Quest Air 2018 - state of the art AT

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Quest Air 2018 - state of the art AT

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Just stumbled upon this astonishing Jeff Bohl Quest prequel doing some housekeeping in my:

http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101
CHGA AT Weak Link War

archive...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Tad Eareckson - 2008/12/05 20:57:47 UTC

http://www.sonomawings.com/archive/fl2003/florida.htm
Vince Endter - 2003/04/12

There were pilots constantly sinking out and landing back at Quest. I landed and got in line again. The third time I was behind a trike that seemed very under-powered or we were in constant sink. They took me over to the west above a swamp, lake and trees. There was nowhere to land if the weak link broke. I looked at my altimeter and I was at 230'. I had set it for 130 before takeoff. You do the math. We continued to fly over unlandable terrain for a couple of minutes before we started any type of climb.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC

BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot.
Maybe. But you can't shoot the guy if you have alligators on both your arms. 0.75 or 1.40?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47939
The "how" of loosing Jeff
Christopher LeFay - 2016/05/22 18:21:11 UTC

The staging on the day of the crash was more or less the same as the last day of Part 1 of the Open: East to West. Attached is an Airtribune screen shot showing Jeff's track; with the green triangle on the right about where the tow was started from. As I recall, the wind speed was forecast for 5-15 mph; images from that day show flags standing out and whipping. On that aforementioned last day of the previous comp, many tugs flew West toward the slot, banking 45-90 to the North before reaching the tree line, around tree top height. Amongst the many unknowns to me are how many pilots were towed up before Jeff and the path they took on the day of the crash.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/26578855104_69f4705474_o.jpg
Image
West wind, Runway 27, underpowered tug, tug flight plan to bank hard to starboard/north to avoid having to use / get trapped in the extension.

Image
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7400/26585605333_8144a67215_o.png
Image

You DELIBERATELY send people up on total crap equipment then further compromise your safety margins putting lotsa gliders up on a runway that wouldn't be considered suitable for routine launches at a big commercial operation if it were all you had... Just rolling dice hoping nothing goes the slightest bit wrong.

Lotsa similarity here to the 2014/06/02 Ridgely ECC John Claytor - also being controlled by Davis. That would've NEVER happened on a recreational flying weekend. Jeff's might have but that didn't look like a great day to go flying without some extra incentive.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Quest Air 2018 - state of the art AT

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.kitestrings.org/post12090.html#p12090

Everything Davis Dead-On Straub (also Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt) ever had to say about the 2005/05/29 Holly Korzilius near negligent homicide at Blue Sky:

http://ozreport.com/9.132
Blue Sky
Davis Straub - 2005/06/21

There was an aerotow accident here a few weeks ago, that hurt an experienced female pilot. I hope to publish the facts about that accident as soon as I have the accident report (which was written up by Steve and immediately sent to the USHGA). Steve has provided me with all the details and there is a lot that can be learned from the eight second accident, and I'm looking to spread those lessons fare and wide. Steve is not shy in the least talking about it. He wants to help instruct everyone.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Davis Straub - 2005/06/23 02:00 UTC

On Memorial day weekend, a pilot made a few mistakes which ended up hurting her.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/hollyaccidentreport.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/11449477316_22da4aa82f_o.jpg
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.

The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.

First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .

Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.

These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.
A few weeks ago there was a bad accident here at Blue Sky involving an experienced (three years) aerotow pilot who made a number of mistakes. You can read about her accident in the accident report above, which Steve Wendt, the owner of Blue Sky immediately wrote up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA.

I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.

First, the pilot couldn't find the portion of her V-bridle that attached to her keel and decided to tow off her shoulders, something that she had no experience with.

Second, she flew her more advanced glider when Steve felt that she would have normally flown her less advanced glider after not flying a lot lately and in the middle of the day.

Fourth, she pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart. With no experience towing off her shoulders she didn't have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle.

Third, she didn't have a weaklink on the shoulder portion of her bridle, only on the portion that went to the keel, so she flew with didn't have a weaklink.

Fifth, with her arms straight back she had much less control over the glider.

Sixth, she began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard.

Seventh, she didn't release immediately once she started to PIO trying to "save the tow," even though she was out of control, because she had experience successfully towing and didn't understand how much trouble she was in, being out of control so low and so soon off the cart.

Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, but when she was endangering the tug pilot. The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.
There was an aerotow accident here a few weeks ago, that hurt an experienced female pilot.
An EXPERIENCED female pilot. Thanks.
I hope to publish the facts about that accident as soon as I have the accident report (which was written up by Steve and immediately sent to the USHGA).
Oh.

- So the accident report (which was written up by Steve and immediately sent to the USHGA) either doesn't include any facts about the accident or the facts about the accident won't be published by u$hPa.

- And you HOPE to publish the facts about the accident but that may not be a realistic goal - given the circumstances.

- Why would Steve NOT *IMMEDIATELY* send the accident report to u$hPa after writing in up? Did it need to age properly in the envelope prior to shipping? Was he waiting to see if his memories of the incident would improve within the next week or two? Did he need to make a lot of phone calls to make sure the accounts of all the other involved parties and witnesses matched his account? Why tell us that he IMMEDIATELY sent the report? What reasons would we have to think otherwise?
Steve has provided me with all the details...
- The DETAILS not worthy of inclusion in the report he sent to u$hPa. The really boring stuff that nobody but you would have the least interest in seeing.

- Well aren't you SPECIAL. So why wouldn't he just put everything up on his website in his incidents section? Wouldn't doing so minimize the odds of a rerun at Blue Sky or some other top notch AT operation?
...and there is a lot that can be learned from the eight second accident...
- That eight second accident was DECADES in the making. And Steve was at the heart of a lot of it.
- What? the excellent book, Towing Aloft by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, didn't cover everything already?
...and I'm looking to spread those lessons fare and wide.
- Yeah, you're really great at spreading lessons fare and wide. Really enriches the soil for the upcoming growing season. Where would the sport be without quality individuals such as yourself.

- Just like you were looking to spread all those lessons from 2016/05/21 Jeff Bohl at Quest Air fare and wide.
Steve is not shy in the least talking about it.
- Not in the least! Why should he be? He's a living treasure in the hang gliding universe. Hard to get him to shut up in discussions like this in fact.

- Writing about it, putting it in print on line, engaging in forum discussions... Not so much though. So it sure is a good thing he's not shy in the least talking about it in a private discussion with Davis Straub.
He wants to help instruct everyone.
GREAT! So now ALL of us have a shot at advancing our careers to the points Holly Korzilius and Bill Priday did! How lucky we are to have an individual like Steve in the game.
On Memorial day weekend, a pilot made a few mistakes which ended up hurting her.
What a jerk. Everybody else at the fly-in was doing everything flawlessly by the book and she couldn't settle for just ONE mistake. She had to make a FEW and ruin it for everyone before they'd even started any real flying.
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/hollyaccidentreport.jpg

A few weeks ago there was a bad accident here at Blue Sky involving an experienced (three years) aerotow pilot who made a number of mistakes.
Oh. She was EXPERIENCED (three years). Way overqualified to be flying pro toad.
You can read about her accident in the accident report above, which Steve Wendt, the owner of Blue Sky immediately wrote up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA.
Yep, hard to beat an accident report which has been IMMEDIATELY written up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA. Post Zack Marzec it took Paul Tjaden five days to write up the accident report and post it on Facebook where everybody could see it. And that one totally sucked compared to Steve's. They were never even really sure what actually happened and why.
I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.
Why did you need to speak to him "AT LENGTH"? The Report's only one typed page long and the detail is nothing short of exhausting.
First, the pilot couldn't find the portion of her V-bridle that attached to her keel and decided to tow off her shoulders, something that she had no experience with.
Name somebody who HAS had experience going pro toad for the first time. Is this something they teach on tandem rides? Steve says:
This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.
so she WOULD have been towing off her shoulders with no experience anyway. And I'm wondering what he would've told her for a different outcome? Don't oscillate? She didn't know that already from three years of two point experience?
Second, she flew her more advanced glider when Steve felt that she would have normally flown her less advanced glider after not flying a lot lately and in the middle of the day.
Do we fly pro toad on LESS advanced gliders to prep for the hotter stuff? Wills Wing:
Master's Tips:
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Rob Kells - 2005/02

Towing only from the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow." The Sport 2, U2 and Talon may be "Pro towed" without a top release; however this method is not as easy as using a two-point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the basetube to be positioned much farther back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are more difficult to correct.
...suggests otherwise.
Fourth, she pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart. With no experience towing off her shoulders she didn't have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle.
- Yeah, if she had just had experience with something she was doing for the first time... What an idiot.

- Here's a couple thoughts...

-- Send her up properly trimmed two point. At a thousand feet have the tug maintain full climbing power and lower the nose to level flight. Then she would have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle.

-- Incrementally move the trim point back aft on the keel and down the suspension.

NOBODY DOES THIS. But why would we use legitimate training techniques to qualify pilots for a totally ILLEGITIMATE lethal towing mode? Do we teach high school and college students how to use crystal meth responsibly and in moderation?
Third, she didn't have a weaklink on the shoulder portion of her bridle, only on the portion that went to the keel, so she flew with didn't have a weaklink.
Shit.

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ
Quest Air Hang Gliding

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
If only she'd had a weak link. And, failing that, if only the tug had had a weak link. And, failing that, if only the tug pilot had released her before things got too insane.
Fifth, with her arms straight back she had much less control over the glider.
But if she'd had experience towing off her shoulders she'd have had exactly the same control over the glider. Probably more, now that I think about it.
Sixth, she began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard.
But if she'd had experience towing off her shoulders she wouldn't have been pulled in so hard and wouldn't have begun to PIO immediately. It would've probably been at least another five or ten seconds before she'd have begun to PIO.
Seventh, she didn't release immediately once she started to PIO trying to "save the tow," even though she was out of control, because she had experience successfully towing and didn't understand how much trouble she was in, being out of control so low and so soon off the cart.

Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, but when she was endangering the tug pilot. The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.
Holly... Fuck you and the horse you rode in on for not calling these scummy total douchebags on this shit. Both Steve and Davis are jointly and equally responsible for everything that's been published at this point.

Note the total absence of reference to VG setting. And how since 2020/09/19-21 pro toad incidents have been about NOTHING OTHER than VG setting. (Holly's glider is (was) a Litesport - same as Oliver's.)
Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed.
Yeah? Is another one of those many things that for pro toad gliders the VG needs to be set "appropriately"? If so then how come neither of you assholes references the issue in your incredibly thorough reporting?

I flew a demo U2 160 off of one of those Manquin carts 2004/09/20. I pulled the Quallaby crap with which Rob had it set up. If there had been anything about VG on a cart checklist I'd have remembered it. I probably just pulled on full VG 'cause that's all my HPAT allowed if you were gonna do any and I'm pretty sure Rob said nothing on the issue. The tow was a total non event.
Post Reply