Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/21 06:48:01 UTC

Don Arsenault - 2013/11/18 20:51:34 UTC

You should be towing at trim, NOT pushing out. That may be part of the problem with the recent accident there.

When there's a ground based tow, everyone I know, that's not a beginner, pushes out to some extent. I just don't know many folks that don't want to get higher. Admittedly, there can be an unreasonable push out.

Tumble Guy's problem wasn't that he was pushing out to get higher. One thing I'm now wondering is if he wasn't holding a lot of back pressure on the bar and lost it upon reaching for the lanyard.

Just to check, I looked at some of my releases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVNyu-tHPYk


I think I'm okay.

You obviously ARE okay.

Mike Lake - 2013/11/18 23:27:35 UTC

Linlyons interpreted the above as something to do with the number of strings on a 2/3/4 string release and seems to miss the whole purpose of a keel attachment, two point, pilot AND glider system.

Actually, no I did not. I am aware of the two-stage release, and did not confuse it with the 2/3 string release.

No, but the language you used sure helped to muddy the discussion. Yeah, multi-string releases DO actuate in stages but nobody uses that term when referring to them and it's unnecessary, contrary to long established universal convention, misleading.

Pat does not have any of the two-stage releases that I know of.

- Why not? Koch two-stages are pretty much universal for remote start surface tows and that's by far the best available equipment for the job. And you wouldn't have been the subject of huge discussions if you'd have been using one.

- What? You think he may have some that he's keeping from you?

- Bridle/Release systems that aren't total crap are completely unavailable from the mainstream aerotowing industry and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has appointed himself Imperial Wizard of quality control to make sure decent stuff doesn't get into circulation. Does that make it OK to go with that flow?

- Ask Pat if he's ever used a two stage release and:
-- if:
--- so, why did it fall short of the three and two strings he's designated as state-of-the-art equipment
--- not, how he justifies designating his three and two strings as state-of-the-art equipment
-- why competent operations are using two stage releases without any need for Hewett Link and Birrenator compensators

- Also ask Pat to tell you about all the saves he's had because of his use of state-of-the-art Hewett Links and Birrenators and why he hasn't written any magazine articles, put up anything on his website, uploaded any videos, posted anything on any forums reporting and illustrating these miraculous saves and promoting their use to reduce the fatality rates at the shoddy operations just using Koch two stages and heavy weak links.

I think that I'm the only one that incorrectly attached the three string release - at least in Tres Pinos.

- You THINK? They didn't tell you whether or not you were?

- Given that they haven't released one public word on either of these two spectacular operational failures - one catastrophic and both easily potentially lethal - how likely do you think it is that you'd have heard about any past inconsequential failures?

And they don't use that any more.

Oh. So...

- you:

-- think that you're the only one who incorrectly attached the three-string release - at least in Tres Pinos - in however many decades they've been using it

-- are a real asshole...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/02 01:39:55 UTC

That's probably not the best idea in the world. I could be wrong, but he's probably still somewhat upset. He is speaking to me again, but is even more demanding of safety than I remember. He's very good, and when I tow again, he's the operator I'd like to have.

...for screwing that particular pooch

but as a consequence of that ONE INCIDENT they decided that it's so problematic/dangerous that people can't be trained to use it properly/safely and operators can't be counted on to detect issues. And thus they're taking it totally out of circulation and replacing it with something "better".

I believe I said that on the thread about my crash.

You did. Instead of getting up to the conventional norm they went in the other direction - to something cheap and shoddy that they'll be able to get away with as long as everything's going reasonably well.

There are also references to "tow pressure"...

You are correct, tension is the proper term.
And I was relatively good at physics too.

Are you still good enough to predict what's gonna happen to a glider when the Birrenator kicks in?

There is a widespread belief that the weaker the weak-link the better...

In fact, it takes two strands of weak-link...

Sorry, any chance you can express that in pounds for those very few of us who have no idea what the fuck you're talking about?

...to withstand the 'tension' while towing.

- While is towing ANY solo glider - regardless of flying weight, glider capacity, lift to drag ratio?

- And that's all it has to do? Be able to withstand the normal range of tow tensions? If you're never expecting to pull more than two and a half Gs on your glider is it OK to fly with sidewires that are able to withstand three Gs and no more?

Using a static tow, the tension is much greater than it would be in an aero tow.

Than it WOULD BE in an aero? Or IS or CAN BE?

What numbers do you have for aero and where did you get them?

Given that in your winch operation you've got thousands of feet of line out and a power guy watching the glider at all times and able to adjust tension to anything he wants would it be unreasonable to expect spikes and surges to go a lot higher for aero - at least for those not under the protection of good folk like Bobby, Davis, Rooney, Lauren, BHPA?

The real problem is that it's not all that easy to see when a weak link is about to break.

Well it wouldn't break unless the line were jammed and the glider severely locked out, right? There'd be no possibility of it breaking when you have the glider under control and climbing normally, right?

The good news is that it normally breaks near the top of the tow, when the angle between the tow line and the upward force from the glider is greatest.

Or when you're near the top of the tow. Then the tension is quite extreme and it's normal for the weak link to break.

That's beneficial because it allows a more normal release...

Yeah, in hang gliding a weak link is the normal means of a glider releasing from tow. Who ever heard of anyone using a release for releasing from tow? A hang glider release is just a Hail Mary device to give you a remote chance of blowing tow in the remote event that neither your weak link nor hook knife work. It's mostly just there for show and/or its placebo value.

...rather than one when the pilot is only fifty feet off the ground.

What's the big fuckin' deal with a weak link blow only fifty feet off the ground?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U


You just pull in, wait to recover from the stall, push out and land.

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


See? Just like that. Totally manageable, a mere inconvenience.

Referring to you Linlyons as a 'third party' is not intended to be impolite.

I didn't assume you intended to be impolite. It's just easier.

As for "Drummed into my head" there's far too much to learn.

Bullshit.

- None of this is rocket science.

- Unless the instruction sucks - which it very obviously does - you should totally understand and be totally wired into what you're doing at each step before advancing to the next.

I, and all the tow pilots, I presume, have been told to pull the bar in prior to release.

What did those total fucking douchebags tell you, and presumably all the tow pilots, the purpose of the weak link is - and how to calculate the proper number of strands such that number you always wind up with is two?

Sometimes we remember, sometimes other stuff is going on, and releasing sooner seems to be more important than taking more time to pull the bar in.

What if you used a release that allowed you to blow instantly WHILE pulling the bar in? Just kidding.

OH, concerning the two-stage chest release. Beginners who run to take off need few extra things to think about. They're already on overload and don't need more. Once they get better, they launch off the cart...

Yeah, it's always a great training program that starts the beginners off with an overload of things to think about and do and progresses them to less demanding, simpler, easier, safer techniques - if they survive the introductory stuff intact.

...and the tow line goes under the base tube, so there isn't the need for two stages.

No, of course not. Just like an aerotow launch. Route the bridle over or under the bar as you please. Doesn't make any appreciable difference.

One might consider that, while I did mess up the three-line release, I'm not an idiot.

Nobody outside of Mission thought you were - for that anyway. Mission just found it more convenient to send you the message that you were an idiot so as to try to give the impression that they're not idiots for failing to have procedures for preflighting students and equipment for fully dumping line tension in emergencies.

If I thought that the release that I use is really a danger, any more than other stuff that can happen when I fly, I'd be the first to complain.

The release is total crap - not because it's too complex to properly connect and preflight a hundred percent of the time - but because:

- you can't maintain control of the glider while you blow it

- it'll be totally useless in a real emergency and people have been needlessly killed because of this shortcoming (including a guy I mentored for eight years)

- the Koch 2 stage is vastly superior and readily commercially available

At this point, using two loops, it's pretty fool proof.

Ignoring, of course, the facts that:
- you can't maintain control of the glider while you blow it
- it:
-- is totally useless in a real emergency
-- has no load capacity

(And I'm not practicing to be a better fool - really.)

Nah, right now you're as good a fool as need to be to get along just fine with the assholes at Mission and on the Jack and Davis Shows. And you don't seem to be least bit interested in trying to understand what you're doing and getting things right.

[Steve Davy]

Ignoring, of course, the facts that:
- you can't maintain control of the glider while you blow it

That's what the autorelease is for.

- it's totally useless in a real emergency

That's what the parachute is for.

- it has no load capacity

That's what the weak link is for.

You need to get yourself up to speed on Pat's state of the art equipment, Tad.

[Tad Eareckson]

Thanks for the tips but I think I'll pass on that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306 UTC
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/14 02:23:53 UTC

The injured pilot is still in the hospital, under care for his injuries.

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/18 18:30:29 UTC

The truth is, I'm still not over the crash...

I'm not liking what I've been seeing this year with the people who've gotten themselves up to speed on Pat's state of the art equipment.
And I also think I'll wait until after Quest has spent another twenty years perfecting aerotowing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/5198
Waivers...Release of Liability

Peter Birren - 2005/10/18 14:30:35 UTC

Heard last night the FAA cleared the tug and tug pilot of having done anything wrong (other than being a bit overweight).

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/10.135
Hang Glide Chicago suspends operations

Davis Straub - 2006/07/01 09:42:08 UTC

The USHPA brings the hammer down on a flight park that wasn't playing by the rules and was jeopardizing our FAA tandem and towing exemptions (Hang Glide Chicago).

Under its previous owner, Arlan Birkett, Hang Glide Chicago had three fatal accidents over the last two years, including Arlan and his student's death...

http://ozreport.com/9.182
Arlan

...while being towed up tandem behind an inexperienced and unrated tug pilot. The previous death occurred on tow on June 26th, 2004...

http://ozreport.com/9.179
Fatality Report

The experienced pilot was flying a glider new to him, a Moyes Litesport, in the middle of the day, without a fin. The pilot "locked out," and dove into the ground.

Hang Glide Chicago's instructors as of last week were not USHPA certified for tandem (one is a T-1 and the other has no tandem rating) or instruction (as a review of the USHPA database can quickly tell you), contrary to the above statements from Hang Glide Chicago's web site and in violation of the USHPA's exemption from the FAA. In addition, their tug pilot was not USHPA ATP-rated as required by our FAA exemption. This situation obviously jeopardized the USHPA's relationship with the FAA. In addition, it raises concerns about the level of safety practiced at Hang Glide Chicago, given its history. You've also got to wonder how its students get USHPA rated.

Right.

You can fly a tug without a rating, violate the crap out of FAA regulations for the minimum glider weak link and tug weak link relative to the glider, and outclimb the glider, stall it, drop it, and kill two people in smooth evening air. And you haven't done anything wrong 'cause sometimes shit just happens in hang gliding and weak link breaks are mere inconveniences.

While attached to a towline, the glider is covered for third party damage. The pilot and tug pilot must both carry their respective rating/exemption cards. Waivers must be signed by all participants.

Our club waiver was made from one lawyer's writing plus things from other waivers. It also has a little box at the top for those who don't like to read long documents: "If I get hurt, it's my own fault". The same doc is signed by the same pilot every year on multiple lines at the bottom of the page.

Right. There's no fuckin' way a tow driver can be at any fault whatsoever for whatever happens to a glider. Any jerk off the street is perfectly qualified to drive a tug, truck, boat, winch with no qualifications or training and gas, break, climb, dive, turn, dump all he likes 'cause the glider's always perfectly capable of handling any combinations of things the rope, fishing line, air are capable of dishing out. It's just tugs...



...that have difficulty handling power failures. The concepts of bad pin men being able to kill gliders...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...and rope breaks and premature releases being DANGEROUS is SO Seventies.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 02:23:38 UTC

The glider's name is Scott Howard and I am his brother. Scott wants to return to his home in Arizona but neither he nor I have the money to bring him home. We (his family) are trying to raise money to bring him home for healing. If you would like to help send me a message. His picture is included in this post.

Or if you want to help directly or send letters of encouragement you can mail him at:

Scott Howard
PO Box 262
Tonto Basin AZ 85553

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=23358

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 03:32:13 UTC

I can't quite pin down who "Manta_Dreaming"...

Neither can I. And I'd really like to.

...but I know he is one of two people. Either the owner of MSC...

No freakin' way. Pat's far too important a person to condescend to involve himself in discussions with us weekend warrior muppets.

...or his right hand man. Either way he is unnaturally critical of pilot error without considering it is possible that the pilot is not at fault.

Sorry dude, decades ago the hang gliding industry determined that any undesirable outcome of a tow flight is entirely the fault of the guy on the glider end of the string. If he fails to handle any combination of crap that the power guy and his lunatic equipment decide to throw at him while Mother Nature is doing her thing then he was just an accident waiting to happen.

He thinks he knows the truth and he doesn't.

Sorry. Simply not possible for someone who's been doing something for three or four decades to not know any relevant truth.

SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU!!

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 04:09:17 UTC

Wrong, neither.

Paul Hurless - 2013/11/26 05:07:46 UTC

So, who are you, sorbo123?

So how come nobody ever seems to be overly concerned about the identity of "peanuts" when he's running his useless idiot mouth?

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 05:13:13 UTC

I am a close family member who was given the video of what happened from his friends at the site. I'm also the one who's trying to bring Scott home. when the dust settles you'll all know.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 05:29:58 UTC

Hey, why not just post the video for all to see here? Other people have done it in the past for accidents...

Jim Rooney for example. No, wait... We didn't get to see that one - just got to listen to him telling us that if there were an approach to the unhooked launch problem that actually worked - like adhering to USHGA hook-in check regulations - we'd all be doing it already. Never mind.

...it goes a long way towards helping the HG community become a safer place.

Bullshit. We're not seeing any videos showing us new ways to crash. And the best way to crash is to stall the glider near the surface. And the two most common causes of stall crashes near the surface are landing flares and Rooney Link pops. And when you show people scores of the videos illustrating these the responses are always and only all about executing the landing stalls better and how to tie 130 pound Greenspot better so that it breaks more consistently.

Sharing of information with the HG community has gone a long way towards improving safety over the years.

Yeah? Cite:
- something that was learned through shared information that shouldn't have been taught by a competent instructor
- some of our successes

If you can't post it here because of your low post count, send it to me or another member and I'm sure that they'll post the video.

YouTube doesn't care about low post counts.

Many pilots here have recovered from traumatic accidents both from flying and not flying and returned to flying recovering quicker than the doctors ever expected or when the doctors didn't expect a recovery at all. That comes from the passion of pilots to fly and includes myself.

And twenty times as many are never heard from again and quickly forgotten.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 05:35:22 UTC

Scott's wishes are that he sees the video before it is posted publically. If we can raise money to bring Scott home he will see the video and it will be released.

I'm already talking with another user about your suggestion.

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 06:28:48 UTC

Damn, this is not a good intro to the .org but I got to put my foot down.

Oh good...

Ryan Brown - California - 94415 - H1 - 2013/11/17 - David Yount - FL

A highly qualified glider jockey has just appointed himself an official Jack Show spokesman and is about to put his foot down.

Sorbo, do you know how thin the ice you are walking upon?

Not anywhere near as thin as the crap his brother was walking on towards the end of his last flight with Mission Soaring Center.

Scott is suing the HG company that has been a part of his fun for more than four years!

NO! THREE HOURS of pure hang gliding bliss accumulated and he gets all bent out of shape over something as trivial as THIS? What an ungrateful asshole.

And even worse, you are asking for hand-outs to get him home.

Funny I didn't hear that sentiment expressed with regard to Eric Mies who - obviously and by his own admission - totally did it to himself.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 06:37:14 UTC

Let's just say hypothetically I don't know anything. That doesn't change the fact that at this time neither Scott nor his family have any money to bring him home. So yes we are asking for help. You have the right to be skeptical and I don't blame you. You have a right to know why someone is asking for money but nothing says you have to give either... We just want him home.

That being said legal information, like a lawsuit for example, is privileged information. I'm his family and I don't even know that. So how do you?

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 06:49:12 UTC

Thank you Sorbo, you confirmed what I have been suspect on, as soon as the video in question was "withheld".

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 06:53:43 UTC

The video isn't being withheld. It's in waiting. When Scott watches it the community here will be the first to see it publically.

but since we're here what is it that you suspect.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 07:01:26 UTC

Great, a lawsuit.

Buy an antique glider and get hurt.

OH! So that's what it was that put Scott in the hospital for an extended stay. He was stupid enough to buy and fly an antique glider - like my 1989 introed HPAT. So anyone who flies a Mark IV, Pulse, Harrier is an asshole just begging to be killed.

So how come:
- Mission was towing this obvious deathtrap?
- there aren't any:
-- advisories out on flying old HGMA certified gliders?
-- campaigns to get these gliders out of circulation and reprocessed for scrap?

Most of us accept our own responsibility as adults, but looks like not everyone falls into that category.

- Meaning, of course, that the person or operation training and rating the pilot, equipping the glider for towing, and being paid for providing and operating the tow system can have no responsibility whatsoever for anything that happens to the glider.

- This was a fucking Hang One. Here's what the fucking USHGA SOPs state on the issue of fucking Hang Ones:

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/02/07
12. Standard Operating Procedure
02. Pilot Proficiency System
06. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H-1)
-C. Recommended Operating Limitations for Beginner Pilots:

02. It is highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a USHPA Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor.

Scott was adhering to the SOPs and any reasonable interpretation of them strongly indicates that the supervising USHGA official has primary responsibility for the safety of that student pilot. And when was the last time you heard about an instructor either taking responsibility and/or being held accountable for the mangling or death of a student under his direct supervision?

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:08:13 UTC

I still don't know anything about a lawsuit in the respect that Scott hasn't said anything to me about it and we talk every day.

That being said regarding what happened and what led to the incident...

It was not pilot error. You don't have to believe anything I'm saying, there's nothing that says you do. But when Scott sees the video and we post it here you will see. Have patience and a sprinkle of faith that I'm not here just to be jerk and you will see it.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 07:13:23 UTC

You say it's not pilot error, but you also say the pilot hasn't seen the video yet. That makes no sense.

Right. There's no fuckin' way he could have a memory of what happened - maybe a Rooney Link or Birrenator kicking in to increase the safety of the towing operation when the glider was pitched up. If the pilot hasn't seen a video of the incident he's just speculating on what happened - in blatant violation of the Rooney Decree of 2013/02.

Are you a pilot?

- Are any of the Jack Show Members In Good Standing?

- And tell me why/how being a "pilot" would be of the least value in evaluating this incident - especially given that none of the top people in the business seem to have a fuckin' clue what went wrong with Zack Marzec incident or what the actual breaking strength of a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot is.

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 07:14:47 UTC

This is going to sound harsh, BUT... Is Scott in a coma? Sounds like NO. Show him this coveted video!

If you are worried about PTSD, this forum has loads of support...

That's certainly been MY experience - loads of support for the forum against anyone who feels that the forum may not, in fact, be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

...just read the earlier incident reports.

Yeah, there's tons of them.

- Read:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26996
Critique my radial ramp launch

and see the comment from Jim Rowan of Creapstown - sorry Cresapstown - Maryland about how Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's product Bill Priday was "clearly an accident waiting to happen".

- And check out how much progress has been made in implementing the easy fixes which would prevent most of these incidents - including your brother's - from happening.

There are many threads upon threads of support for fallen pilots.

At least twice as many as the vicious attacks on people working for reform.

I know I am a new contributor to the .org, but Sorbo, I dispise any person that takes litigation against a company that has been a part of their joy for years.

Yes. If anyone has pulled a customer up on a string a few times or provided any other service or product that's been bought and enjoyed he should be totally immune from any responsibility, accountability, liability after said service or product blows up in the customer's face. I guess it would be OK for Lenami's next of kin to sue Jon Orders 'cause that was only her first flight and she was too engrossed in clinging for survival to really enjoy much of anything - but if that had been her SECOND flight...

And then to list extra help to cover medical bills et al is dispicable.

Good, Mission Soaring Center Hang One who registered on The Jack Show a month and a day before this post. Do be sure to keep everyone abreast of what's really "dispicable" in this sport.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:22:35 UTC

If you knew what caused the incident you wouldn't need to ask that question. The person who is most accountable has already expressed regret and guilt while admitting his accountability of the incident.

There's a hang gliding first - 'cept maybe for John Borton.

But, to answer your question, no I am not a pilot. I didn't come here to make an accusation but I did come here to defend Scott and not to be a jerk. In that regard there is someone who is not Scott who has privately admitted his accountability while not making it public to anyone else - per the wishes of Scott (who is this person's friend) will remain nameless.

So, if this is accurate, it sounds like some kind of assembly error. So anybody got any ideas what one could do to a Mark IV and/or the towing configuration to get it to tow up fine and tumble right after coming off the line?

P.S. Yeah, this is my first sign of life in a week. Thanksgiving trip to New England, not much free time, wasn't feeling all that great. Much catching up to do.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:25:52 UTC

It was mailed to Arizona which is why Scott hasn't seen it. The request for help is to get him home and nothing else.

fakeDecoy - 2013/11/26 07:33:17 UTC

Jesus Christ people, relax. You're being assholes. Almost nobody shares their crash videos. You really think the crashes you've seen on the internet are more than 0.01% of the ones that happen?

About the same percentage of serious incidents that get reported.

You're the ones that brought up a lawsuit, and you're running with it and accusing Scott of all kinds of shit just because he'd rather rest and chill than go hop on the internet and share his f-up.

How do you know it was HIS fuckup?

Right, hopping on this site would be my first priority. Get over yourselves.

sorbo123, the reason people are so paranoid that Scott is suing is because one more big lawsuit is likely to end the sport of hang gliding in the US.

Good.

Please forgive them.

No way in hell.

And the reason everyone calls it "pilot error" is because we consider virtually every accident to be pilot error in one way or another.

- Who's fault is it when the "pilot" is a Hang One?

- We know from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney that the Pilot In Command of an aerotowed glider is the tug driver. So doesn't that make Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey entirely responsible for Robin Strid's death?

- What was the fault made by Zack Marzec and/or Mark Frutiger on 2013/02/02?

There's a lot of stuff to learn and keep track of.

Especially when everything's just a matter of the opinion of whoever's in charge at any given moment.

Right now is the time for us to help out Scott like pilots are supposed to do for each other.

Yes. Always AFTER the disaster - never before.

sorbo, the pic you posted is pretty good evidence that you are who you say you are, but if there's anything else you can share to help with that, and/or a PayPal address, you might get more donations. Good luck with everything, and have Scott post when he's able to let us all know how he's doing.

I'll tell you how he's doing... Really crappy compared to how he was doing at the time of his last launch at Mission Soaring Center.

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 07:41:15 UTC

And you know what caused the incident how??????????????????

Yeah sorbo. Don't you know that ever since the afternoon of 2013/02/02 it's been impossible to pin down the causes of any incident that would reflect poorly on The Industry - regardless of how fucking obvious they are?

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:42:25 UTC

If PayPal were available to us it would be fine but we don't. Like I said everyone here has the right to be skeptical about it. I guess if you do then it will be an act of faith. If it makes you feel better you can right a check in his name or drop it off to him personally at San Jose Regional on McKee and Jackson. Thank you Decoy for your post.

Scott has expressed a specific desire to return to hang gliding he wanted the community to know that.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:48:42 UTC

Scott, a witness, and Scott's friend (who will continue to remain nameless). That's three people who are all pilots and were all a part of the same conversation. The day after the incident the two who are not Scott gave it as reason without discussing what happened in the air, and when Scott had the four tubes taken out of his throat repeated the same thing. The cause and the incident will be reported together when the video is posted. Even if you don't believe me it's not like you can't keep checking back. Like I said... have patience.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 07:49:05 UTC

Individuals can do PayPal no problem - I send money that way without problem or cost to friends all the time.

The Hang Gliding community is small.

Yeah. There's a reason for that.

People tend to know each other and talk to each other.

As long as they're all on the same page. Anyone who starts making sense gets ignored, deleted, banned.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 07:54:45 UTC

If I set up one for Scott would you donate?

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 08:02:17 UTC

Let me get this straight:

First you accuse me of being someone I am not.

Which wouldn't have happened if you'd posted using your actual identity.

Than you proceed to rant childishly against me.
You also PM me, calling me a lair.

He called you a hole in the ground?

And now you expect me to throw money at you?

No, he ASKED you if you would donate money to the guy who got demolished at Mission's operation.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 08:06:08 UTC

That wasn't my point. And I don't expect anything. Take it as you wish do with it what you wish.

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 08:06:10 UTC

There you have it.

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/26 08:08:05 UTC

I think the guy who crashed...

Or WAS crashed.

...was indeed named Scott. I didn't want to mention any names before the fact.

Why be angry? There's a human being in pain. I say have some empathy and help a brother out if you can. It could happen to any of us, pilot error or not.

It's close enough to being impossible for somebody to get hurt like that without some massive and obvious errors to be made that the difference isn't worth mentioning.

I'll try to give Scott a visit at the care facility.

gluesniffer - 2013/11/26 08:13:17 UTC

I'll donate if Scott doesn't sue.

So there's no degree of gross negligence that a glider towing operation could have committed to justify them from being held financially accountable. If Mission sends somebody up on a two-string release that can't be accessed in an emergency and locks up under light load then hits the gas while the glider's in a low level lockout... Tough shit, dude. It's a dangerous sport and you signed the waiver.

Wish him the best of recoveries and I hope the facts emerge so that we all may learn from this unfortunate incident.

Whatever facts emerge I one hundred percent guarantee you there will be nothing to learn.

I got a fifteen minute flight there, truly a great setup.

Yeah, right.

Paul Hurless - 2013/11/26 08:24:18 UTC

Was Scott flying without medical coverage?

The problem wasn't that he was flying without medical coverage. The problem was that he was whipstalling, tumbling, and slamming in without medical coverage.

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/26 08:24:40 UTC

Agree100% Lets create a fund for Scott that doesn't include litigation.

How 'bout we start writing sentences that would pass muster in the third grade and make some kind of sense?

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 08:26:38 UTC

No, he did not have insurance. Still doesn't.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 08:29:27 UTC

I don't understand pilots who do this. Personally I don't like to get out of bed without medical insurance.

But you understand "pilots" who hook up to towlines with "releases" that can't be accessed in emergencies and won't function under load and install Rooney Links and Birrenators which are guaranteed to dump them into whipstalls when they're standing on their tails - and hang gliding schools that teach this as standard operating procedure.

Paul Hurless - 2013/11/26 08:32:27 UTC

Then why was he participating in a risky sport like hang gliding? Taking part in something that has the potential for serious injury or worse without making sure you have something to fall back on if the worst happens is poor headwork at best. We see this happening far too often.

Are you so well covered that you'll be patched up as best as possible and taken care of for the rest of your life if your Rooney Link increases the safety of your towing operation and leaves you even more of a vegetable than you are now?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Erik Boehm - 2013/11/26 08:50:15 UTC

There are a number of issues:

There almost always are.

#1) This is the internet, and there have been scammers on the forum before.

The whole fuckin' forum's a scam.

You are asking for money, and giving no information that allows us to verify your story.

Everything I've been looking at checks out well.

We've got a first name that one other person here sort of confirms... thats not really enough.

For whom?

#2) You accuse people on here of being patsies for MSC, without evidence.

Anybody who let them walk after the Lin Lyons incident is a an MSC shill.

FWIW, most (all) accidents are pilot error in some way - even if that error was lauching when conditions were such that they should have stayed on the ground.

- A competent tow operation won't launch people when conditions are such that people should have stayed on the ground. Such incidents are damn near nonexistent - and when they DO happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIHfVnuNX0Y


...the operators tend not to be regarded kindly - especially when the crashee is a student (and even more especially when the student is a cute chick).

- Scott was trained and rated as a Hang One by Mission - entirely. As far as I'm concerned Mission is somewhere around 99 percent responsible for anything that happens to such an individual under their supervision.

It was his glider, right? not MSC's?

So? Any tow operator - especially a commercial one - has a responsibility to ensure that what's being hooked up to the other end of his towline - pilot, glider, tow equipment - is airworthy. Some bozo shows up with an early Seventies vintage standard with a Broyles tow bar and flying instructions he picked up for twenty-five bucks at a garage sale and gives Mission ten bucks to haul him up to fifteen hundred. You don't think there should be some negligent homicide charges filed?

Tow line breaks are "common" and not prima facie evidence of negligence...

BULLSHIT.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Towline breaks can be and have often been just as deadly as sidewire failures. And just 'cause 33 years ago this month some lunatic submitted an article to USHGA proclaiming that towline breaks were actually GOOD things and, with USHGA's idiot compliance, getting untold tens of thousands of total morons to use towline components that pop every fourth or fifth flight doesn't make them OK.

THIS:

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/18 18:30:29 UTC

In fact, yesterday I had the weak-link break (again) but I wasn't towing as aggressively.

is OVERWHELMING evidence of negligence and incompetence.

(I'm not sure if there was such a break, or if the pilot released).
If the pilot released, then I can't see how its MSCs fault.

So a school putting one of its students in over his head wouldn't be its fault?

If the line broke, given that is something one should be prepared for, I still wouldn't blame MSC.

- Yes. One SHOULD be prepared for it. But if a Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor wasn't able to be prepared for it well enough to survive how can you expect a Hang One to be prepared for it?

- So you think there's a good chance that Mission didn't adequately train Scott how to be prepared for a line break before sending him up on full-bore tows? Wouldn't THAT be negligence on MSC's part?

- Anybody who's confident that he can safely recover from any stall - especially one involving being popped off tow - is a total asshole in desperate need of a rating revocation. Much more so if he thinks someone else should be able to.

- A line break increases the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD. So why does anybody need to "be prepared for" one? That's like saying that you need to "be prepared for" your brakes working, parachute opening, life raft floating. Are you trying to make this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow?

- How come all these schools are always singing their own praises about their outstanding safety records when they get long strings of serious crash free flights but when somebody slams in it's always entirely the fault of the "pilot"? If they're gonna play that game how come these long unbroken strings aren't the fruits of the outstanding abilities of their patrons?

From the description, it just sounds like his AoA was too high when tension on the line dropped.

OK, let's make that assumption. That's a pretty good one 'cause that's EXACTLY and OBVIOUSLY the situation that got Zack Marzec killed - courtesy of his pro toad bridle and Rooney Link in combination with the thermal lift he was hoping to find - ten months minus a day ago.

MSC didnt control his AoA, he did.

- So here's what Steve Wendt, who's...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...exceptionally knowledgeable (hell, he's the one who signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating), has to say on that issue on Wills Wing's scooter tow video:

http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/index.asp
WW Scooter Towing Resources

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

So why would MSC abruptly cut the power on a Hang One with its nose pointed up?

- So why do you think Zack Marzec didn't control his AoA very well?

#3) Its natural to want to blame someone else, and its hard to hear that it was his fault, but based on the evidence presented here, that does seem to be the case.

Bullshit. Hang glider pilots are all egomaniacs and blame themselves at every opportunity regardless of how crappy their instruction and/or equipment is. When one of them blames someone else it's a real good bet that there's a damn good reason.

All we have to go on are the reports here, Manta came to his conclusion not because of an affinity for MSC (I have none btw, years back my dad had a sort of falling out with Denevan [owner of MSC] and a somewhat strained relationship since then)...

Wanna tell us about it? Maybe your dad was on the right track and that exchange could be relevant to this discussion.

...but because of the information presented here.

Stating that something SEEMS to be the case falls far short of a CONCLUSION, dude. And anybody who's come to a CONCLUSION about what exactly precipitated this situation based upon the information made available here is a total moron.

Don't accuse people of being basically corrupt, because they form logical conclusions from the evidence presented.

We KNOW beyond any doubt that EVERYONE in any position of control/authority in US hang gliding is basically corrupt. There's no way in hell crap like the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden and Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" articles could be published if they weren't.

If there is evidence to the contrary, present it, or accept (for the time being) that they will continue to say what they are saying until evidence to the contrary is presented. You can't have it both ways.

A Mission trained and rated Hang One got towed up to six to eight hundred feet in nothing conditions, whipstalled right after separation, tumbled, smashed down, and was terribly injured. Unless Scott was an epileptic, kept that information from Mission, and suffered a seizure at the instant of his release there's no fuckin' way that Mission isn't primarily responsible for this one.

It is very reasonable to be skeptical of people that say "I have evidence, but I won't show it"

OK. So are we the least bit suspicious about the fact that Mission's staying quiet as a clam about this one?

If I were Mission and had been doing my job right I'd be making public every scrap of information I had about the incident, posting the videos I had made documenting Scott's training progress and this particular tow, and saying, "We thoroughly trained him for towing at this level, provided him the best equipment possible, ran a thorough basic preflight check at hook-up, and towed him safely - as you can see in this video. However..."

All the information we've been getting from various sources is checking out consistency-wise... So how come Mission's been dead silent for the three weeks since the incident?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/26 09:24:38 UTC

I must speak up. I flew without medical coverage and had an accident. I could have lied and a doctor would have put a pin in my arm and got me back in flying shape.

Wild guess... Hands on the downtubes blowing a foot landing on a putting green primary?

I went through HELL at the hospital including having the bean counters come after me within days for injuries I did not have. I paid EVERY DAMN BIT of the bills I incurred, drove myself to work with one arm on codeine and completed my design tasks on time.

I got stuck in my car when I dropped my keys and reached through the steering wheel, that could have killed me. And I had to wait in line behind immigration criminals to see a doctor, who I could easily have sued for malpractice, having a splint that was way too short. My bone fused poorly.

The thing is the skills I learned from the owner of MSC and the associated club, SAVED MY LIFE, when the shit hit the fan!!!

- Wanna tell us about them?

- So are these secret skills that one is only privy to if one is favored by Pat Denevan or is a member of Wings of Rogallo? How many people do you estimate have died because they hadn't been so privileged before the shit hit the fan?

I am more inclined to help him with any legal fees, because he did me great favors, including helping me sell my gear when I decided to give it up for awhile.
Not only that, the man, completely behind my back, helped me get jobs through connections in the HG community.

The owner of MSC has seen alot in his VAST amount of time in this sport, and has made a career of making this sport safer.

- And has...
-- published so many valuable articles in the magazine
-- weighed in on so many discussions to identify scum like Rooney, Davis, Ryan, Jack as being incompetent lying pieces of shit

- Name ONE of his accomplishments.

Things can happen in this sport...

Yeah. They can. But:
-- they tend not to to people who know what the fuck they're doing
-- shit just happens sometimes incidents are virtually - if not totally - nonexistent
-- this was no way in hell a shit just happens category incident

...and that can be very real and very painful. If you do not realize that, at an adult level you have no buisiness taking lessons, or flying at all.

- Try learning to spell "business" with the correct number of "i"s before posting stuff.

- When someone starts taking lessons he isn't expected to know shit.

- The hang gliding industry is entirely geared to convincing everyone it gets or hopes to get into its clutches that hang gliding is just as safe as croquet and that the people who get killed or seriously fucked up are all total morons. People:

-- break arms trying to do no wind standup landings on putting greens because they didn't spend enough time on the training hill perfecting their flare timing

-- launch unhooked because they aren't diligent about doing hang checks

-- stall into the ground when their Rooney Links increase the safety of the towing operation because they let their noses get too high or don't react quickly enough

-- lock out and slam in they think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over

- You show me on Pat's website where he states that you can go up on one of his tows in dead air and wind up with a totally shattered pelvis 'cause this is hang gliding, dude, and sometimes shit just happens.

Just look what Pat did for Rotor!

Just look at what Rotor did to himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFadjwZgmU

05-4321c

07-4625c

08-4923c

10-5024c


and continues to try to do to himself again:

01:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NITMQkOrm-Y

If it were not for this Man, and others Hang Gliding would have been outlawed long ago.

Bullshit. Hang Glide Chicago, Lockout, Quest Air, Cloud 9, USHGA have clearly demonstrated that anybody can get away with any shit he feels like.

I've been to the hospital and seen my flying buddies in that condition, and lost one of the best of them.

So you're saying that they wouldn't have been in that condition or dead if hang gliding had been outlawed? Or maybe they just didn't have a chance at learning the secret skills you did.

No medical and taking up a risky sport that can kill or maim you if you, equipment, or other such thing happen fucks you up?

- You can get just as fucked up taking a stroll on the sidewalk.

- So you think there's a strong possibility that this could be an equipment issue? And you believe Pat when he says he uses state-of-the-art equipment?

That's just stupid! I know, I made that mistake. And paid the price, and learned from it.

Did you learn that you'd have been just fine rolling it in on the wheels? Just kidding.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 19:59:00 UTC

Have patience, the doctor says Scott will be released in a week plus on top of that we need to get him back to Arizona. Keep your eye here and you'll see the video in time. That came directly from Scott and the doctor. I've already told you all what hospital Scott is at and you can believe me or not. I care if you do because Scott means everything to me but I can't make you believe me.

I've been defensive and I'm sorry but I promise it's all for Scott.

Take what you will of that.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 20:07:38 UTC

if i'm wrong I'll apologize later, but this reeks of a scam

you haven't so much as given your name
promises of things being seen in the future, and a request for money via cash or check.

Hey Jason... What's THIS:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/01

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

reek of? How 'bout:

http://www.ushpa.aero/safety.asp
USHPA - Safety Articles

Fatality Reports
2013/02/02 - Zack Marzec

Zack Marzec (27), an H-4 Pilot with Aero Tow and Tandem Aero Tow proficiency as well as Advanced Instructor and Tandem Instructor appointments, and a USHPA member since 2009, suffered fatal injuries when when his glider tumbled during an aero tow launch. During the launch, at an altitude of 150 AGL, the pilot encountered an invisible bullet thermal which pitched the nose up, causing the weak link to break. Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice. The pilot and glider's leading edge hit the ground simultaneously. The pilot was utilizing his own pro-tow style tow harness, this own high performance glider with VG on, and was not wearing a full face helmet.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 20:16:33 UTC

I spoke with Scott this morning about posting the video. He told me not to but for those of you that were there I can tell you this much to establish some small measure of credibility.

You're not hang gliding industry - otherwise you wouldn't have to make much of an effort.

I don't know his name but the individual who picked up the camera had a scruffy beard and a "Borderlands" game logo T-shirt who showed the ambulance and the glider. The glider was sitting front and left of the driver side of the ambulance. The guy with the Borderlands T-shirt handed the camera off to Scott's friend who was wearing what I think was spandex. It had some sort of sports on them.

This implies that I was either there or that I have the video... and I wasn't there.

I hope this helps.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 20:22:29 UTC

so what is your name?

How 'bout gluesniffer? I could use him.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 20:25:38 UTC

FWIW, people who work in hospitals - be them doctors, nurses or attendants for example - have been known to run scams in the past.

So? We've got tons of USHGA Directors, rating officials, flight park operators, instructors, tug drivers running them in the present.

I'm not saying that this is one, but you never know.

It's becoming pretty obvious that this one isn't.

sorbo123 - 2013/11/26 20:39:22 UTC

First I'm going to eat my crow and apologize to Manta_Dreaming. I owe you an apology and I'm sorry for what I said.

Secondly my name is Thomas Robert. I hope that helps.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 20:44:12 UTC

you profess to be his brother and then provide a name that doesn't match his?
can't use paypal
can't provide any proof of anything
want cash or check mailed to an address in AZ and your so called request for credibility is based on a report of a guy in a "scruffy beard"

checkbook firmly closed over here...

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 20:46:42 UTC

The report wasn't from the guy with the scruffy beard.

I was describing what I saw in the video and indirectly asked that those who were at the site to verify the information I described was accurate.

Tim Dyer - 2013/11/26 21:09:24 UTC

And a P.O.BOX to top it off.

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 21:15:37 UTC

if you are within reasonable driving distance of Regional Medical Center of San Jose go see for yourself... he's in room 501B.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 21:18:33 UTC

now you want people to drive to SJ to verify your story?

I'm in CO...

The state where doing a hook-in check just prior to launch is dangerous because it gives a false sense of security.

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 21:19:37 UTC

i did say "reasonable distance"

But Jason's a total asshole so that's the sorta response you gotta expect.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 22:09:03 UTC

funny, how one can't just show him on a laptop where he sits...

Erik Boehm - 2013/11/26 22:09:52 UTC

Wasn't he taken away in a helicopter?

I don't often hear people refer to medevac helicopters as ambulances (moslty people use that term for wheeled vehicles), and you do refer to a driver side...

Now I know at places like Ed Levin, an Ambulance may come, but be unable to reach the person due to the terrain, and a heli is needed.. but hollister is flat flat flat....
If an ambulance was there, why would he be helicoptered out?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/8918
Martin Apopot Status

Mark DeMarino - 2010/01/18 00:04 UTC

Bobb made a quick assessment and called 911 who responded to scene with at least 4 ambulances, 3 support vehicles and 2 law officials. EMT were on scene in less than 7 minutes. Heli service arrived 3-5 minutes later.

And Martin was in a helluva lot better shape than Scott was. (If I recall correctly he refused emergency transport and had Al Hernandez drive him to the hospital.)

If you speak with your brother, you should know not to refer to HG pilots as "gliders"

And you should know not to refer to tow force as "tension" - "pressure" is the proper term.

That would be like calling motorcyclists "motorcycles"

Fuck that.

- Only a small fraction of a percent of the people who fly hang gliders are actual pilots.

- There's nothing wrong with refering to a motorcyclist as a motorcycle - as in: "The motorcycle was cut off by the pickup."

- It's perfectly clear what's being talked about when people who fly gliders are referred to as gliders - as in: "The glider didn't see the Cessna until it was practically on top of him."

People who are real insistent on being called hang glider PILOTS tend to be pretentious assholes.

We're still waiting on an explanation as to why your last name doesn't match your brother's last name.

If he were a scammer wouldn't he be using a matching name? Seems to me like this issue adds to his credibility.

Is one of you whipped? didja get married and take your wife's name?

Who the fuck gives a rat's ass? What would it have to do with anything, dickhead?

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 22:17:24 UTC

First responder was an ambulance and it parked as close to him as possible but then the helicopter came. I speak with him every day - that doesn't mean I know your terminology.

Lemme fix that first sentence for you to make it acceptable to Erik and the other pretentious Jack Show assholes:

First responder was an ambulance driver who was driving his ambulance and he parked as close to him as possible but then the helicopter pilot came with his helicopter.

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/26 23:08:25 UTC

if you really wanted him home, you'd be a hell of a lot more convincing

Try something along this line, Tom:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Crap like that always works great on hang glider shitheads.

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 23:10:00 UTC

without showing you the video what can i do to convince you.

Fuck him. He's not worth talking to.

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/26 23:27:49 UTC

For what it's worth, I just visited Scott at the hospital. I chatted with him for about half an hour, during which time Tom actually called. I spoke to Tom for a moment, and he does sound like a human being.

I did not discuss the details of the accident with Scott. I didn't want to get involved with that, and I prefered to talk about more cheerful topics. Scott is bored and lonely, and would surely appreciate a friendly visit if anyone has the opportunity.

There was a question about ambulances earlier in this thread. What I saw was this: First an ambulance arrived, then a firetruck. They both drove to the site of the crash, out in the field. Some time later a helicopter arrived.

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/27 00:30:05 UTC

Thank you for visiting him, we appreciate your kindness.

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/27 00:46:40 UTC

Completely outstanding, Sir!
I know very well how these recover things go, and going that alone can be.
If he is up for chatting on the phone, PM me.

Got a guitar to sell, and don't see any reason not to pass along some of that, as long as it's legit.

Fuck the video, seen enough, and had enough of certain mentalities that just want to express their alleged superiority based on their own narcissism.

Greg Laabs - 2013/11/27 00:55:16 UTC

I can confirm that this is an accurate description of what would be on the video. I was the one that found the camera and that is indeed what I was wearing. The camera was still recording when I found it so it would have recorded me finding the camera and eyeing it before handing it off to Scott's friend at the scene.

Furthermore, my beard has, on occasion, been referred to as "scruffy."

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/27 01:45:59 UTC

The reason for the helicopter was probably that the San Jose hospital was the better place for Scott to go, and, by ambulance, it's a long (more than an hour), uncomfortable ride away. The helicopter likely both saved time and reduced the risk of more damage.

If there are lawsuits involved, that might, at least in part, be the hospital's doing. It is unfortunate that Scott didn't have medical insurance, but there have been times when I didn't either. It wouldn't be unreasonable for Scott to have mentioned that he had a video, and for the hospital to realize that if he had no insurance, they would be out quite a bit of money, and do what they could to preserve their options for a lawsuit.

I do hope that Scott recovers. I'm pretty sure that if I'd suffered the injuries that I've heard described, I'd quit hang gliding.

You might not have had much of a choice.

I might add that when I crashed, I posted the video pretty much right away. I've licensed it to a marketer, with the stipulation that the hang gliding community be allowed to use it without any charge.

Define "hang gliding COMMUNITY". Lemme tell ya sumpin', Lin... Hang gliding communities are really dangerous entities. You really don't wanna be trusting your life to people who obviously don't know what they're talking about but get along with each other really well.

I'd seen video of a whip-stall and knew it was dangerous. I'd heard of, but not seen, video of a tumble. Now that I have seen a tumble video, and have been in a situation where I nearly crashed, I'm more than a little concerned. I do wonder how it could be someone else's fault, unless someone else messed up the link...

The WHAT?

...to the tow line. I've read that people at Waddell Creek have tumbled, and while I was somewhat concerned then, now it's downright frightening.

Are you frightened enough to look at the Zack Marzec fatal whipstall and tumble, ask yourself how well you'd have fared in his situation, thought about what you could do to best minimize your possibilities of getting into that situation, and wondered why Quest, Davis, Rooney, Trisa, Pat, USHGA have offered absolutely nothing in the way of recommendations?

Thomas Richard - 2013/11/27 06:02:32 UTC

Scott broke his femur in two places and it had to be permanently bolted together. On top of that the bone doctors had to rebuild both sides of his pelvis from the ground up. His pelvis was destroyed beyond all recognition and the doctors had to bring in a full pelvis model just to make sure that they could even attempt a full rebuild. His entire pelvis is covered in titanium plates and when I checked the helicopter bill today (I have a copy of the bill from the helicopter company) I can only imagine how much the hospital bill is. We are working on getting Scott Medicaid when we get him home but we still need help with that getting him home that is...

I keep saying that everyone of you has the right to be skeptical but I'm asking you to take an act of faith in helping me get him home where his family and friends can take care of him... that's all. and thank you to all who have helped out so far or are willing to help us in this endeavor...

It takes human beings to help human beings and if you're here talking about this then I know you are as human as I am.

gluesniffer - 2013/11/27 06:07:28 UTC

The hospital is going to sue MSC? I didn't think this is how it works. I could be wrong. If this was the case every instructor would make sure each of their students have insurance before teaching. Right? The hospital will try to recoup from the injured pilot, as they should.

What if the instructors made sure they knew what they were talking about and utilized the best equipment and procedures possible in order to minimize the likelihood of something like this happening?

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/27 06:19:50 UTC

Not sure what to do.
Is there a plan to get Scott home?
Plane? Medical transport?
It would be good if they decided on something, rather than just see how much money they can get, and then decide.
I'd assume that he has titanium plates holding him together.
And I assume that some or most of the tubes have been removed.
What support would be needed to transport him?

I don't think it's a scam, but they certainly could be more organized.
I'm not sure why they don't post the video - "Scott hasn't seen it yet" doesn't seem a reasonable explanation.
Someone could just get a lap top and he could look at it right there at the hospital.
I talked to Pat, Saturday, I think. He told me what had happened to Scott, and didn't seem upset.

So how come he didn't post what happened to Scott?

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/26 09:24:38 UTC

The owner of MSC has seen alot in his VAST amount of time in this sport, and has made a career of making this sport safer.

Didn't feel like this incident was important enough to be worth the time?

That could be because a lawsuit hadn't been filed, or maybe he understood the circumstances and didn't blame Scott, or maybe he was simply particularly composed.

Edit - 2013/11/27 06:28:50 UTC

I just read the description of his injuries. Much worse than I'd thought.
However, it's way to soon to decide what will happen with a lawsuit.

Thomas Richard - 2013/11/27 06:22:08 UTC

Negligence on any person or parties is (at least at this time) irrelevant.

Maybe as far as the immediate situation you're dealing with. But not if other flyers are at the same risk Scott was for want of understanding why this incident happened.

Scott's safety and well being is the most important part of this conversation and I want to make sure that Scott has a home to come to as well as getting him home safe to recover.

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/27 06:43:54 UTC

As one who had volunteered my time, in an effort to pay forward what others had done for me, only to receive ZERO, ZIP, NADA calls from my "flying buddies" after a week, just some guy asking for an observer, when I had no way to get toilet paper to even wipe my ass, and could barely zip up my pants to go to work leaves me a bit jaded.

That being said, I would like to be the better man and help, but I just burnt the crap out of my 1970s Kenmore dryer.

Anyone know a good man without papers, who works cheap?

Sorry for the vent, and DO appreciate the opportunity to help! Gotta talk with Pat, first. We'll get through this!!!

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/27 06:53:16 UTC

Well Phoenix, been there done that (except for the avacodo dryer). Difference for me was that people like Pat called. So I remember that, and when people go after Pat, I remember that too. But that's just the way I am.

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/27 07:02:53 UTC

A man of experience who knows the color of a particular zeitgeist! Yeah, part of it for me used to be how callous some people seemed, after these tragic events, and is now the realization that they have "been there, done that", and to make a good rhyme, "That's how I like to remember Pat".

Jason Boehm - 2013/11/27 14:49:12 UTC

Well, Tom, I apologize. there is a little help in the mail.

Thomas Richard - 2013/11/27 19:03:21 UTC

The physical therapist showed up while I was talking to him so he had to let me go but he's in good spirits. He got his laptop up and running yesterday in the hospital (they finally moved him out of the ICU). I asked him if he read this thread and he said he saw the last page but he doesn't want to weigh in till he's had time to read the whole conversation. So maybe he'll chime in today or tomorrow but he said it depends on how his therapy makes him feel.

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/27 19:26:06 UTC

Scott drives a big-rig around the country.
I'm pretty sure he hasn't flown anywhere other than in Tres Pinos.
Being a relatively new Hang 2, there just aren't many places that he can fly without instructor mentoring.

- According to USHGA he's a relatively new Hang One.
- The instructor mentoring he got at Tres Pinos didn't appear to do him a whole lotta good.

Not sure how he first trained with MSC, but it's a good place to train.

Sure Lin, if you say so. (Especially compared to all the other places at which you've trained.)

He does short-pack his glider to fit into the truck.
Haven't talked to him about it, but it costs $30/month to store it at the field.
His truck is parked at the training field - or was a week or so ago.
I presume that it'll stay there until he can drive it away.

Thomas Richard - 2013/11/27 19:29:45 UTC

The truck is "leased" from Prime, Inc. The truck will be repossessed by Prime but we have it on good authority from Prime managers that he is welcome back to drive when he recovers... that's good new at least.

Lin Lyons - 2013/11/28 17:27:24 UTC

I visited Scott Wednesday for a bit.
He'd be happy to have more visitors, but seems pretty up-beat, considering.
He's talking about getting another harness and glider and flying again, although not towing.

He didn't get hurt towing. He got hurt right after he stopped towing.

Scott Howard (hang53) - 2013/11/28 18:44:36 UTC
Tonto Basin, Arizona

This is Scott, the pilot that crashed. i getting better every day. i get my staples pulled out today. btw I want to Wish all Who clebrate a happy Tahnksgiving. Thank you all who are helping me through this.

Scott Howard - 2013/11/28 18:53:51 UTC

for those wondering about short packing a mark 4, the one i bought from MSC...

What?

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/26 07:01:26 UTC

Great, a lawsuit.

Buy an antique glider and get hurt. Most of us accept our own responsibility as adults, but looks like not everyone falls into that category.

MISSION sold you the deadly antique glider that almost got you killed? Any comment, Manta?

...had the short pack option. a pin with a saftey ring holds the leading edge tip in palce. remove this and part of the leading edge can come out like a big batten.
when i sched lessons i would get to the flying site as early as poss. because i'm very meticulous in setting it back to long pack. and lin, you are right in that i have not sought instruction anywhere else. i have been loyal to MSC in that regard.

Dan Johnson - 2013/11/28 21:10:43 UTC

Well, you are in very good hospital, they treated me well when I was run over on my motorcycle. Some of us know very well, how the recover can be worse than the accident, but far better than the worse case scenario.

You got a damn good bro, for coming on this forum and asking for help!

I have known most of the people at MSC for many years, and there are none better.

In the hang gliding industry... Quite possibly. Not saying much though.

They helped me, so I'm gonna help you, some way. I was thinking of visiting down that way in the spring, but first let's get you home.

We got a lot to be thankful for in your case! Give you a call later!