landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Red Howard - 2014/03/26 03:02:23 UTC

Michael,

You are betting your health, your glider, and maybe your life, that you will not hit sink as you approach the LZ. I would not make that bet. If you hit some sink, and the LZ "starts" with a fence, you would be on the wrong side of that fence, and deep into whatever the landscape there may offer.

If the target is in the middle of the field, you would be as safe in an undershoot situation, as you would be in an overshoot of the target. Putting the target near either end of the field (upwind or downwind) is very unsafe.

Please take a poll (publicly or privately), and come back with a list of HG pilots here who think that it is okay to "put it on the numbers" as your "normal" landing scenario (landing as close as possible after just clearing the inbound fence).

Otherwise, you may be wanting some good health-care insurance.
P.S. There is no such thing as a "medical bankruptcy." The bills would be due in full.

Hey Red...

Please take a poll (publicly or privately), and come back with a list of HG pilots anywhere who have crashed or ever heard of people crashing because they thought that it was okay to "put it on the numbers" as their "normal" landing scenario (landing as close as possible after just clearing the inbound fence).

Cite me ONE FUCKING INCIDENT - anywhere, any time.

And then let's see what we can come up with in the way of assholes who've slammed into fences, treelines, trees, parked cars and gliders, taxiway signs, ponds, cornfields, ravines, houses, boulders, powerlines, the ground because the assholes this sport passes off as instructors taught them to land on Frisbees in centers of primaries.

I myself can give you examples of all of those - a bunch from eyewitness perspective, one - pretty arguably - from personal perspective.

Notice that you're not hearing from a whole lot of your Jack Show asshole buddies chiming in with yeah-I-tried-that-once--cost-me-a-trip-to-the-emergency-room-and-the-rest-of-the-2009-season or accounts of their buddies who aren't around in the sport anymore?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20991
coated vs uncoated wires

Red Howard - 2011/02/22 06:50:21 UTC
Utah

I do not recommend "stepping" on a cable (I assume you mean in mid-span) as part of a preflight. If your foot hits the ground with the cable underneath, or sand or rocks are trapped in your shoe treads, you could damage the cable that you are testing.

ALL of the Wills Wing manuals SPECIFY that you DO "step" on the cables (mid-span) as part of EVERY preflight. And, believe it or not, there ARE people who actually DO Read The Fucking Manual...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJV_t4L92pE


http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=684
why good preflights are a must........

Allen Binder - 2007/05/03 06:23:25 UTC
El Segundo & Sylmar

I like what the Wills Wing manuals for their current hang gliders tell you to do for part of a pre-flight check; The manuals state that you should:

while pushing up on the leading edge between the nose and the crossbar junction, step on the bottom side wire with about 75 lbs. of force. This is a rough field test of the structural security of the side wire loop, the control bar, the kingpost, and the crossbar, and will likely reveal a major structural defect that could cause an in-flight failure in normal operation.

(I believe that the T2 manual states to use 50 lbs of force and leaves out the kingpost in the description of the structures being tested since it doesn't have a kingpost.)

Every time that I do my preflight, I always do that "step on the bottom side wire" test on the right and left side wires. I sure hope that most people do this test when preflighting their glider because it's a quick test and makes a lot of sense to me.

...and follow the fucking instructions - despite the best efforts of the many dickheads such as yourself pressuring them to do otherwise. So can you cite ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of ONE SINGLE STRAND breaking as a result of this practice?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed. Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

Do all you fucking USHGA instructor shits get a segment on finding deadly solutions to totally fictional and absurd problems as part of your certification process?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Dave Hopkins - 2014/03/26 15:19:39 UTC

Hitting the spot is not as important as hitting a specific spot and alititude to clear a last obstacle. here at Ellenville going SW there is a fence to cross and the LZ is narrow so you should setup to be able to dive at the fence. Depending on the performance of your wing you may need to take other glide control techniques to get close to the spot . 15' to high and you will go into the brush. Setting up some what diagonal will give you a wider field.
Coming the other way NE you need to clear the brush of the pumkin patch. If you over shoot you can now hit the fence or gliders and trucks.
Coming to the south you approach over a 100' tree line and the field can get short if it's lifting or you are high or have to much speed.
All of these approaches require hitting spots of altitude and position to hit the spot in the middle of the field. It's obvious most pilots need to train their approach thinking . It's usually a whack fest on a busy day.
Approach control is glide control to a very specific spot. We have only one shot at it every time. Dividing this to 3 spots allows us more time to fine tune the last spot. Knowing our wings and making safe dependable approaches needs to be understood and practiced to a high level. This is an important part of be coming an advanced pilot.

Hitting the spot is not as important as hitting a specific spot and alititude to clear a last obstacle.

NOTHING is more important than hitting the spot. The reason virtually every last one of us is in the sport is because ever since we were small children our dreams were all about foot landing on Frisbees in the middles of fields. Everything else in this sport merely serves as a tool for realizing that dream. Fuck you, Dave.

here at Ellenville going SW there is a fence to cross and the LZ is narrow so you should setup to be able to dive at the fence. Depending on the performance of your wing you may need to take other glide control techniques to get close to the spot .

Like what?

- Maybe a hard diving turn...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Tom Lyon - 2014/02/04 07:55:19 UTC

In learning to fly the sailplanes, I had it drilled into me that below two hundred feet, my options did not include anything more than maybe a very slight turn to avoid hitting an obstacle. Like thirty degrees from my heading maybe. A slight bank.

...to bring it around onto final?

- Might that be a good situation...



...to bring a drag chute into play?

15' to high and you will go into the brush.

But you'll be fifteen feet less likely to fly into the fence. Decisions, decisions...

Setting up some what diagonal will give you a wider field.

Which will be twice as important after you've come in targeting the Frisbee.

Coming the other way NE you need to clear the brush of the pumkin patch. If you over shoot you can now hit the fence or gliders and trucks.

Are you sure about that, Dave? Has that actually happened at Ellenville...

Tad Eareckson - 2014/03/26 15:52:39 UTC

And then let's see what we can come up with in the way of assholes who've slammed into fences, treelines, trees, parked cars and gliders, taxiway signs, ponds, cornfields, ravines, houses, boulders, powerlines, the ground because the assholes this sport passes off as instructors taught them to land on Frisbees in centers of primaries.

...or does it just look like a pretty likely scenario?

Coming to the south you approach over a 100' tree line and the field can get short if it's lifting or you are high or have to much speed.

Then wouldn't THIS:

05-2704-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


approach make a lot more sense than one that brings you in OVER the trees?

All of these approaches require hitting spots of altitude and position to hit the spot in the middle of the field.

BULLSHIT.

- For a particular set of conditions (field, wind direction and strength) there is essentially ONE best place to be when you level out onto final and it's determined by the position of the last downwind obstruction. And there are a zillion different ways you can safely arrive at that position.

- When you've made it to that position then why does the fucking Frisbee halfway down the runway matter worth a rat's ass?

It's obvious most pilots need to train their approach thinking .

Which, if that's true - and it IS - is another way of saying that most instructors and instructional programs totally suck.

It's usually a whack fest on a busy day.

1. Great job, Greg Black and Paul Voight.

2. This is a whack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c


Whacks aren't results of over or undershooting fields. They're almost entirely the results of stunt landing attempts in putting greens - like the one you're talking about.

Approach control is glide control to a very specific spot.

Fuck you and your very specific spot. Once you're coming in on optimal final the whole goddam field is as much specificity as anybody needs.

We have only one shot at it every time. Dividing this to 3 spots allows us more time to fine tune the last spot.

Why three? Why not come in with extra altitude and/or speed and take as many or few spots as you feel like?

Knowing our wings and making safe dependable approaches needs to be understood and practiced to a high level.

How are we gonna find the time for learning to make and understand safe and dependable approaches when we're dedicating all of our free time to learning to do no-steppers on Frisbees at middles of fields?

This is an important part of be coming an advanced pilot.

Like this guy?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA


How does he rate in comparison to Niki here:

3:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsvXEuZWeo


on her first Hang Two solo without benefit of a Frisbee?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

michael170 - 2014/03/26 16:48:22 UTC

Red Howard - 2014/03/26 03:02:23 UTC

You are betting your health, your glider, and maybe your life, that you will not hit sink as you approach the LZ.

You're making false assumptions about how I approach the LZ.

I would not make that bet.

Neither would I.

If you hit some sink, and the LZ "starts" with a fence, you would be on the wrong side of that fence, and deep into whatever the landscape there may offer.

No I wouldn't. I'm not going to put myself into such a ridiculous and easily avoidable situation as you describe.

If the target is in the middle of the field, you would be as safe in an undershoot situation, as you would be in an overshoot of the target.

I don't do undershoot situations, red. Undershoot situations can be very dangerous and are totally unnecessary.

Putting the target near either end of the field (upwind or downwind) is very unsafe.

You aim for "targets", I aim for safe landings.

Please take a poll (publicly or privately), and come back with a list of HG pilots here who think that it is okay to "put it on the numbers" as your "normal" landing scenario (landing as close as possible after just clearing the inbound fence).

I'm not the least bit interested in what a bunch of brainwashed, Frisbee targeting, glider drivers "think" is okay.

Otherwise, you may be wanting some good health-care insurance.

Someone subscribing to your flush half the runway down the toilet approach will be wanting some good health-care insurance eventually.

Jason Boehm - 2014/03/26 17:06:22 UTC

i want to see what a michael170 landing looks like

Here he is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srb9CagnMno


That was last Thursday. First and last time he ever clipped into a hang glider. So how the fuck does that have anything to do with the legitimacy of what he's saying?

Jason Boehm - 2014/03/26 17:13:01 UTC

Here is the LZ at horse, put a red dot where you think you should land there
its ~100 yards on each side, surrounded by 6' tall brush, downhill slightly if you are going west

Twenty yards in from the bush in the middle of the downwind edge. Maybe a bit less if I see a rattlesnake on my dot two seconds before touchdown.

So where's your dot gonna be?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Paul Hurless - 2014/03/26 20:26:48 UTC

Don't forget the big fence along the highway right-of-way if you overshoot.

OVERshoot?!?! Since when was OVERshooting ever a problem in hang gliding? Do you think we'd be training people to land on Frisbees in middles of LZs if OVERshooting could ever be an issue?

The only real issue with OVERshooting is you have to walk your glider back farther to the breakdown area. And that's just an INCONVENIENCE.

Just like the standard aerotow weak link. It increases the safety of the towing operation and never creates a serious problem...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

Just an inconvenience now and then.

Jason Boehm - 2014/03/26 20:35:06 UTC

YES
so how bout it Michael, put a red dot on there and tell us where you would try and land in that LZ

Hey Jack Show pigfucker... Red Howard's the big proponent of flushing half the usable runway down the toilet before one starts to think about landing. How come you're baiting the single hope for sanity in your shitty little discussion on your shitty little forum and giving Red a free pass?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Tom Galvin - 2014/03/26 21:37:02 UTC

michael170 - 2014/03/26 16:48:22 UTC

You're making false assumptions about how I approach the LZ.

What is the proper way to make an approach and landing in an LZ(open and/or restricted)?

If you would be kind enough to include appropriate strategies for coping with sink, turbulence, or switching winds on your final.

Whatever the circumstances are the fundamental rule for hang glider landings is to never put it down anywhere in the first half of the field. Having all that extra runway in front of you will give you a false sense of security - asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Tom Lyon - 2014/02/04 07:55:19 UTC

In learning to fly the sailplanes, I had it drilled into me that below two hundred feet, my options did not include anything more than maybe a very slight turn to avoid hitting an obstacle. Like thirty degrees from my heading maybe. A slight bank.

05-2704-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png

Brian Foster - 80099 - H4 - 2006/07/25 - Eric Hinrichs - AT FL ST CL FSL RLF TUR XC

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

gluesniffer - 2014/03/27 00:59:40 UTC
ner kal

Krizz9,

Way to post. You got some good advice up in hur.

And some astoundingly crappy advice. Hope you're able to sort it out. But if not... Gene pool.

That low turn could have killed you.

That wasn't a low turn - douchebag. That was a tip stall.

Do whatever it takes to never turn low again.

Fly straight into a taxiway sign if necessary. What's the worst that could happen?

Until you are a ripper.

How's he ever gonna get to be a ripper if he doesn't start working on low turns?

You say you were "going for a ride"? May that be your last. You are in the big time now boyeee. Your goal is to soar right?

Fuck no. It's to do no-steppers on Frisbees in the middles of primaries.

Get your game face on for each flight. You are actively hunting every goffer fart that hits your wing. That little shit pushing you around...

His tug driver?

...you have to try and wrangle. Until then you shouldn't fly in anything stronger. Make that sweet pulse your bitch.

If you're gonna fly hang gliders there are gonna be times when you'll be along for the ride...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFUkMBhXEg


'Specially...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

...if you tow. So make sure you do everything you can to make sure you don't get taken for a ride when and where you really can't afford to be.

"Going for a ride" is a dangerous game plan, especially when landing.

So always go upright and put your hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height for better pitch and roll control and ability to use your glider as a crumple zone, treat the first half of the LZ like a field of molten lava, and nail that Frisbee at any cost.

And if you don't think the Mother Nature / hang glider team is capable of making you its bitch whenever it feels like then just start asking around. Count on being the bitch every now and then and try not to take it too personally.

Pick the safest spots to land in your lz for all potential wind directions and memorize their approaches, and land there.

Yeah, we covered that already - the Frisbee. That's always the safest place to land because it's as far as possible from all the trees and fences.

When you nail the safest spots consistently...

...and after your arm is healed sufficiently, assuming there's not too much nerve damage...

...you can start landing more conveniently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guwuxyttd5w
Mike Barber - Part 4/4 (Final)

Mike Barber - 2007/12/25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guwuxyttd5w


Don't be afraid to walk. Land out in the open safe area. Almost everyone who crashes on landing is... for convenience. To land close - close to the road, close... They hit the wires, the trees. Whatever.

Even very good pilots. And it's almost always 'cause they didn't wanna walk. So pick larger, safe, opening areas... you know... open areas to land in. 'Cause if you don't you're gonna eventually get hurt. It WILL catch up with you.

Asshole.

Spot land for every flight for the rest of your flying days.

Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

...if you'd like to extend your flying days and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...enjoy them a lot more then fuck the spot and...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

...always do the safest landings possible.

Hey Chris... If you need a list of total fucking douchebags to avoid like plutonium I'd be more than happy to get you started.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

michael170 - 2014/03/27 02:45:50 UTC

Tom Galvin - 2014/03/26 21:37:02 UTC

What is the proper way to make an approach and landing in an LZ(open and/or restricted)?

The proper way? That's singular right, Tom?

What's it matter? It's a bullshit question from a bullshit Jack Show asshole. If he'd had anything useful to contribute to the discussion he'd have contributed it already - and it would've included blasting red and the idiot crap he's spewing.

Here's one then:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=348202#348202

05-2704-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


Yeah? So how's that gonna work in an eighty mile per hour microburst? Or what if the first half of the LZ suddenly fills up with obstacles?

If you would be kind enough to include appropriate strategies for coping with sink...

1. I'm landing, thus I'm not too concerned about sink.

What if it's so severe that it puts the Frisbee out of range?

...turbulence...

2. Fly fast, coordinate roll and pitch inputs.

What if you're in a rotor generated by an eighty mile per hour microburst?

...or switching winds on your final.

3. If there is an upwind obstacle (such as the bush at Funston) I'll certainly be making adjustments on final so as not to get into the rotor.

Wouldn't landing in a rotor increase the risk and thus your attraction to the sport?

Nic Welbourn - 2014/03/27 05:26:32 UTC

I'm landing, thus I'm not too concerned about sink.

Interesting strategy. Good luck with that

Go fuck yourself, Nicos.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Brian Scharp - 2014/03/27 14:41:54 UTC

michael170 - 2014/03/27 02:45:50 UTC

If there is an upwind obstacle (such as the bush at Funston) I'll certainly be making adjustments on final so as not to get into the rotor.

Why wait until you're on final? If there's an upwind obstacle that would cause a rotor, set up an approach that would have the turn on to final putting you in a position that would require the least amount of adjustment. By planning an approach and making foreseeable adjustments during that approach, the final has more of a chance of being straight, with wings level.

Yeah, you're right, and I have no doubt whatsoever that michael170 totally agrees with you and flies that way - as does EVERYONE. But he's responding to a bullshit question posed by a mainstream Jack Show asshole whose motivation is ANYTHING BUT getting people on the right page.

Yeah, once you've straightened out on nice safe fast low final it's not a great idea and there aren't a lot of great reasons to roll to a different heading. And for thus incidents arising from such are pretty much nonexistent and thus not really worth discussing. Similarly we don't really need to be discussing shit like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ


'cause just about all of us were able to do way better than that on our first efforts on training hills or scooter tows and anyone who thinks there's anything to be learned there is in serious need of a rating revocation.

But you've got a bunch of total fucking assholes on this thread giving totally insane advice like:

- make sure you always have your hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height for the most critical phase of your flight

- prioritize stomping on the Frisbee in the middle of the field for every flight of your career

- never do a heading change more radical thirty degrees below two hundred feet

- always go onto final way high and way back

- anyone who ever considers landing anywhere on the first half of the runway is an undershoot accident inevitably doomed to happen

- if you can consistently nail the Frisbee in the middle of the Lockout Mountain Flight Park LZ no fuckin' way you won't be able to handle a tight XC bailout field in heavy turbulence

which commonly crashes and occasionally kills people. Don't you have anything better to nit pick about? Or is just the case that you don't feel comfortable calling some of these old established Jack Show icons out on this lunatic bullshit?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doha! My worst landing ever, caught on tape

Erik Delf - 2014/03/27 16:49:02 UTC

Step 1: Get upwind

Totally agree - assuming you have the luxury.

One thing that helps me is to just get myself to the upwind end of the field, and maybe off to the side a bit, while I still have some altitude. Then just hang out there, losing altitude, looking at the field, noting obstacles, watching the wind indicators, etc.

Pretty good description of what Brian Foster does in the video michael170 cites as a model, isn't it?

This is also the time to get ready, like unzipping, rocking upright, getting my drogue ready, whatever.

How often do you NEED to unzip, rock upright, get your drag chute ready?

The upwind end of the landing field is a good place to be while you mentally plan out your approach: entry leg - downwind leg - base leg - final leg. But more than that, it gives you a place to start. In a stressful situation, structure helps.

How much of that stress is the sole consequence of shooting for a foot landing?

Knowing where to start, having a first step, like positioning yourself at the upwind end of the landing field while you still have altitude, helps reduce the stress.

So does landing like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y9ylIiFZ6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5222/13952337472_43b71cf6a2_o.png

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5281/13975491923_4587b30d6d_o.png

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

Once you get good at it, or on less stressful landings, it becomes second nature to just get a little upwind of a spot and then do a quick downwind leg and turn into the wind to land.

1. Like Brian Foster or...

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


...Dave Seib?

2. Care to specify the point at which you whip around from downwind to final?

3. Doesn't sound to me like your all that concerned with the three gates others seem so obsessed with hitting during their approaches. I'm surprised you're still alive.

Only thing I would add is turn onto final early enough so you're not turning close to the ground.

Why would you add that?

- Can you cite a single example of a glider that crashed because he turned onto final too close to the ground? Or are you just spewing this crap out because it's socially mandated and/or it makes you appear safe and responsible?

- Do you think that:
-- people who are shooting DBFs into tightish fields don't know enough to turn high and/or fast enough to not crash the last turn?
-- you telling someone too clueless to turn high and/or fast enough to not crash the last turn is gonna make any difference?

- I think that everyone who approaches the way you describe - going from downwind to final in one fast, smooth, coordinated 180 and pretty much skipping base - is doing it about as low as possible...

05-2704-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


...thus minimizing the potential for complications and surprises.

Unless it's really windy. Then forget all that and do figure 8s at the downwind end of the field. My 2 cents.

If it's REALLY windy you can parachute straight down - or back up to your target.

Otherwise... Figure 8s are BORING. Go ahead and do a DBF. It's cool having all that groundspeed on downwind and if you err on the:
- high side so fuckin' what?
- low side just turn into the field early.
Either way you're not gonna get in overshoot trouble in a high wind.

So what were your opinions on accuracy and Frisbees in the middles of fields? Pretty safe bet you think they're crap because:
- you make no mention of these issues
- people who approach competently as you describe don't give flying fucks about accuracy and Frisbees.