landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33373
Nice sledder with less nice ending...

Jorge Zingg Jorge - 2015/09/05 17:56:04 UTC
Switzerland

Here's a very nice flight, with a bad ending to it. Was lucky that nothing happened, learned the lesson, but can be useful for others. Enjoy (the flight, at least).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsp0uOG5_M


It's a bit long...

Yes. Think about editing down or out the moving-up-to-the-ramp crap.

...so for the bloodthirsty...

Carnage is directly here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsp0uOG5_M?t=768

Like the way you Aussied into your harness. That way you don't need to do a hook-in check and get the false sense of security it gives until you're at or off the end of the ramp.

NMERider - 2015/09/05 19:53:29 UTC

Thanks for posting. What lesson did you learn?

Nothing whatsoever of any POSITIVE value.

And what...

Tad Eareckson - 2015/09/06 07:35:25 UTC

Unfortunately they HAVEN'T done a good job of discouraging u$hPa from training pilots to reasonably safely land in funky places they've never seen. And that's where 99.9 percent of the actual carnage takes place - in Happy Acres putting greens being used for narrow-dry-riverbed-with-large-rocks-strewn-all-over-the-place simulations.

...was I just saying less than 25 hours ago about this issue, Jonathan?

Jack Barth - 2015/09/06 00:24:46 UTC

That blade almost took your head off.

Then maybe we should be looking at the best way to minimize the possibility of that happening.

dreamflyer - 2015/09/06 01:19:14 UTC
South Central Montana

Thanks for sharing , beautiful place to fly . I've done those push out not up landings also . They suck !

That wasn't a push out not up landing. That was a glider flown into the ground.

Comet - 2015/09/06 06:12:35 UTC
Washington, DC

Good initial landing form...

Bullshit.

...but not a hint of a flare - not an iota, tidbit, intimation, suggestion or allusion to a flare!

Or, for that matter, a round-out.

And all you...

...faggot...

...wheel advocates out there, note what the heck good his wheels did - he still got stopped dead and nearly decapitated.

1. No shit. He floats down to the surface (and through the gradient if he's got anything in the way of a headwind) with zilch airspeed and continues his descent without detectable interruption until the ground interrupts it.

2. Yeah, he stopped just as dead with the wheels as he would've with a bare basetube. Therefore we can obviously and safely conclude that wheels are never of any value in mitigating the severity of a blown foot landing effort.

Wheels do little more than offer a false sense of security...

1. Give him credit for skipping the hook-in check.

2. Yeah Jorge, take your wheels off. That'll give you less of a false sense of security, make you less of a faggot, and help you focus better on your flare timing.

that may actually deter some from taking a landing clinic.

And if you belly in like that again WITHOUT the wheels you'll REALLY be motivated to take a landing clinic (if you don't get quaded anyway).

Ditto for all you helmet advocate faggots. And if you wanna have any hope of becoming competent aerobatics pilots get rid the fuckin' parachutes yesterday.

REAL wheel advocates advocate landing on them. And I really love it when you foot landing advocate total dickheads use crashes precipitated entirely by intents to foot land and use them to denigrate wheels and wheel landings.

Total fuckin' asshole.

Jorge Zingg Jorge - 2015/09/06 09:25:29 UTC

Too slow on final, I let the wing die too much before flaring...

FUCK flaring. You let the goddam wing die completely before reaching the surface. You had ZERO reserve speed. And if you'd take a good landing clinic you'd have a possibility of understanding that - 'specially if it's by some dickhead like Mitch Shipley, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, or one of the Voight twins.

...dragged feet around.

Yeah, you should've had your feet under you so you could've effectively dealt with a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place had one suddenly appeared.

I need to keep the wing flat higher and flare earlier.

You don't need to flare AT ALL - asshole. You need to think about your fuckin' wheels as something other than a Plan B for botched foot landing efforts.

Also (like Comet correctly comments)...

Fuck Comet.

...too much confidence in the wheels.

Yeah, that was OBVIUOSLY your problem. Lose them. You'll be amazed at how much safer your landings will become.

I was about to flare exactly at the same instant when it got stuck.

Ya fell out of the sky - idiot.

It was this: "flare NOW!" and "WHACK!".

Don't worry...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

About eighty percent of foot landing attempts in Happy Acres putting greens end up like that to some degree or other.

Looking at the video, I should have flared 1 or 2 seconds earlier.

23-10629
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1843/44410454212_5ffcaa5588_o.png

28-11505
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34683464104_88bfcfd2b1_o.png

34-12413
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4216/34683462724_74534af232_o.png


See where Niki's got the goddam bar on final in dead air when she has ZERO intention of an idiot perfectly timed foot landing flare? Were you this fuckin' stupid BEFORE you got into hang gliding?

[<BS>]

dinosoar 2015. wheel landing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrg_ZxhXc1o


I should have slowed down a bit more before touch down.
Northern Tool wheels modified with a hub for VG.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2932/33156164950_2fb3df1deb_o.jpg


http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2923/33411163931_e9b6fd4f86_o.jpg

Just so you know, those wheels aren't particularly built for sideways loads, and drilling out their hubs probably makes them worse. I've seen pictures of one and personally witnessed another failure. I recommend moving your hands a radius of the wheels distance away from the hub - with thumbs on top - when touching down (especially if there may be some sideways motion). Sorry, that concludes my mommy speech.

[spark]

Thanks BS. Yes, I've seen them fail first hand, although I've never personally side-loaded them enough to cause a failure. Usually, the hubs wear out first. I've worn out three sets of these, and I usually keep one or two spare sets. Most hg wheels do not take a side-load well (e.g. whoosh wheels). My FrogLegs Big Rigs are an exception - they take crosswind landings well. http://www.froglegsinc.com/collections/forks/products/big-rigs

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33391
dune lessons - pre H1 - should I stay upright?

John Asa Price - 2015/09/08 01:31:58 UTC
Cary, NC

Hi Gang -

Gang? Yeah, that works. I'd go with cult though - much better fit.

I"m taking lessons on Jockey's Ridge, NC.

I took and gave them there 35 years ago.

A few questions:

You're taking lessons from Kitty Hawk Kites but you mistrust your instructors to the extent that you're consulting the Gang. Think you'd be doing anything like that if you were learning to fly a Cessna?

Go prone during dune lesson?

Only if you're interested in controlling your aircraft in flight. Never been much of a priority in hang gliding.

My flights are around 10-15 seconds long, and I'm having trouble timing my flare.

Don't worry, you'll get it down pretty well after another five or ten thousand repetitions. Maybe a little faster if you go to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings

and study what hang gliding's Patron Saint of Landings has to say on the issue.

Does it make sense to stay upright through the flight from launch to landing for these short dune lessons?

Obviously. Like I was just trying to tell you, the object of hang gliding is not to fly like a bird - it's to fulfill the dream of flaring a glider with the perfect timing you need to stop dead on your feet, the one you've been nurturing since early childhood.

Here's the question you SHOULD be asking yourself and others:

Does it EVER make sense to GO upright to land?

In my first lessons, I was going prone after getting airborne, but I wonder if I should be doing this at this altitude? (less than 10 ft AGL)

No, being prone and in control of the glider is never very important below a hundred feet. Below that you need to give the timing and execution of your flare - preferably on an old Frisbee in the middle of your target area - full priority.

Protecting my lower back

Fuck your lower back - faggot. Do ya wanna perfect your flare timing or not? If you don't then take up checkers.

OK - I'm 52. My lower back can get a little sore.

I'm 62. By the time I've walked a hundred yards or so my lower back compresses and pinches my spinal chord to the extent that I start getting paralyzed from the waist down. I hafta sit for a minute or two and decompress and then I'm good for another hundred yards. But what ability is more important to you in the long run? Nailing your flares or walking?

I'm doing yoga stretches and strengthening exercises. Are there certain things I should be doing to protect my lower back?

Fuck your lower back. Ya think NFL players worry about what kinda brain function they'll have when they're careers are over in four or five years?

Getting from here to Air
I'll be taking a tandem towing lesson, and an advanced dune lesson this weekend and hope t complete H1 after a few more lessons.

Tell your tandem instructor you'd like to use that flight to further your efforts to perfect your flare timing. And be sure to ask him about his ol' former colleague Zack Marzec and what weak links he's most happy with for solo and tandem and for his opinion on their purposes. And if you run into Dennis Wood - AKA "peanut" - make sure to tell him to go fuck himself for me.

Best flying near Raleigh, NC
I live near Raleigh, NC. Most flying sites are about the same distance from here (about 3 hours). Any recommendations for other sites in this area?

I dunno. Just try to find one that uses a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place as its primary so you'll be able to put your flare timing skills to good use.

Other pilots in the Triangle area?

Highly unlikely. You'll almost certainly hafta settle for the usual testosterone poisoned semiliterate sorts of douchebags who fly hang gliders and offer their opinions on The Jack Show.

Love to hear any advice for starting hang gliding in your '50s.

Never go upright or try to land on your feet unless you've got at least twelve miles per hour of smooth straight headwind at surface level - regardless of your age. This sport can turn a 20-year-old jock into an 85-year-old invalid in a millisecond. See Paul Vernon as an example along those lines.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33391
dune lessons - pre H1 - should I stay upright?

Tom Lyon - 2015/09/08 05:53:34 UTC

Welcome!

To Jack's Living Room! Where you can freely discuss anything you want - just as long as it's OK with Jack.

-I wouldn't transition to the prone position for flights of that duration.

Hey John... Start making a list of things Tom wouldn't do if you wanna have much hope for long term survival in this sport.

I didn't do so until I flew from the mountain (at Lookout).

And then only the ten seconds between the end of the five seconds of Christopher's Five Second Rule and the beginning of his approach pattern.

All of my hill training flights were in the duration you're flying now, and the instructors didn't have any of us students transition from upright.

So obviously what Tom's instructors were telling him should supersede what your instructors are telling you. Plus this is the answer you wanted to hear anyway.

You will also be able to focus more on executing a good...

...stunt...

...landing if you aren't transitioning to the prone position and then back again before trying to land.

FLYING? Don't worry about it. You can pick it up on the fly (so to speak) after you get cleared for Packsaddle.

-As for your back, I'll be 55 next month an I have two ruptured discs.

How'd the old Frisbees come out?

I do pretty well with managing the pain...

With huge doses of narcotics which wreak absolute havoc with his brain function but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

...and the things you are doing are helpful, I'm sure. If you don't have to carry the glider back up by yourself, that's helpful. Also, if there is a breeze, I will take advantage of that to help lift the glider off of my shoulders when I'm carrying it. There is some technique to that, but it's something we all need to learn how to do anyway (ground handling with some wind).

I'll also take advantage of an offer to help carry my glider (F4 195) or load it on the car rack. Anything to minimize the amount of carrying I have to do. A glider doesn't "feel" heavy because it's so well balanced and everything, but 55 lbs (for my Falcon) is quite a bit bearing down on my spine. I definitely feel it for a day after flying, even when I'm as careful as possible.

But never worry about whipstalling your glider to a dead stop in dead air with the arched back of classic form. That'll NEVER be problematic. Ya think instructors from all corners of the planet would be teaching it if it were?

Nic Welbourn - 2015/09/08 07:01:16 UTC

Welcome!

We foot launch and land upright, so it's wise to be in this position well ahead of time.

And "WE" never question WHY "WE" land upright or consider all the needless death and destruction that we reap as a consequence - so just shut up and DO IT, asshole.

Go prone when you have plenty of time before an upright position will be needed...

Show him a video of a landing in which an upright position is NEEDED - dickhead.

...spend your training time concentrating on launch and landing.

And fuck stuff like flying and turning.

Best insurance for your back (aside from exercise etc) is...

...DEFINITELY NOT wheel landing but...

...to get really good at launching/landing and make perfecting it your lifelong pursuit.

'Cause...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

...you'll NEVER be able to actually ACHIEVE it - as is blindingly obvious to every asshole and his job. And don't worry about what you're highly likely to do to an arm or shoulder when you don't get things quite right or your lower back when you nail them. Remember, this is now your lifelong pursuit. And who knows? Ya just might be able to get a little flying in if the injuries you sustain in the course of your lifelong pursuit...

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/R0019247201059.jpg


...aren't too debilitating.

+ understanding and constantly being weary of 'intermediate syndrome'.

Sumpin' wrong with Tandem Student, Novice, Advanced, and Master Syndromes? We've already killed people in all those categories so far this year. Intermediate is one of the two we're still missing.

+ the idea that it's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there, than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

Yeah, that one's real useful. Tim Martin - 2011/06/06 - is about the only one it applies to from the last zillion years and on that afternoon there were SCORES of gliders in the air and NOBODY saw it coming. But keep babbling away with that crap 'cause it sounds clever and makes you appear profound.

Meanwhile, back in reality...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

The overwhelming percentage of serious injuries are the sole consequences of upright positions being NEEDED when there's absolutely no need for an upright position and a critical need for a prone position.

Peanuts (here on the ORG) might be able to give you info re flying sites around NC.

Yeah, you could probably get that much information from that total douchebag without too many lasting ill effects.

Good luck...

Yeah, like Steve said, you're gonna NEED the luck. That's the reason most of the motherfuckers you're talking to in that dump are still around.

...and welcome to free flight

DAMN STRAIGHT!

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Let freedom ring! The only thing this sport loves more than freedom is silencing people with unpopular views and positions. And that's actually a freedom of expression in and of itself. So all we're really talking about is extra freedom.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33391
dune lessons - pre H1 - should I stay upright?

Nic Welbourn - 2015/09/08 07:26:33 UTC

Oh, and if the back is a big issue you could always consider only flying at sites with flat LZs...

Like everybody on the entire fucking planet does.

...and set your glider up for wheel landings...

Like everybody with half a brain or better does anyway - for those extremely rare occasions...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide

Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."

...when his flare timing isn't as perfect as it should be.

...far from ideal in terms of retaining good flare skills should you need them (you probably will).

1. Besides, he's already made perfecting his flare skills his lifelong pursuit.

2. Bullshit. Anyone who's too fucking stupid to be able to keep himself out of these fictional situations in which he will need good flare skills is at least fifty times too fucking stupid to be able to develop good flare skills.

I've recently learnt that the key to managing lower back protrusion issues can come from learning to activate the lateral ab muscle (not the oblique ab or 'six pack') via live ultrasound at a physiotherapist, then exercising to keep it in good shape. This 'core strength' will help keep things in alignment and can be used with great effect when you have a flare-up.

As a consequence of an imperfect flare up.

Wish I'd known about that years ago already!

I wish you'd get tuned into the actual issues that are getting people demolished and stop giving them dangerous solutions to nonexistent problems.

Think about what Nic is telling you, John...

- PERFECTING your landing flare will be a lifelong pursuit for you - as it is for everybody else. That's another way of saying that it's totally impossible for anyone to ever perfect his landing flare.

- You'll only be able to work on perfecting your landing flare in huge flat Happy Acres putting greens in light smooth headwinds 'cause practicing this in switchy turbulent stuff or strong air rotoring over a treeline is suicide.

- It's pretty much inevitable that at some point in your career you will need to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

- WHEN this happens your only real hope for survival will be the perfect landing flare that no human has ever been able to perfect in the course of a career.

- And in order for the perfect landing flare to have the slightest chance of working you will need to have been blown of course and into range of your narrow-dry-riverbed-with-large-rocks-strewn-all-over-the-place bailout option by the light smooth air required for an attempt at a perfect flare.

THIS SHIT DOES NOT HAPPEN...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...IN REAL LIFE.

NOBODY just happens to get into these situations by accident. People get into these situations by being stupid and careless and/or taking calculated risks and pushing their luck. And when they get into these situations they're just trying to get parked with as little damage as possible to themselves and their gliders. Sometimes they're pretty happy to belly in and let a downtube or two dissipate the excess energy.

There ARE NO VIDEOS of people handling emergency landings with perfect flares.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

That's ALL perfected and lucky flares are good for. Showing off in primary putting greens in the dead air that prevented people from going anywhere in the first place. And bear in mind that the person getting the cheer is only getting the cheer 'cause he's bonked the previous five attempts. If Joe Hotshot is pulling these things off ten times in a row nobody will be bothering to look up. It's not just that it's an extraordinary accomplishment with respect to the field of players - it's an extraordinary accomplishment for the individual hotshot.

P.S. Just wanna make the point that...

Tad Eareckson - 2011/03/05 00:01:23 UTC

Your average weekend pilot is NEVER gonna be able to consistently stop the glider on his feet in light smooth air more than about two thirds of the time. Watch what happens at ANY LZ on ANY weekend. Regularly scheduled bonks, whacks, ground loops, and trashed downtubes. The perfect boulder/corn field landing is such a rarity that people cheer on the odd occasion when someone actually pulls one off.

...Steve Corbin wasn't the first person to make this point. (Ninth post in this thread.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33391
dune lessons - pre H1 - should I stay upright?

Red Howard - 2015/09/08 16:37:27 UTC

John Asa Price - 2015/09/08 01:31:58 UTC

Go prone during dune lesson?

John,

Well, I'd say No, you are not getting enough time for prone transitions, as a new pilot.

Yeah John, never mind that Kitty Hawk has been teaching this since the beginning of time to untold hundreds of thousands of tourist glider riders and a few dozen serious students, nobody's ever complained about it, there've been no relevant incidents reported, and it's exactly the way the most highly skilled foot landers on the planet...

14-3903
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2909/14210597485_d7b1b6bed9_o.png


...ACTUALLY LAND... Red says he'd say no, you are not getting enough time for prone transitions, as a new pilot. So obviously you should go with that.

Flare timing...

...hang gliding's impossible dream...

...is a matter of letting the glider fly itself, then count to One, and flare.

In, of course, glassy smooth air in well groomed putting greens such that if/when you fuck up a little your chances or pretty good of just trashing a downtube.

Here an expert pilot...

...and the world's most highly respected authority on 130 pound test fishing line who's flown XC about once in his life and spends all good soaring time pulling actual hang glider pilots up with Dragonflies which he wheel lands, regular flying conditions doing tandem thrill rides which he wheel lands, and dead conditions teaching scooter tows and demonstrating foot landings on dead air putting greens...

...clearly demonstrates that the glider is flying at trim speed; he counts to One...

...around twenty percent of his intellectual capacity...

...then he flares.

...his Falcon 2 lined up with the windsock perfectly, every time. Whereas if you talk to ACTUAL XC pilots flying ACTUAL XC gliders loaded up with ACTUAL high altitude / XC gear in ACTUAL XC conditions and landing in ACTUAL XC fields - mostly without prominent windsocks...

And if you're towing and a Rooney Link suddenly inconveniences you in order to increase the safety of the towing operation... Just pull in smoothly, wait for the glider to recover from the stall, round out, wait until the glider's back down to trim speed, count to One, then flare.

Students should relax on the control bar before the flare, yes, but do not remove the hands.

That's really dangerous. 'Cept, of course, when you're in a low level lockout and need to make the easy reach to your Industry Standard release. Then it's no problem whatsoever.

Tilt your head for the video:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Excellent_Flare_Video
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/How_to_land_a_hang_glider#Trim_.2B1

And this is Jack Show endorsed material - so you know it's really solid stuff to which you can trust your life.

Protecting my lower back

Take your time, when lifting and carrying. Enlist help, if at all possible.

But if you're trying to move your glider to launch position on a vertical cliff with the wind cranking... Don't worry 'bout getting any kind of help.

You are there to learn flying, not to impress anybody about how strong and fast you are, or to keep pace with the younger pilots.

Thanks for giving him that caution, Red. Big help.

Be realistic (and maybe more) with yourself. Relax and breathe, after each flight; don't rush off instantly after making a flight, because adrenaline will let you hurt yourself, then.

And don't worry 'bout jamming your lower back 'cause you popped the flare a half second too early - that's not an official Jack Show problem.

Getting from here to Air

Good plan! I believe that most people would do better if they get in a lot of tandem flying at first.

Of course what the actual data shows is that tandem flying is the single biggest killer of interest in continuation into a hang gliding career in the history of the sport but you should definitely go with what Red BELIEVES.

Launch and land on wheels, exclusively.

Like the professional hang glider pilots do. When you're doing something ALL THE TIME ya can't afford to take the stupid totally unnecessary risks you force all your students to.

Then, with good flying skills...

The ones Red BELIEVES you'll get with lotsa tandem flights.

...go back for the low hills, and learn to foot-launch.

Why does he need to go to low hills? Why can't he just practice running his glider into a light headwind at a soccer field?

You can still land on wheels then, if the LZ is nice enough.

And if the LZ's NOT nice enough... Don't worry, you'll have perfected your landing flare to the extent that you won't need a surface you can roll on and there won't be any point to even having wheels.

Foot-landings can come after that, when you have a good air-sense.

Yeah, get those down then come back and show the rest of us how to do it.

The "conventional" HG lessons want you to learn it all at once, which is a lot.

'Cept, of course, for turns. And you don't ever wanna be doing significant turns under two hundred feet anyway.

You are welcome to check out my web page, linked below, for more advice. I strongly recommend the full-glider simulator (ground school text) for yourself. You will probably spend a lot more time and money for HG lessons, without it.

Also pay close attention to the "Landing On A Target" section. Ya just never know when you're gonna need to stop safely inside a thirty foot diameter circle.

Best flying near Raleigh

Check out the Wallaby Ranch, FL.

Yeah, that's pretty near Raleigh. Check out the forecast, get on the road by ten or so...

I hear a lot of good stuff about that place, as in, it's worth every penny.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair

Alfie Norks - 2010/06/03 12:24:40 UTC
Brazil

Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there. ) Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. She was trying to dial 911. My friend suffered lower back injury.

And be sure to check out their "Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots" page. Explains all about how it's physically impossible for anyone to get fucked up on an AT launch as long as he has the appropriate precision fishing line installed on his bridle.

HG pilots are seldom very rich...

And pretty much never have brains larger than walnuts.

...so this is high praise indeed.

Much like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

Get fucked, Red. And give Jack's ass an extra warm kiss tonight for protecting yours as well as he does.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33391
dune lessons - pre H1 - should I stay upright?

Andrew Vernon - 2015/09/09 17:35:01 UTC
Bay Area

I took my first hang gliding lesson on that dune...

What dune? There are zillions of them and they change radically over time.

...and I remember them having us fly prone. You should ask them why they instruct that way.

Yeah, why would anybody teach a new student to fly an aircraft in the configuration for which it was certified? The one in which he has the most effective control authority? Crappy pilots should ALWAYS be flown in the crappiest possible control configurations.

At the time I didn't question it because I didn't know any better...

But know that you've had top notch instruction on state of the art equipment...

Andrew Vernon - California - 90486 - H3 - 2011/07/29 - Patrick Denevan - AT FL ST CL FSL

...and know everything about everything.

...but I'm sure they have their reasons.

Me too. Ask them what their reasons are for selling bent pin backup releases and for having their pro toad tandem aerotow instructors fly standard aerotow weak links.

I have a few suspicions, but I'm not going to guess.

Having learned and taught there and become a top notch dune goon...

Jockey's Ridge State Park is a great place to get entry level extended sleds and one of the most difficult and dangerous places on the planet to try to rack up airtime as one progresses from that stage. You can't afford to fuck around with moronic downtube flying 'cause every second and every foot tend to be critical to the success of the flight.

And it's about the only training site on the planet at which foot landing makes any sense. If there's enough air to get any extra time there's enough air to make foot landing a no brainer and reduce turnaround time and it's real hard to do any damage when things are half controlled on soft sand.

But if I were gonna do things over again and could get away with it I wouldn't have the bucket listers and first class students foot landing.

I wouldn't go back to them at your next lesson saying you read such and such on an internet forum and they're doing it wrong.

Why do you think they're not on that internet forum addressing this issue? Too good to mingle with the muppets?

Just ask them why, I'm sure they will explain it.

And then go to Joe Greblo and ask him to show us a video which justifies all that upright only bullshit he perpetrates on everyone.

P.S. You any relation to Paul? Did he ever regain enough brain function to tell anybody just how much good all his foot landing instruction at Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's spawning grounds did him when he "needed" it?

John Fritsche - 2015/09/09 18:09:13 UTC

I heard--and it was MANY years ago--that Kitty Hawk Kites is the only HG school anywhere that immediately teaches all students to fly with their hands on the basetube, on short low training hill/dune flights.

EVERYBODY used to. I was stunned and disgusted when I started seeing this upright only bullshit.

Sounds like that hasn't changed.

What's changed is that The Industry discovered a new way to degrade students and increase the lengths of their dependencies.

I don't think I've ever head an explanation why they rush this step, and I can't think of a good reason for it.

And you also have never heard of the slightest problem resulting from them doing at least this much right.

After many years of flying, I continue to descend on the downtubes right after turning onto final...

So did Joe Julik. Real bummer that he hit that invisible dust devil at just that instant a year minus twenty days ago, donchya think?

...and throughout my rare training hill flights.

Super, John. You suck compared to Steve Pearson and everybody else who stays prone at least until the glider's slowed to trim in ground effect.

Ridge soaring a small ridge is the only time I'm fully prone near the ground.

You mean like at the dunes where Kitty Hawk is teaching?

17-4117
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/14088396670_62d49cbf36_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2932/14295179433_313938b3f9_o.png
23-4810

Fuckin' morons.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33412
Great flight, not so great landing.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/09/13 23:43:12 UTC

Had my first real soaring flight today.

On previous flights I've seen my vario read zero, so I know I was air moving up at least as fast as my sink rate. Today, I saw positive numbers for the first time.

I launched from 2200 ft MSL, peaked at 2440 ft. MSL

Shoulda been on the dunes. Wouldn't have needed to look at a digital display to tell you'd gone up.

...and at one point saw 600+ up!

Total flight was 17.4 minutes. I had plenty of lift to stay up longer, but didn't feel comfortable releasing the base tube with one hand long enough to zip my harness up.

Next time shift to the downtubes. Then you can release one of them with one hand long enough to zip your harness up and there won't be much of a control compromise.

After fifteen minutes of pressing my feet into the boot of the harness my butt and back were getting sore so I came down.

Tow launch with a Tad-O-Link and your harness already zipped up.

Landing was more of a pounding in.

Get used to it.

I'm used to landing in lighter conditions, so my aggressive flair...

Flare.

...into a stiff headwind resulted in a zoom-up and a bent base tube.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33411
Question about aluminum metal fatigue

See how much safer this standup landing practice is making your flights already?

Timothy Ward - 2015/09/14 00:12:29 UTC
Mira Loma

That's generally a result of using groundspeed for flare timing.

Or, hell, just working on your flare timing often does the trick.

In the landing, you'll get down close to the ground and trade off airspeed for maintaining your six inches or foot of altitude.

And then just keep flying it until it settles down on the wheels, right?

That means you'll go from pulling in for speed, to letting the bar out, a moment at trim, then pushing the bar out. This should all be fairly smooth progression.

And don't ever question WHY you're landing this way.

When you've gone past trim, and are pushing out, but the glider starts to sink more, so that you have to push out faster, that's when you can flare.

Or you can just let it settle down on the fuckin' wheels.

The lift vs Angle of attack curve is a pretty straight line, until you get close to the maximum lift (stall) point. Just before maximum lift it starts rounding over, and not producing as much extra lift for each incremental increase in AoA.

And don't worry about what gusts, turbulence, switches are gonna do to this nice textbook description Tim is feeding you. That stuff only exists in the REAL world.

And that's why I feel for that little "sag" in the pitch response after I've gone past trim.

And remember to keep an eye out for some of those large rocks strewn all over the place in that narrow dry riverbed in which you're landing.

If you flare then, you're unlikely to generate enough extra lift to pop you up any significant distance.

Unless you get hit by something nasty...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...get turned downwind, and break your fuckin' neck.

Some people use a timed approach after reaching trim. Either way, paying attention to the bar trim pressures during the landing roundout is an important skill to learn.

Would all these Jack Show assholes be telling you it was if it wasn't?

Now for the rest of your life you get to remember that your first real soaring flight ended in a moderately serious crash because you tried to pull off a stupid, dangerous, totally useless stunt landing in the middle of the biggest flattest putting green anywhere on the continent. And if you'd really HAD to land on your feet you could've just stayed on the basetube and floated to a stop in the headwind you had.

And just zip up the fucking harness next time. What a waste of what you got into this sport to do.
---
Edit - 2015/09/15 10:15:00 UTC

Not Lockout, as I was guessing.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/09/14 10:55:43 UTC

Eagle Rock, Virginia.

North of Roanoke.
37°37'53.22" N 079°49'53.90" W
NW and SE launches, LZs rollable and essentially infinite so the sentiment stands.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33411
Question about aluminum metal fatigue

Robert Kesselring - 2015/09/13 23:34:10 UTC

So I had a hard landing today resulting in a bent base tube.

You bent your basetube. Call it a crash.

It was visibly curved so that the angle between the left down tube and the base tube...

What's another term for "basetube"?

...was different then...

Than. From - actually.

...the angle between the right down tube and base tube, but it was a smooth bend in that there were no no kinks or any other visible faults.

Pretty good for a no-no landing.

It is a round speed-bar style tube with pneumatic wheels.

Pneumatic whats? So you've got them on the basetube? What for? What's the purpose of these "wheels"?

I was able to straighten it by bracing my shoulders in the apex and pressing on the base tube with my foot.

This is the second time I've done this to this base tube.

Keep practicing the same thing over and over. You’re bound to start getting better results sometime fairly soon.

Should I be worried about the structural integrity of the tube?

Better late than never.

I'm also going to closely inspect the apex joint and hang straps, carabiner, and harness straps, as these are the parts that would have transferred the force necessary to stop my mass.

Yeah, pay particular attention to your main and backup straps, carabiner, and harness straps. You probably stressed all those pretty close to capacity.

Any other parts I should pay particular attention to?

Your wheels maybe? Just kidding.

Fred Wilson - 2015/09/14 00:02:02 UTC

I always abide by the rule: Minor bend straighten. Second time replace it.
Unquestionably if there is no cable in the base tube.

Has anybody ever recorded a basetube failing and a cable saving the glider? Or even a basetube failing with nothing to save the glider?

Going Down The Tubes - by Peter Larson
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26044

Preflight Checks by Ricky Tarr
and Hang Glider Maintenance by Mark Dale and Angus Pinkerton
http://www.hpac.ca/pub/?pid=108

Mark and Angus are total dickheads.

If you took your sidewires and basetube off, secured one end of the assembly to a tree and connected a winch to the other, and cranked until something pulled apart do you think it would be the basetube?

The bend you put in it will have ZERO effect on the strength of your glider. A leading edge or cross spar is what's gonna blow first under positive loading.

Mike Badley - 2015/09/14 02:05:04 UTC

The base-tube is not under compression, so it is not likely to have a fail like a downtube.

It's pretty much impossible for it to fail.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it - as long as you can straighten it without putting any kinks in it.

Would you worry about a Davis Link installed on one end of your pro toad bridle?

You are not likely to make it overly brittle by straightening it a few times.

Nobody will tell you that the 'better safe than sorry' route is not the best choice, though - so if you can afford to get it replaced, then by all means...

Nah. Save the money to take care of the arm you're statistically highly likely to break while you're perfecting your flare timing.