Skyting demolition

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/25 01:40:04 UTC

Mike Lake - 2014/08/25 01:29:43 UTC

The weak-link did not prevent this lockout.

Weaklinks don't prevent lockouts, as we have discussed numerous times.

Then...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...how 'bout tell us what the fuck they're supposed to be doing, precisely what strength we should be using to get them to do it, and presenting some actual data that indicates that they're doing it consistently enough to make the occasionally fatal inconveniences they cause worth the trade-off.

Jim Steel - 2014/08/25 02:00:47 UTC

Because...lockouts don't necessarily produce enough force.

Duh. That's how come you often need to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

...pitch out abruptly to get them to work properly.

Segway: we always have/had pilots test weak link properties by forcing the issue i.e. pushing out hard to force a breakage to experience the effect(s).

Great! So where's all this valuable test pilot data we can use to make predictions and maybe finally understand what went wrong with Zack Marzec's flight?

Also good to practice release & early-release to see what happens.

Yeah...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

Nice and high and in smooth air - just in case what damn near always happens happens.

I'm preaching to the choir.

You're preaching to a total shithead colony.

michael170 - 2014/08/25 02:14:43 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/08/25 01:40:04 UTC

Weaklinks don't prevent lockouts, as we have discussed numerous times.

Sure they do. Just read the Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association, Published by idiot Matt Taber:

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

Flight Tip:

One of the biggest dangers in towing is the lock-out. In a lock-out, the tension of the line overpowers the pilot's control authority, and the glider rolls hard to one side. If the pilot fails to correct, the glider may dive and roll to the ground.

Lockouts usually happen when a pilot allows the glider to roll too far off heading, so that the tow line is pulling the glider at a sharp angle.

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

if you don't believe me.

2014/08/25 02:52:28 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless

Keep it up Paul. Never too much documentation of what a total asshole you are.

Jim Steel - 2014/08/25 02:54:46 UTC

Yeah. Exhibit A: the video featured in the first posting on this thread

Bullshit. That wasn't a lockout. If it had been a lockout the weak link would've broken. That's the definition of a lockout - anything that breaks any weak link.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Lake - 2014/08/25 07:41:19 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/08/25 01:40:04 UTC

Weaklinks don't prevent lockouts, as we have discussed numerous times.

I know, you know, but some people still preach otherwise however many times the topic has been discussed.

Davis doesn't know. That's why he tries to make all of his statements on weak links as ambiguous as possible. But being a career pathological liar has its occasional downsides...

Davis Straub - 2014/08/24 03:07:17 UTC

Perhaps the pilot should go here instead:
http://www.blueskyhg.com/

So let's go to:

http://www.blueskyhg.com/
BlueSky Virginia Hang Gliding

And see what Steve's selling:

http://www.blueskyhg.com/products.aspx?Prod=5&Manu=20
Accessories - Miscellaneous

And the very first thing we see is:

Hang Gliding Books

We stock a variety of the most popular text books about the sports of Hang Gliding and Paragliding, from beginner manuals through Advanced skills, towing and weather.

And the accompanying photo is:



And the very first book we see, the one on the top of the stack, is:

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

Flight Tip:

One of the biggest dangers in towing is the lock-out. In a lock-out, the tension of the line overpowers the pilot's control authority, and the glider rolls hard to one side. If the pilot fails to correct, the glider may dive and roll to the ground.

Lockouts usually happen when a pilot allows the glider to roll too far off heading, so that the tow line is pulling the glider at a sharp angle.

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

That is totally unambiguous. He's selling it with no disclaimer whatsoever, he's endorsing it. And that bald faced LIE has been the fundamental cause of death of damn near everyone in the course of the past third of a century who's died following a critical control situation on tow with a release within easy reach.

And going down to the next/second/last level in the stack and moving from our left to right the next book we see is:

Performance Flying
Dennis Pagen - 1993/04

-
With modern methods employing weak links and pressure gauges this form of towing can be safe and provide the fastest turnaround.
-
Once a lockout proceeds to a certain point a pilot can no longer correct for it and must relieve tow tension to escape either by releasing, having the vehicle freewheel the winch, back up, or doing both of these actions at the same time or experience a weak link break.
-
A weak link is perhaps the most important safety device in the whole operation. It is intended to limit the ultimate forces in a towing situation and obviously must be very reliable.
-
Safety Weak Links

Weak links are small in size but humongous in importance. They are the fail-safe of a towing system. A weak link should be incorporated in all towing systems at the pilot end of the towline and at the tow vehicle end as well where appropriate (air-to-air and static line).
-
If you find yourself breaking weak links repeatedly, try using lighter tow forces initially. Remember, the glider and reel have inertia that is lowered once they start moving. Also keep in mind that it is better to break weak links than bones. In general, a little experimentation lets you find a system that provides the safety margin your life depends on, but doesn't break needlessly.
-
A weak link and release system must be incorporated at both ends of the towline. The weak link at the pilot's end should break at 75 to 80% of the combined pilot and glider weight (about 185 to 200 lbs for a 250 pound flying ensemble). The lighter weak link is used because the towline is not pulling down on the glider or suspending much weight.
-
As with all towing, when matters get out of hand clear of the terrain you should release. If weak links fail to operate or you are entering a lockout get off the line before you cause severe consequences to yourself and the tug pilot.
-
With new towing methods, i.e. center-of-mass towing and all the Skyting Criteria, static line towing incorporating a pressure gauge in the line, weak links and radio communications can be reasonably safe.
-
One big problem is the difficulty of regulating tow pressures in gusts. This is what caused lockouts in the past. The proper use of weak links reduces this problem.
-

This is totally fucking obviously *ALL* about scamming the read/student/flyer into thinking of the Davis Link as a lockout preventer.

And let's take a look at one of Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's students/towees:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Avolare - 2010/09/03 23:18:22 UTC
North Carolina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilD-0Mw_9qg


The weak link should break with a lockout.

18-3003


And let's take a look at some traffic from the Holly Korzilius whitewash:

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.

These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

Davis Straub - 2005/06/23 02:00 UTC

I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.

Third, she didn't have a weaklink on the shoulder portion of her bridle, only on the portion that went to the keel, so she flew with didn't have a weaklink.

Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, but when she was endangering the tug pilot. The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.

Don't try to tell me that you two-faced motherfuckers haven't been selling and forcing the Davis Link as a lockout preventer to your brain damaged constituents nonstop throughout the durations of your infestations into the sport, aren't doing it now, and won't continue to do it until you're silenced by being totally humiliated by the Dark Lord of Trolls and His Minions and/or hopefully being fatally inconvenienced by the focal point of your safe towing system - the way Zack Marzec was last year.

You pieces of shit have been controlling The Industry for decades. We don't even need to listen to your obfuscatory bullshit to see what you're doing. All we've gotta do is watch and listen to your products.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Badley - 2014/08/25 14:58:02 UTC

If you understand the physics of the lock-out, you see that it is the 'relief' of force in the direction of the tow line. Rather than building up a resistive tension (which WOULD break a weaklink) the lock-out forces accelerate a glider in a direction that will 'shorten' the tow length (or reduce the tension) The faster the glider accelerates the 'less' force there is on the rope. That is WHY a lockout condition will not break weak-links.

Really? So THESE gliders:

128-043823
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/14074326582_4370ac1097_o.png

12-10013

15-14514
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3882/14556435534_ea6bf5a14b_o.png

11-1814

41-05323
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/11414145954_b4e394b54a_o.png


aren't breaking weak links. So how do you explain the fact that the two planes continue pointing in substantially different directions and immediately start substantially increasing their separation distances?

So you're saying that in a lockout the towline tension is actually going DOWN so you're actually much more likely to break a weak link when you're perfectly lined up.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Coincidence bullshit. Mystery solved. Shouldn't have been doubling up the Quest Links and risking killing Russell with every tow, should've just flown the gliders to the left or right of the Cone of Safety. Less inconvenience, higher tows, less danger to the tug. Win/Win/Win.

Once IN a lockout position, the pilot has LITTLE ability to change that force direction or stop the acceleration.

Bullshit. You can just use the Ryan/Rooney technique of pitching out abruptly. They were totally right about the procedure but just totally backwards on the results.

That is WHY it is so important to get off of a bad tow immediately - while you still have some rational thought instead of the 'oh shit' paralysis that rides the lockout into the ground.

This doesn't make any sense. The longer you hold onto a bad tow the longer your tow pressure will continue to drop. When you're flying in the direction opposite from the one your tug, truck, boat is going or your winch is pulling your tow pressure will be zero and you won't have that...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...catastrophic loss of power that's proven so disastrously inconvenient for so many gliders.

Trust in your winch crew...

Sure...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Why not? What do you have to lose?

...but trust in yourself more.

Well now that I finally understand the physics of a lockout... Yeah. Fer sure. Duh. Can't believe I had things so backwards for so many years and lived.

Train from DAY ONE to get off a bad tow.

Launch with one hand zip tied to a truck tow loop at your hip in real turbulent conditions. Get comfortable with it, master the techniques, make sure you get enough low altitude experience so you don't choke when you get clobbered by something below a hundred feet.

The annoyance and frustration of resetting is far more worth it than testing your lock-out response.

No shit.

I understand California is engulfed in a biblically historic not global warming induced drought. Have you recently been forced to start drinking something that wasn't water based or have you always been like this?

Just over two hours now this new Jack Show insanity mark has stood without challenge. Is this a great time to be alive and involved in hang gliding or what!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7676
Mike Badley

Occupation:
Risk Control Engineer

Zombie Uprising Division
Californians... Move ANYWHERE but, of course, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas.
Thanks Steve.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/25 18:14:59 UTC

I thought it was just the opposite.

Well yeah, you'd THINK.

You'd THINK that:
- long ultrathin bridles that need to feed through tow rings
- towing up on a piece of fishing line can and will:
-- force so many relights that scores of people miss out on epic flying days
-- blow six times in a row on comp pilots in light morning conditions
-- dump people back on the launch cart
-- always break at the worst possible time, when the glider's climbing hard in a near stall situation
-- kill highly experienced professional pilots and their students by dumping them in emergency situations
- mandating the same weak link for 390 pound gliders that you do for 165 pound gliders
- tow mast breakaways and tow mast breakaway protectors that guarantee the glider will get left with the rope
- bicycle brake lever "release actuators" velcroed within easy reach onto downtubes
- cheap bent pin releases that weld themselves shut under normally encountered tensions
- releases unprotected by weak links
- bottom end backup releases
would all be making aerotowing a lot more dangerous. But you'd be wrong 'cause all this has been worked out so that it makes it a lot safer.

Mike Badley - 2014/08/25 19:22:21 UTC

If you think of the physics of the motion - and simplify the forces to a wedge shaped triangle with the winch point at the toe and the glider at the top of the heel with the ground at the bottom of the heel - the force on the glider is the resultant of both a horizontal and vertical component of that force. The resultant becomes LESS if you continue to remove the vertical force (in this case - move the glider towards the ground). So, at any given initial condition that brings on a lockout - as long as the glider is diving towards the ground - the force in line with the tow rope will be LESS than that. (Assuming of course that the winch doesn't add any additional load by pulling even harder). If the weak link didn't break BEFORE the on-set of a lockout - it is not likely to break during the dive to the ground.

That is why those regallo kid's kites can (sometimes) recover from those swoopy dives without crashing into the ground.

We're not the least bit interested in what happens when the lockout has progressed to the point that it's diving for the ground and decreasing tension 'cause if we're down where stuff matters we were dead a long time ago. We need to get the fuck off tow as early as possible when the glider starts rolling to the side...

15-2421


...and tension is increasing. The longer we delay or rely on some totally moronic option like the Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release Strategy the farther away...

17-2601


...we're gonna need the ground to be.

And save the stunt kite analogy 'cause no hang glider has ever stayed/survived on tow long enough to continue the rotation beyond straight down. Our gliders and tow systems can't take the hundred Gs those things can and need to in order to be able to do what they do.

Brian Scharp - 2014/08/25 20:16:16 UTC

Since a lockout occurs when a glider is not traveling inline with the tow, I don't understand how the tension could become less. What happens if the ground doesn't get in the way?

We write a report emphasizing that here wasn't any evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break or impact as the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

Tim Dyer - 2014/08/25 21:30:16 UTC
Las Vegas

The OPERATOR should have noticed the pressure increase long before the pilot was in trouble.

Yeah. Just can't stress enough how absolutely vital to the safety of the towing operation it is for the winch man...

022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png

041-05012
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/13745942893_d4b49eedd9_o.png

088-05301
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/13746233274_c1a80f35c1_o.png


...to stay focused on the pressure gauge until the glider's safely back on the ground.

Only the tow OPERATOR had a chance to save him from a crash.

Seeing as how we only have glider releases within easy reach.
---
Edit - 2014/08/26 06:40:00 UTC

Oops. Read:

What happens if the ground doesn't get in the way?

as:

What happens if the ground gets in the way?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Badley - 2014/08/25 21:30:52 UTC

OK, maybe a better analogy that would be easier to understand - waterskiing. The skier is being pulled behind the boat, but wants to create a 'lockout' condition (moving widely off the direction of the tow) so with BOTH HANDS, he grips the tow handle and digs in - thus the highest force he is likely to see is right then as the angle of the tow changes - as he accelerates, moving forward, the tow force on the rope now becomes less and he can use ONE HAND to hang on to the rope as he prepares to turn back with a nice rooster tail.

In such a way, the glider does exactly the same thing as the water skier. It's a simplification but it might get the point across - the highest force on the weak-link in a lock-out will be at the INITIAL impetus of the lockout. The other forces will act to accelerate the glider and release force on the weak-link.

Bullshit. There's seldom anything worth mentioning going on tension-wise as the glider's getting dangerously, sometimes lethally, out of control. It may, and frequently does, take a fair number of seconds for the tension to ramp up even enough to blow a Quest Link on a heavy glider.

(To answer your question: If the ground wasn't in the way, the glider would just carve a complete circle doing a complete 360 barrel roll in the process.)

Bullshit. A lockout is - by definition - not sustainable. It's a progression which WILL result in the termination of the tow - one way or another.

- Those stunt kites aren't locked out 'cause they're UNDER control and can be returned to straight and level any time the kid feels like it.

- Barrel rolls CAN and HAVE been done on aerotow with light weak links surviving just fine and the tows have been continued. Low angles of attack, low towline tensions, same direction of travel as the tug.

Unless the pilot can INCREASE his angle of attack to create more drag (which is not likely with the tow rope draped OVER the bar and pulling it down & in) he can't increase the force to break the weak-link.

He can't break the weak link 'cause the operator has probably freewheeled the winch. But there's still enough drag in the system to keep him locked out. And this isn't even a real lockout. A lockout is when misaligned tow tension overwhelms a PILOT'S ability to keep the glider under enough control to sustain the tow. This guy never implements any control authority.

You cannot put trust in a weak link to prevent a lock out and CERTAINLY not to release you from tow if you ARE in a lock out.

So then how come the Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association says you can totally trust it to?

Only the pilot (pulling his release...

...with one hand while fighting a lockout with the other...

...or having ice-water in his veins to be able to get a hook knife out and cut the bridle)...

Ice water in his veins plus a couple thousand feet of smooth air, a slack towline, and a half hour of time to spare. BULLSHIT.

...OR the winch operator dumping pressure can rectify the lockout.

It's TENSION - Mister Risk Control Engineer.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Craig Hassan - 2014/08/25 21:44:26 UTC

Sounds nice, but you are missing a key somethin, somethin!
The skis of the skier will eventually return to a parallel direction of travel in your situation. There is an initial change in direction and a return to a following path offset from the boat.

In a lockout the path between the tow line, and the direction of the glider is continually divergent. Try continually turning away from the boat next time you ski! The rope will either rip from your hands or rip you off your skis (eventual catastrophic failure or weaklink break when towing a hang glider).

Whoa. Something nonmoronic from Craig. Who'da thunk.

Mike Badley - 2014/08/25 22:21:57 UTC

Ah well... there you go, trying to use one analogy to explain another...
Water is a different medium than air - so the skier can get quite a bit more lateral bite in water with his ski edges than a hang glider can with his AOA already close to max...

A hang glider's got a hundred and sixty square feet of airfoil to use for teeth. It can do all the damage it needs to with what it has.

Davis Straub - 2014/08/25 22:35:22 UTC

Vectors. They just send people off in different directions.

Which, of course, is a good thing, right Davis? Your mission being to sew as much confusion as possible to keep people perpetually off balance so they can't get on track and start targeting you and your sleazy pigfucker buddies.

Pedro Enrique - 2014/08/25 22:38:06 UTC

So all this explanation about how it happens and why is great, but the question is still unanswered.

Why did the tow operator not release pressure?

There was none to release. All he had to work with was TENSION. (Gawd how I'd love to see rating revocations for people incapable of distinguishing those terms.) And I think he DID dump what he had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU[/video]

0:27. Look at the bow in the towline. A little resistance spooling out plus the drag of half a mile of line... He's not feeling a lot of tension. Watching the progression from that point on I don't think there's any question that he's pulling line off the winch.

And if the student is still learning to fly straight, why was he towed that high?

That's mostly a bingo but fuck learning to fly straight. The glider will mostly do that for you on Day 1, Flight 1. The student needs to start working on TURNS as soon as possible 'cause turns are exactly the same as the roll corrections one needs to keep the glider flying straight.

But they're foot launching him and keeping him upright so's he can learn to foot launch from the slopes that don't exist within a thousand miles of where he's "training" and foot land so's he can safely park in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

And watch what he's doing in preparation for slamming in. Excellent technique for breaking one leg and two arms.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Badley - 2014/08/26 00:45:18 UTC

Davis Straub - 2014/08/25 22:35:22 UTC

Vectors. They just send people off in different directions.

Too true! Vector me out of this weak-link mess.

Yeah. Any moment now somebody could bring up issues of the PURPOSE of the fuckin' weak link and appropriate strengths.

Mike Lake - 2014/08/26 01:32:07 UTC

Line tension decreases in a lockout?
Sorry, I'll have to disagree.

Put simply a lockout is when the glider is trying to turn away from the tow line but can't because of the said tow line. The glider has only one other direction to go and that is to follow a curved path as seen in the video, turning away from the tow line still further.

The same energy is still consumed, in fact, as the glider is trying to fly away from the line the tension is likely to increase somewhat. This is demonstrated by the fact that payout winches tend to payout with a bit more urgency during a lockout and not less.

As said by others the winch-man was this guy's only hope.

Given that he was totally clueless with respect to roll control and equipped only with a placebo release.

W9GFO - 2014/08/26 04:50:44 UTC

Those that use traction kites know that to get the most pull (tension) on the line you fly the kite in figure eights. It is like a perpetual lockout.

No it's not. A lockout is by definition a nonsustainable departure from the direction of pull.

Dave Gills - 2014/08/26 10:53:52 UTC
Grove City, Pennsylvania

At the 40 second mark you can see the activation of the new impact sensing barrel release.

No. That was the old fishing line that's been proven to work over quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows sensing the impact and increasing the safety of the towing operation.

(Presumably saving a pilot from being dragged for miles)

Definitely. That's all he had going for him at that point. Damn good thing that he wasn't using the new two hundred stuff Morningside decided they were happy with. That would've been good for at least five hundred yards.

Carole Sherrington - 2014/08/26 12:55:39 UTC

Mike Lake - 2014/08/26 01:32:07 UTC

Sorry, I'll have to disagree.

This is a guy who's recently done a lot of towing as a winchman.

Not a fraction as much as the guys on the other end of this one. Likewise:

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Experience is virtually meaningless in these discussions.

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/26 13:54:49 UTC

Pedro Enrique - 2014/08/25 22:38:06 UTC

Why did the tow operator not release pressure? And if the student is still learning to fly straight, why was he towed that high?

Bingo! We have a winner!

I learned to fly via scooter tow at Blue Sky.

Yeah, big surprise. So tell me how come Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt never shows up in any of these discussions and sets us all straight. Are we all that much beneath his contempt?

The tow pressures...

Hey Mister Professional Fiction Writer... Do you know what the definition of PRESSURE is?

...were never high enough to create a lockout situation...

How much PRESSURE *IS* enough to create a lockout situation? Can it be done at thirty percent Rooney Link?

04-1409
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14555125331_c930110666_o.png


This glider is LOCKED OUT under ZERO tow pressure. The pilot's control authority is overwhelmed and he's mostly just along for the ride for a bit.

...because the scooter operator can back them off at any moment. If I ever got near the corn, Steve Wendt would back off and put me gently on the ground before I got there.

As in?:

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

So what did Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt tell you was the purpose of using with the towline...

Wills Wing - Scooter Tow Resources
http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/#video

Steve Wendt - 08:26

But with the towline we would use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

...a standard weak link like we would for aerotow, in this particular case 130 greenline, 130 pound test?

This is obviously a student, cross controlling all over the place, and never should have been pulled that high.

Yeah, fuck you and that arrogant lying sonuvabitch who signed you off.

Red Howard - 2014/08/26 14:09:06 UTC

Campers,

Any time I see a student cross-controlling...

What's it look like? I've never seen anyone cross controlling.

I just KNOW this was never done, and it not the fault of the student:

NOTHING's the fault of the student. He's a fucking student. It's the job of the instructor to keep him safe and ensure that he has the understanding of theory and the proficiencies to STAY safe after he's signed off.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Soaring_simulators

And make sure that he works in the simulator the way he'll be when he's actually flying - upright with his hands on the downtubes and no control authority on a decertified aircraft.

In this era, personally, I find this lack to be inexcusable (and I have heard all of the excuses).

no smiley.

Everything's going backwards - FAST.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Mike Lake - 2014/08/26 14:43:32 UTC

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/26 13:54:49 UTC

I learned to fly via scooter tow at Blue Sky. The tow pressures were never high enough to create a lockout situation...

Just to clarify a couple of points.
Tow MISALIGNMENT is the issue, this being the best term I've ever heard to describe the lockout trigger.

Thank you.

Tow tension (note tension not pressure)...

Good freakin' luck.

...is NOT the cause of a lockout, indeed as long as there is no misalignment there is no lockout, whatever the tow tension.

Bullshit. If that were true the Davis Link would be of virtually no use in preventing lockouts. All it would do is dump a lot of gliders into dangerous stalls for no reason. And it DOESN'T do that. It increases the safety of the towing operation - as we clearly see in this example.

Reducing/killing the tension will fix a lockout because it fixes the misalignment. With no tension there is simply nothing to be misaligned to!

Well...

11-1814


12-1915

The surface. But that's just something you have to worry about sometime in the distant future after you've safely terminated the lockout.

Mike Lake - 2014/08/26 14:50:11 UTC

Carole Sherrington - 2014/08/26 12:55:39 UTC

This is a guy who's recently done a lot of towing as a winchman.

And no one here will ever know the reason why!

Try Tad's Hole in the Ground.

AndRand - 2014/08/26 15:43:21 UTC
Poland

offtopic bump...

Chemtrails?

I got a question - why the students are not taught the legs steering when going prone?

What's "prone"?

02-02513
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5075/14208925773_f327a6169e_o.png

03-02800
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/14165632776_5cf298464c_o.png

05-03223
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png

07-43026
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7442/14165624836_4fc82ee1a5_o.png

09-44119
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5191/14165621286_391c0187c7_o.png


We don't LET students fly prone. They stay upright until they're fully qualified for twelve hundred foot mountain solos. If we start letting them go prone just to learn how to turn a glider we'll inevitably and perhaps fatally reduce their proficiency for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. You want something like that on your conscience?

If you start turn inputs with legs...

You mean your landing gear? You wanna have people with their landing gear up at a mere thousand feet just so you'll be able to turn the glider in flight?

...you just can't do cross-controlling

If we had instructors teaching students how to fly then just how much would we be left with to talk about?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Don Arsenault - 2014/08/26 19:29:04 UTC

I wonder if all the comments about cross controlling are coming from pilots who winch tow?

I wonder why it's so fucking difficult for our crack hang gliding instructors to teach people to do THIS:

04-1409
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14555125331_c930110666_o.png


We have people teaching eight year old kids to do things with soccer balls, baseball bats, hockey sticks that require really high degrees of effort, coordination, timing, precision, accuracy under a lot of stress and adversity but fuckin' professional hang gliding instructors don't seem to be capable of teaching adults how to push a fuckin' broom handle sideways. Jesus H. CHRIST.

Are they DELIBERATELY teaching students to "cross control" so they can extend the periods of dependency and income derived from lessons and repair parts?