were pretty extensive discussions between:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31053
Poll on releases
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

and there was a pretty clearly demarcated division between the minority camp of smart Good Guys on the one hand and the horde sleazeballs, assholes, idiots, and wastes of space on the other.

And you might have noted that five of the Good Guy camp are people whose names appear on the Kite Strings membership list. (Larry, where were you? Really could've used ya on this one.)

And the Good Guy camp explained, illustrated, gunned down as well as anything you're gonna see here.

How can I or any student prepare for such an uncontrollable event such as what happened in Florida.

You can't afford to get close to a situation like that. You need to:
- understand that anybody who refers to one point towing as "pro" (or two) point towing is an asshole
- put a two point bridle on your glider and trim it such that:
-- you're close to neutral at normal tow speed, maybe resisting a little forward bar pressure
-- you're in about normal position in relation to the control bar
-- when you stuff the bar it's really stuffed - not moved back a few inches
- make sure that you're gonna be able to stay connected to at least one and a half Gs (good luck trying to do that behind a Dragonfly)

North Wing Horizon 180

Max certified operating weight - 335 pounds
1.5 G weak link - 503 pounds

Idiot fucking Bobby Bailey's idiot fucking tow mast breakaway is gonna limit you to about eighty percent of that - 1.19 Gs.

And the idiot fucking Aerotow Industry's three strand tow mast breakaway protector is probably gonna drop you down to below a G. And that ain't good.

Idiot fucking Bobby Bailey's idiot fucking standard aerotow weak link puts you at 0.67 Gs - 0.13 Gs south of min legal, 0.83 Gs south of something reasonably safe, and 1.33 Gs south of max legal.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21386
Can't seem to run fast enough to launch

GroundEffect - 2011/04/01 23:53:27 UTC

6'1" 235 pounds. 57 years old. Lookout Mountain flyer with Falcon 3 195...

Falcon 3 195 maxes out at 328. Seven pounds lighter. BFD.

Let's call your hook-in weight 260. (You're at what Quest considers to be a "typical glider" - before you've added in the glider.)

Actual 1.5 Gs on the Horizon - 473 pounds.
Gs with standard aerotow weak link - 0.72

If this young instructor of aerotow couldn't recover his glider then what chance would I have?

Between the safety advantage of flying two point and the safety disadvantage of flying 0.3 Gs lighter... About the same. Maybe a little better.

I understand there are many things that can go wrong and we are taught how to recognize and recover from them.

Try this, dude. If you see the Dragonfly rocket up... Don't wait for the thermal. Pop off before you get there. (And maybe see if you can go up with it.)

I have not seen or heard of anything that may have save this guy's life besides having more altitude.

This was a tumble. There are no guarantees after tumbles because there are no guarantees on getting parachutes successfully deployed in tumbles (and spins - which are the two times you're most likely to need them to successfully deploy).

I assume the glider tumbled following a hard stall. Is there anything that could have prevented this? I mean in the design of our gliders.

Try the design of the tow system instead - a lot cheaper, easier, more effective.

Please share your thoughts with me.

How 'bout sharing some thoughts with me now?