Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24279
Ask: Falcon 170 or 195?

Scott Howard (hang53) - 2011/12/22 07:46:16 UTC
Tonto Basin, Arizona

I weigh 150 lbs myself and have flown a 170 and i agree this would be a better choice of the two. Mission soaring center has a condor 330 that i have flown but it takes all i got and then some to get it to move around.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24270
Shoes

Scott Howard - 2011/12/22 08:26:25 UTC

Mark M ya may have seen me out at the hollister site. I'm the trucker that comes out once every other month and i'm almost done with the basic h1 tasks and about ready for the other side of the card. anyhow all i have are my tread safe shoes (slip on type) and the only prob ive had was cramin toes in the front of 'em on some of the hard landings i've had.

So why do you need to be landing on your feet?

other than that they work
fine when its dry but they can somtimes slide on the grass. i think some type of all terrain shoes with some ankle support are good for most coditions.

Wheels are a helluva lot better.

Pacific Airwave Vision MK IV

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27202
Where to get best lessons in No. California

Scott Howard - 2012/09/28 14:49:38 UTC

to all of these i would also recommend mission soaring center. they are in the bay area and their flying site is about 60 mi south of san jose, yes it's a bit of a drive from Sacremento but i drive a truck for a livin and have been taking lessons every other month. a typical lesson will have 4 to 5 hrs of time on the training hill. there website is Hang-gliding.com and phone # is area code four zero eight 262-1055

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30380
Newbie - First Post

Steve Corbin - 2013/11/28 05:33:58 UTC

Just don't let yourself get sucked into the same situation that Scott Howard got sucked into.

He wasn't properly educated regarding weight shift control versus aerodynamic control of pitch. It's a rare occurence, so the instructors don't tell you about it.

What?

But it's very real, indeed. Insist that you are educated regarding using roll to control pitch attitude in an emergency situation, or you could tumble and end up in a wheel chair.

Hang gliders are wonderful devices for allowing flight, but they have limitations that your instructor probably won't mention.

Then your instructor really sucks, doesn't he?

They are, by far, better than paragliders, that have no frame and are susceptible to becoming un-airworthy in turbulent conditions.

ANYTHING'S susceptible to becoming un-airworthy in turbulent enough conditions.

Brian Scharp - 2013/11/28 05:58:56 UTC

Maybe he was educated and made a mistake.

Then he wasn't really educated well enough to be put in a situation in which his limitation could have very easily killed him, was he? And so whose primary responsibility would that have been?

2013/11/28 10:00:07 UTC - 1 thumb up -- Dan Johnson

Scott Howard - 2013/11/30 12:55:12 UTC

this is Scott Howard. thankyou Brian for the comment. i'm well educated in both roll and pitch weight shift control of a hang glider. i experienced what's called a whip stall. i think my mistake was not pulling in enough b4 release and when i released a gust lifted the nose higher than normal.

Sounds like your trying to make this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

with not enough pull in on the bar the glider went into a steep dive and then tumbled.
i broke my pelvis and right femur. shud heal in a few moths. looking forward to goin home next week.

So just how does THAT sync with THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 07:22:35 UTC

The person who is most accountable has already expressed regret and guilt while admitting his accountability of the incident.

But, to answer your question, no I am not a pilot. I didn't come here to make an accusation but I did come here to defend Scott and not to be a jerk. In that regard there is someone who is not Scott who has privately admitted his accountability while not making it public to anyone else - per the wishes of Scott (who is this person's friend) will remain nameless.

The only way I can see for all the info and statements we have on Scott and the incident to be consistent is that the primary issue was that he was put in well over his head. Other issues... Probably flew too fast on tow and driver probably failed to ease off on the tension as he approached release position.

If that's indeed the case I'd be inclined to ease up on Mission a good bit for this one.

[Steve Davy]

Another fine example of Pat Denevan's state of the art equipment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzgzxExSRJs

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Hahahaha.
That seriously made me chuckle.

I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Yeah Jim, we weekend warrior general public muppets get it. You - the professional pilots, tug drivers, people who flight work at and run aerotow parks, track record measuring contest champions, fucking geniuses - know what you're doing.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC
Cowboy Up Hang Gliding
Wilson, Wyoming

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

You put a piece of fishing line on people's bridles that breaks once in a while - and declared it to be the focal point of a safe towing system.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Thomas Robert - 2013/11/26 05:35:22 UTC

Scott's wishes are that he sees the video before it is posted publically. If we can raise money to bring Scott home he will see the video and it will be released.

Thomas Robert - 2013/12/04 17:23:28 UTC

Scott is home safe and sound. Just to show you how awesome he is I didn't even have time for coffee and he was asking me for some wood and a drill bit to make a mount for his small computer/tv screen. Thank you to all who helped. Deeprecon, Linlyons, and others we owe you a debt. I'll stick around for a while.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

Harrison Rowntree - 2013/12/16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E

Thank you, God.

We learn about them and hope to never see one, but one unlucky...

No.

...pilot...

No.

...experienced...

...caused...

...one just recently. Started off by being too low on tow and not correcting fast enough.

Ever. At all.

The prop wash kicked the glider around a bit and when the lockout was starting to happen, the release was never pulled resulting in a full lockout...

Show me some videos of "pilots" with actuators "within easy reach" releasing after lockouts have started to happen.

...and then the weaklink broke.

OBVIOUSLY a stronglink.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is a very simple device--typically a loop of line--that is intended to break in the event towline tensions exceed a safe or desired threshold.

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

A weak link is required that will not break needlessly in response to moderate thermals, or pilot inputs, yet will break at a low enough point to avoid disaster or excessive pilot panic.

Of course, your weak link should break before the lockout becomes too severe, but that assumes a properly applied weak link.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/17

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".

Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Sure, there's other stuff out there too. Some of it even has a number of tows behind it... but hundreds of thousands is a very large number.

That's not "religion" my friend.
The shit works. It works in reality and it works consistently. It's not perfect, but Joe-Blow's pet theories have a very high bar to reach before they are given credence.

So what are we rolled to before the stronglink gets around to increasing the safety of the towing operation?

41-05323
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/11414145954_b4e394b54a_o.png


110 degrees?

And by the time we start recovering...

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


...the glider's perfectly level but in the background the blue and brown areas are totally reversed.

And only by the Grace of God...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

...does the tug keep flying along the whole time...

51-05528
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5535/11414318943_e75d3860d3_o.png


...like nothing ever happened behind him.

Hey Jim...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

What kind of asshole do you think the guy on the trike is for not having fixed whatever was going on back there by giving the glider the rope. Can't imagine anything like this happening behind, say, Bobby Bailey - who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

Ben Dover

Well, that didn't go well. You almost took a bad situation and made it worse!

He created the bad situation.

When you released you were way behind on the appropriate input needed to handle the whip stall that followed. At right about one minute you were pushed way back when you should have been pulled way in. Likewise, coming out of the initial dive, with a whip stall looming, you should have been pulled way in.

Yeah. We should expect this guy to start learning to fly after he turns the glider completely upside down in smooth air.

Thanks for sharing. I don't tow so not sure what you should have done to avoid the lockout.

Flown the glider maybe? I'll bet I can show this video to random jerks in the mall who can tell me what he did wrong as far as positioning the glider while knowing nothing about how control input is effected.

Glide On

Thanks for pointing that out Ben. At 1:01 the pilot came very close to tumbling the glider. Here in the Colonies we've had a few pilots tumble after tow breaks and pitch-ups.

BULLSHIT. A tow break always INcreases the safety of the towing operation. Fixes whatever's going on back there.

There have been other tumbles recorded where the pilot pushed out hard during a pitch down and the glider tumbled.

That's probably what Zack Marzec did after his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation and the ensuing tailslide and whipstall. If he'd just had better training he'd have been OK.

This makes a good case for pilots getting some aerobatic training.

Just keep flying Rooney Links. Everybody who does gets a pretty good dose of severe stall recovery practice before too long.

In this case the pilot...

The what?

...could have stopped the pitching by rolling the glider.

There are a lot of things this guy could've stopped from happening LONG before things got that exciting.

Glad he came out unscathed.

Well, unlike Zack Marzec, this guy had a full face helmet. So what's the worst that could've happened?

Leonardo G. Galliard

Was the weak link in the extreme of the towing rope instead of the keel/harness?

Yeah, he's using one of those really safe closed bridles like Peter Birren insists on. That way you won't have the bridle end tying itself to a nose wire - as so often happens to all those idiots who release from the keel. Of course that means you've gotta take a hand off the basetube to go for the release lanyard but...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 17:26:52 UTC

Other thing I know: a lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand form a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad. It's a delusion.

What the fuck. That's not an actual issue. If it were do you think just about everyone would be flying with release actuators and lanyards on downtubes, shoulders, wrists, chests, hips?

Flying Fish

From that angle, it looks like pilot is way too low on tow, then cross-controls instead of weight-shifts causing the lock-out. Wonder why tug pilot didn't waive him up earlier on; and/or give him the line before the lockout?

Do you wonder who:

- his instructor was?

- OKed him for aerotowing?

- thought it would be just fine to run a release lanyard to a shoulder 'cause, what the hell, if he fails to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the Rooney Link will break before he can get into too much trouble?

Philip Montague

Got so low on the tow you hit the propwash - I was taught to keep the tug on the horizon.

Fuck the propwash. I doubt that made the slightest contribution to anything that happened on this one - if, indeed, he even encountered it. He flew the glider - or just allowed it to fly - into the lockout.

P.S. Do you keep the tug on the horizon 'cause that's what you were TAUGHT?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

Dan Kidd

Multiple issues: Cross Controlling...

Fuck that term. If something is CROSS controlled it goes in the opposite direction from what was intended. This guy was NOT Controlling.

...instead of weight shift resulted in not being able to correct but was perhaps not the most severe issue. If you notice at about 45 seconds, the bottom portion of the bridle goes slack resulting in 100% of the tow force being applied to the glider.

Right.

25-04714
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7319/11414267393_23e21cf4b8_o.png


- The upper bridle is straight and tight between the keel and the tow ring and then everything between the tow ring and tug cleanly angles to a line straight to the tug.

- And the glider keeps flying right along just as well is this guy allows it to.

This is certainly trouble and the result of the beaner not sliding freely on the bridle. Was there a knot in the bridle or perhaps just a miss-configured...

Miss Configured:

http://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/miss-universe-gabriela-isler-million-dollar-swimsuit.jpg?w=416&h=539

2013

...tow setup? Either way, an effective pre-flight should have caught this issue.

An effective preflight would've found the release to be a useless piece of shit. No way in hell would a REAL pilot go up with it.

Worse yet, a pilot release would have been ineffective as the released bridle would not have slid through the beaner and allowed a release.

If this system were configured the way you think it is the bridle would need to be releasable from both ends 'cause you've gotta operate on the assumption that it WILL wrap.

Thank God for weak links as it saved this pilots life.

Yeah, thank God for god and the fishing line. Pretty fucking obvious that there weren't any humans doing shit to stay on top of this situation.

For the lockout... As soon as the pilot got low to the tow plane, the force of the tow went 100% to the glider. This was the start of the lack of control and ultimately the lockout.

Had that been the case the glider would've gone down like a goddam brick until the lower section tensioned or the glider broke negative.

To the pilot:

To the what?

Thank you for posting this video as it is very educational.

Sure it is. Hang gliding ALWAYS learns SO MUCH from these videos. Outfits like Quest and Cowboy Up are always using them to continuously perfect aerotowing.

Second, thank God for small miracles... you survived a potentially deadly event.

Yeah, thank you GOD. Super job on this one. Keep up the great work. And...

http://www.theleakeystaronline.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/uncleTerry3.jpg


DO say hey to Uncle Terry for us.

kfspiano

We see at second 45, that the line to the pilot's harness is completely slack. So, ALL of the tow pull is concentrated on the upper line, which is attached to the glider, and thus the pilot has practically NO control input, in relation to the tow forces pulling on the glider.

AND the "PILOT" is CROSS CONTROLLING! And despite all this the glider stays well enough in position to make it up to eight hundred feet or so. SMALL miracle my ass!

Whatever the pilot does at that point on, has basically no effect on the glider;

Idiot.

...fortunately for him the weak link broke.

Yes. Because he had absolutely no safe way of releasing. Even with both hands on the basetube at all times he ended up totally upside down two seconds after his Ryan Voight Instant Hands Free Release kicked in.

If it hadn't, the tug would have been basically pulling on an out of control glider in a cartwheel spin.

ALSO totally incapable of blowing the glider off tow. I am truly humbled by the degree of risk to which these brave lads selflessly subject themselves - day in and day out - solely to accommodate our love of flying.

The "two-point" bridle system has that basic danger.

- Check with Davis. I believe that's a "three-point" bridle.
- BULLSHIT.
-- Release from the top first.
-- Use:
--- bridle assemblies that don't wrap
--- secondary releases and weak links

If the upper line had been disactivated shortly after takeoff, and the tow forces been going through the pilot, then his control over the glider would have been augmented...

Ignoring, of course, the top third of his pitch control range...

1-11012c
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03-02421
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


But really hard to imagine anybody having a serious problem with that.

...(as if he were virtually a heavier pilot, for example), and the lockout would have not happened.

Right. He could use all that extra virtual weight to not control the glider even more effectively than he's not controlling the glider with the two point. Plus he'd be able to pitch up a lot more effectively - and I don't think I've ever seen anybody aerotow who's as incapable of pitching up is this guy is.

You need to be aware of this danger of the "two-line" system, and perhaps rethink your use of it.

Yeah. Let Davis set you up. And since one point so obviously commands such a superior safety advantage I think we should really get our act together discouraging the use of two point - same way we discourage homemade funky shit releases which allow people to blow tow with both hands on the basetube and hook-in checks which give people false senses of security.

Idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

jwm239

Seems like the towing pilot should have released the towed pilot when the latter was persistently too low.

Seems like the towing pilot should never have hooked this guy up in the first place. These motherfuckers are all rabid about not pulling anybody with anything a pound up from a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot because of the severe danger this would present to both aircraft but they have no problem whatsoever with pulling:
- the same release, Rooney Link, bridle that just locked up and killed someone yesterday
- gliders without wheels
- people who have only the vaguest of ideas on how to fly gliders

Staying too low on tow pulls down tow craft's tail, forcing its nose up, it approaching a stalling condition...not good.

BULLSHIT. When was the last time you heard of a tug being stalled or put dangerously out of control by a hang glider? And they've ALL got GOOD RELEASES. The ONLY thing that fucks a tug up is a power failure on takeoff - which is pretty much the only thing that fucks a glider up but is pretty much universally forced on us by the front end assholes in the interest of our safety.

And now that my brain has kicked in a bit...

I've been focusing entirely on the glider and getting really irritated at him 'cause he's been doing so little to control things. But he's LOW and SLOW. And that's the TUG'S fault. The goddam tug should've done its goddam job and gotten back down to where it was supposed to be. The glider's flying near stall while he attempts to milk his way up to proper position and that's what leaves him so vulnerable to the lockout.

Unfuck the propwash. Real good chance that that WAS the final straw.

Harrison Rowntree

Correct, cross controlling and being to low and hitting the prop wash - which is what started throwing him off course. As for the trike pilot - I suppose for him it would have been quite obvious that he needed to be higher, but the trike is also trying to fly as slow as safely possible in thermic air whilst still relatively low, so he's got enough on his mind as it is.

Fuck that. See above.

- We're watching a pretty good reenactment of the 2005/09/03 Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson fatality. Who's driving the trike anyway? Gary Solomon?

He could have possibly given him the rope earlier, but one would expect the HG pilot to release sooner.

BULLSHIT.

- Given WHO the rope? From 0:22 at least until the lockout onset at 0:50 he doesn't even know he's got another plane behind him. He just climbs away without a care in the world.

- If he'd been aware that he had another plane behind him the call should've been to dive and hit the gas. Making a good decision in the interest of his safety would - as usual - have been the worst possible response. That would've stalled the glider.

If the weak link didn't break and he didn't release, the trike would have been in danger...

Bullshit. He's the one with engine - the engine he's supposed to be using to do his job.

...and he would have definitely given him the rope.

Fuck this guy. The glider could've easily tumbled and been killed. And we all know EXACTLY how the fatality report would've read.

Jason Orlando

I'm no expert but I have been aerotowing for a long time...

So have Bobby Bailey, Bill Moyes, Malcolm Jones, Russell Brown, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Davis Straub, Brad Gryder, and Jim Rooney. Every last one of them is totally full of shit.

At :23 you were looking good but by :35 you are extremely low on this tow -- you should have been pushing out very aggressively there!

Yeah, really hard to go wrong pushing out very aggressively on aerotow...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/17

The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

Can't really imagine any problem that might result from that strategy.

Getting stuck in prop wash is a predictable result if you're seeing the tug that high on the horizon.

If you're seeing the fucking tug that high above the horizon the tug can also be seeing the glider that low below the horizon. And if the motherfucker's doing his goddam job that's what he's supposed to be doing. And he's not supposed to let the glider get that low below the horizon. And save the crap about him having enough on his mind trying to fly as slowly as safely possible in thermic air whilst still relatively low, Harrison. Total whitewash bullshit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

jwm239

Seems like the towing pilot should have released the towed pilot when the latter was persistently too low. Staying too low on tow pulls down tow craft's tail, forcing its nose up, it approaching a stalling condition...not good.

Harrison Rowntree

I thought so too, but it must have still been flyable. The trike will only give the rope to the hang glider pilot if the trike is in danger.

I thought the tug will only give the rope to the glider to fix whatever's going on back there. What's wrong with you people?

I'm guessing that the trike pilot...

Why are you GUESSING anything about the trike "pilot"? This glider went totally upside down, could've easily have been killed, and has generated discussions on YouTube and the Jack and Davis Shows. Was this just too inconsequential an incident to be worth this motherfucker's time to file a report or comment?

...made the judgement that where the HG was before the lockout was still fixable so he let him fly.

Bullshit. He didn't "let" him fly. He continued to drag him around half stalled and climbed steeply out on him to finish the job.

Harrison Rowntree

The slack line you're actually seeing is the release line. This bridle is different to the one I think you're thinking of. It forks to two shoulder attachments at the bottom end of the rope, then in the middle it slides through a ring that's connected to a sliding pin release and then back through to the keel attachment point. That release piece can slide anywhere along that rope. When you pull the release cable...

...in non emergency situations when you can afford to let go of the basetube...

...the pin slides out and the rope is let go.

The lockout started when he got low and flew into the prop wash. He should have let the bar out and climbed out of it. Instead he held it in and made cross controlling inputs allowing himself to get further and further off course.

And the tug was doing just fine. No criticism of him is permitted 'cause we flatlanders don't have any other way to get airborne.

Flying Fish

The two point system is great and with some glider types (e.g., Falcons), the pro-tow option...

Why is it a "pro-tow"? A two point bridle connects to the pilot and glider. The other "option" just connects to the pilot. What's two minus one?

...is way too tiring.

But, of course, perfectly safe. If it weren't we wouldn't have thousands of people - just about all of them pros - doing it.

It's nice to have the keel do half the work!

Is it nice to have the bar trim in normal position? Isn't it just tiny bit odd that this issue is virtually never mentioned - especially in fatality reports?

Mine is set up so my bar pressure is negligible and the top line to the keel actually keeps the glider pointed toward the tug more easily. With a top release, and two harness release points, plus the weak link at the carabiner, you've got plenty of release options.

Got news for ya, dude...

- The harness releases aren't options unless the top has been blown and the bridle has wrapped.

- A weak link is NOT a release option. It's overload protection. A lot of people who've geared it for and tried to use it as a release option are dead.

- If you have to take a hand off the basetube to blow a release the number of emergency release options you have is ZERO. Watch the video. Think this guy didn't release 'cause he was too stupid to think of it? Wanna make an argument that this would've been survivable at a hundred feet?

raptordesigns

Many pilots do use a single bridle to the chest with one or two (for redundancy) barrel releases.

When the shit really hits the fan you need to be able to get the job done inside of a second - so let's be real careful about throwing the "redundancy" word around.

However it is common to see the above arrangement or topologically equivalent (with a secondary release at the chest and a primary release at the keel activated by a cord on the control bar) as it trades off against high bar pressures at speed particularly on slower gliders. The cord on the control bar type also removes the requirement to take a hand off the bar to release in an emergency, which is one of the downsides to both the chest mount only and the type used in this instance. If the pilot had had a control bar actuated release already in his hand, he might...

...undoubtedly WOULD...

...have pinned off before things went as far as they did.

In other words... This guy could very easily have been killed down low solely because he was using this cheap piece of crap instead of something engineered to do the job. But... What the hell. This is good enough just about all the time.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

Harrison Rowntree

The pilot in the video...

Which pilot - glider or tug?

...has done the proper training...

Then why was he going up with that cheap piece of shit instead of a proper release?

...but I think it was his first aerotow in over a year.

So?

Shortly after landing, he went for another tow and nailed it, landing too.

- On his feet again, of course. You never know when you're gonna look down and see a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place as your only option in a place like that so you gotta keep honing your skills.

- Did the tug do anything differently that time? If so do you think there might be some kind of correlation going on?

A lot of things were done wrong in this tow.

Nothing to do with the tug, of course. He already had quite enough on his mind trying to fly as slowly as safely possible in thermic air whilst still relatively low.

I can only put it down to panicking and not thinking clearly. Definitely lucky indeed.

Bullshit. It had to do primarily with the asshole on the trike and the piece of shit release. I notice raptordesigns brought up the latter and you totally fucking ignored it.

Allan Phillips

A lockout is when a glider on tow gets so far into a turn that force from the tow rope or cable locks the glider into an ever increasing turn that is impossible to weight-shift out of. In this situation the only way out is to release from the tow.

Assuming you've got enough altitude to recover from the ensuing stall. If not, tough shit - there is no way out.

The pilot gets into this situation by flying too low behind the tug and getting caught in the turbulence from the prop wash.

Right. The guy was a total moron. All he had to do was push out aggressively like Wallaby tells you to. Aerotowed gliders are immune from stalls and weak link blows and premature releases increase the safety of the towing operation and are, at worst, minor inconveniences.

He then releases from the tow far, far too late and then things nearly go from bad to worse when he fails to anticipate the impending severe stall when coming out of the dive.

HE DOESN'T THEN RELEASE FROM TOW FAR, FAR TOO LATE. He CAN'T release from tow because his glider's about to go upside down and he's never needed both hands to fly it in his entire hang gliding career more than he does now. His FISHING LINE releases him from tow far, far too late.

If he'd been using the equivalent of a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot you motherfuckers would be having a feeding frenzy on that issue right now. We know that it was the equivalent of a Rooney Link because:
- that's what Aussie morons all use
- we can see that there wasn't much tension involved
- you motherfuckers aren't having a feeding frenzy on that issue right now

How come nobody's saying a SINGLE FUCKING WORD about how the fishing line didn't do what all the idiot flight schools, instructors, textbooks, websites, magazine articles assure us it will?

Harrison Rowntree

It's not me in the video But yes, shit went from bad to worse. To avoid the lockouts, you need to keep behind the tug as best as possible and tow with the microlight wheels on the horizon line.

And if you do that, keep the glider tracking nicely in the center of the Cone of Safety, no fuckin' way you're gonna get locked out. Mother Nature will observe and reward your good faith effort and will hold back on the kind of shit she threw at Mike Haas and Zack Marzec.

When you get off center, the rope starts to pull towards the nose wires. This is what you need to correct, because once it starts pulling on the nose wires, it rotates the glider around the keel further away from the tug.

Here's the bridle starting to push on the starboard nose wire:

36-05224
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2857/11425450323_f9659e0462_o.png


- There is:
-- not a whole helluva lot of torque being applied to the glider
-- no noticeable increase roll rate as a consequence
- The fucking tow was over a long time ago so it's ludicrous to tell people that they need to "correct" this.
- If this WERE correctable people wouldn't need you to tell them that they need to correct it.

He should have released as soon as touched the wires.

- Tow was over at 0:48.
- Bridle touches the wire at 0:51.
- Weak link blows at 0:54.

Lockouts get harder to fix the closer they are to actually happening so identifying the circumstances early is important and so is releasing at the right time.

- Lockouts, by definition, CANNOT be FIXED.

- Deviations from the tug's path should and will ALWAYS be resisted.

- A release, even with good equipment and both hands on the basetube, in the course of a deviation, incipient lockout, full lockout down low may not be survivable.

- People actually IN turns away from the tug's flight path fight to return because they can feel and assess the forces and predict the consequences of a dump a lot better than the assholes on the keyboards telling them what they should be doing.

- Up high things tend not to matter much. By the time the glider's diverging enough for the bridle to be getting close to a nose wire the rate of increase of tow tension is such that whatever it is you're using for a weak link WILL blow in another heartbeat or two.

- This guy may not have done the greatest job in the world but he had a driver and release that both totally sucked and he and his glider came out smelling like a rose. So how 'bout shutting the fuck up and not telling him that he should be taking a hand off the basetube to try to blow the release a couple of seconds before the weak link's about to kick in and when the glider's in the process of rolling upside down?

- You wanna give this guy some advice that doesn't totally suck tell him to stop going up with drivers and releases that totally suck.