You are NEVER hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Winglet - 2011/04/28 09:30:58 UTC
Northern Illinois

As someone who is trying to get back into hang gliding after being away for nine years, I read these reports and watch youtube videos of witness videos to better educate myself. I first learned of 'failure to hook in' from watching an 'E-Team' video of someone who forgot to hook in over a cliff. He was fortunate to survive with bush scratches and a sore back. The image burned into my mind.

You first learned of failure to hook in from watching an E-Team video and THAT burned the image into your mind. Great.

Just curious though... What the fuck was your incompetent total idiot of an "instructor" trying to burn into your mind when he was supposed to be teaching you this and requiring you to do hook-in checks *WITH EACH FLIGHT* *JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH*?

(Reminds me of the Ridgely student who was listening to one of our conversations and asked, "What's a lockout?")

With this in mind I have tried to think of ways to prevent myself from a 'failure to hookin'.

Ways? Forget WAYS. There's only one WAY. Assume you're NOT HOOKED IN *EVERY SECOND* leading up to launch and NEVER move a foot unless you've just felt or, better yet, ARE FEELING the glider tugging at your leg loops.

I have a friend who made a laminated card that he attached to his basetube with a checklist that he uses for aerotowing. He must go step by step before he can clear himself for 'go to cruise'. Another thing is just good routine.

Checklists and routines are just super UNTIL there's some kind of disruption or distraction. Then they become totally useless - or worse.

Practicing glider setup and launch prep at home in the back yard. Not to forget an emergency unhook routine in case you have to unhook and back off launch and begin a fresh launch routine start when you reapproach the launch.

It won't work. Try instead dummy launch drills. Get ready to launch, hike up the glider until you feel a tug on your leg loops, start your run... Repeat. Condition yourself in the back yard, at the training hill, in the LZ, at the airport... Every chance you get until it's muscle memory - hardwired.

Lastly I am going to paint my carabiner and tape/paint/mark my hook-in lines a bright neon color i.e. Bright orange, bright pink, neon green. Nice and noticeable.

Great. 'Cept that stuff will all be behind you when it matters and you hafta assume that your crew consists entirely of total idiots who will all be focused on getting you off in a good cycle and nothing else.

Any other good practice ideas??? Drop me a reply.

ZACK!!! PLEEEEEASE???

-See you in the air! -Winglet =]

Or maybe at the bottom of the cliff if we can't get through to you.

JJ Coté - 2011/04/28 10:59:53 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts

One popular approach is to never put on a harness that isn't already attached to a glider, and to never unhook a harness that you're wearing (at least, if you're in a location where you could possibly launch). Widely known as "the Aussie method". Much more effective than visual reminders that you can eventually overlook anyway.

Good to see that you're the same total waste of space you were a couple of years ago.

Christopher LeFay - 2011/04/28 11:06:27 UTC
Istanbul

First couple years of flying: I had the glider on my shoulders and was just repositioning my feet when stopped by a pilot. He had watched as I skipped the hang check and allowed me get all the way to commitment before sounding the alarm. I was unhooked. I couldn't stop shaking for the better part of an hour.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/06 22:57:44 UTC

But I did have an incident where I failed to hook in. At High Rock. Eddie Miller saved my sorry butt. Sure woke me up. Too bad Bill did not have a scare like that. I now have a nice DSL line through the tangle of Alzheimer's plaque. That was at least ten years ago and there is still not a blade of grass on that neuron path. So that is not how I am going to die.

What we really have to do is to vaccinate pilots, like I have been, but without the scare. How do you do that? How do you get them to internalize a procedure so that they do it no matter what distractions are present? I don't know.

That guy deserves a medal. That is EXACTLY what he should've done - EXCEPT...

Instead of sounding the alarm he should've stood in front of you at the front of the ramp and asked you to lift the glider as high as you could. You'd have been shaking for an hour AND had the proper check permanently BURNED into your circuitry.

Another time, did a step-through, 'biner tight, ready to roll - and was offered a hang check. Took it, vocalized all of my checks - and found that my legs weren't in their loops. That cured me. Since then, I vocalize everything I check; if I'm interrupted or somebody else is calling out what they see, I dispense with the distraction and start over.

Great Mavi. You're cured. You're distraction proof. Now you can do a hang check and afterwards be totally confident that you're hooked in and have your leg loops every launch, no matter what happens, right up to the instant you start running off the ramp.

Still, maybe I'll hook a bell in my carabiner to be removed when I hook-in... or a strap that runs from the base bar to the carabiner.

OH! So you're still not TOTALLY confident? There may be hope for you yet.

It's one of those things that doesn't tolerate less than one hundred percent success, and I'm a ninety percent sort of guy - tops.

Not a whole lot of hope - it's the ten to twenty percent guys (like me and Steve) that are a whole lot easier to work with - but you just might be worth saving.

Craig Hassan - 2011/04/28 12:40:08 UTC
Ohio

I think it was my second day training. I watched a foot launched scooter tow where the pilot did not hook in. He was using an over under bridle that pinned him to the glider until he was 50-70' up. He pinned off and came plummeting down into the trees.

He survived.

Sadly, the winch operator and the PIC were both accomplished instructors, who I would still trust to teach my kids.

Guess it would be considered a bit over the top to say something about the gene pool at this point. Really hard to resist though.

Tom Galvin - 2011/04/28 12:53:10 UTC
Ireland

David Boggs - 2011/04/11 15:30:02 UTC

Recent news and awareness don't seem to work.
Check list don't seem to work...

You never hear about when they do save a life, only when they don't. There is no perfect system.

Right. So just strip off and don't even discuss the most effective and critical layer of protection.

Grant Bond (Bondy) - 2011/04/28 12:55:06 UTC
Perth

Sad to hear.

Last weekend this Aussie here in Western Australia (not me) who launched unhooked was lucky not to hurt himself, just his pride. Goes to show us Aussies are far from perfect, still happens here as well.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
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18-0919 - 21-1025

Yeah. The Magic Land Of Oz... Where there's an entire - albeit small - continent of people totally incapable of conceiving of a situation in which a pilot could be at launch under a glider that he's not hooked into - so NOBODY *EVER* does or looks for a hook-in check.

In this case there's a pilot, a couple of observers, and a cameraman.

Oh well, they DID check out the glider before seeing how the pilot was faring. Gotta give 'em credit for getting that much right.

[bobk]

Thanks for your work on this Tad.

I've cross posted a link to this topic at:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=646

I think this is a good discussion to have everywhere.

Bob Kuczewski

[Tad Eareckson]

Ah!!! A post from somebody who isn't me or Zack!

Discussions do very little good. It doesn't matter how solid the logic is - you're only gonna get through to people with IQs of about 75 or better. And remember, we're talking hang glider "pilots" - so the results of a hundred pages of debating are seldom measurable.

We need to target INDIVIDUALS worth saving and keeping in the gene pool. Anybody listening with the ability to talk to Winglet and/or Mavi PLEASE do whatever you can to get through to them - publicly or privately.

Thanks much for staying with this issue.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Robert Seckold (Relate2) - 2011/04/11 09:40:33 UTC
Australia

You know Jim I saw this yesterday and was just sad that this continues to happen year after year after bloody year.
I wasn't going to comment but seeing as though you made the comment it was BEING IN A RUSH is the common thread in this type of accident...

Yeah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lvH-KxGlQ

http://vimeo.com/16572582

password - red
2-112
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
18-0919


Right.

[Christopher]

Tad,

I appreciate your passion on this issue, and take your point. I think it a small but essential matter to teach students that a "clear" call is predicated on confirming connection. I perform a step through, rotate, examine and test the carabiner gate before picking up the glider as a complement to a hang check; if I subsequently set the glider down on launch, picking it up again is predicated on another such test. Variance in launch conditions doesn't recommend lifting the glider to test as a routine in the moment immediately before launch- I favor routine that doesn't include variation/judgment as a component ("conditions are too strong/unstable for a safe strap-tight glider lift, so this time I'll..."). Still, the method I've used does have a leg-loop sized whole in it; I'm adding leg-loop confirmation to the step-through routine. If conditions allow for it, a strap-tight glider lift will be included.

Check out this distressing thread and associated videos:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=233922

The instructor has his student flying without any sort of hang check. I'm making inquiries to determine who the instructor is.

[Tad Eareckson]

A zillion thanks for gracing our pathetic little forum with your presence. I keep dreaming of the day when we hit the critical mass required to turn this into something much better than a monologue by yours truly.

Now lemme start beating up on you.

I think it a small but essential matter to teach students that a "clear" call is predicated on confirming connection.

Being a little more specific/emphatic...

What is more essential than ANYTHING else in hang gliding is to scare the crap out of each and every student before he ever touches a glider and make him understand that this is a loaded gun issue - that THE quickest and easiest way he can kill himself in this sport is to assume he's hooked in two seconds before launch based upon something he (thinks he) did three or more seconds before launch. The pilot who is scared shitless IMMEDIATELY before EVERY launch is the one who will NEVER launch unhooked.

I perform a step through, rotate, examine and test the carabiner gate before picking up the glider as a complement to a hang check; if I subsequently set the glider down on launch, picking it up again is predicated on another such test.

- A hang check has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with establishing or confirming hook-in status. When used as such it's the biggest single killer in hang gliding.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC

When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.

DO A HOOK IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

My partners - Steve Pearson and Mike Meier - and I have over twenty-five thousand hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another five thousand flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods (hang check and Aussie) outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

Both of those were written in response to the Bill Priday fatality at Whitwell the day before Steve posted.

And this is what one of our many local shitheads told Bill - upon intercepting him approaching the south ramp at McConnellsburg unhooked - exactly two weeks before:

You are not hooked in until after the hang check.

Translation:

The gun is always loaded until after you flipped the safety on.

- The technique you described is PROBABLY gonna keep YOU from from launching unhooked. No way in hell it's gonna keep ME from launching unhooked 'cause I'm too undisciplined and stupid to unerringly follow that procedure and/or remember if I actually did it five to thirty seconds ago.

What's the longest you've ever stood waiting for a cycle after picking up the glider? Are you positive that you followed your procedure at the time you call clear?

- Does every one else at the sites you fly unerringly follow your procedure? What are the launching pilots, crew, nearby observers looking at, thinking about the second before the foot moves? When do people drop their guards?

Variance in launch conditions doesn't recommend lifting the glider to test as a routine in the moment immediately before launch- I favor routine that doesn't include variation/judgment as a component...

- I flew over a period of which started on 1980/04/02 and ended on 2008/10/12. I learned and IMMEDIATELY adopted the lift and tug technique in the fall of that first year. I flew dunes, hills, bluffs, knolls, ramps, cliffs, slots, buttes, and foot (and platform and dolly) launched tow. I launched in everything between light tail to clear-or-take-wire-crew-with-you including nasty cross and gustiness.

From that fall on I NEVER ONCE launched without tightening my suspension IMMEDIATELY before and NEVER ONCE experienced anything remotely problematic doing it.

- Because of problems with individual build versus glider geometry/fit not everyone can do the lift and tug trick. (Zack's a prime example (but we're working on that problem with the needle and thread (aren't we, Zack?)). However, amongst folk who can I have NEVER ONCE heard of an associated problem at launch.

- ROUTINES are NOT the answer to this problem. Routines are great - until there's a distraction or disruption. Then they go straight to hell and we can preach all about discipline and focus all we want and it's not gonna change anything 'cause we're all human. We SHOULD give them our best 'cause they DO help but the keys to this problem are FEAR and Pavlovian conditioning - probably in that order.

...("conditions are too strong/unstable for a safe strap-tight glider lift, so this time I'll...").

- If conditions are too strong/unstable for a safe strap-tight glider lift then they're too strong/unstable to be on the ramp without adequate crew. And if you have adequate crew there is ZERO reason NOT to have the suspension tight the entire time you're in serious mode.

- I'm gonna state - and wait to hear contradiction - that, regardless of the hook-in issue, the goddam suspension should be tight all the time anyway. 'Cause when it is the pilot's more easily and better helping the crew control the glider and the glider's flying where you want it to. I can't remember ever being on the ramp in significant wind when my suspension WASN'T tight.

I'm adding leg-loop confirmation to the step-through routine.

Excellent.

If conditions allow for it, a strap-tight glider lift will be included.

Excellent. And please get back to me regarding conditions/situations that DON'T allow it - 'cause, like I said, I myself have never encountered anything nor have I ever heard of anything from any of the lift and tug crowd.

Check out this distressing thread and associated videos...

I'm on dialup so, for the time being, I'll take your word for what's going on in the videos.

The instructor has his student flying without any sort of hang check. I'm making inquiries to determine who the instructor is.

On the face of that statement there's absolutely NOTHING that instructor is doing wrong. There is NOTHING in any of the USHGA rating requirements that even mentions - let alone demands - a hang check.

A hang check is good/necessary for ONE THING and one thing only - checking clearance. And I've never heard of anyone getting so much as scratched 'cause he was hanging a foot too high or low. And there are easier and usually better ways to check everything else normally taken care of during a hang check.

So if that instructor and/or student have ONCE checked that glider/harness for clearance - they're good. A thousand times better to do that than the kind of illegal lethal bullshit Matt's doing. He's having students do hang checks while waiting in line at the training hill and at the back of the ramp on the ridge and proceed under the assumption that they - and their fellows - are connected to the gliders from those points on.

However, I'm guessing that there are no hook-in checks JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH. If that is indeed the case then, yeah, this instructor needs to be identified, hunted down, and assassinated.

BUT...

Failing the hook-in check I would rather see a pilot doing nothing at all - like I'm guessing this one is - than doing a hook-in check and/or using some other procedure and/or device that reassures him that he's hooked in prior to those critical final two seconds.

A few more comments on:

I favor routine that doesn't include variation/judgment as a component...

- As I've said, for those of us who can do it I've never heard that lift and tug is any more problematic than moving a foot forward to start accelerating the glider. I'm so freakin' hardwired that I would be physically incapable of NOT doing it.

- This is hang gliding. Hang gliding is aviation. Aviation is virtually all about variation and judgment.

Lift and tug does not guarantee that you're gonna land at the same time and place as your glider.

Just 'cause the glider is stopping doesn't mean that you've got the carabiner safely engaging your hang strap. One time after landing following a few passes on the dunes I went to get unhooked and found I pretty much was already - the nose of the carabiner was parked on the middle of the strap and the gate was open.

Just 'cause you're feeling something pulling on your legs when you lift doesn't mean you've got your loops. You could be feeling your pants being pulled by the harness being pulled by the glider. Charles Schneider, one of Zack's local crowd, pulled that trick.

So we've gotta do our best to get the other stuff - assembly and preflight - right so at the moment of commitment we've got as much redundancy going for us as we bipedal perpetual fuckups can muster.

It's better to connect the harness to the glider before entering it to ensure and check the integrity of the assembly. But variations in circumstances (time, endurance, terrain, wind, turbulence, dust devils) may preclude this from being a safe and/or sane procedure. Neither Jockey's Ridge nor Hyner View will ever spawn a whole lot of Aussie Methodist nut cases.

So you assess the threats and risk/reward ratios and do the best you can with what you have in the given circumstances.

- In over thirty years of watching and studying these bruisings, manglings, and killings I have NEVER ONCE heard anyone say:

If only Yossi...

...had been capable of doing a hook-in check!
...had had conditions safe enough for him to do a hook-in check!
...hadn't forgotten that ONE TIME to do a hook-in check!
...hadn't been in too much of a hurry to get off in a good cycle to think of doing a hook-in check!
...hadn't been too distracted by his camera adjustment problem just before to do a hook-in check!
...'s wire crew - all four of those guys - hadn't forgotten that ONE TIME to look for a hook-in check!
...'s winch driver hadn't been so focused on the windsock that he hit the gas without looking for a hook-in check!
...'s tug driver had been able to see in the mirror that he hadn't done a hook-in check!

The ONLY reason we keep killing Yossis is 'cause nobody's teaching, requiring, doing, asking for, looking for, expecting hook-in checks - not 'cause we can't or are forgetting to do them every now and then.

We keep killing Yossis 'cause EVERYONE is ASSUMING that he and everyone he's helping or watching has done SOMETHING to ensure that he's hooked in by the time he's standing under his glider at the front of the ramp.

And we will NEVER put a dent in this major killer until we start assuming the opposite, realizing that - relative to those two seconds before our foot starts moving forward - nothing else in our flying day matters, and start using those two seconds for doing something more constructive than thinking about the lapse rate.

So PLEASE - for your own sake and as an example to others - do this every time. And start getting a little obnoxious about it with a few people you deem assets to the gene pool.

And if you're not buying what I'm saying please fight me tooth and nail until we reach a resolution.

Again, thanks very much for coming over here, reading, and commenting. Hope this will be the first of many exchanges.

[Tad Eareckson]

Some time after winding down a bit from the shock and amusement of reading this...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Craig Hassan - 2011/04/28 12:40:08 UTC
Ohio

I think it was my second day training. I watched a foot launched scooter tow where the pilot did not hook in. He was using an over under bridle that pinned him to the glider until he was 50-70' up. He pinned off and came plummeting down into the trees.

He survived.

Sadly, the winch operator and the PIC were both accomplished instructors, who I would still trust to teach my kids.

...it occurred to me that Craig is talking about this:

Joe Gregor - 2005/07

An extremely experienced pilot was launching a new Falcon 2 via scooter tow. The bridle system used employed two lines: one attached high on the harness for the initial climb-out, and one attached lower for the high altitude portion of the tow. The pilot failed to hook in prior to launch and held onto the control frame (assisted by the upper towline hanging over the bar) until he released at approximately fifty feet. The glider was locked out by this time as the pilot let go with one hand to effect the release. The pilot was propelled through a pine tree, dislocating his shoulder and breaking an arm. The reporter listed a number of factors contributing to this accident including: moving the glider while wearing the harness unhooked; failure of pilot to perform a hook-in check, perhaps due to shared responsibility for the launch; fatigue at the end of a long day; use of a double release system that is difficult to locate in an emergency; poor radio communication with the tow operator; and possible lack of a weak link. An additional factor may have been the high experience level of the accident pilot leading all involved to worry less about backup safety checks.

So now we know about when this douchebag started flying and about where this operation is. (And we also know about who qualified a douchebag like this to fly hang gliders.)

And if you go to USHGA you only find two Instructors for Ohio only about eighty miles apart with a straight shot of Interstate practically connecting their driveways.

And if you follow the link to the school...

http://www.aldenaviationworks.com
Alden Aviation - Wings To Fly

Sure enough, you find a pilot on a tandem glider with what looks a lot like a twelve year old kid on his left side and an aerotow release lever mounted where the pilot must let go with one hand to effect the release and such that is difficult - or impossible - to locate in an emergency.



And you very soon find out that they also do scooter.



I wonder if you get a do-over or, if that's not possible, at least a partial refund for the tow or gift certificate if your kid is launched unhooked. Or maybe they've got a deal with an adoption agency to get you prioritized on a waiting list if things turn out worse than a broken arm.

Oh, while I think of it, Craig... How come you're telling everybody about how you'd trust these guys to teach your kids but not telling anybody who they are so they can send their kids to them for instruction?

When Joe says:

...failure of pilot to perform a hook-in check, perhaps due to shared responsibility for the launch...

He doesn't mean HOOK-IN CHECK. Joe wouldn't know what a hook-in check was if it bit him in the ass.

Joe Gregor - 2007/05

California
Cliff launch

An advanced pilot (Tad Hurst) launched unhooked. The pilot was able to hold on and effect a landing on the beach below, but suffered a broken pelvis and internal bleeding. It is extremely fortunate that this pilot had the strength to hold on for the duration of the flight, and it's amazing that these were the only injuries suffered. Lesson learned: HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK! Your life will most often depend on it.

Joe means hang check. And so does the reporter. If he actually meant "hook-in check" it would've taken BOTH the "failure of pilot to perform" AND a failure of the winch driver to hold off on launch until observing it. People and operations (if any) who adhere to the hook-in check protocol don't have unhooked launches.

So based upon what they said at the time and the fact that they apparently haven't said anything different since it's a pretty good bet that they're operating such that nobody ever moves a glider while wearing a harness unhooked, fails to perform a hang check, flies fatigued at the end of a long day, uses a double release system that is difficult to locate in an emergency, has poor radio communication with the tow operator, and possibly lacks of a weak link. (Yeah, people, if you're gonna launch unhooked and fly one handed lockouts unhooked you DEFINITELY wanna have a weak link which will automatically sense whenever you are in danger and abort the tow "before you can get into too much trouble.")

So, given that they've cleaned up their act in all of those areas, anybody who takes to the air at that operation can be totally confident that he's hooked in at the moment of launch.

Got a minimum age limit? I've got a niece I'm pretty sure would like to give it a shot. And the pine certainly must've grown a good bit bigger and more absorbent in the course of the past half dozen years.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!

Pablo Vicens - 2011/05/12 09:46:01 UTC
Madrid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
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18-0919 - 21-1025

Surprising the tranquility of the white hat man.

And here a simple way to avoid to forget lock the leg straps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9sLTg-MQWc

Yep. And whenever you're standing there on launch you will KNOW you have your leg loops 'cause - no matter what the distractions or disruptions you may have just experienced - there's NO POSSIBILITY that you have broken that procedure.

Carm Moreno - 2011/05/12 16:58:58 UTC

I changed to the Aussie method but I still verify and LOOK at my biner when I walk to launch. At least TWICE! My last flight I smiled and checked my biner just thinking that I know I am hook in but I can not help it it is a habit.

Yep, if you do the Aussie Method and check your carabiner when you're walking to launch you can ALWAYS be ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE you're hooked in (and have your leg loops) at the time you commit to launch.

To each your own so I am not saying this is the best way. You need to come up with your own method to ensure this does not happen to you.

Yep, to each his own. Don't worry about the conditions of your Beginner, Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced ratings which state:

With each flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Just do whatever the fuck you feel like 'cause this is PILOT CONTROLLED AVIATION.

Whatever method you use just take a looksy at the biner. If you put the glider down a simple walk thru is all it takes.

JUST MAKE SURE YOU DO SOMETHING!!

And always assume that you and your fellow pilot have.

Happy flying is safe flying!!

And scared shitless two seconds before EVERY flight is safe launching.

Matt Pericles (FormerFF) - 2011/05/12 17:01:49 UTC
Roswell, Georgia

+ 1. Come up with something redundant. I do Aussie, then a post assembly check, then a preflight, and finally a hang check.
-
H2 FL CL FSL
Falcon 3 170

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Matt Pericles - 2009/08/25 00:57:41 UTC

Y'know, Tad, I don't generally read your posts. I suspect there's some useful information in them somewhere, but I don't care to wade through the bluster to find it. And I don't normally respond to them either, that old saying about arguing onto the internet comes to mind. But when you found it necessary to rain on the congratulations that were due Alan in the post from which you extracted that quote, I thought it was time to say something.

I'm not sure what you thought was going to happen to Alan's connection to the glider in the ten feet between where Gordon had hang checked him and where he launched. In those light air conditions, it would be eminently practical to do a last minute connection check. However, when the wind picks up to a nice easy 10 to 15 like it did most of Saturday, I'd much rather wire crew for a pilot whose attentions are 100 percent on getting a launch, and not on stretching his hang strap tight enough to determine if he is attached to the glider, lest a gust or an attention slip cause the pilot to lose control of the glider, and pitch all four of us off of the mountain. I'd much rather help him get a hang check just before he gets on the ramp, when all eight of our feet are on terra firma and the wind velocity is less.

Yep, you're still the Former FF alright. Once you're done that hang check at the back of the ramp you're good to go - especially if you have an instructor standing next to you. So keep on focusing one hundred percent on getting off the ramp and zero percent on whether you SHOULD be getting off the ramp and I'll keep looking to see when you REALLY become former.

(Good to know you have a Cliff Launch signoff.)

David Boggs - 2011/05/13 03:25:58 UTC
Beaumont, California

Its a Component not apparel

Yeah Dave, keep conditioning yourself. "If I'm in a harness I MUST be connected to a glider. (And so must anyone else who's in a harness.)"

Christopher LeFay - 2011/05/13 05:44:15 UTC

A step through might only show that your harness is connected to the glider - not that you are; for that, you must put tension on your leg loops. While this can be done in a step-through, it requires a bit of contorting.

When you're doing a step-through - which is a PREFLIGHT CHECK - you can just look and feel, neither one of which requires any contorting. Why would anyone do otherwise?

Some advocate verifying a connection by lifting the glider until all straps are tensioned - hang and leg - because a connection check that depends on adherence to a regimen are subject to error.

WHEN, Christopher? You haven't said WHEN. That's pretty crucial.

99.9% vigilance combined with distraction may miss the leg loops - something that a hang check or step through can't perfectly account for. I reckon the contrivance employed in the second video attempts to speak to this.

That's why WHEN is critical. If you incorporate it as a muscle memory element of your launch sequence it's distraction proof - even for a total moron like me.

Too bad you didn't stay in the discussion(s) over here.

Grant Bond - 2011/05/13 13:02:54 UTC
Perth

Me three
I was on the hill with the pilot a couple of weekends ago and was fine with his glider on the car ready to go though somewhat humbled. One of the other pilots there said he was hooked in then unclipped to get something out of his car before launch, good thing he let go early.

And, of course, none of you Aussie Methodist True Believer nut cases could conceive of the concept of a hook-in check with guns to your heads.

David Boggs - 2011/05/13 17:16:10 UTC

I have a coocon and I crawl out of it always ,
Doh forgot that water bottle ?
Tough, I never unclip while in it.. NEVER ! So it saves 1 minute, why so I can first at the scene of my splatt ? Pass

Yeah, and after you've wasted that extra minute there's no freakin' way you're gonna waste two seconds doing a hook-in check.

Carm Moreno - 2011/05/13 17:29:48 UTC

I crawl out of the harness. It really does not take long.

I used to YELL out if I really had to unhook for some stupid reason. I'd do my best not to.

Whatever it takes if you must unhook say it out loud. Think of it as a reinforcement in your own mind that you did unhook.

But never, under any circumstances, do what I do - which is to tell myself two seconds before EVERY launch that I'm NOT HOOKED IN.

Adam (get high) - 2011/05/13 18:49:39 UTC
Central Coast, California

I thought this would be a mistake that I could never make, but then one day with a break of my routine and I forgot to hook in.

Yeah. I thought the precise opposite. I KNEW this was a mistake I would DEFINITELY make. That's why I didn't and you and all those dead people did.

I keep a pretty light grip so I didn't try to hang on at all, and my glider flew right out of my hands. It flew a lot better than the one in the video and it was gut wrenching to watch my wing flying and going up without me. Luckily it crashed in some bushes with no visible damage. Since then I've also adopted the Aussie method and still try to lift the wing enough to feel a slight tug. If you have a routine, don't break it.

- How 'bout adopting lifting the wing to feel a slight tug - JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - and still trying the Aussie Method.

- You didn't say WHEN you still try to lift the wing enough to feel a slight tug. I'm guessing it's not real close to launch 'cause if it was you wouldn't be talking about the fucking Aussie Method.

- What are you focused on when somebody else launches?

Flyingseb - 2011/05/13 19:16:02 UTC
Brittany

Personally, I never lift my glider while in my harness, unhooked.
If I wear my harness, then I'm going to fly, then if I go under under my wing I hook immediately, and then lift and walk with the glider.
Again, never lift my glider while wearing my harness, unhooked.

Hang check can help, too.

But for the love of God don't EVER do a hook-in check. No way could that help.

Eric Hinrichs - 2011/05/13 21:31:06 UTC
West Coast US

I went to Chelan for the Nationals in '95 as a free flyer. They were requiring everyone to use the Australian method, and you were also not allowed to carry a glider without being hooked in.

Did any of those assholes require anyone to adhere to USHGA regulations?

This was different for me, I hook in and do a full hang check just behind launch right before I go. I was also taught to do a hooked in check right before starting my run, lifting or letting the wind lift the glider to feel the tug of the leg loops.

Greblo?

So I used their method and I'm hooked in, carrying my glider to launch and someone yells "Dust devil!" Everyone around runs for their gliders (most of which are tied down) and I'm left standing alone in the middle of the butte with a huge monster wandering around. I heard later that it was well over three hundred feet tall, and some saw lightning at the top. After that it was clear that no one is going to decide for me or deride me for my own safety methods, someone else's could have easily got me killed.

Grant Bond - 2011/05/14 03:04:04 UTC

When I done my course there were no options, do it the Aussie way or get your arse kicked. The rules were to never get into a harness without your helmet already on in case you get flipped and to never be in a harness that isn't clipped in. The instructor made a very strong point that we never unhook with the harness still on. He told us this way it's impossible to launch unhooked and I'm glad we used this method. At the start it seems a hassle at times but you soon get used to it.

K C Benn - 2011/05/14 06:58:09 UTC
Ogden

I always do a hang check before I fly. First hook in, then leg loops, then parachute safety pins, then helmet chin strap. Then before launch I lift my glider high enough to feel my leg loops pulling against me. I run, pull in a little, and then run some more. I like to feel the glider flying with me before I even leave the ground. If I did not feel the glider I would just let go. I am glad that guy didn't hang on very long,
-
H4 - FL CL AWCL FSL RLF TUR.
Flying since 1975.
Gliders, 17 foot Manta St, 220 Electra Flyer Wildflower, LEAF 6-C, Oly 160, WW Omega, Comet, Comet O.V.R., Comet 2, TRX, WW Fusion, Dream 220, Predator, and T-2 154.
Love to Fly King Mountain.
The Crawford Mountain is the home site.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15337
unhooked take off clip

Robert Seckold - 2010/02/09 09:02:34 UTC
Australia

Let's say it is impossible for an Atos pilot to climb into his harness while it is attached to the glider, although I think I read of someone who said it was possible.

Anyway for the sake of the argument let's say it is impossible. What has that got to do with the 99.9999% of the rest of the hang gliders where it is very easy to do so?

The same for the argument about the five sites around the world where they say it is impossible to walk your glider to launch while attached to the hang glider. What has that got to do with the other 99.9999% of sites where it is quite safe to do so.

Both are spurious arguments.

Not even Robert?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=924
Tragedy at Team Challenge

Davis Straub - 2005/10/01 23:12:07 UTC

Well, very simply we could make a new rule for competition. If you are seen in your harness but not hooked into your glider you are automatically disqualified.

Or Davis?

Even with their "requirements" and having someone on each launch whose job it was to make sure each pilot was hooked in before going to launch, there was still an incident of a pilot running down the hill unhooked. (He let go so was just banged up.)

So, obviously, those assholes WEREN'T requiring anyone to adhere to USHGA regulations.

That same trip up north in '95 I also saw two pilots on two different launches almost get seriously injured or killed because they had wheels on. Both couldn't control their gliders, got turned 90 degrees and almost got sucked off a precarious launch sideways.

They got lockable wheels now. Doesn't hafta be all or nothing.
And was it a great idea for them to be up there without crew anyway - wheels or not?

Before I started flying, a good friend wiped out a motorcycle right in front of me on a mountain road and broke his neck. He wasn't wearing a helmet and talking to the doctor he was certain that the extra weight of the helmet would have completed the fracture and severed his spinal cord.

You're wondering what's the point? For the most part we should all be responsible for our own safety decisions. I appreciate the debate on these subjects, but it's easy to get offended when others with different opinions claim that they're "right." (You're wrong.)

Right before I start my launch run I say "hooked in"...

I always say "unhooked". The gun is ALWAYS loaded.

...as I feel the leg straps go tight and there's only one time in nineteen years with thousands of flights that I found an issue. At Marina beach I had taken the leg loops off to make it easier to walk in the sand and carry up the south dune. My harness was hooked in to the glider, but as I floated it up just before launching it kept going and was quickly very apparent that something was wrong. Hook in check works great for me!

Bull's-eye.

I floated mine up at Jockey's Ridge and it got a lot higher than it should have. So then I hooked in and got it to stop floating before I launched.

So when are you Jack Show assholes gonna start jumping all over this guy?

Robert, I'm not hearing anything. Oh well, it's kinda early tomorrow morning down under there - but I better hear something before too much longer.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!

Grant Bond - 2011/05/14 03:04:04
Perth

When I done my course there were no options, do it the Aussie way or get your arse kicked.

So how come the Aussie way ain't in the Aussie rating requirements?

The rules were to never get into a harness without your helmet already on in case you get flipped and to never be in a harness that isn't clipped in.

1. Indicating that the longer you're on the ground clipped in the more likely you are to flip your glider and need your helmet.
2. How confident are you that your helmet will prevent injuries to your head? Or arms, knees, neck, spine, et cetera?
3. Did you even bother to skim Eric's post?

The instructor made a very strong point that we never unhook with the harness still on.

The instructor is a total moron.

He told us this way it's impossible to launch unhooked and I'm glad we used this method.

The instructor in my hunter safety course told us that after you've unloaded the rifle and flipped the safety off it's impossible to blow anyone's brains out. I'm glad lotsa people use this method - makes the news so much more entertaining in October and November.

At the start it seems a hassle at times buy soon get used to it.

Super. If you're as meticulous in your adherence to your procedures as you are in your writing I'm sure you'll never have a problem. Buy will you also make sure no one else at launch ever has a problem?

Did this asshole ever say ANYTHING about a hook-in check? (Rhetorical.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22079
Hanging from velcro.........

Matt Christensen - 2011/06/02 00:21:46 UTC
Vienna, Virginia

I thought I should pass on a lesson learned from the HG Spectacular. As you may know, many of us were flying borrowed gliders at this event. After two days of flying, one of the pilots flying a borrowed glider requested a hang check, which he had done prior to every flight. During the hang check it was noticed that something looked odd with the hangstrap. Upon closer inspection it was found that the hang strap was attached to the keel using only velcro! A little tug on the velcro and the pilot dropped free.

I am new in the HG community, but wanted to share this experience with everyone, as it freaked me out to see that one of our fellow pilots had flown with this configuration. I feel like I am pretty meticulous with my preflight inspections, but this experience reminded me to take nothing for granted and to take extra care when signing off on a hang check for a fellow pilot.

Luckily the pilot weighed a lot less than me and was not injured as a result of this crazy set up.

Fly safe my friends.
-
Freedom 170
Many a false step was made by standing still.

During the hang check it was noticed...

Upon closer inspection it was found...

...take extra care when signing off on a hang check for a fellow pilot.

- All meaning that it wasn't the pilot who detected the problem.

- Also meaning that neither this hang check nor the previous short one on the sand nor the long one in the air detected the problem.

- Note that:
- it was the goddam hang check which gave the false green for the previous flight
- what detected the problem was a visual preflight inspection (by an assistant)

- So what's more important and effective - the visual preflight inspection or the goddam hang check?

- What's easier - the visual preflight inspection or the goddam hang check?

- Is a hang check when used for ANYTHING other than the only thing it's good for - checking the clearance from the basetube - more likely to save or kill you?

- Was anybody at the Spectacular doing hook-in checks? (Just kidding. Why would anyone do a hook-in check if he had JUST DONE a hang check?)

- What idiot installed the hang strap?

Many a false step was made by standing still.

Many false - and last - steps have been made by not standing still long enough to consider the consequences of moving forward under possibly false assumptions.

Freedom 170

That's not a good name for a glider model. Puts you in the wrong frame of mind to fly the thing.

fakeDecoy - 2011/06/02 00:50:00 UTC
Fort Funston

He should have noticed something like that way before hooking in. What the hell did he preflight, if he didn't even notice there wasn't a decent hang strap?

If I saw a glider with a velcro hang strap, I'd be hesitant to fly it even if I had another hang strap available. Safety stuff gets overblown on this site cuz there's nothing else to talk about for people who don't really fly, but a preflight is pretty important, and some people don't even do it.

Example pic below. The glider was flown this way.

Media BLOCKED

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and log in to see this content

Sorry, if you're not on the Jack Show (or not allowed on the Jack Show - 'cause that's the only way the motherfucker can handle challenges to his competence and character) - you're not allowed to see this!

-
T2
I fly Funston because it's cold and wet.
Never trust internet pilots!

And ALWAYS trust your instructor and the memory of the hang check you did just thirty seconds ago.

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/02 01:04:33 UTC
Queenstown

Safety stuff gets overblown on this site cuz there's nothing else to talk about for people who don't really fly

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238
NZ accident who was the pilot?

Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21

I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition. Tomorrow (which should begin soon in NZ) the doctors will begin to reduce his medication, and they will have more information at that time. There are no neck or spinal injuries. This information has been passed on to me through a chain of several people, so while I think it is all accurate, I am not sure. Lisa from Quest is in contact with Jim's family and also with Jim's employers in NZ. She will send hospital information so you can send good wishes. She will also keep us updated on the most current news about Jim. In the meantime, please do not call NZ or Lisa at Quest. This is a difficult time as many of us love Jim very much, and I know you are all anxious for news, as we are.

Matt Christensen - 2011/06/02 01:34:29 UTC



I think as long as the safety debates are respectful, people can choose to jump in or ignore them.

- Respectful? On a hang gliding forum?

- Why just ignore them when you can click them to The Basement and sabotage, lock, and delete them - and ban anyone who's winning the debate?

My only intent in posting this was to add a little emphasis on the importance of our safety practices. The whole process is fundamentally pretty simple, but also fundamentally important.

I personally read all of the accident reports, so that I can learn from them.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439
Some day we will learn

Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC
Sunnyvale, California

In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.

In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.

The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?

I hope that anyone who reads this post will take a few extra minutes to consider their preflight/hang check procedures.

Also consider abandoning your hang check procedure altogether and using the time you save for doing something LESS likely to get you killed.

There is no question that the pilot should have found this in his preflights, but I am sure glad that it was finally caught with no incident resulting.

It WAS an incident. It was actually TWO incidents. For the purpose of the exercises the guy got killed on both flights.

JJ Coté - 2011/06/02 02:54:43 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts

The late Jeff Nicolay told me that there were two times that he launched unhooked, one of them being a time that he was hooked into velcro.

Then he only launched unhooked ONCE. There's an important distinction between not being hooked in and not being hooked in properly, safely, securely.

I can easily imagine somebody who doesn't understand how things work putting on a hangstrap that has a velcro strip that's supposed to just keep it snug, and hooking it in with the velcro instead.

Darwin Effect. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Very much like that haulback string in that picture. Or the time I went rock climbing with a woman who didn't understand how a figure-8 is supposed to be used -- she rappelled down after me, and when she got to the bottom I saw to my horror that she had hooked things up in a way that, if the rope were to have become unloaded for some reason, could have just dropped her.

Possible example.

If it ain't your own glider, a thorough preflight is even more important, because it could have been assembled by a moron. Don't assume anything, do the checks.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

JJ Coté - 2009/09/02 04:45:48 UTC

I'm not advising anyone to not do lift'n'tug. However, the real safety issue in my case (and maybe that of some others) is that if I were to lift the glider off my shoulders high enough to feel the leg straps within two seconds before starting my launch run, it would significantly increase the chances that my glider and I would be in the trees five seconds later.

But if you're stupid enough to be without wire crew at a launch at which doing a hook-in check could be an imaginary factor in putting you in the trees within five seconds go ahead and skip that check and assume you're hooked in. Especially if you're jj.

Allen Lavivere - 1990/01
Granby, Massachusetts

When the glider hit the trees, I got pulled off and fell toward the ground where I landed on the back of my neck and shoulders. I was very lucky to walk away with two fractured vertebrae and a severely injured self-image. Now I know how easily it can happen. I was being careful and when I told Jeff Nicolay about it he said one time it happened to him. He said the one thing that struck him was how easy it was to do. Now he said before launch he lifts his glider until he feels it pull on his harness. Jeff is a master pilot.

And yeah, Jeff, I'm totally with you on signing jj off with the do-what-ever-the-fuck-you-want-just-prior-to-launch option.

Ken Howells - 2011/06/02 04:35:38 UTC
San Bernardino

Was this a Falcon? The Falcon hang loop has velcro on it. The 'short end' of the loop wraps over the keel and the other end goes through the loop in the short end. There is pile velcro sewn to the hang loop near the short end and a length of hook velcro extends toward the long end. The hook velcro goes though the short end with the long end of the hang loop and then is pulled back up and hooked to the pile velcro, to cinch the hang loop tight to the keel (and the anti-skid pad on top of the keel). I'll bet someone draped the hang loop over the keel and just ran the hook velcro through the loop in the short end.

Very scary! The velcro grip IS very strong when pulling parallel to the mated faces, much stronger than the force needed to peel them apart (perpendicular to the faces), which is why he got away with it for so long.

Matt Christensen - 2011/06/02 11:44:25 UTC

Yes, it was a Falcon.

Edit: Sometimes there are ways of seeing this.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/108332933@N05/10973539135/