http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33504
Another fatal accident
NMERider - 2015/10/13 01:07:15 UTC
Your video is excellent. It shows how unforgiving your LZ can be.
Ground in general can be unforgiving. Name some highly trafficked brain dead easy LZs that haven't their shares of death and destruction.
With a good drag chute you can avoid having do the radical maneuvers to get into the slot.
This STRIP - it's not a slot - is, for all intents and purposes, infinite in length. This David Stevens turns onto final with tons of runway squandered behind him and stops with tons of runway left over in front of him.
It will also put your feet on the ground several times faster without excess airspeed.
Nobody's ever needed to at Hyner. And stall speed is still stall speed.
Earth Magnet - 2015/10/13 01:15:18 UTC
Central Pennsylvania
Some good memories: Jesse was on my wire the first time I flew Hyner, my second solo high flight. He's shown me a lot of thermals, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can say that. I owe my absolute altitude record to him.
Super. Nobody's playing for keeps with that crap.
He was a lot of fun to fly and hang out with.
Yeah, name some glider people who aren't.
Very funny, beyond trustworthy, and a great pilot.
Obviously fucking not.
Davis Straub - 2015/10/13 01:40:59 UTC
Sounds like the LZ has become a hazard.
How much more of a hazard than the...
...Quest LZ?
I'm always looking for ways to make competitions safe.
Put the barrel of a Glock Nine Millimeter in your fuckin' mouth and pull the fuckin' trigger.
Dave Hopkins - 2015/10/13 02:28:27 UTC
I heard the pilot had taken a few yrs off and was getting back into flying. He was high on approach and was doing S turns in the slot to lose altitude. I guess that is why he was only 35' up when he hit the tree.
Yeah, that would do it. And none of the motherfuckers who were there and know exactly what happened are contradicting you.
It's a tough LZ. Very unforgiving of a high approach.
Bullshit. You gotta be totally clueless to fuck up an approach at that LZ.
I hate flying a slot LZ . They are almost always turbulent and it is hard to know if we are going to snag a tree. We have to look down the middle of the slot regardless of how much we are getting rolled and yawed. The slot at hyner is curved so that complicates things.
Do yourself and the people who fly there big favors by not flying there.
There is a175' slot at Wurtsboro glider port just south of here. I have made the mistake of come down through it with my VR . You get rolled around in there and you do the right thing which is to look where you want to go. You know you are close to those 100' trees but all you can do is to fight to stay in the middle.
Now I always make sure I am over the slot before I get below the trees.
Hell, even if you're not you can always use your glider as a crumple zone.
At Hyner you don't have that option.
Bullshit.
May Jesse quickly rise to the high heaven
I'm sure he will. God's really into religious people and hang gliding has always been the most super religious of all aviation flavors.
Rodger Hoyt - 2015/10/13 17:06:30 UTC
That's a fundamentally flawed landing field. Too narrow, too much tree rotor.
Bullshit. And there has been ZERO accounting that rotor was the slightest issue in this one.
I wouldn't go near that even as an emergency bailout (especially with a 42-foot span rigid).
The more information one keeps getting on this LZ the better it keeps looking.
It's just a matter of time until another accident there.
1. Another "accident"?
2. We just had an "accident" at Ridgely on 2015/06/20. And about all we know about the cause was that Bertrand was on an aircraft that appeared to be for recreational purposes. So isn't it just a matter of time until we have another accident everywhere if we don't stop flying aircraft that appear to be for recreational purposes?
S-turns are NOT the way to get into a field like that.
Name some fields that they ARE the way to get into.
They require too much time with the glider's nose pointed cross or even down wind - also too much turning, which really increases the possibility of a mistake.
The mistake has already been made.
Keep your approach simple with minimal turning - DBF, only two turns.
The harder the better.
Earth Magnet - 2015/10/13 17:56:14 UTC
DBF is the accepted and understood way to land at Hyner, which everyone follows...
Much like the spot no-stepper.
...barring emergencies.
Yeah, it's always best to do something stupid in response to or to cause an emergency.
Other factors must have arisen to force a turn in the slot.
Dave didn't mention anything forcing a turn. He mentioned Jesse ELECTING to turn - and no eyewitnesses have yet contradicted him.
kjj3dan - 2015/10/13 18:51:23 UTC
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
I'm sure sorry to hear about this. My sincere condolences to family and friends.
The other day I was landing the falcon 195 in the meadow behind Slide ;on final I got popped straight up about 15 ft. by some turbulance ,maybe a thermal,.i pulled in and attempted to just maintain the attitude and not let a wing dump off.Luckily it worked out.God knows what would happen if I was in a turn .One thing,there seems to be no ground effect whatever at that LZ ,about 8900msl.if you try to ground skim it ,you stall.
You were upright. You fly with the same care and competence with which you write.
Steve Morris - 2015/10/13 20:04:06 UTC
S-turns are NOT the way to get into a field like that...
Totally agree!
Use the length of the slot to your advantage and land long instead of S-turns over terrain to land shorter. Any indication this was a factor in the accident, i.e. trying to get low over the trees to land close to a vehicle rather than just landing long?
Getting low over the trees was one distinct problem this guy DIDN'T have. Also... NOBODY compromises a landing at Hyner to stop close to a vehicle 'cause you can drive the vehicle anywhere you damn well please.
Dave Gills - 2015/10/13 20:41:32 UTC
Everybody has his preference and go-to move when things get rough.
Or, as in this case, to make them get rough.
I keep as many options open as possible.
That's what a tight hot DBF does for ya - unless one of the options you desire is extra runway behind you.
When I'm getting the snot kicked out of me or doing my rag doll impersonation over a field, I go to where I think there will not be thermic activity.
Really? When Zack Marzec was working on the other end of the flight on his last he deliberately took himself and his junk pro toad Industry Standard equipment into where both he and his driver knew beyond any doubt there was some of the strongest thermal activity that field had ever seen. Any comment on the result? Or would that constitute speculation and thus arouse the anger of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?
Large areas of trees.
Over water.
Then I get straightened up at the right altitude and make a run for the LZ.
Not the least bit relevant to this crash. He was in the field at well under treetop level.
I'd rather go into the trees than catch a tip.
I'd rather do neither when there's absolutely no need nor excuse.
That's why I stay downwind and fly a long straight final over vegetation.
Hyner tolerates a long straight final.
A big area of trees creates less thermic activity than a field.
That doesn't mean I prefer them as LZs.
Entering a slot on the downwind side has less cross wind rotor because of the movement of the air up and out of the slot.
You will get a bump when you dive in but you will be going fast.
Unless you're upright the way you've been taught and forced to be in your "training".
Templeton, Pa. has a similar situation going on.
Probably other "bend in the river" sites.
Just about all Eastern mountain sites are "bend in the river" or "creek" sites.
David Stevens - 2015/10/13 21:12:03 UTC
It can get highly turbulent there, especially mid day.
It can get highly turbulent anywhere, especially midday.
The air doesn't always agree with your plan.
Does with mine. I always assume the worst and fly accordingly.
According to those on the ground Jessie was coming in on a long final with plenty of speed when he got turned at about tree level by thermal activity.
He didn't have enough speed. And nobody's saying he was prone. Also... We just confirmed that he WASN'T stupid enough to be S-turning on final in the narrow strip below treetop level as per Dave Hopkins' relayed account.
He corrected but his wing tip clipped a tree.
Guess we have quite different concepts of correction.
If we do S's...
Then we're using a crap approach.
...we do them at the end of the field so that you can turn to final quickly. Most often the DBF or modified 180 degree Base/Final is used to get below tree line quick.
Why ever do anything else there?
David Stevens - 2015/10/13 21:15:14 UTC
Here's an example - this isn't a topless but you can see how scary it is.
http://vimeo.com/26196213
Sorry, I need a lot more to scare me than that. He got bounced a fair bit at a bit above treetop level as one would expect from mechanical turbulence with the fair bit o' breeze he had. And he wasn't carrying that much speed. And final after that was smooth as glass all the way to the deck.
Steve Corbin - 2015/10/13 23:14:06 UTC
Will the landowner allow you guys to get a logging permit?
No, but he might be OK with the club lining the strip with old mattresses.
My sympathies to friends and family of Jesse, may God rest his soul.
You mean the god who hit him with that thermal when he noticed Jesse wasn't carrying enough speed on final?
I've been at it for over 39 years now, but all this bad news this year has given me the heebie jeebies.
Why? Just watch random videos and you see people getting killed for the purpose of the exercise all the fuckin' time - skipped hook-in checks, upright finals, perfectly timed flares on old Frisbees in the middles of LZs, pro toad bridles, easily reachable bent pin release, Infallible Weak Links... What difference does it make when somebody is ACTUALLY killed on the rare occasion?
A friend quit last year after a long career in HG. When asked about it, he says "I got over it".
Can I have his slot?
I'm starting to get thoughts like that. But I'm going flying tomorrow, Lord willin' the crick don't rise...
See my comments above about The Lord.
Dave Gills - 2015/10/14 00:35:57 UTC
Here is where it gets complicated.
The owner wants to sell the LZ.
He wants a HUGE amount of $$$$
He wants to make it as uncomfortable for us there as possible in order to encourage us to buy it.
Sounds like he'd make a great tug pilot or tow park manager.
We have asked to cut down more trees.
Meanwhile...
The Hyner state park people that own the launch love us very much.
Not you personally, Dave, but they must have pretty low standards.
The park receives many visitors because of us flying there.
Park attendance is something local park employees use to justify state money expenditures at Hyner.
So then...
The state park was so afraid of losing us because of the LZ situation that they found another place for us to land during the fallout with the land owner.
What did they do? Divert a run of the West Branch through a tunnel and create one of those narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place that we're always training to land in?
Now...
Land owner has become a bit more friendly because he thought we might say goodbye and improve/use the state park LZ.
Maybe it is time to revisit the tree issue.
That is the long story as it was told to me.
Honestly...Hyner is my last choice in sites.
I have two other West facing hills that are closer and not nearly as dangerous.
If you look at the consequential crash stats from the past couple years it's no more dangerous than Whitewater.
Contrary to popular opinion, Brady's bend was not lost because of unfriendly land owners.
It was simply judged to be too dangerous and people stopped flying there.
Why not just make it a Four site? All Fours are fully qualified to be able to stop well within a wingspan's radius of a traffic cone.
flybop - 2015/10/14 06:36:47 UTC
Livingston, Montana
I am so sorry to hear this! I flew with the Hyner guys this past spring. They are a great group of guys and welcomed me to fly with them.
Please extend my condolences to all of the pilot's family and friends.
If the Hyner guys form such a great group then how come not one of the motherfuckers who was there and witnessed a relevant part of the approach or the final seconds has posted an account of any-/every-thing he recalls?
Instead we get THIS:
Charles Fager - 2015/10/12 15:10:30 UTC
Hopefully the Hyner club president will come out with an official statement when appropriate.
stereotypical, ass covering, disgusting bullshit. FUCK official statements when appropriate. The more official the statement and the more appropriate the timing the more gutted useless crap it's gonna be. Gawd only knows what we'd have gotten on the Zack Marzec if his driver hadn't foolishly blurted out the truth several hours after impact.
Well, here's at least one thing we know the official appropriate motherfuckers don't want in the official statement when appropriate:
Jesse Fulkersin - Berwick - 54649 - H4 - 2011/10/20 - Thomas Johnson - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - MNTR - Exp: 2015/11/30
Thanks bigtime, Brad Barkley of Frostburg, for getting that to me in such a timely manner.
P.S. How come nobody's suggesting that Jesse should've:
- reread Mike Meier's "Why Can't We Get A Handle On This Safety Thing?" article?
- reviewed the wisdom enshrined in Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's Davis Show 205 posts "Landings" thread?
- taken a landing clinic with Ryan Voight and/or Mitch Shipley?
.
)
