instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03 02:45:02 UTC

...and the glider was in good airworthy condition.

Really Paul?

A hang glider isn't certified as airworthy unless there's a pilot hooked in between the minimum and maximum specified weight and he's suspended underneath it in position to use the glider's full pitch/speed range.

Dennis Pagen writes of a thermal related aerotow takeoff fatality and near miss of his own, both very similar to the recent fatal incident at your flight park...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout.

...that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout.

Wasn't Zack...

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard and Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all.

...using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all? Wouldn't that have reduced the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout?

Isn't a glider under tow...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Michael Bradford - 2009/07/04 13:00:24 UTC
Rock Spring, Georgia

A glider under tow is a powered aircraft. String powered.

...a POWERED aircraft? String powered?

And if the tow force is subtracted instantly...

When climbing under power, the angle of attack is relevant to the climb path, not the horizon. And if the tow force is subtracted instantly, the angle of attack is instantly translated, whether or not there is pilot input.

...isn't the angle of attack instantly translated, whether or not there is pilot input?

Can't a classic Departure Stall...

A classic Departure Stall can easily, almost instantly result. Pitch and power are not independent forces.

...easily, almost instantly, result?

If a glider under tow is...

A glider under tow is a powered aircraft.

...a powered aircraft, wouldn't it be as critically important to ensure that nothing...

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

...can interrupt that power - especially on takeoff and climbout - as it is for any other powered aircraft?

Doesn't a standard 130 pound test weak link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...have something of a reputation for interrupting power on takeoff and climbout?

Shouldn't you folk at Quest who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years...

Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

...know something about that?

Remember when...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=988
Another HG tragedy

Paul Tjaden - 2005/09/05 23:55:24 UTC

Don't know if you guys are aware of this but I haven't seen anything on the forum so I thought I'd better post it.

Arlan Birkett (owner operator of Hang Glide Chicago) and an unidentified student died in a tandem hang gliding accident while on tow at Cushing Field near Chicago on Saturday evening at about 6:30. The details of the accident are not known although eye witness reports vary quite a bit. One witness said the glider fluttered and spun to the ground from two hundred feet up like a wounded bird while another said they locked out low and impacted before they could recover from the wing over created by the lock out. The student was said to be fairly experienced and just about ready for solo flight.

I met Arlan at Quest a couple years back and got to know him pretty well. He was a kind and lovable guy that gave a great deal to the sport and to the people who knew and loved him. He will be greatly missed.

...Jeremiah Thompson and Arlan Birkett, his tandem aerotow instructor, on 2005/09/03 after their nose high string powered aircraft became unattached from the tug as a consequence of somebody having tied a couple of elements of the tug's towing system together with a piece of fishing line?

Did you read the advisory USHGA put out in response to this one...

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
Safety Notice

HG Tandem Aerotow Operations - 2006/03/15

Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 ft.) The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

...warning that a very abrupt stall of a tandem glider could be caused which would result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect? That you might even get a tumble and structural failure out of the deal?

What did you think about THIS:

These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.

part?

Frankly, I didn't think it was all that much of a stretch to conclude that if a nose high tandem glider could go down like a fuckin' brick when the string popped...

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...a solo glider probably could too. Hell, I've had my solo glider go down like a fuckin' brick just by the air dumping me - no intact or popping strings anywhere around at all.

Sure is a good thing the reaction of solo glider, "because of the lighter wing loading"...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...isn't as severe, isn't it Paul?

If you should happen to see Steve Kroop...

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

...tell him to go fuck himself for me. Paul Voight goes without saying.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC

Zapata has delivered as promised, day after day with howling winds and good lift, where flights of over 100 miles (and much more) are possible.

Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around. Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links, though Tad's barrel releases do seem better able to release under stress. After Russell got a new rope and Paul recovered, he was late leaving and got trapped under some cirrus.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.

Ya know sumpin', Paul and Lauren...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=988
Another HG tragedy

Paul Tjaden - 2005/09/05 23:55:48 UTC

Arlan Birkett (owner operator of Hang Glide Chicago) and an unidentified student died I met Arlan at Quest a couple years back and got to know him pretty well. He was a kind and lovable guy that gave a great deal to the sport and to the people who knew and loved him. He will be greatly missed.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

The more you fuckin' assholes would start using weak links to protect your aircraft against overloading and the less you'd try to use them as lockout preventers and to save tow and hang glider pilots who get too far out of whack the fewer people you'd be greatly/sorely missing.

That's two advanced tandem aerotow instructors you're sorely missing - plus one of their students whom other people are sorely missing - in the space of a day under seven years and five months because of the focal point of your safe towing system. And the trend is that you're just getting increasingly stupid.

But, hell, keep up the great work. At least it helps ME get through to people capable of getting a few synapses to fire once in while.

P.S. I'll bet Mark...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

...really appreciated the way his Quest Link saved him the inconvenience of getting his tail pulled around the way a Tad-O-Link - or double loop of 130 pound Greenspot or a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot at a good angle - can pull Russell's.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28858
Getting into the sport! Advise appreciated!

Paul Edwards - 2013/04/20 00:52:10 UTC

The main reason hang gliding is reasonably safe today is because of the excellent training we have today that didn't exist thirty years ago.

Ya know Paul...

You weren't around thirty years ago. I was. Hell, I was around thirty-three years ago this month. And thirty-three years ago...
- There were no training harnesses that forced students into the upright position.
- The concept of forcing a student to fly an entire mountain flight upright would've been incomprehensible.
- Nobody towed up on chintzy towlines because that was a good way to get killed.
- Releases worked under load.
- Defective releases were taken out of circulation.
- Heated disagreements were published in letters to the editor and magazine articles.
- Crash and fatality reports went to the Accident Review Committee Chairman.
- Crash and fatality reports, data, and analyses were published in the magazine.
- There were no inexplicable freak accidents.
- recommendations to lift gliders to tension suspension just prior to launch a appeared in the magazine.
- Jim Rooney was twenty-two years away from entering the sport.

So hang gliding's reasonably safe compared to what?

Name some of the excellent instructors who provide this excellent training...
- Mike Robertson?
- Steve Wendt?
- Sunny Venesky?
- Jim Rooney?
- Lauren Tjaden?
- Mark Knight?
- Bart Weghorst?
- Trisa Tilletti?
- Paul Voight?
- Ryan Voight?
- Tom Galvin?
- Joe Greblo?
- Jeff Hunt?
- Joel Froehlich?
- Zack Marzec?

If the training's so fucking good then why:
- is everything in hang gliding a matter of opinion?
- do all aerotow pilots suck so bad that they need loops of fishing line to act as their Pilots In Command?
- are instructors total absent from postmortem discussions except to tell us:
-- the guy was an accident waiting to happen;
-- he just froze;
-- you must hook in;
-- always release the towline before there is a problem;
-- he probably got hit by a dust devil;
-- shit happens;
-- engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction;
-- not to speculate?

If you're having any trouble answering these questions try pulling your nose out of the industry's ass and see if you don't get a better flow of oxygen to your brain.

[Steve Davy]

This video depicts some of "the excellent training we have today that didn't exist thirty years ago".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku4GP1P62fA
Lookout Mountain Flight Park- First flight from the big training hill
Christopher Albers - 2013/04/21
dead

Under the guidance of a USHPA certified, Lookout Mountain Flight Park instructor the student managed to kill himself inside a span of one minute forty seconds.

I'd say you have a rather distorted sense of "reasonably safe", Paul.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Dave Hopkins - 2011/01/18 04:52:12 UTC

There's Lot of truth in the quote" good judgement come from wisdom wisdom comes from bad judgement".

Translation: Hang gliding instruction totally sucks.

Concerning crashing a HG I have accumulated some wisdom.

Sure Dave, whatever you say.

It has led me to believe hang gliders cannot go fast enough to kill us.

People have no problem whatsoever getting killed at and below typical hang glider stall speed. It doesn't take all that much to snap a neck.

I believe at least 90% of fatal crashes were survivable.

Not that interested - 'cause my take is that at least 99.9 percent of them were easily avoidable.

You say how can I make such claims. I say because I' ve been there.

Yeah, one look at your writing should tell the casual reader that you've had your bell rung pretty good a few times.

In my 30 plus yrs of flying I have had a bunch of terrible crashes.

At least you're not calling them accidents.

They Should have killed me many times over. Does this make me a bad pilot. Well most of them were when me and the sport were younger so forgive me.

OK. But the sport sucked then and a lot of it's gotten worse. All it needed to do was look at how conventional aviation was being conducted and model itself accordingly to the maximum extent possible.

I would rather dazzle you with stories of great XCs but this is more important.

And what's infinitely more important than this is the subject of piloting aircraft to take the crashes out of the equations.

What has saved my skinny butt many times was using my head ! I have not listened to the pilots that say to just let go or ball up and let go. That's fine if you blow your flare and want to save a d-t...

Did you need to do the flare in the first place?

...but it will only kill you if you are in a serious crash situation. What we must do is quickly assess the gravity in the situation. Meaning altitude and speed may.equal pain and death. Its a simple equation and the only thing you have to soften the impact is your glider. Here how to use it.

If you had a fuckin' clue how to fly it you wouldn't need to learn how to use it for crashing.

Let me show you how I earned my degree in crashing.

Granted by the wizard him self.

My second mt flight. AZ, may 1978. MK1 dragonfly. launch into a thermal .

Good idea for your second mountain flight.

Nose got a bit high.

And there was absolutely nothing you could've done to keep that from happening. The nose just decided to get high and ripped the bar out of your hands.

Tip stalled and did a 180 back at the hill.

I almost killed myself in a similar manner on an Eaglet trainer on one of my first soaring dune soaring forays. Tip stalled, spun around faster than I could blink, ended up in a crumpled heap but unscathed on the back side of the dune. But that didn't happen because the nose got a bit high. It happened because I didn't know what I was doing and was flying too slowly.

Flew straight in to the rocks at 40mph on the nose. Humm? First times Ive crashed one of these things. Well lets keep the head away from impact. Hands on middle of the D-Ts and rode it in . Totaled the glider. Wrapped d-ts, leading edges, keel, wires around me but I had no injuries. If I had let go I would be dead. The glider absorb the impact.

Congratulations.

Dragonflies were tip stallers. Never fly a tip staller!

OR... Carry some extra speed so they don't tip stall.

You may say that's a good way to get spiral fractures but I am long armed and was construction worker. Those 1' .065 tubes were bending before I when through them..

Any recommendations for people who are short armed and weren't construction workers?

Bluehill Maine , 78 June. Mk 1 dragonfly repaired. Doing a 360 to get into LZ. Stalled down wind and glider fell 50' to ground.

Totally unavoidable, right?

I stayed in prone and impacted with no damage to me or glider. Soft spring ground.

Dry sand works pretty well too.

Well, I bruised my ankle on a rock.

Especially without any rocks - which is often the case on dunes.

I would broke both legs, ripped organs and died if I put my feet down. There were big rocks around. I used my head to give me the best of survival. Luck is always a factor but at least give your self a chance!

How 'bout not stalling the glider at fifty feet?

Maine 82 waldo mt ,wind 20mph. launching Dragonfly. Tip stalled spun 180 degs straight back into bare granite.

Have you tried pulling the bar in a couple more inches?

I swung out of prone as the glider when around and put both feet on the base bar and rode it in. Folding as the glider folded. I tore the sleeve of my s***.

That word needs an "r" in it near the end - otherwise Jack's software replaces the last three letters with asterisks.

Big Jeff Nickolay was there, he commented" boy you guys are tough". vario was still usable.
If I had let go of the bars I would be dead! granite is very hard. use your head! Just because the glider has quit flying doesn't mean you quit trying to save your butt.

OR... You could make an extra effort to keep the glider flying when you're within striking distance of bare granite.

Truck towing WINTERPORT MAINE 80's Testing a sky sports Osprey. I Shouldn't have towed that glider. lockout at 100' .

And you were totally unable to abort the tow before things got really ugly because your hands were on the basetube and your release lanyard was within easy reach.

Crashed straight in to the ground . I got my hands high on the up rights and balled up and crumpled the glider. I was knock out but had no injuries. If I had let go of the bars I would have died. You can not survive being slammed in the ground at 45 mph. Your organs will be all ripped loose. Your brain will turn to mush! I've seen it. We must make the glider take the blow.

What was the cost of the crash and how do you think it would've compared to the cost of engineering a release you could've used to abort the tow?

Owens valley early 90s. Landing at janey's in gusty 30 mph. HP 1. Gust from the side stuck a tip in and glider was cartwheeled.

Because your hands were on the downtubes and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...your control authority totally sucked.

I grabbed the top of the d-ts pulled my butt up and rode it over . broke a leading edge. no injuries to me.

So there was absolutely nothing you could've been doing differently and the next time you get gusted from the side you're gonna cartwheel, grab the tops of the downtubes, pull your butt up, ride it over, break a leading edge, and not get injured.

It's the early Nineties now, dude. You and the sport are no longer young and the gliders are pretty airworthy.

Mcclure's early 90s. Test flying Mitchell wing with control bar. An other dammed tip staller! I'm a slow learner?

Yes.

Stalled a tip shortly after launch and dove in from 200' at 70 mph.

And a chronically slow flyer.

Realizing I wasn't pulling out...

Which wouldn't have been an issue if you had been pulled in a little more a few seconds prior.

...I grab the top of one D-t , balled up and turned away from the ground. Impact was horrific. I didn't expect to survive. Knock out a bit. As I came too I starter moving body parts and found I was OK.

You weren't OK when you stalled the glider and it's hard for me to believe you got better as a consequence of yet another serious crash.

I had a sore foot but that was minor broken bones.

In other words, you WEREN'T OK.

It was three days before I could fly again!

GREAT!!! Plenty more bones where those came from.

K Ms comment was that he had seen a miracle. No one should have survived that. A clump of manzanita bushes help break the impact.

And a few broken bones in your foot and, presumably, the glider.

So you see when I say I understand about crashing a HG it comes from, been there done that. If I say Pilots should not be get injured and killed its because I have pushed the limits of crashing a HG and I have some idea what is possible.

Maybe now we could hear a few words from somebody of the not crashing the glider persuasion?

Recently There was a movie on the OZ report showing how to crash.

And, at:
http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
equipment to give you really good shots at opportunities to practice.

It is bad advice! He crashed into tall grass, soft ground and water. In a real hard earht crash situation only putting the glider between you and the ground gives us a chance to survive. We are weak fragile creatures. Our heads are like pumpkins.

There do tend to be significant differences in the contents from individual to individual, however.

Our necks break like twigs. We must keep our heads up and make the gliders absorb the shock and allow our feet, legs or lower sides to hit first . They can take hundred of times the force our heads.

No thanks.

One thing I've noticed in every crash situation I described. First we need to realize this glider has quit flying and impact is imminent.. Our life could be over in moments. If we had a supercomputer to figure it all out we might get a list of instructions how to survive the next 3 seconds . WE DO, ITS CALLED A BRAIN >USE IT.

What if there were some way we could get are brains to kick in three seconds prior to the pooch screw?

Here's some clues. There is a moment of weightlessness during the spin or dive. This gives us the time to rotate up get a hold of the top of the up rights and get behind the D-tubes. It at least gives our head a chance not be the crack at the end of the whip.

Ya know sumpin', dude.

- I know how to prevent that moment of weightlessness during the spin or dive.

- If I WERE to exprerience a moment of weightlessness during a spin or dive every available synapse and muscle cell I owned would be going into overdrive in an effort to get the glider flying and under control again.

- If you were better at flying and responding to emergency situations you wouldn't be so good at surviving devastating crashes.

To me this is the saving grace of Hgs verses PGs. Those guys have no chance. It's not possible to cover every possible crash situation.

It is, however, quite possible to avoid them all over decades worth of a flying career.

I think it does pertain to many crash situation. Ive had my share and seen many more. The key is to keep using our control to protect our upper bodys as much as possible even when the gliders is out of control.

If I use my control to keep or get my glider flying I don't hafta worry about protecting my body.

May you never have to use this advice.

Fear not a whit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

2011/01/18 05:24:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2011/02/10 02:52:17 UTC - 3 thumbs up - rallyant

No surprise there, Jonathan.

Tom Galvin - 2011/02/01 16:51:35 UTC
Pagosa Springs

Bump

Righteous Stuff there, Tom. Maybe you could get together with Dave and come up with the best body position to use to minimize injury after an unhooked launch.

miguel - 2011/02/01 17:30:02 UTC

Good write up!

Jesus H. Christ, miguel.

MarkM - 2011/02/01 17:44:56 UTC
Dayton

I read the other post that you mention and appreciate the additional information.

It's amazing that Wilbur and Orville never published anything this good.

kukailimoku - 2011/02/01 18:22:55 UTC
Oahu

A quick thought to add...

My one really horrific crash was quick, a surprise and close to the ground. There was no time to rotate up or react at all...heck I didn't even get a complete, "Oh sh--" out before blammo. The most serious of the injuries was a nasty concussion, which is stupid.

Why?

I was wearing the old style hockey/kayaking helmet while my shiny new full-face lid was in my car...'cause it was warm out that day.

Duh.

1. Have a GREAT helmet, not just something to help locate your head.
2. Use it.

How 'bout telling us how and why you crashed? Not everyone is lucky enough to come down on his head such that a GREAT helmet does him any good.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Dave Hopkins - 2011/02/01 22:15:38 UTC

This is a broad and important subject I believe most of the crashes that kill pilots are totally survivable.

And twenty times as preventable - as you've illustrated in all of your examples.

The last two were of that nature I believe.

Which two? What was going on five seconds before the crashes?

One thing I've noticed about most fatal crashes often the glider has minimal damage it's the pilot that is all busted up. Use the glider for a crumple zone!

How 'bout using the glider for a glider so you don't get to the point of using it for a crumple zone?

Landing head down is a bad habit.

Agreed. Best to stay prone and land with head forward.

I am amazed at the survive rate of the head down whacks I see.

Virtually every one of which was precipitated by an attempt to land head up.

Scary stuff.

Stupid stuff.

Don't try to emulate the local hot shots that are landing head down.

- NOBODY lands head DOWN. Do try to learn the difference between DOWN and FORWARD.

- Here's a hotshot landing:

http://vimeo.com/36062225

13-3826
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14023968220_1a5cf14aa5_o.png


with his head FORWARD until the glider's all the way down and just about stopped.

- Here's a safety conscious regular Joe landing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0


with his head up and a safe distance from the ground.

- Compare/Contrast.

By being head up behind the bar we can push out quicker and further getting away from the ground.

Yeah. Right.

If you get caught going through the bar an other important save our ass technique is to grab one D-T with both hands. This will rotate our head around the bar making our butt hit first. I rather get a kick in the ass then in the head.

I'd rather land my glider in such a manner as to pretty much eliminate the possibility of getting either.

We should have all these techniques in our mind.

Especially assholes who are hardwired into stopping on their feet at all costs.

Develop habits that give the most options for survival.

I don't wanna crash often enough that my response becomes a habit.

Don't be caught like a deer in the headlights. WHACK! THUD!
Practice swinging one hand over in flight to get some muscle memory. Rounding out with our feet down and head up makes for a good chance of long HG survival.

Bullshit. Maximizing control of the glider and flying it until it stops is your best bet for staying healthy.

Flying the glider again is always optional . Our loved ones would want it that way.

I thought we're all cool as long as we died doing something we loved.

Good habits keep us safe. We can fly years with a bad habit but it will bite us sooner or later.

Yeah...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c


Make sure you keep that head up. Hard to go wrong doing that.

2011/02/01 22:31:40 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Larry West

Jesus H. Christ, Larry.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Rolla Manning - 2011/02/02 03:10:33 UTC
Las Vegas

Dave, you are spot on brother

As Pilots, our only goal when we take our beloved glider off of the rack, is to make sure we are able to put it back on the rack in airworthy condition. I for one also like to put my a$$ back on the seat of my truck without a scratch.

Really Rolla?

Rolla Manning

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body. But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting "Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

I thought it was beat the crap out of ourselves so as to spend our later years crippled and in pain looking back fondly on all the stupid shit we've done and destruction we've caused.

I am about to hurt some feelings here of instructors but oh well.

Fuck instructors.

I never had an instructor, I was self taught like a lot of the old timers here. I learned by example, observing and soaking up everything I could.

As a solo sport, when we learn to fly we rely on everything we have learned by listening, observing and trial and error to get us safely back to the ground.

- How 'bout by reading and understanding the basic principles of aviation?
- Name something we need to learn by trial and error.

If you learned to fly through an instructor, he most likely will try to instill the BASICS...

If you learned to fly through an instructor...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...be advised that he can feed you any load of total crap he feels like with no fear of accountability whatsoever.

...and not give you all the tools you will need to save your life in every possible situation.

But you'll be really close to having perfected your flare timing and spot landings.

Instruction is very structured and rigid at times...

Hang checks, the Five Cs, weak link break recovery, Cone of Safety...

...(no that's not right do it again...and...again)

(You were a little again late that time. Let's keep working on it (to the exclusion of turns and tight approaches.)

They have guide lines to follow...

Like the definition of "just prior to launch" - fifteen minutes or so.

...that keeps the student well within the safety zone.

Bullshit.

Finish A, B, C, D, and you are a Hang Glider Pilot. Very few will teach MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE maneuvers to there students. Not surprisingly these are the very maneuvers that will save your life one day.

But if we started teaching anything USEFUL that would be an admission that we were negligent in not having taught it before and that would make us vulnerable to liability issues resulting from all the previous cripplings and killings.

When I was handed my private pilots license both the examiner and my instructor said to me, " Now you have a license to learn" and I have tried to be a sponge and soak up everything I can from everyone I can.

Aside, of course, from...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

Tad has been BANNED again.

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site. Go crawl back under your rock with Bob and the other extremists that get themselves banned from every site and group they deal with. You guys have a marvelous record of getting along with people.

...The Extremist One Percent. You definitely don't wanna be listening to anyone who doesn't have a great record of getting along with everyone - just people like Rob Kells who are friends to every pilot they meet.

I was blessed with a very good IP when I was getting my PPL and stayed with him through Commercial, Instrument and Helicopter training. He taught me max-perf at every step and on every airplane and heli I flew.

How much time did you spend working on your flare timing?

I know what some are saying, this is a rambling rant from some a$$ hole GA guy but I started HG in 1978 and didn't start flying airplanes till 1986. My IP was surprised that a HG Pilot could have such good knowledge of things aviation, go figure.

Yeah. Speaks volumes about the quality of a typical hang glider jockey, don't it?

Our brains are our best tool to keep us out of trouble...

Yeah. Now where have I heard something like that before? Oh yeah...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1149
[TUGS] aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates

Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:08:32 UTC

Hey Tad.

Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.

...and the first thing to get use into it.

Any thoughts on what was wrong with Zack Marzec's brain?

Flying is a very fluid activity to begin with, and if we do not keep our brains constantly thinking of every option available to us in flight...

- Remaining on tow, being able to blow tow with BOTH hands on the basetube, not landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place, bellying in...

- Two seconds prior to launch. Are there any options available at that point which could make huge differences in the way our day goes?

...we are just a few moments away from our demise. The worse thing that we can do as Pilots is to think that we have no more options available to use in a sticky or even emergency situation...

Drop into those soft looking bushes twenty feet below, climb up into the control frame, hold onto the basetube with one hand while deploying the parachute with the other...

...and just curl up in the control bar and grit our teeth and close our eye for the hit thats coming.

Sometimes when you've done NOTHING to fix KNOWN problems...

Doug Hildreth - 1991/06

Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.

Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.

I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...that may be your only option.

I for one would prefer to fight with every breath, brain cell, skill, suggestion or technic I have heard of. Whether it is something I have tried, seen, or heard about makes no difference to me. I will fly the glider to the ground with every tool I have available.

Versus Dave's strategy of trying to get as much glider as possible between him and the granite?

When you actually think that you have no more options, that is the moment you become a passenger hoping the glider will save you...

Via its ability to absorb energy by crumpling.

...and not the pilot in command.

When Pro Toad Zack had the bar stuffed and his Rooney Link popped before the situation was stabilized, who was the Pilot In Command?

Who many times have we had a HG pilot get turned in to the hill and died because they didn't even think it was possible to actually land a glider up hill down wind and survive.

I dunno... Who many times do you think?

Instead they revert back to the basics of gaining enough speed to turn away from the hill and the mind fixates on only one option.

Whether you're planning on turning away from the hill or landing uphill and downwind gaining speed is NOT a bad idea.

We all know the out come of that one, high speed face plant.

Bullshit. If he's together enough to pull in to maximize his option for turning away he's also together enough to push out prior to impact. If he does a high speed face plant it's because he didn't have enough airspeed to do anything useful.

I have not been a member of the cyber flying community very long but I have noticed a trend. If you make a suggestion on an old or new technic of doing something that is out side of the ushPA "norm" of instruction or maneuver. You will get beat down by some on these forums before your key pad cools down from your post.

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

If just one of the instructors would teach max-perf on the light wind days and have students make 180 turns onto downwind gentle up sloop landings.

Not a good idea to land on sailboats regardless of the circumstances.

Taught that there is no such thing as a always into the wind full flare no step landing on every flight. Teach them that we always have options. Like a cross wind (or down wind) upwind wing tip low (or dragging ) running (or sliding ) turn to up wind landing!!! Then just maybe we could instill the most basic of flying skills we have in our arsenal, the Brain and the use of it all the way to touchdown!!!!

I didn't hear anything about wheels.

If we do not experiment with that gray area of what our gliders and we as pilots are capable of doing in the best of conditions. We will never be willing to go down that dark road on the day when our life's are on the line.

When our life's what are on the line?

Right there that instant is the time that we must not second guess our skills and the gliders ability to do what we must to save our life's.

Sigh.

I am not saying to just jump right out there and do a 20mph down wind slider up hill in a box canyon. I am saying that we all would benefit from doing max performance maneuvers in our daily flying and in our minds to give us every chance available to us as Thinking Pilots.

What percentage of the assholes on The Jack Show are you estimating to be capable of THINKING?

The last thing we should hear when we are signing a buddies cast is

"I never thought of that"

Or, for that matter, much of ANYTHING.

Dave, your knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated!!

Even though what he's saying is pretty much the polar opposite of what you're saying.

We are all constantly learning from each other.

Precisely. And with The Extremist One Percent not allowed on that site that's a total recipe for disaster.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Erik Boehm - 2011/02/02 09:59:22 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2011/01/18 04:52:12 UTC

just let go or ball up and let go. That's fine if you blow your flare and want to save a d-t

Or, more importantly, save yourself from two spiral fractures of the humerus.

What we must do is quickly assess the gravity in the situation. Meaning altitude and speed may.equal pain and death. Its a simple equation and the only thing you have to soften the impact is your glider.

Agreed.

Hands on middle of the D-Ts and rode it in .

put both feet on the base bar and rode it in.

Well they do tell you to climb into the control frame during...

After.

...a parachute deployment...

When you are no longer flying, have become a passenger, and have all the time in the world.

...never thought about doing it in a more standard crash scenario- takes some time to get in that position, and you have less control, makes me wonder if you could have avoided the crash altogether.

How very odd! I was wondering THE EXACT SAME THING.

I got my hands high on the up rights and balled up and crumpled the glider. I was knock out but had no injuries.

I grabbed the top of the d-ts pulled my butt up and rode it over . broke a leading edge. no injuries to me.

Hmmm I wonder if putting your hands up higher on the downtubes may reduce the risk of a spiral fracture.

Nowhere near as well as avoiding the crash altogether.

Realizing I wasn't pulling out I grab the top of one D-t , balled up and turned away from the ground.

Now here is getting close to what I was told, and that is to let go of one DT, and grab the other with both hands. You won't get a spiral fracture that way, and the glider hits first, you'll swing around the DT and everything will be in tension,

We must keep our heads up and make the gliders absorb the shock and allow our feet, legs or lower sides to hit first . They can take hundred of times the force our heads.

Yes, protect your head and neck, if you are going to crash (not talking a poorly times flare), you have time to get out of prone, and grab a DT to keep your head up, near the apex of the control frame will be one of the last parts to hit, as everything else has crumpled.

If you have time to get out of prone and grab a downtube to keep your head up you almost certainly have time not to crash. And I'd like to see a video of something indicating otherwise.

One thing I've noticed in every crash situation I described. First we need to realize this glider has quit flying and impact is imminent. Our life could be over in moments.

Yes, but likewise, when you blow a flare/landing...

Which we didn't need to be doing in the first place.

...the glider also quits flying...

Which it WOULDN'T have done if we had kept flying it until it dropped down on its wheels - the way things are done in REAL aviation.

...but its not life threatening...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11946
Once again with wheels

Rich Jesuroga - 2008/05/19 17:49:23 UTC

A few years back a friend who had good landing skills missed ONE. Stuck his speed bar in the dirt and whacked hard. He swung through the control bar and hit the top of his helmet on the keel buckling his neck. He was a quadriplegic for eight months before committing suicide. Would wheels have worked? YES - no debate by those who were there and witnessed the accident.

...it can be very threatening to your humerus though.

This is the situation the common advice applies to.

The problem is that that common advice is pretty much totally useless because people are trying to fly gliders when it happens.

Really dude, kudos to you for surviving all that, but have you put as much time into avoiding those crashes altogether as you have into finding a way to survive them?

Obviously fucking not.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Bill Bennett - 2011/02/09 21:13:38 UTC
Arizona

A very good friend of mine and I were discussing this thread the last few times we flew together.

But let's not mention his name.

Unfortunately, he had a bad launch yesterday, tip stalled his wing and turned back into the hill. Thankfully, he only sustained a compound fracture of both his tibia and fibula.

SUPER! I love it whenever I only sustain a compound fracture of both my tibia and fibula.

Kinda like the way Peter Birren loves it...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

...when his 0.8 G weak link keeps him from getting dragged after he's broken four ribs and his larynx.

After talking with him in the hospital today, he told me he made a conscious decision to go into the hill feet first when the crash was inevitable.

- Good thing you guys had been discussing this thread the last few times you flew together. Otherwise he might have made a conscious decision to go into the hill head first when the crash was inevitable.

- What did he say about how he might have avoided getting to the point at which the crash was inevitable?

Thank you Dave for posting this thread as I'm glad my friend is still riding this rock around the sun and will be able to fly with him again someday.

And do please let us know as soon as he does, won't you? 'Cause in my experience lotsa times people to whom shit like this happens tend to find other hobbies after regaining their ability to walk.

Dave Hopkins - 2011/02/09 22:47:29 UTC

Sorry you friend was injured
Wow, I'm glad my advice helped.

Keep up the great work, Dave. Any interest in WHY he tip stalled his wing and turned back into the hill?

Crashing is a tough subject to discuss, But one thing I'm sure of. Our choices are few when it comes to protecting our heads in a violent crash in a HG. Using the glider for crumple zone gives us the best chance..

He didn't use the glider for the crumple zone. He used one of his legs.

Grabing te top of the D-Ts and pulling our asses away from the ground is all we can do.

I prefer not to get to that point, thank you just the same.

Dave Hopkins - 2011/02/09 23:03:00 UTC

I was flying gliders that were tip stallers.

They aren't tip stallers until you slow them down to the point at which a tip can stall.

I don't do that now.

Great! Can you tell the rest of us what glider you're flying that's immune to tip stalls so we can all go out and get one just like it?

From those accidents...

From those WHATS?

I gained experience that I am trying to pass on to the general flying community.

Have any contemporaries who flew the same tip stallers and DIDN'T gain quite as much crash experience as you did who might have a few comments to pass on pass on to the general flying community?

I have seen many crashes and serious injury and deaths in my 32 yrs of HGing . Most of those could have been avoided had the pilots done more to protect themselves.

OR... Not crashed.

As long as we fly we may crash.

My feeling is that the probability of experiencing serious crashes varies a bit from individual to individual.

Yes even a great pilot like you. It's the nature of what we do.

It's the nature of what SOME OF US do.

Lets at least give ourselves and our buddies the best chance to fly again. Reusing the same glider is OPTIONAL !

The BEST chance we can give them is to train them to the point that a serious crash is a virtual impossibility. And that IS doable. And the vast majority of people in General and Commercial aviation seem to be able to pull it off OK.

2011/02/10 00:40:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - st1lgar

Nic Welbourn - 2011/02/10 01:37:30 UTC
Canberra

Five stars Dave, thanks for posting!

Gawd.

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/10 01:48:41 UTC

Sorry to hear of your friends accident. I hope he makes a fast and complete recovery.

I have EVERY CONFIDENCE that he WILL make a fast and complete recovery. Thankfully, he only sustained a compound fracture of both his tibia and fibula.