instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Lookout Mountain Flight Park - 2012/10/14

LMFP wrote the official flight training manual of the US Hang Gliding Association.

By Peter Cheney. Now in its 3rd edition.

The Official USHPA training manual. Covers all basics, excellent easy-to-follow illustrations, plus "As the Pro Flies" tips. Over 250 pages.

Whether you're a student hang glider pilot or someone who just wants to learn more about this incredible way to fly, Hang Gliding for Beginner Pilots is a must read. Developed with the assistance of the top pros in the sport, this is the book that has helped thousands make their flying dreams come true - and set a new standard in its field. As one well known pilot put it: "This is the best thing out there."

Features

Developed with the assistance of the top pros in the sport, Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots is the official traning manual of the USHPA. Easy to read, excellent diagrams, and is the ideal hang gliding training manual.
By Peter Cheney.
As far as I can tell, a professional writer Hang Four nobody from Toronto - Mike Robertson's sphere of influence.
The Official USHPA training manual.
So how come I can find no reference to it on the Official USHPA website?
Developed with the assistance of the top pros in the sport...
Bo Hagewood?
...this is the book that has helped thousands make their flying dreams come true...
Since you first published it in 1990, how many thousands has it helped crash, injure, cripple, and kill?
...and set a new standard in its field.
Are you sure? I thought Towing Aloft would've been a pretty tough low mark to beat.
As one well known pilot put it: "This is the best thing out there."
WOW!!! A well known PILOT said: "This is the best thing out there." How much for ten copies?
Reminds me a lot of the endorsement for your new GT aerotow release from an also anonymous longtime aerotow pilot:
A recent testimonial from a long time aerotow pilot...

I think that, for now at least, my search is over. Not only has your new release been elegantly designed, it also works as advertised! Thanks for making this improved design available to us tow heads.
And here's how you "advertise" it in the owner's manual - available only after the con victim has purchased it:
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
Fuck you, Matt - along with USHGA, Mike Robertson, Peter Cheney, the top pros who helped you perpetrate this crap, and the well known "pilot" who said: "This is the best thing out there."
Steve Davy
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Steve Davy »

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

Malcolm Jones on aerotowing:
Lockouts won't happen if the glider pilot uses anticipation and aggressive control inputs to keep the wheels of the tug on the horizon.
Malcolm Jones operates Wallaby Ranch, a popular Florida aerotowing operation.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Jonathan Boarini - 2012/10/16 23:34:21 UTC
Miami

I was wondering which is safer. Having 2 releases gives you a backup but eliminates the weak link, or am I wrong? I currently pro tow with 1 release plus a weak link.
-
H4
U2 145
Where to fuckin' begin...

There's only ONE reason you're asking that (lunatic) question. You're scared and you wanna increase your odds of survival on an aerotow launch.

"Pro towing" is not safe - period. You're not interested in doing the job right so you're trying to do it wrong as optimally as possible.

By "barrel release" you mean the bent pin crap that idiot fucking Bobby Bailey slapped together twenty-two years ago that all the total morons who infest this sport have been slavishly duplicating ever since.

- There's no fuckin' way you're gonna be able to make it work when the shit's really hitting the fan fast enough and/or while maintaining any kind of control over the glider to give you any reasonable chance of survival.

- Bobby never considered anything about the geometry of the human hand when he "designed" it so the grip you can get on it and force you can apply to it are worth shit.

- IT HAS NO MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE.

What's the point in having an identical piece of shit "release" as a BACKUP?

- When the shit really hits the fan down low people's reaction times are major issues and they're somewhat fortunate if Mother Nature gives them enough of a break to blow a primary in time to do them any good.

- There is ZERO excuse for going up with a release that has ANY POSSIBILITY of failing. They're not that hard to engineer and the failure modes of the "releases" perpetrated on the public by the pigfuckers from the Southeastern US are well known and obvious.

- If a SINGLE copy of a "design" EVER fails, you ground the design - worldwide - and engineer something that won't.

- You DO NOT address the issue by "backing it up" with some other piece of shit - ESPECIALLY an identical piece of shit.

- A two point release REQUIRES a secondary for the sole reason that - despite the declarations of assholes like Diver Bob - there is ALWAYS a possibility of a bridle wrap 'cause a two pointer needs to be long enough to run from the pilot, out to the tow ring, and back to the general vicinity of the hang point. And thus it can tie itself to the tow ring.

- You can EASILY make a one point bridle so short and fat that it's incapable of wrapping:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/
Image

but you stupid motherfuckers refuse to do it.

How much glue do you hafta sniff as a thirteen year old to fry the parts of your brain that allow you to understand that it's within the realm of possibility to have barrel releases AND weak links on EACH shoulder?

What total fucking asshole taught you that every time you add a barrel release you've gotta subtract a weak link?

By weak link there is no doubt whatsoever that you mean a loop of 130 pound Greenspot - which is a thousand times more dangerous that no weak link at all. You have no fuckin' clue what a weak link is and what its strength should be, so - until you do - don't use one.

There is no doubt whatsoever you're engaging a cheaply and poorly constructed overlength bridle with a bent pin release on one shoulder and have a loop of 130 pound Greenspot between the bridle and your other shoulder.

- You release, the bridle wraps. What laws of physics guarantee that the weak link will blow and that the 130 pounds of tow tension it allows isn't enough to lock you out and kill you?

- The weak link blows and the bridle wraps. What's limiting the load going to that piece of shit bent pin barrel and how much load can it take before it jams?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Mike Bomstad - 2012/10/17 00:15:18 UTC
Spokane

You want a weak link regardless of # of releases.
WHY does he want A weak link?

Is there any relationship between weak link strength and either the flying weight or maximum certified operating weight of the glider?

Or do you just use a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on one end of a one or two point bridle 'cause everybody else does, it's a proven system that works, and it's got a huge track record?

Does any weak link blow still fix whatever's going on back there? Or might there be situations in which:
- you're gonna die if the goddam thing disintegrates?
- the PILOT can't afford to wait around to find out if and when the fishing line is gonna start doing his job for him?
Jonathan Boarini - 2012/10/17 00:26:50 UTC

Yeah, that makes total sense...
No. It doesn't.

- Nobody's talking about weak link strengths.

- You NEED to have all releases protected by weak links at all times. Otherwise the probability of having a weak link anywhere in the system when you actually and really need one is a dice roll.
I would never fly without one.
That's really super. The weak link being the focal point of a safe towing system that makes you a really safe, responsible pilot.

Just as long as you've got that piece of fishing line in the system you'll never hafta worry about situations in which you'll need:
- to have all the speed the glider can deliver but the top third of the range will be literally out of reach when you've got the bar stuffed
- to maintain all the control money can buy while you're releasing
- a release that doesn't start locking up at about 150 pounds
- three hundred pounds of towline tension to keep your sorry ass alive
I'll have to see how different people have it set up!
Hard to go wrong with that approach. Don't worry about regulations, engineering standards, bench testing, math, logic, common sense... Don't read the threads, look at the photos, and figure out who does and doesn't have his shit together and has bothered to do the job right. Just walk down the flight line and see what all the 130 pound Greenspot pin benders are doing.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Patrick Halfhill - 2012/10/17 00:57:57 UTC
Pittsburgh

most flight parks require a secondary release.
Damn near all hang glider jockeys require backup loops.

Damn near all flight parks require:
- 130 pound Greenspot lockout protectors
- bent pin backup releases
- hook knife emergency releases
- their solo students to foot land while their tandem instructors are doing nothing but wheel landings
- anybody with any concern for safety to shut the fuck up or forget about ever aerotowing again

No flight parks require:
- people to fly with wheels
- glider end weak links which comply with FAA minimum regulations
- Dragonflies to tow with weak links stronger that most midrange glider weak links
- releases which come anywhere close to the standards specified in the USHGA SOPs
- the crap that Matt sells to be melted down and recast into something that functions for something
- tug drivers to acknowledge that there's any danger to a glider when they make good decisions in the interest of its safety
therefore you need 2 barrels.
Yeah, don't ya just love it when the flight parks piss all over whatever USHGA and FAA regulations they feel like and start making up insane rules of their own so they can sell people more cheap crap at ripoff prices?

And when they...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1184
aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC

It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.

Appalling.
...gain control of USHGA and the Towing Committee there's virtually no limit to what they can accomplish.
And of course a winklink too.
OF COURSE.

Fuck you, Pat. If you don't have the brains and/or balls to stick in a conversation long enough to gain a fuckin' clue - and you don't - then stay the hell out of tow discussions altogether.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Davis Straub - 2012/10/17 01:31:15 UTC
Boise, Idaho

A barrel release plus a weaklink at Quest Air and the Florida Ridge and every where else I have been.
Bent pin and 130 pound Greenspot. Isn't the standardization that comes with a global inbred mutual masturbation society just wonderful!
Warnarr
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Warnarr »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Casey Cox - 2012/10/17 11:42:18 UTC
Eastern North Carolina

I have two barrel releases and the weak link is on the opposite side that I release from. That way the weak link does not get weakened by sliding over the pin.

I don't think two barrel releases are necessary because the barrel is so simple that I can not imagine having a failure like other releases. But, in that instant when you feel out of control and you rather release with the opposite hand. Image
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Yeah. I'm currently working on dealing with that one. Stay tuned.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Craig Hassan - 2012/10/17 11:20:57 UTC
Ohio

For "pro tow" I use my 2 barrels and a weak link.
Who gives a rat's ass what you use, Craig? I never saw you give any kind of sane response to Zack in the weak link discussion in August. Deal with that before you continue presenting yourself as a model.
I need them to scooter tow locally, but I don't have to change anything other than the weak link between AT and scooter tow.
Why?

- Do aero and scooter tows have different lockout thresholds? Can you tell us how many pounds it takes to lock a glider out in each of the two flavors?

- Do gliders break at different loads depending on what's at the other end of the string?
I also like to be able to jettison the bridle should it become snagged or wrapped.
Matt Taber - 1990

A hook knife is a razor-sharp cutting tool that can slash through lines in an instant. You should never tow without one - in an emergency, you can use it to cut the tow-line or bridle. The hook knife must be mounted on your harness so that you can reach it quickly and easily.
- Why don't you just mount a hook knife on your harness where you can reach it quickly and easily? In an emergency you can use it to slash through the towline or bridle in an instant.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- Paul doesn't seem to be able to access even one bent pin barrel when the shit hits the fan. But I have every confidence that a real ace such as yourself will be able to blow two before - one way or another - the lockout's over.
I've never had it happen, but I have seen it a couple times.
- And let's not give a moment's thought to how to engineer the system to make the wrap impossible. Let's instead have moronic discussions about how to handle a wrap.

- If you guys weren't all the total douchebags you are and were capable of so much as grasping the concept of using your Sacred Standard Aerotow Weak Links on BOTH ends of the bridle, a wrap would be a self correcting problem in virtually all incidents.

- And even if you used strengths triple what you are now you'd be one hundred percent guaranteed to blow a wrapped bridle after a weak link blow (which you'd never have anyway).
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Casey Cox - 2012/10/17 11:42:18 UTC

I have two barrel releases and the weak link is on the opposite side that I release from.
What side do you release from? Since you're feeling lucky enough to eschew both two point towing and bite controlled release options wouldn't it be a good idea to alternate sides in practice so you'll be better able to pick your wingover direction as circumstances dictate?
That way the weak link does not get weakened by sliding over the pin.
- Have you ever documented that the weak link gets weakened by sliding over the pin? Or are you just assuming this is an issue...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Right. It just hammers away at it. A Spectra bridle typically has a relatively small diameter and thus applies a type of garroting action on the weak link, compared to a larger diameter polypro bridle, which spreads the pressures over a larger area of the weak link. Also, the shorter the V-bridle, the more stress is applied to the weak link due to the resultant vector of force. The worst performance comes from a relatively short Spectra or thin pro-tow bridle, especially when the weak link is attached directly onto the thin curved pin of the secondary release, which imparts high loads over a very small area of the weak link.
...the way Dr. Trisa Tilletti assumes all kinds of total bullshit about weak link strength, performance, and purpose without ever bothering to test, observe, read, or think?

When I test loop weak links I find that they virtually always blow at the point at which one of the two strands exits the bridle. And when I look around at the ground in the vicinity of the launch line that's the pattern I see on the blown and discarded loops of 130 pound Greenspot. And most of those have been used with spinnaker shackles which DO abrade the weak link upon actuation.

- Wouldn't weakening the fishing line just further increase the safety of the towing operation?

- Oh...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle. It is a de facto standard, because it works for most pilots and gliders and is usually near the USHPA recommendation of a nominal 1G weak link for most pilots.
I forgot. It's the perfect weak link for all solo two and one point gliders for about ten tows. Then you're supposed to replace it so that you remain in a state of Industry Standard perfection.
I don't think two barrel releases are necessary because the barrel is so simple that I can not imagine having a failure like other releases.
Nah. It's really hard to imagine any other release failing quite like...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...the Bailey bent pin barrel does.

Listen dude...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed.

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.
When a release:
- welds itself shut before the weak link blows
- can't be instantly actuated under two Gs worth of towline tension
- is configured such that a subsequent bridle wrap leaves you still connected to the tug
- requires the slightest compromise of control upon actuation
- can't be actuated to abort a tow at any phase of the process in reaction time plus 0.1 seconds
it's failed. Crap like that isn't tolerated in REAL aviation and there's no excuse whatsoever for tolerating it in hang gliding.
But, in that instant when you feel out of control and you rather release with the opposite hand.
Right Casey...

- When you're under tow you can only FEEL out of control. It's not like when you're in free flight and get hit by something and you can actually BE out of control.

- And, of course, it doesn't really matter which hand you use or if you use a hand. This is all about feelings and preferences.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal
Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.
Feelings, preferences, natural inclinations... Don't worry about anything, whatever you do or whatever happens everything will turn out fine.

And as long as you're using self delusion as a survival strategy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1uyn_zTlo

7-14522
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5517/14036301121_17849a6a04_o.png
Image

...you might as well keep on rolling dice with your kid as well.
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