landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24664
A difficult landing
Davis Straub - 2012/02/01 19:59:37 UTC

That is totally nuts. This is flying in laminar conditions at the beach. You are happy to stay up in these conditions dune gooning along the little bits of built up sand. If you want to come down, pull the bar in hard, keep you hands on the base tube. There is no reason to rock up at all. You want total control. You are only going to come in slow (relative to the ground) into soft sand. Better to keep facing into the wind.
But then he wouldn't have adequate roll authority - and he's pretty marginal as it is.
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:
Davis Straub - 2012/02/01 19:59:37 UTC

That is totally nuts. This is flying in laminar conditions at the beach. You are happy to stay up in these conditions dune gooning along the little bits of built up sand. If you want to come down, pull the bar in hard, keep you hands on the base tube. There is no reason to rock up at all. You want total control. You are only going to come in slow (relative to the ground) into soft sand. Better to keep facing into the wind.
But then he wouldn't have adequate roll authority - and he's pretty marginal as it is.
In case you missed it, I fixed it for you :D
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

1. Nah, I didn't miss it.

2. Neither Davis nor I were there and Davis can't tell what the air's doing any better than I can.

3. It probably IS pretty laminar.

4. But at 1:37 things are "interesting" and at that point it doesn't really matter whether they got that way through unlaminarity or not. To me it appears that he's not in better shape for being upright then or at any time prior or after.

5. I'm (holding my nose and) agreeing with Davis that at no time in that sequence is he better off upright and on the downtubes than he would have been prone on the basetube.

6. I think the best way to get the glider down on the beach and safely short of the surf would've been to stay prone, dive down tracking along the base of the dune, when low turn into the wind / perpendicular to the beach, hover down to the sand, and stay there with the bar pulled in until those guys grabbed my nose.

If you wanna really humiliate me... Show me a video in which I'm gonna say:
- a) "Whoa! Sure was a good thing that guy was upright and thus had adequate roll authority!"
or
- b) "Whoa! If only that guy had been upright he'd have had adequate roll authority!"
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

You still did not get it.

I am speaking of turbulent crosswind conditions.

Come fly at McClure on a turbulent northy day and land in the slot. I will give you a ride up. They have removed most of the rotor producing trees so it should be quite easy.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

On The Bob Show - 2011/11/15 - you posted this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtH2qZYWLrA


1. Until 0:57 he's still got both hands on the basetube.
2. At that point he goes left up.
3. One second after that he brings the right up.
4. Two seconds after being both on the downtubes he begins his flare.
5. And there's nothing going on roll-wise in that whopping three seconds of final when he doesn't have both hands on the basetube.

Thanks much for the offer of the ride up but I'm never gonna fly again. So just show me ONE video.

EVERYTHING I'm seeing and hearing - even from people I totally despise - is overwhelmingly indicating that, in belly/wheel friendly terrain, flying up you're at least twenty times more likely to crash and get hurt than flying down.

And damn near everything I'm seeing and hearing indicates that landings in belly/wheel unfriendly terrain are distinct rarities.
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

I will try to find one where they land in a cross wind. It will take some doing as I have a low tolerance for youtube hg.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Me too. That's why I asked you to do it.
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Here you go.
Upright for final and legs swinging form side to side.
The peanut gallery says conditions are northy
Enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7ZMfENk_0Y
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

My God!!! You're so totally right!!!

When he's prone with his hands on the basetube the glider's all over the sky! At one point it actually goes UPSIDE DOWN!!! And that's in clean air!

But when he's upright in trashy rotory air the glider stays PERFECTLY LEVEL!

The contrast is ASTOUNDING! I stand SO corrected.

But seriously, folks...

It's the same dude filmed by the same dude at the same place flying the same approach on a topless with a different paint job 117 days prior.

On both flights he rocks up before he's on final.

But THAT DOES *NOTHING* TO ALTER HIS CG and HIS HANDS STAY ON THE BASETUBE.

This time he goes right up at 1:16, left up a second later, begins his flare a second after that, and has his nose planted in another three seconds.

So from both hands on the basetube to flare initiation we're talking a whopping TWO seconds - one fewer than the other landing three months later.

I repeat...

NOBODY - high or low - goes upright for better roll authority.

When someone wants better roll authority the first thing he does is pull in. And when you're upright with your hands on the downtubes you can't pull in worth shit.

And that's why you see highly skilled flyers - like Brian here - minimizing their hands-on-the-downtubes time to what is necessary to flare and stop the glider.

And that's why you see really smart pilots - regardless of skill level - totally eliminating upright hands-on-the-downtubes time and letting the glider land when it wants to. If you wanna maximize the control and safety and minimize the difficulty of your landings...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
...stay prone with your hands on the basetube and put it down on the wheels whenever you're looking at suitable terrain.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings
Rod Murray - 2012/02/03 08:23:39 UTC

Jim, without stealing your thunder but to add to the great advice you have already written...

I was given a piece of advice years ago which I believe would solve a lot of pilots' misadventures during landings. It is: "Get that puppy down LOW into ground effect with speed."
You mean like everybody has always done in REAL aviation over the course of its entire history? DUDE!!! Who'da thunk!
I know when I am about to have a good landing. I have lots of speed, I am leaning forward slightly with my legs bent back a little, and the tops of my feet are brushing or nearly brushing the ground. This low you are really in ground effect, the forces acting on the wing are different here. Your wings stay level and you seem to slow down more before the flare window. (A word of caution, make sure you have good pitch authority and are ready to push out or flare at any time; treat the top of thick grass or crops as ground level, don't allow your base bar to contact this.)

Look at a lot of the videos of bad landings. Often the round out is too high, resulting in a wing being lifted by turbulence or the pilot slowing up too much to lose that extra bit of height. Popping up from this height is also likely to hurt more. Judging our round out without being affected by the ground rushing up on us is of paramount importance if we want to have successful landings.

Without ground effect I think we would all be landing on wheels, it is our savior, we should use it.
Can you IMAGINE the CARNAGE which would inevitably result if we all landed on WHEELS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zzMbdtOhAk
Before and After
Sparkozoid - 2011/11/27
dead
14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png
Image

Makes my skin crawl just thinking about it.
Robert Seckhold - 2012/02/03 11:49:34 UTC

Thanks Rod, an excellent point. For me and my first fifty hours or so you hit the nail on the head. I was rounding out too high, being afraid of the ground. I was then told come in faster so I started coming in faster BUT still rounded out too high and tried to float the glider in... big mistake. I used to wonder how people got such long sections of ground effect. I would seem to round out then plop onto the ground.

I was that panicky with my landings I had no memory of the last two to three seconds of any of my early landings. I would try and play back my landings in my mind and the memory would stop at my round out. Shows you how stubborn I was in not giving up even though for landing after landing I was in panic mode and it was more good luck than good judgment that got me down safely.

All good now though, due to my stubbornness and help from some mates.
What if you had just started out doing wheel landings and learned standup as you advanced to flying sites which required them?
Jim Rooney - 2012/01/21 04:49:59 UTC

You're diving at the earth (faster than trim) and flying the glider way down into ground effect... then you're maintaining height, often for as long as possible because passengers (and you) love it. It's fun as hell. Up hill, down hill, into wind, with the wind, cross wind... who cares? You're on wheels. Over and over and over.

You get very very very in tune with your glider.
Think maybe that the experience would've been a whole lot less panicky and more fun and productive before you moved on to learning an advanced, difficult, dangerous, and mostly unnecessary skill?
Jim Rooney - 2012/01/27 09:20:28 UTC

A while ago, I taught a student... from day one, to land on her wheels with absolutely zero intention of foot landing.
We do this all the time with aerotowing students.
So why not with hill students?

And I mean from day 1.
Yes, even the training hill flights.

Learn to fly.
Learn to not smash into the earth.
THEN, learn the hardest and most critical skill AFTER you're good at the rest.
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