2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

TheFjordflier · Post by **TheFjordflier** » 2016/08/20 19:03:31 UTC

I don't get it.
How can they put the blame on a student?
A H1?
I sympathize with this Ziggy person.
What a rotten culture/system.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/21 10:51:28 UTC

Yeah.

- Whenever someone survives a flight reasonably unscathed the operators chalk it up to their high quality program.

- But when they snap an arm or two on a Day One student as a consequence of crap instruction, equipment, procedures, conditions it's all individual pilot error / shit happens in this inherently dangerous extreme sport.

Yeah, a rotten culture/system that's irreversibly going down the toilet. Can't even remember when there were glimmers of decency here and there.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Steve Corbin - 2016/08/19 18:59:49 UTC

How many pilots have to die as a result of The Lockout?

Just the ones who are convinced they can maintain total control authority in worst case scenarios with one hand. So only about 99 percent of them.

It's insane to keep insisting that a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft can be towed safely.

Why? The sport has been insisting since Day One that our purely weight-shift controlled aircraft can be free flown safely at takeoff and landing upright with our hands at shoulder or ear height where we can't control the glider.

The only aircraft that should be considered acceptable for towing are those that have demonstrated the ability to recover from any attitude while being towed.

1. Only those aircraft to whom the laws of physics mean NOTHING.

2. So how come it's OK to free fly hang gliders? They're only certified for sixty degree bank and thirty degree nose up or down pitch. They get tumbled in free flight. Sometimes they get parachutes out, sometimes they don't.

It simply amazes me that every time we have a towing accident...

I've never heard of a towing accident.

...the conversation always ends up focused on releasing...

And never on equipping the pilot to be able to release SAFELY.

...or on the merits or deficits of any particular release mechanism.

The mechanism itself - never the actuation system. 'Cause Western hang gliding doesn't believe in actuation systems.

Anytime a pilot being towed has to release before the normal time should be a red flag warning that we have a serious equipment deficiency that needs fixing.

Get fucked, Steve.

- On extremely rare occasions someone who knows how to fly a hang glider will need to abort an aerotow - virtually never down in the kill zone where the thermals tend not to be blasting very fast, virtually always at an altitude at which nothing matters where they do. And sometimes the shit happens so fast that you're gonna have about a second or two to blow the tow before whatever you're using for a weak link does it for you. Pretty much never happens on surface tow.

- Wanna see a serious equipment deficiency?

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png

That doesn't need fixing. That IS the fix. That's the evolutionary progression from:

01-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

Our problem isn’t too LITTLE control authority on tow. It's too MUCH. We have tons of it to totally squander.

Get back to me after we've maxed out our potential and are still killing people.

Nobody says a word about lockouts, or our susceptibility to getting locked out while flying a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft.

We aren't trying hard enough. We're just like the Pg crowd, trading safety and performance for convenience. The form may be different but the content is the same.

Yeah, I'm just a cranky old curmudgeon. But I'm right.

Sure ya are, Steve. 'Specially on forums on which the voices that can keep you in check have been silenced.

Steve Morris - 2016/08/19 19:54:05 UTC

I will sheepishly admit I'm in agreement with these sentiments. Why sheepishly? Because the current crop of HG pilots tends to be at the upper level of the experience scale (older and pre-sorted by the Darwinian nature of what we do) and gets away with all sorts of stuff that a lesser experienced group would not.

Tell me just how Zack Marzec fits into that hypothesis.

To some extent this masks the difficulties of flying an aircraft with non-standard stability and control issues in a challenging flight mode, i.e. towing a weight shift flex wing. In one of the towing accident threads I suggested considering the mandatory use of fixed vertical surface on all towed gliders but that was not well accepted.

Yeah, we need to have comments like these in the context of what happened at Tres Pinos.

All I can say is that I'm impressed by all the flex wing pilots who've managed to tow safely for so long.

And let's not be so quick to discount the other 99.9 percent who tow all the time on total crap equipment and have gotten away with it for as long as they have.

I've never towed a flex wing and don't plan to try it, I've only towed in a aerodynamically controlled rigid wing and that's challenging enough for me.

Did you ever try to make it less challenging by mandating a fixed vertical surface for yourself. Boy do I love all these fixes we get from people who don't tow and are totally fucking clueless as to what the actual problems and solutions - existing and flying - are.

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/19 20:16:31 UTC
Re: Lockouts, PLEASE READ before everyone jumps farther down the rabbit hole

Nah Ryan, let's venture down the rabbit hole a bit. That's the area in which you really start to shine.

What is towing? Towing is just hang gliding with a rope attached.*

In other words powered unpowered flight. Thanks Ryan, most helpful in bringing our understanding up to speed.

What is a lockout? It's the result of inadequate lateral control (IE flying away from the rope)**

1. "LATERAL" control? What the fuck is that? Three flavors of control for a fixed wing aircraft - pitch, roll, yaw. Throw out yaw. For all intents and purposes hang glider pilots don't have yaw control - just stability.

2. How 'bout PITCH control. Ever hear of an...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

FATAL TOWING ACCIDENT

What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious. He encountered so much lift that although he was pulling in the base bar as far as he could, he did not have enough pitch-down control to get the nose down and return to proper position behind the tug. This situation is known as an over-the-top lockout.

I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas.

...over-the-top lockout? Like the one that very predictably killed Zack Marzec...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

...at Quest three and a half years ago? You know, the accident in which we'll probably never really know what happened? The one that prompted everybody to suddenly become happy with Tad-O-Links?

The definition of a lockout is any situation in which misalignment is such that the tow is not sustainable - dickhead.

The nitty-gritty:
* Yes I know there are a lot more complicated physics and variables introduced with towing, and in a literal sense it's not exactly "just hang gliding with a rope attached".

And the basic physics of hang glider control - free flight, let alone towing - are so absurdly far outta your league that you should've shut the fuck up long before you ever opened your mouth on this one.

But the similarities are overwhelming in terms of what the pilot needs to do while being towed.

There's a limit to what the pilot can do while being towed. Also while free flying.

** This doesn't take into account the REASON for that lack of lateral control. Was it that the glider's limited roll control was overpowered by conditions?

Not in this case.

Was it flawed technique/response by the pilot, like cross-controlling or something?

In other words, towing a pilot who isn't.

The reasons for losing control of the aircraft can be many...

No. Assuming the person being towed is a pilot... conditions and mismanagement of tension and/or direction at the other end of the rope.

My point is- just as you guys have (I feel, correctly) pointed out the focus needs to step back away from what the release setup was...

Yeah, we don't wanna look at any release setups too closely. All these operations use total shit they refer to as state-of-the-art and if any one of them were to use something that DIDN'T stink on ice the collapse of the Ponzi scheme would be dangerously accelerated.

I think we need to continue stepping back until we are seeing a more complete picture...

Yeah, let's keep stepping back until we can no longer see what it was we were looking at. Then the discussion will die and we can start a new one on how to better perfect our flare timing.

...and examine WHY was there such a dramatic need to release in an emergency situation (lockout).

A Hang One who was thrown into a situation way the fuck over her head and equipped with total state-of-the-art shit plus a Tad-O-Link that didn't break when it was supposed to. (Notice the less than zero interest in what was being used for a weak link? In bygone days the discussion would've been about nothing other than the weak link strength.)

Why are pilots locking out, I guess you could say?

*PILOTS* AREN'T.

- Nancy was a STUDENT her last experience was SUPPOSED TO BE a training exercise.

- Jeff Bohl was one of those cool pro toad dudes who didn't need no pussy upper attachment point / certified glider and was totally capable of doing anything he needed to on tow with one hand flying the glider. Total fucking dope on a rope.

Steve Morris - 2016/08/19 19:54:05 UTC

All I can say is that I'm impressed by all the flex wing pilots who've managed to tow safely for so long.
I read this, and to me it sounds like you are basically saying "I am impressed by all the flex wing pilots that are able to control pitch and roll with at least enough rough precision so as to not get way out of alignment with the tow line/force and enter a lockout".

I do not mean to put words in your mouth Steve- but that's how *I* read that... because honestly, isn't that all the pilot must do to never get into a lockout situation?

No, asshole.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

In good thermal conditions Mother Nature can end a tow any time she feels like it. But of course you have neither any towing experience nor the ability to read so REAL world towing scenarios are totally beyond your grasp.

But we have NEVER crashed a PILOT *ONCE* in a low level lockout situation like the one Bill described Dennis and others experiencing at altitude. Solid Two level competency, halfway competent or better driver, rolling launch, two point bridle, release that doesn't stink, Tad-O-Link, halfway sane or better conditions... We're BULLETPROOF. We can handle a surprise thermal or dust devil. And NOBODY can cite an incident which indicates otherwise.

Last three US fatalities were all towing and all shoddy fringe activities which you u$hPa pigfuckers have made mainstream.

P.S. Everybody be sure to note Ryan's total absence from all of the Zack Marzec discussions.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/21 15:11:44 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Rodger Hoyt - 2016/08/19 21:15:29 UTC

USHPA historically has given priority to hang gliding businesses, likely because the Ass. believes it will generate more new students, members, dollars. The BOD has traditionally been comprised predominantly of hang gliding business owners.

And their brown-nosers.

ziggyc - 2016/08/19 22:54:58 UTC

So some folks believe I am angry and frustrated. Correct.

Welcome to the club.

Some folks believe I am ready to blame everyone and everything for Nancy's death. That would be an accurate assessment. I am clearly not a pilot.

That's OK. Neither are Pat and Ryan.

I have zero experience in the air. I only know what I read, what I've seen, and what I've been told. I have no further venom to throw at the page because, as some people point out, trolling is about as unattractive as one can be on the internet.

Trolling. Writing anything anywhere on the web that another individual doesn't want written.

I was aware of this when I posted my rant. I know there's a confrontational element in my posts. I don't expect any forgiveness for that.

Forgiveness for what?

The thread had gone silent.

They all do. Hang glider people have the attention spans of puppies. And when they don't go silent on their own...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 13:48:47 UTC

Really sick of this bombastic, grandstanding, arguing style I come to my own forum each day and get pissed off. Time to end this.

I felt that this tragedy warranted at least a bit more discussion. I take nothing personally about anything that was thrown back at me. I expected it.

And that's a reason to take nothing personally? I take EVERYTHING *PERSONALLY* and don't hesitate to retaliate PERSONALLY. This game is all about individuals and character. Too bad 'cause it SHOULD BE all about Newtonian physics.

My goal is to stimulate conversation.Through your often thoughtful discussion of the activities involved...

Must've missed it. Maybe you could quote something.

...it becomes more clear the kind of activity Nancy and many other beginning/intermediate pilots participate in.

You skipped "novice". That was the rating for which Nancy didn't survive her training long enough to qualify.

It becomes clear that there are situations that arise that a more experienced pilot can deal with, but are totally new to a beginner.

Duh.

I also continue to see a divide in philosophy as to whether an H1 should be towing, or rather, what level of experience should be attained before towing.

Zero. Towing can be and is taught to total newcomers more safely than hill launching.

The involvement of law enforcement in all kinds of tragedies seems to be diminished.

You can thank u$hPa and general corruption for that.

My assumption was that since someone had died, like, the police would be all over it.

Depends a lot on...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

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...visibility.

Wrong. Law enforcement only gets involved when there's a crime committed.

1. In hang gliding - a VISIBLE crime. 'Specially one involving a...

...cute little person of a varying age. And do you think for a nanosecond that Kelly Harrison would've gotten a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card the way Pat did if Arys had taken all the impact and Kelly had walked away smelling like a rose?

2. They also get to decide a lot on when there's a crime committed. What's the difference between Jon Orders fatally slamming a chick in from a thousand feet by failing to connect her to the glider and Pat Denevan fatally slamming a chick in from three hundred feet by putting her up on a glider he didn't qualify and equip her to control? What's the difference between Jon Orders swallowing the video card and Pat Denevan and Mitch Shipley:

ziggyc - 2016/08/18 22:08:22 UTC

...the scene was very quickly cleared so as to make it look like nothing had happened.

ziggyc - 2016/08/19 00:28:55 UTC

I have approached several witnesses online (nicely, mind you) and received no response. That tells me someone (Mitch) got to them first and hushed them up.

The motivation and intent is IDENTICAL - cover-up, obstruction of justice.

Police in LA no longer take reports for auto accidents unless someone has to go to the hospital. So I extended that theory and assumed that would be the case at Tres Pinos, too. I found out that wasn't the case.

Would've been if she'd had a name or a face or if some wuffo had posted a video that went half as viral as:

163-20728
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8655/16487364578_83864d7bac_o.png

And remember the Mission response on that one. Entirely the fault of the stupid irresponsible student (and to switch to even more state-of-the-art towing equipment).

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/21 16:46:06 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Steve Morris - 2016/08/19 22:55:15 UTC

Ryan,

It comes down to the skill needed to control the aircraft.

Bull fucking shit. There is no SKILL involved in towing hang gliders. Basic up/down/left/right stuff to keep the glider in position.
Up/Down is Hang One level, Left/Right is Two. Nancy was only qualified as a ONE.

The chance that a nominal pilot...

...using a nominal weak link...

...can achieve this level of control is in direct proportion to the handling qualities of the aircraft itself.

Bull fucking shit. You either know how to fly a hang glider or you don't. And THIS:

ziggyc - 2016/08/18 22:08:22 UTC

The "story" is that Nancy may have turned away from the line without disconnecting, which directly led to her being killed. Well, this is not the entire truth.
...
...she plummeted 300 plus feet to the ground...

is the best information we have on the incident and it's plausible and conspicuously disputed by NO ONE.

The air was smooth because Pat wouldn't be pulling a One to altitude if it weren't. It says "Nancy may have turned away from the line..." NOT "Nancy may have BEEN turned away from the line..."

She was on a two-string release which is a total piece o' SHIT...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Scott Howard - 2014/11/06 16:06:31 UTC

...the best i can do for now is a clip of the day b4 when i told the instructor about release problem. (still released by normal method but had to yank 3 times on release to get it to release.)

...as is well documented for the Mission towing operation itself.

So she topped out at the target altitude - at which point Pat had already smoothly eased back on the tension - stupidly just yanked the easily reachable state-of-the-art two-string lanyard just ONE time, stupidly assumed her state-of-the-art two-string release had actually WORKED, then turned downwind to perfect her spot landing and flare timing skills...

10-2020
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1669/26425524185_42ceedf1e9_o.png

...at the old Frisbee back at launch.

Pat, of course, was immediately aware of the problem and immediately freewheeled the winch - which we know from recent past experience:

109-15221
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is NOT sufficient to return the glider to anything reasonably close to free flight mode - 'specially when flying mostly straight back away from the winch with way more line still out than Lin had.

So now Nancy knows she's fucked, can't afford to make another easy reach to the lanyard, and is in total pilot mode doing what she can to live as long as possible - exactly like Hang Four pro toad comp and hotshot airline pilot Jeff Bohl was on his last excursion effort at Quest. And hell, while he was killed instantly she wasn't even declared dead until the following day. Prior to that she was just brain dead and thus not in that much worse shape than Pat and the rest of the Mission crew.

This is EXACTLY what happened and you can take that to the fuckin' bank. And even if it's off there's no way in hell that a witness is ever gonna tell anybody it's wrong and why.

And note that Pat didn't have a guillotine and didn't cut the towline and that she might have come out of this one totally unscathed if he HAD.

The formalization of this idea is the Cooper-Harper scale shown below.

Oh joy. If only Pat and Nancy had known about the Cooper-Harper scale shown below.

I'm estimating that a flex wing hang glider on tow would not rate higher than Cooper Harper level 6 (1 is the best, 10 is the worst) from a test pilot's point of view, and this level is categorized as "deficiencies warrant improvement". The lack of inherent stability on tow (i.e constant corrective input required even in calm conditions) and the possibility of flight regimes where control authority approaches zero or a non recoverable divergence occurs (i.e. "lock-out") further highlight this point for weight shift flex wing gliders.

My point is that we can make towing safer for everyone by improving the flex wing's handling qualities on tow.

And learning to fly with one hand for the really critical situations.

The first step is to admit that deficiencies exist.

Get fucked.

For a more technical analysis, this reference is a good starting point, but I can't find a free download version:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/collected-researches-on-the-stability-of-kites-and-towed-gliders/oclc/252082771

Gawd how I despise all you useless goddam Jack and Davis Show motherfuckers.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/21 20:36:29 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Brian Scharp - 2016/08/20 00:03:29 UTC

Good luck, you're talking to someone who thinks flex wings will follow the direction they're being pulled.

Get Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney back on here. He thinks that if a 914 Dragonfly pulls a pro toad through the control frame the glider will pitch down and nose in.

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/20 02:47:50 UTC

Steve,

Totally agree- we have pretty lackluster control in comparison to most other flying things. When, in any small general aviation aircraft, does one *have* to perform a full control input just to maintain heading or desired bank? How many 40 year old Cessnas and Pipers out there have never had the yoke turned full-stop while in flight?

Show me some videos of two point AT pilots making full-stop inputs down in the kill zone. Hell, show me some videos of two point AT pilots making full-stop inputs ANYWHERE during the tow. AT lockouts induced by anything other than bozos lacking the Hang 1.5 basic roll control skills plus basic ability to follow a tug are totally nonexistent in the YouTube Universe.

But hang gliders are different. 'Tis what it is.

Yeah, hang gliders are different. We can't just apply the physics and procedures of conventional fixed wing aviation to hang gliders 'cause they're weight shift controlled and designed to land only in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. And in towing conventional gliders use weak links to protect the aircraft against overloading and releases to release the glider in normal and emergency situations while hang gliders use weak links to break before you can get into too much trouble because they use releases that can't be used after the glider gets into any trouble whatsoever.

But that introduces a concept, pointing to where most losses of control arise... is it the fault of the aircraft for the amount of roll it can generate... or does it become the fault of the pilot for flying that aircraft into conditions or situations beyond it's limitations.

1. I dunno... Let's take a look at a recent one:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.

This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?

Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC

EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.

But of course this never happens when you make the easy reach to your...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Zack C - 2012/03/14 05:29:01 UTC

And if you're just approaching a lockout, taking a hand off the bar could be the very thing that puts you into a lockout.

...easily reachable release.

2. The only purpose for which a qualified pilot tows a hang glider is to get to workable altitude in soarable conditions. Thus ALL pilots fly the aircraft into conditions that may instantly and without warning become well beyond ITS (no apostrophe) limitations. That's why we need to use weak links to protect our aircraft against overloading, releases that don't stink on ice, and bridles that keep the glider in its certified relationship with pilot position.

We all know that the more soarable it gets, the less reliable the conditions become from a safety standpoint. Landing at 1 or 2 pm in the spring, in a hot dry desert- say, like the Owens Valley- the chances or encountering conditions that are beyond your control (regardless of how skilled you may be).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

But all your stupid landing clinics are about flying with your hands at shoulder or ear height...

089-33215
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...where you can't control the glider.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I'm pointing all of this out because, A) it's the responsibility of the pilot to recognize and respect the limitations of his or her aircraft...

1. Also the responsibility of the Hang One student to recognize and respect the limitations of his or her instructor, tow driver, tow system, and crappy equipment he or she has been issued or sold.

2. With dickheaded u$hPa instructors putting out rot like:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

God I love the ignore list

Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.

I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

3. In other words, nobody should ever tow in soaring conditions.

...and B) what you're talking about is the same be it towing or traditional flying.

1. Right. Like in both free flying and towing whenever you find yourself in a critical situation at low altitude your first response should be to let go of the bar with one hand and make an easy reach for something. And in both free flying and towing there's no other individual controlling the forces on and control inputs to your glider. It's just you, your glider, and Mother Nature. And anyone who doesn't agree with those principles doesn't need to be involved in our sport.

2. TRADITIONAL flying? Slope launched hang gliding evolved out of boat towing.

To suggest we maybe shouldn't tow... but flying around is all fine and dandy... I personally fail to see the logic in dividing the two.

OK, we'll just add that to the long list of things in which you fail to see the logic - like Newtonian physics.

Towing is, like I said earlier, just hang gliding with a rope attached.

To your control system. With a weak link of several hundred pounds to make sure you can't get into too much trouble. What's the worst that could happen?

We're getting dangerously close to the discussions hang glider pilots have about paragliders It's always blame being levied on the aircraft as inferior or unairworthy, because in any kind of active conditions it requires constant pilot input...

...except, of course, while making the easy reach to your Industry Standard release...

...to fly with what most consider an acceptable level of safety. Sound familiar?

Boy do you sound familiar, motherfucker. And don't think for a nanosecond that I don't know EXACTLY what your Industry Standard game is and how you're playing it.

Steve Morris - 2016/08/19 22:55:15 UTC

The lack of inherent stability on tow (i.e constant corrective input required even in calm conditions)...
But again, I have to suggest you strike the "on tow" from your statement. For reasons I am sure *YOU* of all people understand- weight shift flex wing hang gliders MUST be designed with a certain level of instability in them, primarily/specifically in roll.

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

Yep.

The design of the glider, or it's stability, don't magically change when on tow (you know that Steve!)

So did Jeff Bohl in his final few seconds of life.

But again I will be clear in saying I don't quite agree (although don't particularly disagree either) that there's some massive unacceptable flaw in hang glider handling characteristics.

Fuckin' dickheads such as yourself preventing us from getting any problems fixed.

A comparison may be... driving a car down the highway. You can let go of the steering wheel, and nothing dramatic happens. It might even track straight and give the illusion of "stability" for a bit... but after a while, it's bound to wander to the left or to the right. Is this an inherent design flaw in the vehicle? I say no.

And now let's take out the windshield, clamp a cable to the top of the steering wheel, disable the power steering, and tow the car on a curvy mountain road to simulate hang glider towing.

If the vehicle wanders far enough, it is going to strike a median, a guardrail, or go off the road and hit whatever might be over there... isn't this akin to a lockout?

No motherfucker. See above. You're not even towing the car by one of its tow rings for your totally bogus analogy.

If the glider wanders, and is allowed to continue wandering, there is a point where it goes from easily recoverable to bad deal in a hurry.

1. Yeah. It might run into the median strip.

2. So what you're saying, you miserable lying little shit, is that you can't be flying dead center in Dr. Trisa Tilletti's bogus Cone of Safety, get hit by a bullet thermal, and find yourself on your fuckin' ear before you can blink - the way some of us who operate in the REAL world have from time to time.

I guess what I'm trying to say-

...is the same sort of disinformation rot Pat Denevan would be saying if posting here wouldn't open him up to cross-examination.

...and what got me posting here again despite my efforts to avoid the forum dynamic...

You're back here to do damage control for u$hPa.

...and the mysery...

The word you coined to define a combination of mystery and misery.

...it brings me LOL-

...is the common theme in taking responsibility.

All the Hang One student and never the motherfucker who put her at three hundred feet on total shit equipment with no way to zero the tension from his end EITHER.

First the significant other's post about Nancy, where he takes away that which pilots often hold quite dear: We have great freedom in that we are responsible for ourselves.

Suck my dick, Ryan.

He touches on all the reasons Nancy would stand up and say "this was my fault, guys", if only she had survived.

1. Yeah Ryan. You know that fer sure. No fuckin' way would she be thinking on feeling along the lines of what her significant other is.

2. And let's not look at the model of Shannon Hamby - who was VERY badly injured as a result of very clear gross negligence by one of u$hPa's money factories and sued our national organization half outta existence.

3. She might have. Pilot types tend to blame themselves for any and all bad stuff that happens to them. We can look at the Holly Korzilius fiasco as a model. But we who've been in this aviation game for a few decades and understand the bullshit these money factories and the national organization play know WAY better. No Nancy. This was 100.00 percent NOT YOUR FAULT.

And then these posts about how towing is unsafe... or at least towing hang gliders is unsafe...

All from the people who are way to smart to have ever towed themselves.

...such statements relieve the pilot of their responsibility in the choices they make.

Anybody care to start a petition of Threes and up stating that responsibility for keeping Nancy safe on three hundred foot tows was THIS:

http://www.hang-gliding.com/about/staff

Owner Pat Denevan is a leader in the development of modern hang gliding training standards and the USHGA Instructor Certification Program. In 2001, he received the United States Hang Gliding Association's instructor of the year award.

guy's...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/05/11
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
06. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H1)
-C. Recommended Operating Limitations for Beginner Pilots flying solo:

02. It is highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a USHPA Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor.

...and not Nancy's?

- If it's highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a u$hPa Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor does the u$hPa Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor get a free pass when she finishes her fourth flight brain dead and is fully dead the following day?

- Remember when Steve Parson - who had previously scored a manslaughter conviction for dropping an unhooked passenger in New Zealand - got all of his tickets shredded by HPAC after sending Marvin Trudeau on 2010/08/18 into conditions he didn't survive? Remember the way no one was leaping to his defense and spewing the kind of total rot that Ryan is?

- And many of us - 'specially from this neck of the woods - can remember what total hell it was to advance to high sites and Hang Threes 'cause we weren't permitted to take so much as dead air sled rides without paying off u$hPa ratings officials.

- Anybody think that Nancy would've been taking three hundred foot tows if it were just Ziggy telling her it was OK and driving the winch?

This thing we do- flying- IS dangerous.

'Specially with dickheads like you and your dad controlling all the training and standards.

Often people get away scratch free even after egregious errors... and then once in a while someone gets really seriously injured- or in this case dies- from what are in all likelihood pretty small mistakes.

That's OK. Nancy fully understood the risks of what she was doing and went brain dead doing what she loved.

It's not fair. It's not predictible, if we will be forgiven or punished dearly, for any error.

Speaking of punishing people dearly... Let's show a pool of twelve jurors the video of Nancy's last flight and see what their disposition to Pat Denevan is.

But we should know that going in...

Yeah. We all signed the waiver. What more proof do we need?

...and if we choose to do this thing anyway... we need to accept the ultimate responsibility for however each flight or each day turns out.

You're so unbelievably...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28211
Platform towing fatality in Leakey, Texas

NMERider - 2012/06/19 01:36:26 UTC

The pilot had a brush with fate a year earlier:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post453.html#p453

Gregg Ludwig - 2012/06/23 20:15:21 UTC

Poor guy was misguided and didn't have a chance.

...totally full o' shit.

Responsibility. Each pilot for themselves.

I'll be sure to bear that in mind if I ever see you in launch position with your carabiner dangling.

And yea, we also help look out for eachother, too! But if one person can forget or miss something, a second person can too.

So obviously...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...no harm whatsoever in silencing a person or two with another perspective.

It's less likely, of course... but it can happen... and if it does, sure can't blame that second person!

I'm totally convinced. Nancy's instructor, operation manager, and tow driver was doing everything right.

This discussion is good and healthy...

Depends on whether or not you get your balls definitively handed to you - the way we handed Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's balls to him in the course of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.

...in spirit... but we're talking about an accident back in April, where by the significant other's own depiction the pilot messed up and paid for it dearly.

Yeah. And the significant other was qualified to state Nancy's pilot qualifications better than scores of long term hang glider tow people are.

And now we're talking about how towing hang gliders is unacceptably demanding or risky?

We who? I know I'm not.

Can we, and shouldn't we, be talking about upping our recognition of responsibility?!

Yeah. Let's dig Nancy up and bash her head in a bit more to really drive home the point. Then we can all have a few brews with Pat and suck his dick to let him know what a great job he's been doing these past few years. Lin Lyons, Scott Howard before this one.

If a bad choice is made... own it! And move on if possible...

Or, if not, rot in your grave unable to participate in the conversation with Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight speaking on your behalf.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/21 23:24:37 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/20 02:49:27 UTC

Brian,

If you want to needle at me and instigate an arguement, at the very least do it on a different thread. One that isn't about someone losing the life of a loved one to an accident while doing the thing we are all passionate about...

Not the place dude, please.

If you want to needle at me...

He wasn't talking to you. He was talking to Steve.

...and instigate an arguement...

There IS NO *ARGUMENT*. You said left was right. It's NOT.

...at the very least do it on a different thread.

He was doing it on a different thread. He exposed you as an incompetent liar and you declared victory and ran out of the thread and "permanently" off of the forum (again).

One that isn't about someone losing the life of a loved one...

Due to the negligence, incompetence, and sleaziness of one of your u$hPa Instructor of the Year colleagues.

...to an accident...

BULLSHIT.

...while doing the thing we are all passionate about...

Locking out, slamming in, and turning her brain to mush.

Not the place dude, please.

Bloody well IS the place - motherfucker. You descend from your lofty heights to tell us muppets how:
- we're permitted to respond to this atrocity
- towing works pretty much just like free flight
- the equipment wasn't the slightest problem
- she'd have been just as dead with:
-- a Kaluzhin
-- one of those Rube Goldberg jobs from T** at K*** S******
- if she'd survived she'd be telling us that everything was entirely her own stupid fault

You need to have a fuckin' stake driven through your heart very publicly.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/08/22 01:24:43 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Nate Wreyford - 2016/08/20 17:27:01 UTC
Steve Corbin - 2016/08/19 18:59:49 UTC

How many pilots have to die as a result of The Lockout?
It's insane to keep insisting that a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft can be towed safely.
Yeah, I'm just a cranky old curmudgeon. But I'm right.
You are right in your own mind.

He's a Bob Show guy. Being right in one's own mind is the first and last word over there.

Since the implementation of towing...

SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF TOWING? Exactly when was that?

...in every case more pilots have died from blown foot launches than "the lockout".

What's this?:

02-125
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/438/18791442333_3d532be0b5_o.png

05-403
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/417/19405836292_c46de27f91_o.png

10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png

Foot launching or towing? (Most of the worst of which each flavor has to offer.)

As .org member CP how safe he finds foot launches.

Craig Pirazzi got swept off the cliff trying to ground handle the glider hooked in (à la Aussie Method) through a rotor from behind launch. Had shit to do with foot launch free flight - 'cept no fuckin' way something like that would've happened in a tow launch environment.

It is as safe as you make it but neither form of launching is forgiving of errors.

Right Nate. It's as safe as YOU make it. Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors, meet heads and tug drivers dictating equipment standards, tug drivers who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope have no say or effect on your safety in a tow operation.

Towing wasn't the problem here.

Putting a Hang One up at three hundred feet on total shit equipment was the problem there.

The incident needs attention, but the info to noise ratio on a forum prevents fruitful discussion, much less a solution.

Alright Nate. YOU fix the problem the way it should be done and get back to us.

2016/08/22 01:08:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - rregier

Timothy Ward - 2016/08/20 17:56:03 UTC

How many students still on the training hill have died from blown launches?

How many Hang One students on the training hill suddenly find themselves three hundred feet over launch with their safety dependent upon shit equipment? You're not talking about the inherent dangers of one flavor over the other. If you’re gonna talk about a beginner floating down a training hill ten feet off the slope then talk about a scooter tower being floated down the runway ten feet off the deck.

Foot launch and towing share the risk of allowing a student to go too high too soon.

1. That's not a risk. It's a CHOICE.

2. Over most of the countryside it's a lot easier to find a suitable tow environment than a suitable training hill environment. And at a tow environment one isn't all that concerned with wind direction.

With a foot launch, the student only has to worry about his own performance,

Which includes:
- supporting one's glider on one's shoulders
- the hook-in check that nobody ever does
- trimming the glider in pitch and roll
- constantly checking for wind shifts
- powering the glider up to speed with leg muscle
- not tripping on anything
- getting airborne
- transitioning to prone / certified glider configuration

That's a lotta shit to worry about, douchebag. Versus lying down on a fuckin' cart, nodding your head, waiting until you've got tons of airspeed, easing off...

02-00206
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8293/27836806574_d5a405f506_o.png

07-01002
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8811/27836802124_70d1a03ed9_o.png

08-01028
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8837/27836801354_0b89b0157e_o.png

16-01127
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8755/27836800404_fac34062b6_o.png

...and rolling in on your fuckin' wheels.

49-13601
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/14066736124_357e1df5c6_o.png

Towing is inherently more complex.

Yeah. Like getting a 747 into the air from Dulles is inherently more complex than launching a T2C pro toad with an easily reachable bent pin release at Quest.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png

There's more people involved, more stuff involved, and it all has to work properly together for the tow to be safe.

Versus a nice simple Dave Seib, Craig Pirazzi, Eli Blumenthal, Karen Carra, Larry Heidler exercise.

02-0407
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8661/15642682134_0a79984f36_o.png

14-1513
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7491/16077566168_85a5bd96b0_o.png

19-1614
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7508/16077725760_7915fba404_o.png

25-1815
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8680/15642670884_84ea58da90_o.png

That's not to disparage towing. But ignoring that fundamental truth isn't going to help safety.

But using the fake simple - good / complex - bad golden rule of hang gliding safety - which bends over backwards to ignore the required human physical actions and demands - is one of the most deadly factors we have in this sport.

Davis Straub - 2016/08/20 18:03:43 UTC

There are dangers with hill side launching and there are dangers with aerotowing.

Virtually all the product of Aerotow Industry pigfuckers like you, Rooney, Kroop, Bo, Trisa, Bart, Dennis...

I find that aerotowing is safer, but that is my very humble opinion.

Don't knock yourself out with humbleness, Davis.

Scooter towing for instructional purposes with students kept very low and not required to do any releasing at all...

Nah Davis. You certainly wouldn't wanna subject mere students to the insane hazards of...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a 20-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

...RELEASING. Did you see what happened to Jeff Bohl...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.

...when he let go of the control bar to make the easy reach to his camera? Game fuckin' over.

...is (again in my very humble opinion)...

Yours and Stalin's.

...by far the safest method of beginner instruction. I find taking a student to 300' on their 30th tow to be unconscionable.

Plus a lot of hill work before that - motherfucker. I went to five hundred feet on my first tow - 1980/11/14 - and that was foot launch pulling off the control frame. Nancy may have been as qualified for a three hundred foot tow as well as anybody else. My problem is that if she were she should've been Two rated a long time ago.

My very humble opinion.

Suck my dick.

Scooter towing has to be done right.

Nancy wasn't scooter towing.

It is not available in all terrains nor with all conditions. It is extremely limited in available conditions.

But training hills are always wide fuckin' open.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/09/05 16:28:08 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/08/20 19:05:07 UTC

Nate Wreyford - 2016/08/20 17:27:01 UTC

Towing wasn't the problem here. The incident needs attention, but the info to noise ratio on a forum prevents fruitful discussion, much less a solution.
Fruitful discussion? Not going to happen unless either ziggyc or Nancy's family file a wrongful death lawsuit against Mission Soaring Center, compels discovery, deposes all direct and other relevant witnesses along with all pertinent records of Mission Soaring Center as well as USHPA.

Nah. We know what happened and why and how. Shit ALWAYS leaks out on stuff of this magnitude and it ain't rocket science to put the pieces of the scenario together.

If there is culpability on the part of Mission and/or USHPA then there may be a settlement offer and gag order imposed in to keep everyone silent about the facts.

They had Nancy nicely silenced during the within seconds of the relevant issues transpiring. And I think they we're lucky she didn't die until the next day. Got an injury, call for an ambulance and wish her a full and speedy recovery. Declared dead at the point of impact - bigger problem with respect to the cover-up.

If only Nancy herself was the cause then the case may be dropped or dismissed and it will be up to the family whether or not to divulge any details.

A Hang One flying on tow under u$hPa official supervision is NEVER only herself the cause. No gas nobody gets hurt - and Nancy had zero control of the gas. And if Dr. Trisa Tilletti were to be fatally inconvenienced behind Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney there'd be a big problem 'cause he's on record as declaring himself the Pilot In Command and the dope on the rope as his passenger. If I were a plaintiff's attorney I'd totally gut the motherfucker with that ammunition.

No relevant facts may ever see the light of day without legal proceedings and even then it is questionable.

Aren't you happy you're not Pat Denevan reading this discussion?

Even when there is no claim filed against any party involved in a hang glider fatality it has been rare in my experience that all the relevant facts were made available.

Got a pretty cool video...

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic83.html

...outta the Shannon Hamby midair and crash.

One notable exception is the accident report of John Kelly Harrison and Arys Moorhead.

Total obfuscation. Took weeks of analysis of all available evidence to document what actually happened and what everybody was attempting to cover up.

Very sadly, this is the exception and not the rule.

Anything and everything they made available 'cause they calculated that NOT making it available presented the greater threat. That was the second most viral and first most catastrophic fatal incident in the entire world history of hang gliding. (Jonathan Orders should've waited for Martin Henry - Mitch Shipley's HPAC counterpart - to swallow the card.)

It seems that fear of liability claims has resulted in a policy of stonewalling.

And that path that Tim Herr and the top u$hPa dickheads sent US hang gliding down resulted in u$hPa losing its insurance and being in a position in which no insurance company on the planet will touch them at any price. And I'd like to think that the efforts of Team Kite Strings accelerated the evolution of that situation.

It is stonewalling that ziggyc has been rightfully complaining about.

Didn't take him very long to get a good picture of how this sewer of a sport really operates, did it?

Stonewalling can lead to lawsuits if for no other purpose than to enforce discovery and deposition of witnesses. Sadly, stonewalling may lead to additional fatalities that may have been averted by disseminating...

Decimating.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=371460#371460

...accurate and relevant accident data.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

Pure unbridled carnage. And of course the obvious corollaries to that are that u$hPa will:
- implement the most dangerous procedures and standards possible and carve them in granite
- go after anybody threatening anything in the way of reform with as much vengeance as it's able to muster

So the policy of stonewalling in order to reduce liability claims may have the reverse effect and actually lead to more liability claims rather than reducing them.

And u$hPa was too fuckin' stupid to be able to consider that obvious likely outcome when they put all their eggs in the total sleaze basket. So here we are watching the sport slip into extinction.

This is tragic since the net result seems to have been an increase in avoidable fatalities during the eight years I have been back in this sport.

Seems to have been? These motherfuckers are serial killers.

Don't forget that Nancy was the second of two student surface tow lockout fatalities over a short period of time.

Figured out what happened with Tomas Banevicius too.

Both of these were not long after the Kelly Harrison tandem fatality.

If we've got to drop a name let's drop the name of the perpetrator - not the victim (whose name ("his 11 year old student") wasn't even given in u$hPa's bullshit report).

There have been other ramifications of this questionable policy of stonewalling that have led to other complications inside the sport and whose consequences are difficult to fully ascertain.

You degrade ANYTHING in aviation it WILL translate to fatalities over enough time.

I don't know if there's a better way or not.

Can you think of any worse ways?

This may be as good as it gets.

Terminally ill patient... NOW is always gonna be as good as it's ever gonna get.

There is another side to stonewalling that is related to Internet Culture and has little to do with liability claims. The Internet Culture of public shaming that this unmoderated forum...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

NMERider - 2016/05/26 17:03:47 UTC

I will ask Tad Eareckson for any information he has on hand. Yes. I said Tad Eareckson. He does a great job of collecting and archiving information like this.

...has been notorious for between 2007 and recent years has driven the vast majority of public discussion of safety issue underground...

And majorly above ground at Kite Strings as much as possible.

...and so frank and factual discussions of safety matters in general has become all but extinct with very few exceptions.

You're welcome.

So in my opinion, another major source of the increased accident and fatality rate is directly attributable to public shaming on the internet as well as by personal gossip and backbiting.

I'm a great believer in frontbiting.

The culture of hang gliding in America has resulted in preventable accidents as well as avoidable fatalities.

The culture of hang gliding...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9007.html#p9007

...in America and pretty much all of the rest of the planet is the CAUSE of virtually all CRASHES in the sport. Cite an incident which is good evidence of the contrary.

It is the culture of both public and private ridicule as well as the dissemination of myth and folklore passing itself off as established fact.

Pat Denevan needs to be totally disemboweled in response to this one. Want some positive results? Manslaughter conviction and some prison time to get the point across.

So people wanted a dialog or discussion? Well here you have it.

With the full participation of the interested people Jack permits...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

...in his Living Room.

Everyone take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself this question: Have I ever been guilty of the rush to judgement and publicly or privately chastised another pilot without first speaking directly with that pilot and getting all the facts?

And in this particular case:

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC

There was a fatal crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.

Please be careful out there. We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida, a mid-air at McClure, a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.

Not so much as a name and total silence from Mission to this day.

Well guess what people--everyone of us who have contributed to this culture of public and covert shaming either directly or by not opposing it have contributed to the untimely death of Nancy.

Not...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=992
Continuing Saga of Weak Link and Release Mechanism Failures

Warren Narron - 2012/03/06 02:26:04 UTC

Tad, used to post about as nice as anyone, and nicer than some. Remember?

Blowback... You put in a thousand plus hour$, tooling, te$ting and documenting safety issues for the masses and have it ignored and suppressed by people, for whatever reason, and you would get testy too.
You're fairly snarky as it is, and you haven't done the work...

And you may be correct about the footnote... but today's footnotes are now hyperlinks...

There is a good chance that from now on, for every incident and fatality caused by insufficient weaklinks or sub-standard release mechanisms, a hyperlink trail will lead back to Tadtriedtowarnyou.com ... where all the evidence can be found.

A further link could then go to a list of all the people and the role they played in the suppression of those safety issues...
Who would like to be on that list?
How many are already on it?

...here.

Shame on every last one of us including yours truly. We all contributed to the mess we are in be it through arrogance, cowardice or any combination of the two extremes.

Hell, the best thing for the sport at this point...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table

ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC

I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.

...is to just keep running around every day giving the impression that everything's great and totally safe. Especially when the safety records totally fucking suck.

This was a community effort and we need to change our course in order for this ship to stay afloat.

All hands on deck!

Women and children first into our rather limited supply of lifeboats.

2016/08/20 19:43:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Heli1
2016/08/21 15:32:30 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/09/06 04:14:59 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Steve Corbin - 2016/08/20 19:24:42 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/20 02:49:27 UTC

If you want to needle at me and instigate an argument, at the very least do it on a different thread. One that isn't about someone losing the life of a loved one to an accident while doing the thing we are all passionate about...
I'll start a new topic concerning the control methods for Hg's.

Yeah Steve. And make sure not to weigh in on whether or not a pilot needs to apply...

069-25104
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1572/26142964830_289bc3f2cb_o.png

...TORQUE - with BOTH hands - in order to effect roll control.

I have opinions...

Yeah, fuck anybody who has OPINIONS in hang gliding.

...and would greatly appreciate being proven wrong, as it would lighten my load considerably.

Just make sure not to do it on Kite Strings.

Heli1 - 2016/08/20 19:26:25 UTC

Looking from the outside.
I find this unheard of.
Trying to put the blame on a student, a H1?
Really?
What a rotten system/culture

Which is the fundamental problem - one that only gets worse with time.

2016/08/20 19:58:18 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

NMERider - 2016/08/20 20:14:01 UTC

The American way is to evade responsibility for the consequences of one's own decisions and actions and always blame the victim whether there's any truth or not.

When these shit operations...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

...keep getting away with their shit practices it's always evidence of the stellar job they do. And whenever somebody gets totaled it's 'cause he was a stupid muppet who thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. And note the on the last day of October of last year Highland Aerosports' track record came to a permanent end.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6833
Highland Saturday 31th

John Middleton - 2015/11/01 15:15:56 UTC
Arlington

On my first tow the weak link broke at 1000 and I tried to survive but only extended for a couple of minutes before landing.

As totally fucking clueless as they were on their first day of commercial operation - 1999/05/28, sixteen years and five months before - when on the first flight of Yours Truly's he made it all the way up to 125 feet before their standard aerotow weak link increased the safety of the towing operation and set him up for a snapped VG side downtube.

Offenders frequently play the victim and try to shift blame onto the other party. Could the liability waiver we all sign in order to fly at USHPA insured sites get abused as a shield against culpability and liability by those whose neglect results in other people's accidents and injuries?

Do bears shit...

Isn't that a sad thought!

But wait--there's more. What if an accident is dutifully reported and the pilot decides to sue for slander and defamation of character?

Name some hang glider pilots who have enough in the way of character to be worth talking about.

Even if the name and location are both concealed there may be enough detail in the report for...

...Team Kite Strings to be able to figure out who's involved.

...a jury to decide that it was easy enough to figure out who the pilot was and that the pilot was harmed in some way.

Even if a pilot self-reports a serious or even a minor accident it can have other legal ramifications that affect the pilot's employer or business associates and then self-reporting pilot gets fired from his job or gets cut off from business opportunities for being considered a bad risk.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

It can also come back to bite the pilot in an unrelated lawsuit against that pilot where the accident data is used to prove the pilot was negligent or careless in something completely unrelated.

As can his public driving record.

We already know that we cannot count on the media who are protected by The First Amendment to provide factual reporting. So where do we turn? This gets to be like sex education where kids only learn about the birds and the bees via locker-room gossip and internet free porn.

Tom Galvin - 2016/08/21 03:25:16 UTC

Nate Wreyford - 2016/08/20 17:27:01 UTC

As .org member CP how safe he finds foot launches.
Craig and I talked quite a bit about the risks of the sites we were flying in the Canyonlands area.

I trust you discussed the danger the false sense of security doing a hook-in check at the edge of the cliff...

...presents.

He was very aware that they were significantly elevated. I do not know the circumstances of this incident and hope that the pilots loved ones can find answers to their questions to give them some peace.

Right. There were factors in this one that would provide the "pilot"'s loved ones some peace if only they were revealed.

However the circumstances of Craig's passing have no bearing on this incident or the relative risk of towing weight shift aircraft.

Where is a hiker more likely to die? Canyonlands or Tres Pinos?

Nate Wreyford - 2016/08/21 13:45:06 UTC

Statements like "there is no way to tow a weight shift aircraft safely" also have no bearing on this incident. But pointing out personal losses from the .org like Craig or John Seward removes the fantasy that foot launching is somehow the ticket to staying safe. CP's accident does highlight the varied levels of foot launches...

Ground handling environments.

...just like there are varied levels of tow launches and tow techniques.

Tow TECHNIQUES? The fundamentals are pretty much identical.

I'm sorry for everyone's losses. I hope that peace and love fill the voids left behind.

Sure they will. Just read ziggyc's posts.

I learned via foot launch and exercise both methods. It is hard to argue with the safety of learning by towing when you see the good products and safe pilots that are being produced.

Name some. If there were actually significant numbers of safe tow pilots in the population bullshit like this would never happen 'cause it wouldn't be tolerated.

There was clearly something a miss in Tres.

1. Past tense?

2. SOMETHING? Like just one thing was really wrong with that operation?

3. We've got tons of clear unambiguous documentation of TONS of bullshit that was and is wrong in Tres. But nobody in any position to do anything about it did shit about any of it. And there's zero evidence that anything's changed for the better subsequent to this one.

A HG instructor like a swimming instructor shouldn't let a student get in too deep.

When a swimming student is in too deep you can fix whatever's going on in there by giving him the other end of your pole.

Arguments can be made about releases...

No...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

...shit. And most certainly will be. And there won't be any easy way to shut these motherfuckers up.

...and assumed responsibility, but at the end of the day, a dead H1 is not congruent with a safe learning experience. H2 might be a different story as by H2, much more of the risk is placed upon the pilot.

How 'bout a Hang Four pro toad...

5026-1
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png

...in an incident in which there's not the slightest suspicion that anybody did anything the slightest bit wrong and that if we got a do-over we'd do everything exactly the same?

Peace

Rest in it.

Tormod Helgesen - 2016/08/21 19:03:08 UTC

Nate Wreyford - 2016/08/20 17:27:01 UTC

Since the implementation of towing, in every case more pilots have died from blown foot launches than "the lockout".
Any proof of that? It's been years since I last heard of a foot launch death that didn't involve faulty/wrongly assembled equipment or failure to hook in.

Wouldn't failure to hook in fall under the category of faulty/wrongly assembled equipment and doesn't a rolling tow launch take that issue totally out of the equation?

Maybe it's just my faulty memory.

2009/11/27 - Chris Thale
2010/06/26 - John Seward
2012/04/05 - Dave Seib
2013/05/30 - Grant Bond
2015/01/24 - Trevor Scott
2015/06/26 - Trey Higgins
2015/11/01 - Uli Blumenthal
2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
2016/06/29 - Larry Heidler

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/21 21:17:24 UTC

When was tha last time you heard of an aerotowing incident due to failure to hook in?

02-0609

06-0818

07-0913

10-1003

14-1728

15-1900

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png

http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg

But stay the hell away from launch dollies 'cause they add complexity to the system and complexity always increases failure rates. Right...

...Paul?

As far as not hooking your harness to the glider, that is a danger that is limited to foot launching.

Which never happens in towing.

There have been at least two fatalities due to blown foot launches in the last year or so that I know of offhand.

2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
2016/06/29 - Larry Heidler

And:
2015/08/24 - Craig Pirazzi
with a really big asterisk.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/09/06 17:27:49 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Ryan Voight - 2016/08/21 22:26:48 UTC

Number of fatalities is a meaningless statistic without additional information..

Which is a real bitch in a sport controlled by a monopoly corporation with a primary mission of additional information suppression.

...such as, how many foot launches or tow launches occur each year (in total)? And how many pilots foot launch or tow launch each year?

1. What? You're excluding foot launch...

02-125
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/438/18791442333_3d532be0b5_o.png

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png
10-525

....tow from your statistics?

2. Depends a lot upon what you're defining as a "pilot". By the way I count the totals would be really close to zero for both.

3. If you wanna get a good feel for the relative risks of foot versus rolling (wheels, dolly, platform) launch eliminate the flights in which the "instructor" forces the student to foot launch tow and try to find examples of people foot launch towing up into soarable air.

Just those two added numbers...

That we're never in a million years gonna be able to get so why bother discussing it?

...might *start* to draw a meaningful picture.

An example of using fatality statistics falsely-

To amend to your record of using fake physics to explain to us muppets why the glider will respond to forces in a manner opposite from what it actually does.

...but we've been doing it for years- is the beloved HG vs PG safety debate. Each year there are more PG fatalities than HG (some years a lot more, some years it's closer, but I don't think there's been any year where it was balanced or skewed the other way...)

But the only stat we readily know is how many USHPA members are HG, PG, or both. We don't know how often each member flies, or of those rated for both, we don't know if they're not active in one discipline or the other. As of today, there are more PG members than HG members. But that's not enough... how often do we see PG pilots take the "shotgun" approach to soaring? You know- show up early and take several flights until they finally "stick" and soar? Hang glider pilots tend to favor the sniper approach- set up, observe conditions, and take your one shot for the day.

Don't tow much...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

...do ya?

So just taking one active member of each discipline, on one typical flying day, who has more EXPOSURE to risk? Hard to say actually... cause there are lots of other variables, too...

The vast majority of which are eliminated by the "complexities" of the towing operations and environments.

So please- think before we say things.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

Like, really think through it- think about what you mean to say, then consider of your written words actually say that. Think about whatever point or supporting info you're including... and if it actually means what you think it means.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34277
"evidence of that silliness"

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/21 20:53:49 UTC

Why should it seem unreasonable to expect a demonstration? Who are you, exactly? Why would it be reasonable? You're the guy getting free information and knowledge, and you're basically demanding MORE free work from the guy spending (wasting?) hours trying to inform and educate. No. It is not reasonable. If I had the video already, of course I'd share it. But I haven't gone out to video-document a theory that I already proved to myself to be true. What would be the point? Why would I spend the time? I care enough to share the info here, and I care enough to even go rounds with you (thus far, but I'm done)... but I guess I don't care enough to go spend a couple hours setting up a glider, running around, filming myself, editing, posting, and then explaining myself to you? If you don't care enough to go outside and try it... then yes, it's unreasonable to expect me to. Don't ya think?

Otherwise this is just a bunch of monkey's humping a football, and totally not appropriate considering the subject matter for this thread- which is the unfortunate and unnecessary loss of life of one of the relatively few in the world who "get us" and how cool hang gliding is and why we do it...

So far... this seems like a lot of WELL-MEANING solutions... from people that don't seem to understand "the problem"... or the solution they're even proposing (IE towing is too dangerous?!).

Love it or hate it, as pilots we are ultimately responsible for whatever happens to us.

And instructors and tow drivers get free passes no matter what.

Jono mentioned "blaming the victim"... I would like to respectfully suggest that is not what this responsibility is... because when someone dies hang gliding, WE are the victims. Their friends, family, and loved ones are the victims.

And they got to die doing what they loved. Just doesn't seem very fair to me.

It's not about BLAME... it's about responsibility. Who had the first and last opportunity to prevent the tragedy, and who had everything riding on their ability to do that?

The Rooney Link and its reputation?

Sadly the departed can't "take responsibility" on their own... but to label allowing them that maturity as "blaming the victim"- to me- feels cheap at best.

What have you been drinking, popping, smoking, injecting?

I do understand if not everyone agrees... that's cool, and we don't have to agree...

But please... let's think through what we're posting here?

Thank you, Ryan. I found that to be very enlightening.

Matt Christensen - 2016/08/21 22:53:34 UTC

So, you are suggesting logic, reason, consideration and a fundamental understanding of statistics be applied to these discussions. Maybe a dash of basic writing comprehension and proofing. Doesn't seem like too much to ask...

flysurfski - 2016/08/21 23:38:14 UTC

As a former instructor IMO anyone who suggests that the dead student should take responsibility for this should have their head checked. Really...

We've already checked the heads of these assholes and know exactly how they work and why.

Now YES H2...

Here's a Hang Two victim of Lockout Mountain Flight Park:

05-03223
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png

08-43827
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png

13-50017
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5193/14002093889_95c09edf26_o.png

Does that look to you like somebody who's been taught to launch, fly, approach, land?

http://ozreport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

John Seward
2010/06/26

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it's difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

That's one hundred percent the fucking idiot instructor. In order for anyone to have a reasonably good chance of long term health in this sport he's gotta unlearn all the total crap he paid for to get him started - and that can take decades even if he DOES have a functional brain.

...and above and H4 and H5 especially. I stopped saying shit to H4/H5 pilots 2 decades ago unless asked first. That is like talking to a brick wall.

At best. At least the brick wall is totally consistent in its responses.

And as for the waiver: No waiver in existence can waiver negligence (NOT SAYING THAT WAS THE CASE HERE WITH THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF INFORMATION AT HAND).

The extent of the limitation of information at hand tells you in no uncertain terms that it was negligence beyond all imagination - consistent with previous well documented incidents and Mission.

This is also why I have issues with USHPGA selling instructor insurance. But lets not even open up that can of worms...

Oh let's...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe.

BTW just for the record I had one injury accident teaching HG. A dislocated shoulder on Jockey's Ridge.

Me too.

The mission was to get everybody off for their five rides no matter what and there were wind directions that totally sucked with the available selection of dunes. I tried to get a guy off the Front Dune (facing the Bypass) in a light major north/left cross. Didn't get airborne, the trainer caught its left wing and spun, the guy started screaming in agony. There was nothing like an impact or anything and in the first second I thought he was joking. He most assuredly wasn't.

Shoulder had been previously dislocated so maybe an asterisk on that one but it's not a pleasant memory. Not a high percentage of pleasant memories from a ride factory operation.

Even though the student refused to listen and stop pushing out on launch...

One useful valid item I picked up from Mike Robertson... NEVER tell students what NOT to do. Solid guarantee that they'll do it - to a T.

...in the end it was my fault: I LET HIM GO TOO HIGH ON THE HILL...

But he signed the waiver so fuck him.

Kite Strings

2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

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