1. Noman's an asshole.Glenn Zapien - 2008/03/10
Yes, noman is human. And I still think it was a bit too northy.
1. So you weren't landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?Davis Straub - 2012/02/02 02:00:20 UTC
It was basically nothing. I was landing at a very small private abandoned air strip cut out from the cactus.
1. So you were doing the Greblo moonwalk that your good buddy Rooney has given so much publicity lately.I had the glider coming in fast in ground effect. Let out the bar to trim, then was running to unload the glider instead of flaring and I just tripped, fell out straight with my arms straight out and nothing happened at all but the sharp pain in my shoulder.
Meaning you had NOTHING in the way of wheels. Not even those little placebo wheels that Wills Wing builds into a lot of its gliders which would probably have been just fine on that surface.The glider landed fine on its base bar.
Funny you haven't said a single word about the Greblo moonwalk on your good buddy Rooney's world famous landing thread.Davis Straub - 2012/02/03 01:06:11 UTC
My wings were level, I was coming in just fine, I had no premonition of a bad landing. I was running out the landing, maybe a couple of steps, as I unloaded the glider. I just tripped on flat ground, no obstacles and fell out straight with my hands in front of me, near the bottom of the down tubes. The glider landed just fine without any damage what so ever.
Landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place - and any other wheel unfriendly environments - is dangerous and you can count on people getting hurt doing it.NMERider - 2012/02/02 03:27:29 UTC
And this is exactly why I don't get too upset about sacrificing a downtube if I blow a landing. This is also the same way I got the worst injury I've ever sustained in this sport. A broken big toe. I was running out a landing when I should have flared hard. Instead I stubbed my toe on a rock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUqlgIxYOwk
A Tale of Two Lakes
NMERider - 2010/08/27
dead
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23199NMERider - 2010/08/10
So the entire time I'm on this twelve mile long glide I've got my eyes peeled for potential places to land where I'm not gonna trip - or even better yet, where I can land on those wheels.
NMERider - 2011/09/21 00:37:09 UTC
I dislike having anything in my field of view when I'm flying other than my instrument pod. That goes for bar mitts as well as wheels. I just don't want them.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3173Allen Sparks - 2012/02/02 23:08:13 UTC
I injured my shoulder last April. Two tendons: the supraspinatus tendon in the shoulder (it was repaired), and the biceps tendon, which couldn't be repaired). My surgery was about a week after my injury and the recovery is still ongoing.
I went through the standard progression from passive range of motion to assisted, etc., in twice weekly therapy sessions. I was in pain for most of that timeframe. Now, 9+ months later, no pain, full range of motion, and maybe 80% strength. It seemed like forever.
Allen Sparks - 2008/04/19 01:38:55 UTC
If accidents were 'somewhat predictable', I'd bet we would have fewer :)
_hit happens. There are no recipes that prevent it.
In the past, I've flown for many years with wheels. I used them (solo) once just to try them out. I always used them when flying tandem. A few times they saved me from a major whack. In retrospect, I tended to take my whacks less seriously, because the wheels 'saved' me from the embarrasment.
Here in the rocky Rockies, I don't have the luxury of landing on mostly-level grass-covered fields.
The guy who bought my U2 didn't want the WW wheels 0- said they were useless ... so I kept them and tried to put them on my Sport, but they would not fit ... without some serious grinding and modification. Our local truck tow operation gets some awesome airtime (16k stuff) and has a rig that is not compatible with the WW wheels, so ... rather than jam them on and risk not being able to remove them, I decided ... what the hey .. Sport 2s are easy to land ... and made the decision to fly without the wheels.
We don't really have much LZ terrain that is wheel-friendly around here. So I am wheel-less for the time being, until I decide to do something else. I can tell you that it makes me take my landings even more seriously.
A week ago, a new pilot to the area muffed an approach and transition to the uprights and ended up pounding in (without wheels) .. the noseplate nailed him squarely in the back of the helmet, but fortunately, without injury. I really doubt that wheels would have made any difference, unless they were monster 12" pneumatics.
I broke my humerous (badly) in 1989, with nerve damage. In that instance, wheels would not have made a difference.
Some times _hit is gonna happen. That is the only thing that is somewhat predictable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zzMbdtOhAkTad Eareckson - 2008/04/19 16:35:10 UTC
OK, since it seems that folk can't be bothered, lack the necessary skills, and/or are too fucking stupid to read what I said lemme start over.
First off - apologies. I toned down the subject line of this thread and made a misleading statement in my first post in response to the accident. Those were mistakes but I figured John was already feeling more than crappy enough about the afternoon and I didn't want to give the impression of rubbing anything in but, for the greater good...
The title shoulda read:
totally predictable crash at Highland
Note substitutions from the words "somewhat" and "accident".
and didn't refer to what happened as an "accident" or a case of shit just happening. (Guess you're REALLY taking your landings seriously now, huh?)I injured my shoulder last April.
Good start.Tad Eareckson wrote:My God!!! You're so totally right!!!
Oh noooooos, Tad has gone off on a tangent!Tad Eareckson wrote:When he's prone with his hands on the basetube the glider's all over the sky! At one point it actually goes UPSIDE DOWN!!! And that's in clean air!
Note to Tad: The topic is having more roll control being upright.Tad Eareckson wrote:But when he's upright in trashy rotory air the glider stays PERFECTLY LEVEL!
The contrast is ASTOUNDING! I stand SO corrected.
I will try to make this simple.Tad Eareckson wrote:But seriously, folks...
It's the same dude filmed by the same dude at the same place flying the same approach on a topless with a different paint job 117 days prior.
On both flights he rocks up before he's on final.
But THAT DOES *NOTHING* TO ALTER HIS CG and HIS HANDS STAY ON THE BASETUBE.
Tad Eareckson wrote:This time he goes right up at 1:16, left up a second later, begins his flare a second after that, and has his nose planted in another three seconds.
So from both hands on the basetube to flare initiation we're talking a whopping TWO seconds - one fewer than the other landing three months later.
I repeat...
NOBODY - high or low - goes upright for better roll authority.
Spoken like a pilot who flies at green circle sites with putting greens for lzs. May your air always be laminar and smooth.Tad Eareckson wrote:When someone wants better roll authority the first thing he does is pull in. And when you're upright with your hands on the downtubes you can't pull in worth shit.
Did you forget that he is upright?Tad Eareckson wrote:And that's why you see highly skilled flyers - like Brian here - minimizing their hands-on-the-downtubes time to what is necessary to flare and stop the glider.
May the lz always be a putting green with the grass having just been clipped, the ground having optimal water content and the air being smooth, laminar and in your face at about 14 knots.Tad Eareckson wrote:And that's why you see really smart pilots - regardless of skill level - totally eliminating upright hands-on-the-downtubes time and letting the glider land when it wants to. If you wanna maximize the control and safety and minimize the difficulty of your landings......stay prone with your hands on the basetube and put it down on the wheels whenever you're looking at suitable terrain.Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
I have known Noman for 10-12 years and watched him come up through the ranks. He is good people.Tad Eareckson wrote:1. Noman's an asshole.
Yep, but there was no damage so it was a good landing.Tad Eareckson wrote:2. The wind direction and intensity and turbulence had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with him planting his nose.
I know. But when he wants to have enough of it to turn the glider upside down he stays prone to get the requisite speed.Note to Tad: The topic is having more roll control being upright.
Yeah... And if he were fully prone would be more restricted / have less roll authority how?]See the glider. See the pilot. The pilot is upright. Yes, yes, yes, his hands are on the basetube. Look at the pilot's body. See the pilot's body move from side to side. His body is moving rapidly. See his legs move. They move outside of the control frame at times.
No, I'm fine. And I've got the video stored on my hard drive just in case.]Are you still with me? If not, go back and read the preceding paragraph a few times until you can picture the action in your mind.
Yes.]He is making roll corrections to the gusts and turbulence that are trying to turn his glider to the glider's left. Can these corrections be done prone? Yes, they can.
And how much less a thing of beauty would it be if he stayed prone and rolled in like a sailplane?]There is a pilot that does the approach prone with a diving/slipping turn, downwind, base and final all in a curving arc, goes upright and lands. It is an approach and landing of beauty.
Yeah, sometimes when you add demands of skill and complexity to a procedure in an attempt to achieve beauty the results end up being the precise opposite. That's why on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I put my pants on ONE leg at a time.]The fellow that crashed in the trees was trying to do that.
So Andy hooking the starboard tail wire wasn't really an issue?]All the picayune arguments about hand position blah blah are wrong.
How big time would he likely have blown the approach if he had stayed prone?]He blew the approach big time.
Christian Thoreson and Jayne DePanfilis advise them to stay down until after they roll to a stop.]The first pilot advises all pilots to go upright early.
1. Being upright well above ground turbulence can cause fatal crashes - and has.]Making the transition close to the ground in turbulence can cause crashes.
Me to. And I've also had a lot of bonks, crashes, and broken downtubes that I wouldn't have had I remained prone and bellied in.]BTDT.
Wish you had told me that BEFORE I took a spoonful.]It's not ice cream.
1. The time is NOT compressed.]In the video, time and space are compressed.
Yeah... And Brian deals with it without heroic efforts just fine with both hands on the basetube.]The base leg is done about at about 80 yards out from the camera. There is a lot of distance for shit to happen.
1. I'm not QUOTING milliseconds. I'm looking at the same video clock and numbers that you are and citing them.]Quoting milliseconds to bolster your arguments is disingenuous.
Yeah? Well looking at Brian - the best example you've been able to come up with to date...]Spoken like a pilot who flies at green circle sites with putting greens for lzs.
Thanks, but - 'cept for dune flying - I despise laminar and smooth air.]May your air always be laminar and smooth.
What does altitude hafta do with it?]When close to the ground, and your wing tip gets popped up, Pull the wing tip down and pull in SIMULTANEOUSLY.
1. Why?]Much easier and more effective when upright.
No. I don't know why you're asking that question. He wants to flare and stop the glider - being upright is the only way he can do that.]Did you forget that he is upright?
Yeah, I can live with that - ignoring the environmental implications anyway.]May the lz always be a putting green with the grass having just been clipped...
Optimal for what? For flying I like it baked - but I don't like seeing the ecosystem trashed to benefit my recreational flying.]...the ground having optimal water content...
On the dunes - perfect.]...and the air being smooth, laminar and in your face at about 14 knots.
You're totally entitled to that opinion. And on some scores you could well be right.]I have known Noman for 10-12 years and watched him come up through the ranks. He is good people.
]I know a number of people who you have described in very derisive and denigrating terms. When you are wrong about people I know, it makes me wonder about the others that I do not know.
Great.Tad Eareckson - 2011/11/18 14:07:50 UTC
I don't really want anyone who DOESN'T doubt everything I say participating in this forum.
Great. I think the more time we spend wondering about everything and everyone the more likely we are to wind up on right pages.]It also makes me wonder about you.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=129499]dont be a fag
...and gets fatally locked out and slammed in... and I get a comment like:]if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before you can get into too much trouble...
while I'm trying to discuss the incident and maybe prevent another one like it, there's gonna be a price for that one as well.Brian Horgan - 2009/11/01 17:18:06 UTC
if you dont fly then shut the fuk up.
Can't tell whether or not you're joking on that one but I'll go with the latter 'cause in hang gliding that DOES seem to be the definition of a good landing.]Yep, but there was no damage so it was a good landing.
...you're gonna break a lot of downtubes and arms. And nothing's EVER gonna change that.Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Dirt. (No brainer.)NMERider - 2012/02/03 01:06:35 UTC
George you are correct. Hanging on with both hands can probably do some serious current or residual damage whether downtubes break or not.
It's like this for me--before I was back into hang gliding I rode mountain bikes and later I rode road bikes and then racing recumbent road bikes. One thing I learned was never allow yourself to hit the pavement or the dirt (take your pick)...
You mean the way it shows you to have them at the most dangerous instant of flight since takeoff on Page 35 of the Wills Wing T2 Owner's Manual?...with your arms outstretched or extended.
If you had never touched the downtubes in the course of the approach would you have pancaked the landings?All manner of bad stuff will happen to your body. I knew right away that Wills Wing Litestream and Slipstream 2 downtubes were engineered to break before bones. I also learned that they fail gradually and absorb a lot of energy over a large linear distance while they fail. OTOH, the ground has very little yield and so the deceleration goes into bones and connective tissue.
I have done pancake landings during XC where I pulled my arms in and never touched the downtubes.
Great. But...As my body jerked against the harness/hangstrap, the force was transmitted to the downtubes, fully buckling one and bowing the other. No injury to me or any other part of the glider. Other blown landings did not allow me to safely ball up or let go and swing through so I used one downtube to absorb the force. Goodbye downtube but no injury to me or other damage to the glider.
Going back twenty years, I understand the Attack downtubes were a different story. Several years ago when I was picking up parts at Wills Wing. I walked up to Steve and extended my (fully intact) arm and said let me shake your hand. Quizzically, he asked me why I was thanking him and I replied that it was for engineering downtubes that saved my bones and ligaments. I told him how much I appreciated this and the R&D and tooling expense that Wills Wing must have incurred in the process. Steve went on to tell me how many pilots were too cheap to replace broken (engineered) downtubes and switched back to the much stronger Attack downtubes. The result was a decrease in broken downtubes and increase in spiral fractures and other injuries.
1. Just 'cause an injured cyclist is asking about his bike doesn't necessarily mean he interceded with his body to prevent it from being damaged.Does any of this sound familiar? I wasn't there but I have experience similar to this in cycling. The rider will sacrifice his body in order to save his precious bicycle. Ask any paramedic who schlepped an injured cyclist to the E/R. They'll tell you about the large number of crippled riders whose first question is: "How's my bike?". A local Crestline pilot who loves to tease me about my antics bragged about never breaking a downtube. On further questioning he disclosed that he had bone fractures instead.
2. Same with people and their gliders.Scott Wilkinson - 2005/06/02 16:16:05 UTC
Holly also began expressing much greater interest in her accident. She asked me to describe to her in detail what happened, so I did the best I could based on what Steve Wendt described to me. The great thing to see was her mind working well enough and clearly enough that she completely understood all the techno-flying aspects of the discussion (weak link, 45-degree cross, getting thermally, etc.) Even more amazing, she remembered a few details of her setup for launch just prior to the accident. (Before this, she didn't even remember being at Blue Sky---parts of it are clearly returning, though I don't expect she'll remember the accident itself any time soon.)
Holly began showing very faint signs of blaming herself for the accident, which I immediately swept away. She wasn't distraught or upset, but glumly said "I can't believe I did such a boneheaded thing." I told her FORGET IT! It was an accident, period, and it could have happened to any of us. She asked about the glider, and was visibly saddened when I told her the Litesport was totaled.
1. That's a big start on the problem.I'm somewhat clumsy and I know it.
There's a reason that nobody foot launches behind a Dragonfly.Some days I'm just going to pound in unless I can run like a cheetah.
The more confident you feel that you can avoid a needless event like the one that injured Davis' shoulder the more likely you are to experience a needless event like the one that injured Davis' shoulder.But I don't always land in such well-groomed places so I need to know how to take an impact. Dave Hopkins wrote a wonderful tome on the art of letting your glider take the beating when you know you're going in.
In light of my declining coordination and physical condition, I snatched up that Sensor 610 F3 152 from the OR classifieds a month a go. It really is a lot more forgiving than my T2 C 144 when I come in to land and still gives me satisfying flights. So I have been willing to switch to easier equipment until I feel confident that I can avoid more needless events like the one that injured Davis' shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTa6XL16i0UI hope his surgery goes well and he's back in the ring. I enjoyed flying against him at SCFR and if I'm lucky I'll be able to fly with him and other highly skilled pilots in the future.
Evidence that narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place may not be the glider landing Utopias many of us have been lead to believe.Joe Greblo - 2008/08/30 03:40:21 UTC
Jeff Craig was killed today when he crashed on approach to landing near the Kagel LZ. The accident occurred at around 15:20 during a low approach into the wash LZ. He struck a boulder in the riverbed and sustained serious injuries. Club members arrived on scene quickly and Alex Wright and Foster Winter administered CPR until paramedics arrived. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
The exact cause of the accident is not known as some witnesses said that it appeared that Jeff simply did not let the bar out as he toward the rocks. It was estimated that he hit at over 30 mph by one Hang Four witness.
BULLSHIT.George Stebbins - 2012/02/06 19:45:54 UTC
And also note that the largest cause of death from impact in hang gliding is head/neck/chest injuries. You don't die when you hit your legs and/or hips...
Yet another reason to have feet down and moving (or ready to move.)
Very true.Tad Eareckson wrote:BULLSHIT.George Stebbins - 2012/02/06 19:45:54 UTC
And also note that the largest cause of death from impact in hang gliding is head/neck/chest injuries. You don't die when you hit your legs and/or hips...
Yet another reason to have feet down and moving (or ready to move.)
- People don't get fatal head/neck/chest injuries because they're not coming down with their feet down and ready to move.
- People get fatal head/neck/chest injuries because they come down totally out of control. They stall, get trashed by turbulence, shears, and rotors, get turned downwind, clip trees, and lock out.
20 times more? Shiiiiiiiiiizzzzzaaaaaaaym! and Good Gooly Miss Molly for good measure. Care provide some links that would back up this declaration?Tad Eareckson wrote:3. You're about twenty times more likely to stall, get trashed by turbulence, shears, and rotors, get turned downwind, clip trees, and lock out if you're upright with your hands on the downtubes than you are prone with your hands on the basetube.
I guess you are using the transitive property of equality here. Show me your links for the 20 times and then this can be true. OtherwiseTad Eareckson wrote:- Therefore you're about twenty times more likely to get killed if you're upright with your hands on the downtubes than you are prone with your hands on the basetube.
Lets go back to numbers one and two for a quick review. I'm a poet and don't even know itTad Eareckson wrote:- You're also about twenty times more likely to break an arm or two if you're upright with your hands on the downtubes than you are prone with your hands on the basetube - even though you've executed everything flawlessly right up to the final couple of seconds.
According to the above pronouncements, the glider is now totally out of control. no?Tad Eareckson wrote:- People don't get fatal head/neck/chest injuries because they're not coming down with their feet down and ready to move.
- People get fatal head/neck/chest injuries because they come down totally out of control. They stall, get trashed by turbulence, shears, and rotors, get turned downwind, clip trees, and lock out.
AHHHHHHHH, to always land on a putting green, with the Bud lite girls to help put the glider awayTad Eareckson wrote:6. So upright with your hands on the downtubes is lose/lose, dude.
- There's a REASON the best foot landers only spend about three seconds at the end of their finals in ground effect upright with fewer than two hands on the basetube.
8. And the batting averages of the best foot landers suck in comparison to any mediocre wheel lander.
