Me thinks that there should be a bicycle like tow release, that only keeps you on tow when you are actively holding the lever in. As soon as you stop applying pressure, bingo bango, you are released.
The problem is how to move to the side of your based tube after release.
- What you're proposing is total crap and you haven't bothered looking into any of the quality releases that have been discussed on The Jack Show since you joined it over two years ago.
- How 'bout fer starters we just get the goddam actuator on the goddam basetube with a system that actually works when go to blow it?
- There are no safe mainstream two point releases - period. The actuators are either downtube mounted or the assemblies are too poorly engineered to work reliably with basetube actuation.
- THIS: http://www.getoffrelease.com/
is the ONLY safe, reliable two point release you can get without having to build it yourself.
- A deadman switch concept along the lines you envision but not totally insane is dangerous. Granted, it would be a thousand times safer than any of the mainstream commercial crap but you don't want something that will automatically blow you off tow if your hand comes off of a lever or button because you might NEED to move your hand AND stay on tow to stay alive. Very remote chance but not out of the realm of possibility.
- For a one point release that concept has been available, up and flying in several forms for a good many years. The Russian "tooth-lock" and Steve Kinsley's multi-string and my and Antoine's modifications of it. That's not dangerous because there's no reason you need to open your mouth to keep things under control. However... One point aerotowing itself can be lethal. Better off though towing one point with a heavy weak link and some sort of tooth-lock than two point on any of the mainstream junk regardless of your weak link.
- For the ideal two point release actuator you'd want a button on the basetube at a hand position that you could push without moving your hand. The engineering would be an incredible pain and not worth it.
-- You can blow it with a little bit of inboard movement or twist of your wrist while maintaining full backpressure - which is what you're gonna need in an emergency.
-- It's a deadman switch if your hand is torn off the bar but you can disengage the button if you need to move your hand and stay on tow. (Of course your emergency release capability will be a bit compromised after that.)
Joe Street's release is draggy but not significantly lagging as far as safety margin is concerned. It's probably saved one life already. (Any word on how Sara Reynaud is doing?)
Unfortunately, we've all seen other (less emotionally secure?) pilots who are unable to be as generous and, although we inevitably hear about their incidents on the grapevine, if the pilot doesn't raise it him or herself, everyone pretends it hasn't happened. This is counterproductive not just for the pilot community, but for the pilot who may not get thoroughly debriefed, and who is then doomed to repeat their mistake.
Well said and a very important point completely related to the topic at hand. The discussion would hardly be as valuable without the video. Everyone should take note, there have been too many accidents involving pilots on this forum where information is withheld and any speculative discussions discouraged. This only results in more injured pilots.
Right sentiment but basically bullshit. There is NOTHING to be learned in these videos.
In this one the glider stays low, no-controls for roll, is using cheap shit for equipment and has a total asshole for a driver who outclimbs and is oblivious to what's behind him.
There's nothing in this one that shouldn't have been dealt with before his first aerotow solo - with or, preferably, without introductory tandem training.
The main value of these videos is to get through to the 0.01 percent of the flyers who've been fucked over by their instructors, schools, flight parks and want to get things right.
And all but the very most recent participants have had people repeatedly screaming this stuff in their faces and chosen to ignore it and let Davis and Rooney do all their thinking and decision making for them.
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
We sure don't wanna start letting uppity nig- - I mean - hang glider pilots SPECULATING on anything. That's right up there with hook-in checks, homemade equipment, funky shit, and Tad-O-Links on Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's taboo list.
Steve,
I don't know what you mean by this.
Fuck, Jonathan. You don't know what anybody means by a hook-in check or a weak link.
In my bonk, speculative discussions should be discouraged as being the bane of safety.
Fuck you and your bonk. And fuck the bonks of anybody and everybody who ever signed you off on anything.
Speculation is little more than guessing and too often it's based on bad or missing data.
- Speculation is NOT little more than guessing when people who have functional brains and maybe a bit of familiarity with the sport engage in it. You hear, fer instance:
-- unsecured launch - carabiner or leg loops
-- spiral fracture of the humerus
-- aerotow takeoff crash:
--- downtube magnitude
--- body bag magnitude
No brainer that, respectively, it's:
-- someone who never does hook-in checks
-- standup landing attempt in light air on a putting green
--- Rooney Link pop
--- lockout with inaccessible or nonfunctional Industry Standard release
I know from direct expereince how speculation presented as knowledge has lead to avoidable accidents when the individual giving advice misrepresented his personal opinions as if it were factual knowledge when it was not.
- I know from direct expereince that it's a real bad idea to hit "Submit" on stuff that hasn't been run through a spellcheck.
- Yeah? Cite a single example.
- How could someone who's had competent instruction be lead astray by some idiot's opinion?
- P.S. Someone who's had competent instruction isn't doing something because Ryan Instant-Hand-Free-Release Voight or Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney said to 'cause they know what they're doing and talking about. Someone who's had competent instruction is doing something because he understands the physics and logic and finds everything consistent.
- Who signed the rating of the person giving the bad advice?
- So what's stopping someone who's been given bad advice from checking it against a respected authoritative source like the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?
- If there are no competent authoritative sources available and USHGA is selling crap like the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden don't we have a lot more important things to worry about?
- If some brain dead asshole is stupid enough to take advice from some other brain dead asshole while he's thumb downing, voting to bury, calling for the banning of the people he should be listening to and augurs in as a consequence just how much of a loss to the discussion group, sport, and gene pool is it?
If facts and objective data are missing than questions need to be asked and efforts need to be made to gather the needed facts before conclusions are drawn.
If facts and objective data are missing it's a no-brainer that a cover-up/whitewash is in progress.
It may be fun and exciting to play CSI Hang Glider and speculate about causes and outcomes but each of our lives are on the line any time we take to the sky and this is not some game or a TV show.
Yeah, we've got a different stable of fiction writers with entirely different motivations. It's rare as hen's teeth that the people on site don't know exactly what and why something happened.
I have a small library of accident videos that I have cached over the years that I can view and make my own personal guesses as to what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening to me.
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
I have little time for these people.
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.
A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.
For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.
...vocal minority which can also add two plus two and get four or something close is there any chance that Zack Marzec would've pulled his head out of his ass, gone with the weak link that Morningside decided they were happy with instead of the weak link everybody else decided they were happy with and had a nice flight on the afternoon of 2013/02/02?
I don't know about anyone else but I want my hang gliding decision making to be as objective and fact-based as reasonably possible.
I don't want to die if I can avoid it based upon what I have gathered for myself from portions of this thread.
I can't speak for anyone else but my takeaway so far:
1 - If I am under aerotow while too low to safely deploy my reserve and the tug suddenly slows and climbs rapidly leaving the line slack I must make a conscious decision regarding just how much I am willing to push out and attempt to take up the slack and climb even with the tug. I must be cognitively aware of the risk of coming off of tow (for any reason) and possibly entering an accelerated stall too low to deploy with an upset or broken glider and possibly in proximity to the turbulence that may have thrust the tug upward.
2 - I will not expect a weak link system to save me from a lock-out.
3 - I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
4 - I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.
You're totally cool with handing your life and status as Pilot In Command over to a bunch of stupid, arrogant, corrupt, ultralight driving motherfuckers and their little loops of fishing line. You're also totally cool with undercutting the efforts of those of us trying to get control of our sport back from them.
Obviously there is a limit and at some point each of us much make our own choices and decisions.
Good thing for you that you've got Kagel in your backyard, isn't it Jonathan?
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
That's a big responsibility.
Much too big for any of us weekend warrior muppets to take on. That's why God sent us Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, his professional pilot buddies, and their magic fishing line.
The video showed up on this forum and this thread was started in order to foster and open discussion while making pilots aware of errors that any one us might make if not prepared or trained to avoid.
We're supposed to be trained for it before we're put in situations when we need to know what we're doing.
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
It's probably already been suppressed enough for your comfort level.
...but I would prefer speculation be replaced as much as possible with questions that seek facts needed for each of us to make his/her own informed decisions in our flying endeavors.
What camera angles and primary source statements are we missing from this one that's causing us to listen to speculation and reach dangerously erroneous conclusions?
Each of us must make his/her own decisions but I would urge pilots to be as objective as reasonably possible in both our presentations of our own incidents and our review of others' incidents.
And make sure you don't listen to anything T** at K*** S****** has to say on this.
ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC
Gold Coast, Queensland
I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.
The "Extremist One Percent" is not allowed on this site.
Do you know what the most under-used three-word phrase in the English language is? I don't know.
And do you have a fuckin' clue what SPECULATION is, Jonathan? It's - by definition - discussion about UNKNOWN issues. There isn't any speculation that this happened in Finland because there's overwhelming evidence that it took place in Lameroo, South Australia.
About the only thing that there isn't any overwhelming evidence on is the identity of the tug driver. And if we had to speculate on that issue I'd go with Gary Solomon 'cause we have overwhelming evidence that he fucked over and killed a glider in similar fashion before.
But I DON'T KNOW. You got a better idea, Jonathan?
My experience regarding HG accident reporting is a bit different. I've seen the sport progress from no information (1970's)...
There was TONS of information at least in the late Seventies. The sport was a total bloodbath and Robert V. Wills was doing a really good job of sucking in and publishing every scrap of information he could get his hands on.
...to an attempt at real accident reporting and cataloging (by the USHPA 1980's)...
- There was no USHPA in the Seventies.
- USHGA didn't do shit. That was just about all Doug Hildreth.
- And to what extent...
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
...were any of his recommendations implemented? Twenty-two and a half years now - and virtually all of our release actuators are still within easy reach. And see what happens to anybody who advocates hook-in checks.
...to our current situation where little information is publicly dispensed.
That doesn't BEGIN to describe it. It's shredded wherever possible and distorted beyond anything remotely resembling reality when not.
Many people seem to think there is an equivalent to the NTSB in the HG community and there isn't.
What would you expect from a COMMUNITY? Checks and balances, accountability, protection from conflict of interest issues and for minority positions?
The USHPA has not enhanced its own efforts to study accidents...
- Accidents?
- They study the crap out of them. They know exactly the one's they can write off as dead guy error and the one's for which they're wide open on negligence and liability issues. Remember how long it took them to delete all the equipment specifications from the aerotowing SOPs after Zack Marzec slammed in?
...they seem to rely whatever report that someone submits to them, sort of a one-sided version of what happens on forums like this.
You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.
These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.
Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.
My feeling is that we live in a time where the best information and investigation for HG accidents must be "open sourced", i.e. it's up to us to thrash it out in these forums or else no one will ever know what happened.
Listen to what these assholes first blurt out within the first twelve to twenty-four hours. Archive their statements before the start recovering from the shock enough to start thinking about getting their stories straight.
This includes bad speculation and possible misinformation, but I trust in the group to sort it out when people know they can speak freely.
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Right.
My concern is that we have no other useful mechanism than what gets written here and no information is the worst of all worlds.
The Jack and Davis Shows aren't the only places to get information and hear analysis.
Thanks so much for sharing. I'm sure glad you had the courage to put the video out there for us to all learn from.
Sorry, I'm not really seeing as how posting a video of a pooch screw is a courageous act. On the other hand, I TOTALLY see suppression of a video as a COWARDLY act.
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
What's your take on THAT, Tom?
My impression in watching the video was that you probably weren't aware of how serious the situation had gotten before the lockout, when a correction would have been easier to make.
Neither he nor you are aware of how serious ANY towing situation is. So you have no problem using whatever shit equipment some asshole at a tow operation hands and/or sells you.
No shame in that. I had a terrible foot launch and was utterly unaware until my instructor told me that I scared him.
Your foot launch wasn't as terrible as Dave Seib's, Eric Thorstenson's, or Grant Bond's. If it had been you'd have been utterly aware at least for a second or two prior to impact.
And I can see forgetting about the prop wash.
Can you see his tug driver forgetting about the prop wash?
Sailplanes go right down through it (not likely to forget it's there after you've done that a few times), but that's probably too dangerous to even practice in a hang glider.
Hang gliders go right through prop wash every time they launch. ANYTHING'S fucked if it's on the verge of a stall before it gets hit by the propwash. Sailplanes can and do get killed just as dead as hang gliders.
Thank you again. I have not yet solo aerotowed in a hang glider, and your video definitely helped me be a safer pilot when I do.
How much so in relation to Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" articles in the magazine?
I'm grateful to you for sharing.
Jim Rooney - 2013/12/21 21:51:46 UTC
Thanks for posting this.
And thank YOU for posting THIS. I was SO hoping you'd be stupid enough to open your mouth on this one.
I'm glad you're ok.
I'm sure you are. I'm totally blown away by your capacity for concern for us weekend warrior muppets.
It's far too easy to forget how serious all this stuff is.
That's why we need you, your keen intellect, and your tireless efforts to keep us all as safe as possible.
So many "classic" errors.
Yep. Jim's really excellent with the "classic" errors. On the ones precipitated by Rooney Link pops - only if the crashee is a weekend warrior muppet.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this scenario play out, in all it's different forms.
Oh why don't you tell us how many times you've seen this scenario play out - a student glider rolling completely upside down after popping off tow?
The trouble is, we've all heard the siren's song of thermals.
And yet we're all equipped with Industry Standard shit that assumes there won't be any thermals - consistent with Skyting Theory.
It makes us do very irrational things and take very serious risks that we know we shouldn't.
Go fuck yourself, Jim. This wasn't some testosterone poisoned adrenaline junky with his sprogs dialed down to the stops. This was some bozo student who hadn't learned to fly or tow and was just looking for a sled run to blow a year's worth of dust off.
I'm concerned that your tow pilot would agree to tow you in mid day conditions after a year break from even finishing the course.
I'm concerned that anyone would consider that asshole to be a tow pilot.
I'm also concerned that he allowed you to stay on tow so long and so far out of position.
- Are you concerned that he made no effort to limit his climb to what the glider could handle and monitor him in the mirror?
Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?
There's very little anyone who is - or is perceived to be - a tug pilot can do wrong.
- So it would've been a good idea for this guy to fix whatever was going on back there - low and slow - by giving him the rope. Diving down to his level just wouldn't be an option.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
I was under the distinct impression that you knew everything about everything. This I find a bit disturbing.
you say your primary release is on your shoulder?
- He isn't saying ANYTHING over here. You're reading a quote from a discussion on a forum you were kicked off of two and a half years ago by one of your sleazeball former buddies. It's highly unlikely that he's registered on The Davis Show dump and if he's not he can't ever read what your saying.
- What he says is:
However, my main problem, which no one has alluded to because it is not obvious from the camera angle, is that when I wanted to release I couldn't see the release line. The release was tied high on my right shoulder strap and in theory all I had to do if I couldn't see it was to locate it by feel and pull it.
He's talking about a release LINE - a lanyard. That should suggest that the release itself is somewhere else.
- He doesn't say shit about a PRIMARY release because he's just got one release. And, as per usual, he can't get to that one when he needs to so what the hell would be the point in having another one he can't get to when he needs it?
How would this connect to the upper bridal?
To the veil.
Or does it release at the tow rope connection?
Why don't you watch the video linked to in the first post? That way your questions and comments might be slightly less stupid.
I hope it's one of those two. I've heard of people towing without upper releases before.
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
...and then try to pry the backup on the bottom open.
In any event, I'd say it's demonstrably inadequate.
Dude, quit bogarting that stuff
How's it go? Never say never.
Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.
If they were perfection, everyone would be using them. They're not. As with all things, they are a tradeoff. Having that big ole chunk of metal on my sternum as I depart a launch dolly, just a couple feet off the ground, is not my idea of a good situation to be in.
I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I thought an ACTUAL "weak" link was a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a one or two point bridle for any solo glider regardless of G rating. For a min loaded baby Falcon 3 that could be as much as one and a half Gs - or, using Ridgely's and Trisa's figure for the loop, three Gs.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
What hard way? Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, Zack Marzec were using Rooney Links that didn't break when they were supposed to and did break when they weren't supposed to and all wound up dead. This guy plopped his glider back down on the cart and took a totally uneventful second hop. What do you get when you add two plus two?
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".
I'm still not understanding it, Jim. This guy couldn't fly worth shit and rolled 180, recovered, and landed. Zack Marzec was a tandem aerotow instructor and uber cool dude and tumbled twice and was DOA at South Lake.
Mark Knight and Jim Rooney put the loops through the wringer
(Francisco Grande, Casa Grande, Arizona)
Mark Knight
My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.
You didn't or weren't able to get your bench testing buddy Mark Knight to see the wisdom of an ACTUAL "weak" link?
Will you have to visit him in the hospital before he begins to hear what you were telling him all along? Or is 1.4 a safe cutoff and 1.5 totally wack?
Cragin Shelton - 2013/12/21 22:35:03 UTC
Jim Rooney - 2013/12/21 21:51:46 UTC
Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".
The purpose of a weaklink is to break when stressed.
"Darn, my weaklink broke. I better fix it so it won't break."
Translation:
"Darn, my weaklink worked. I better fix it so it won't work."
Yeah, that makes sense.
"Darn, the brakes made my car stop. I better fix them so they won't stop the car again."
Hey pigfucker. I don't believe I heard you or any of your cowardly pigfucker buddies from Ridgely, Manquin, or CHGA chiming in after Zack Marzec bought it - 'cept, of course, for Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney who got torn to shreds so badly that Davis had to lock all the threads down while he still had a detectable pulse.
Yeah, that makes sense.
"Darn, the brakes made my car stop. I better fix them so they won't stop the car again."
I guess you drive around on the beltway without a brake pedal because your hydraulic system powers up at random and locks up the wheels until you get out of the car, pop the hood, and hit the reset switch.
You have no fucking idea how happy it would make me to see you get it the way Zack did - 'specially if it's on a good video.
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.
...it's impossible to fold up a glider on aero?
Please don't try to convince me that that's all it can do.
Nobody with half a brain or better is trying to convince YOU of ANYTHING. Everybody who's anybody knows you to be the parasitic pathological liar and fraud that you are. And I wouldn't do anything to start you saying anything with the least hint of rationality, intelligence, honesty with a gun to my head. We're not gonna be able to do much to fix the sport but the more assholes you can get listening to you the more assholes we're gonna remove from the gene pool and the more cool videos we're gonna get.
A perfect example of why the "strong weak link advocates" is so very wrong.
A perfect example of why the "strong weak link advocates" is so very wrong would be a certified glider with its wings torn off - which Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney alternately says can and can't happen (which is why it's a very bad idea for extremely stupid people to choose careers as liars).
at 2013/12/16 18:29:57 UTC. It wasn't until 2013/12/19 04:17:30 UTC that Lockout posted his account of his incident and it was first disclosed that he was using a one and a half G weak link.
So, using Jonathan as the starting point, we've got a period of two days, nine hours, forty-seven minutes, and thirty-three seconds - let's make it 2.4 days - in which is made just about all manner of halfway intelligent to totally moronic comment on this incident. AND NOT ONE OF THEM MAKES THE SLIGHTEST SUGGESTION THAT A "STRONGLINK" MIGHT HAVE BEEN A FACTOR. And I one hundred percent guarantee you that everyone and his dog was assuming that Lockout was using the same apex version of the Rooney Link that had dumped two totally in control gliders before he went up.
It's only AFTER this revelation is made that all you useless goddam Rooney Linker shits come out of the woodwork and scurry up unto your righteous pulpits to spew your phony toldyasos.
And here's a pretty good analogy of what's going on.
Same video and postmortem analysis. Then a couple days later another video of Lockout surfaces in which his helmet comes off at the end and we see that he's black. "OH! It's a NIGGER! Well OBVIOUSLY! And how many years have I been trying to warn everybody about this issue? We just can't let these people keep going up in the air."
Take a look at Outback of Norfolk, Virginia over the Zack Marzec Memorial Aerotow Park at Maple, North Carolina one frame prior to him managing to pry his shitrigged Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release open on the second effort:
27-41810
We bloody well know that he was using a Marzec Link on his two point bridle limiting tow tension to something near 226 pounds. He's rolled about sixty degrees - the limit specified by the placard - and the Rooney Link is still doing fine.
- Would you like to tell me exactly or approximately how far his glider would be capable of rolling before the Rooney Link would keep him from getting into too much trouble?
- Pick one - shitrigged:
-- Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release you can pry open on the second effort with your hand still on the basetube
-- Lameroo Release you can easily pull open on the first effort using the lanyard anchored within easy reach on your right shoulder
Here's Lockout one frame prior to stronglink pop. Note the similarity in roll control techniques:
Both Outback and Lockout angle their bodies under the low wing to try to get the high wing down. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they both have "out" in their names.
...was an Airborne Sting 3 - but we don't know either the size or the flying weight.
According to Airborne's website the 154 has a certified operating weight range of 189 to 277 and the 168 runs 242 to 331. So for a Rooney Link G rating...
154
- min loaded
- 1.4 - one point
- 0.9 - two point
168
- min loaded
- 0.9 - one point
- 0.7 - two point
(Double all those ratings for a Dr. Trisa Tilletti 260 pound Wrapped and Tied Consistent Weak Link.)
So Lockout says he was flying at 1.5 and Rooney's totally cool with 1.4 as long as he's flying at the bottom end of the little glider.
- 260 pounds of towline tension - proven system that works.
- 284 pounds of towline tension, a couple dozen more, "a bit lower and this guy would have died".
Also... Note that flying a Rooney Link - two point on the:
- little glider puts you a tenth of a G over the bottom of the legal range
- big glider puts you a tenth of a G under the bottom of the legal range
Also... I would argue that flying anything one point is illegal.
- The FAA refers to the max certificated operating weight of the glider.
- Therefore the glider must be certificated to legally aerotow.
- A glider towing without a keel attachment does not have the control range for which the glider was certified (which is one of the two issues that got Zack Marzec killed).
- Therefore you're flying a decertified glider - just like you are when you take a hand off the basetube to pull a release within easy reach. And USHGA totally recognizes the legitimacy of that position because...
...they deleted the requirement that the glider be certified to HGMA or equivalent standards in response to my letter to the FAA. But they're fucked anyway.
We've got these motherfuckers. They're totally trapped by FAR 91.309. Let's see them try to get out of that one - or try to justify why they're trying to get out of that one.
I bet they'll start them rants again very soon.
What makes you think we ever stopped our rants, asshole?
What you Instant-Hands-Free-Release shitheads never seem to be capable of grasping is that it's only very rarely what happens before the focal point of your safe towing system kicks in or somebody makes a good decision in the interest of your safety...
It's what happens for quite some time and altitude after. It ain't over until the glider's flying straight and level again. And it doesn't take a whole helluva lot of pitch down and/or roll when you get to the surface to ruin your day or end your hang gliding career.
I've been in the sport since 1973 and I enjoy reading the DVD archives of old magazines that Mark Forbes very generously scanned into pdf format. I seem to recall the issues from 1973 through 1982 (when I quit the sport) were chock full of accident reports with ample detail for readers to make reasonably informed decisions about their own flying.
Yeah, there's tons of crash data and solid recommendations from back then. How many of those recommendations have been adopted and become Standard Operating Procedure?
I have watched pilots crash and break their pelvises.
Stewart LaBrasca - 2009/08/23 15:04:30 UTC
Seattle
Well, today was a bad day for one pilot. Two pilots who reentered the sport after a ten year sabbatical went up the hill to fly. I have seen this one pilot fly before and had my concerns. I had heard stories about a bad launch which completely totaled the glider. Then on Tuesday I witnessed a launch from this same pilot who clipped a bush after launching.
Today at 1830 the pilot launched without hooking in. He hung onto the glider as it flew low to the ground then released his grip. The pilot sustained a broken femur and or pelvis, broken wrist and multiple contusions and abrasions. He was extricated from the hill which took several hours because of the manner in which he was situated. He was then airlifted to the hospital.
Folks... Please make hang checks MANDATORY in your checklist. It is not embarrassing to ask for a hang check. It's embarrassing to get airlifted off the hill. I am a twenty year hang pilot as well as an airline pilot. Make a checklist, do the checklist and avoid mistakes! Don't be cavalier about safety! It ruins everyone's day.
That one?
The reports I heard from other eye-witnesses left me flabbergasted. I have witnessed a few car crashes and when I was called to testify in one case the accounts I heard from other witnesses again left me scratching my head.
- Weak link was dangerously understrength. Broke at the worst possible time - when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation.
- Weak link was dangerously overstrength. Failed to break soon enough to prevent a dangerously steep climb.
I have served on a few juries including a murder trial and some of the versions of the testimony I heard recited in the jury assembly room by other jurors left me just scratching my head. Is it any wonder I have a receding hairline or any hair left at all for that matter?
What did you think of the official USHGA Zack Marzec fatality report?
So for the most part I agree with what you are saying with the possible exception of the group sorting it out when people know they can speak freely.
What if you have a large percentage of the people in the group heavily invested in making sure things didn't get sorted out? Instructors failing to teach and require critical safety procedures whose negligence has resulted in serious injury or death? Davis/Rooney types endorsing, selling, mandating crap equipment that frequently crashes and occasional kills gliders?
Doesn't gathering and analyzing factual data to draw meaningful conclusions require discipline and methodology?
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity - meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
---
This article was peer-reviewed and approved for publication by the USHPA Towing Committee.
I'm really not sure what you mean by "speak freely". We may have different notions of what that looks like. I hope that means 'freely' as in free from the threat of insults, ridicule, intimidation, etc....
The way I've been treated on every forum I've ever participated in? Add an effective lifetime ban from the sport with zero cause, accusations, charges, hearing.
...and not 'freely' as in a bunch of folks pulling things out of their butts and presenting it as fact...
Got any examples? Just about everything in the "theory' under which damn near all hang gliders have been towed for over three decades was stuff Donnell Hewett pulled out of his butt and presented as fact.
...or 'freely' as in free to heap ridicule or chastise others which whom they disagree.
Or hell, just piss all over someone and his work because one is too fuckin' stupid to understand it and too apathetic to give a rat's ass and it's lotsa fun to gang up on someone trying to do things right.
What I would like to see is a forum where there can be open and frank discussion and presentation of the best available data without the threat of harassment.
Bullshit, Jonathan. If you really meant that you'd be over here.
In order for this to happen we need to moderate ourselves and rid this place of trolls whether anonymous or well-known and we have had both.
Let's not go nuts here, Jonathan. If you rid that place of trolls it would cut the membership to about one percent of what it is now.
The trolls need to go either by open confrontation or reporting to sg for violation of his policies.
1. Fuck you, Jonathan. Jack's one of the biggest trolls you've got over there and the only real policy he's got is that he does whatever the hell he feels like doing.
2. So who are some of these trolls who need to go and what damage are they doing that can't be easily neutralized by discrediting them?
Lest we not forget this is a privately owned forum and not a public park or a news organ. This is sort of like sg's living room and we are his guests.
And how very noble he is to tolerate so many of you assholes in his living room. As far as I'm concerned the motherfucker is a total zero. He hosts and profits from a web forum in which lots of people post their writings. Take away other people's work and what have you got left? One isolated con man with nothing to do or say.
So I agree that an open-sourced accident/incident analysis forum might work.
Work to what? If anything were capable of working how come it hasn't already?
But it requires discipline and rigor to gather sufficient and objective facts then analyze that data into meaningful conclusions or summary of findings. Regardless of what the group thinks or says about any incident each and every pilot needs to be able to draw his or her own conclusions and make his/her own decisions.
Just like in REAL aviation.
Case In Point: Davis made a blog post on his Oz Report a few years ago in which he pointed out a pattern of pilots at comps coming in from fairly high altitudes with hands choked up high on the downtubes and then blowing their landings due to insufficient speed when passing through the wind gradient or words to that effect. At least that is what I personally got out of Davis' post.
What did you personally get out of Davis's posts mandating one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak links which put damn near all gliders near or below the bottom of the legal range?
No telling how long they'd have continued or what would've happened if Davis hadn't locked them down when all the shitheads on his 130 pound Greenspot team started getting their asses really kicked.
To this day I am really not sure whether all the brouhaha has made any perceptible dent in the phenomenon that Davis described.
1. Who gives a flying fuck?
- Anybody with an IQ in the lower double digits or up knows that standup landing approaches and attempts are pretty much all totally unnecessary and dangerous and account for at least ninety percent of crashes and serious injuries in this sport.
- Once people escape the clutches of their basic level instructors nobody's forcing them to continue with this bullshit.
- And there's no system wide misunderstanding or enforced fiction regarding the physics of landings and approaches.
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an groomed surface.
When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.
This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just flying into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.
None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on. Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the ORF has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Sounded to me like you were pretty sure at the time.
And what he described is in fact a serious issue that I see on a recurring basis and continues to result in needless accidents.
And...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...will for as long people insist on doing this stupid shit instead of landing them like all other fixed wing aircraft do.
I will admit that I did a few essentials from ex-Org poster JR that have helped improve my landings.
And they pale in comparison to his contributions to the Zack Marzec discussions.
Not to discourage anyone here.
No. Surely not to discourage anyone THERE.
I am just trying to be realistic about the issue of too many people speaking too 'freely'. The waters can get awfully muddied.
So their instruction sucked so much that that they can't land safely - but got signed off anyway - and they're too stupid to be able to identify and ping in on the people who are actually making sense. Tough shit.
I would think that some form of moderation and facilitation might be helpful to keep the discussion on track and focused. Since there are in fact no moderators on this forum how do we keep it from devolving into a free-for-all?
How could it possibly devolve into anything crappier than it is now?
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Bob K is definitely poison to the sport but in a manner similar to what Jack A is and was knifed in the back for opposing Jack's corruption and duplicity. And here's your idiot take on Bob:
NMERider
I voted for Bob after spending a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him a few months ago. My impression of Bob is that he is a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of both hang gliding and paragliding, and above all: SAFETY.
For the sake of argument let's assume that your perception of Bob is totally on the mark. So how do you justify not doing shit in in the way of defending Bob and condemning Jack and how can you make a case that The Jack Show can ever possibly be a workable system?
And you cite me one tiny scrap of evidence that legitimizes what your lying pigfucker buddy did to Scott and me and his characterization of us. And you cite me one scrap of evidence that I wasn't right on the money with everything I said over there.
Jack's telling you that you're not allowed to make a post about someone or his material or related people - whatever the hell that means - and you're OK with that and think that there's any possible way you've got a foundation for a workable system over there?
ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC
Gold Coast, Queensland
I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.
(PS. For what it's worth, I think Tad spoke a lot of sense.)
Go fuck yourself, Jonathan.
I recall sg was mentioning something about upgrading the BBS to accommodate a rating system regarding poster credibility. I hope this helps with that issue.
Yeah, sure. A bunch of incompetent, dangerous, intellectually castrated...
But what we have in excess here on the Org is generally referred to as a mutual masturbation society. That's where pilots get together and sit around and just jack each other off. That's what I see here in spades.
...mutual masturbation society members running a popularity contest and JACKing each other off with little gold stars whenever they hear what they wanna hear. Cool dudes like Ryan Instant-Hand-Free-Release...
In fact, by your insolence you have done more to reduce safety in this sport than anyone else I can think of in recent history. Your holier than thou attitude and general condescending attitude have been a bane to this forum and this sport for as long as I have returned.
...Voight are gonna be glowing with credibility stars and highly experienced professional pilot Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney are glowing with acclimation for doggedly repeating the same crap that they were taught in the first place. And what kind of credibility scores do you think people who tell them that what they've been taught and what Ryan and Jim are teaching, endorsing, reinforcing is total crap?
Try this logic, Jonathan...
- You and I are in total agreement that hang gliding is a broken system and The Jack Show is overwhelmingly a mutual masturbation society.
- Therefore, if you establish a poster credibility rating system it's the people at the BOTTOM end of the scale that you really wanna be paying attention to.
- And even if someone's legitimately at the bottom end of the scale you really wanna be paying attention to him so you can cut his position - totally clueless but honest like Kinsley Sykes or totally fraudulent and calculating like Davis Rooney - to shreds and brand him as a menace. The LAST thing you wanna do with a menace is to prevent his statements from being heard. You want as many people as possible to hear them and understand WHY what they're saying is nothing but lies and crap so that they can be properly defused, marginalized, sanctioned.
Here's a very good example of a similar lockout situation with the glider low in the prop wash...
Fuck the propwash. That's the pilot wallowing all over the place doing and not doing stuff.
...and well executed recovery from the zoom.
Fuck the well executed recovery from the zoom. For the purpose of the exercise he got killed long before his well executed recovery from the zoom.
Landing technique is less than stellar.
And the deck chairs were very poorly arranged.
Back on topic... Yeah, there were some similarities:
- didn't control the glider
- inaccessible release
- failed to pitch out abruptly to actuate Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release
- tow terminated by focal point of safe towing system without pilot input
- horrendous recovery stall with plenty of altitude in which to recover
And when Mike brought this incident to the attention of you Jack Show dregs he stated:
Also notice the 'saviour of all things bad' weak link offered no help at all.
Well, it actually did because the pilot reported:
The weak link broke as I was about to release.
but obviously not much and not significantly 'cause the situation was - save for the fortune of sufficient altitude - quite lethally tits up well before either form of separation could've made any difference whatsoever in the outcome.
that if this guy had been at playing-for-keeps altitude he would have aborted when the tits were only mildly up.
But anyway... There are 23 responses to this post from people other than Mike including three by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. NOT ONE HINT that the weak link might be three ounces heavier than a Rooney Link or of a suggestion to dumb it down a few pounds to prevent things from getting that far out of whack.
...you can tell that a release within easy reach is being used because a slow progression lockout with a release that DOESN'T stink on ice only gets as far as:
...because when the tug's going one way and the glider's going another the forces are building up so fast that anything's gonna blow within a tenth of a second of anything else.
But what you CAN predict...
- If a locked out glider with:
-- a Rooney Link slams in on or shortly after coming off tow it's because Rooney Links don't prevent lockouts and the pilot:
--- just froze (as did his tug driver)
--- shouldn't have been flying in those conditions (behind his tug driver)
--- thought he:
---- could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over (as did his tug driver)
---- was Superman (as did his tug driver)
-- anything five or more pounds heavier than a Rooney Link - regardless of flying weight, bridle configuration, and/or what the tug's using - slams in on or shortly after coming off tow he'd have come out smelling like a rose if only he had used a Rooney Link. This, of course, is only true when it is or becomes known that he was flying with something five or more pounds heavier than a Rooney Link.
- If Rooney Link pops when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation on:
-- a weekend warrior and crashes, injures, kills him:
--- it's because he didn't have enough tandem aerotow instruction to be able to react properly and quickly enough
--- he'd have been crashed, injured, killed much worse if he'd been using a stronglink
-- a tandem aerotow instructor kills him we:
--- will never really know what happened
--- must not be despicable enough to speculate that he'd have been better off with a stronger weak link
Ya know what would be a great trap for this little shit and his cult members?
- Go up with a Rooney Link in smooth air (which is the only air in which flying a Rooney Link isn't insanely dangerous.
- Deliberately lock the glider out hard at altitude - Marc Fink says you should be good...
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...above 250 feet - and wait for the Rooney Link to pop.
- Post the video and state that the weak link was one and a half Gs and you really learned your lesson.
- Wait for Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Bill Cummings to start running their mouths.
Man, that was scary, Matt! I found myself whispering, "Pull the line! Pull the line!"
"Let go of the basetube and pull the line! Let go of the basetube and pull the line! Don't worry, you'll be perfectly OK!"
I'm so glad that pulling the release worked for this guy, and that he had the altitude to make it safely back to the runway.
Did you actually see this guy pull the release?
Bill Cummings - 2013/12/22 02:56 UTC
The pilot couldn't find his release line tied to one of his shoulder straps.
His beefed up weaklink let go (way late).
Whenever you're purchasing a weak link make sure that it's certified to break within 0.75 seconds.
A hand free release would be a great way to go.
He HAD a hands free release, Bill. Same one you use when your warm weather models are disabled by frozen slush. When you start locking out you just signal your driver to floor it and - bingo - you blow off tow and fly away.
Since this pilot did not respond correctly to prevent first the break stall then failed to correctly respond to prevent the secondary milder stall It seems to me that the pilot was not flying ahead of his glider mentally.
He wasn't flying his glider - period. He was twisting his body to try to make roll input.
In other words not just responding to situations but anticipating them and not being late with control inputs on time.
Not worth discussing. You're supposed to know how to fly before you leave the training hill and start doing other stuff.
Nate Wreyford - 2013/12/22 16:06 UTC
Excellent summary. Not flying ahead of his glider mentally is what led to the lock out.
Hey Nate. Fuck you.
That is the AT version of doing a foot launch with bottle grip, nose high, tinkerbell launch run.
Did his equipment have any bearing on things?
It is not hard to find the release once you enter a lock out.
Yeah, it just boggles the mind the way so many pilots - despite the excellent training they've all had from top notch schools like Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Lockout, Kitty Hawk, Manquin, Ridgely, Morningside, Hang Glide Chicago, Cowboy Up, Wannabe, Mission - just lock onto the basetube until the weak link does or doesn't break and they slam into the ground.
You are locked out after all, no longer able to get back in position (no longer in control)...
Right Nate. You're no longer able to get back in position to continue the tow so that obviously means that you no longer have any influence whatsoever on what's going on with the glider. Take a hand off... Hell take BOTH hands off. See? Nothing happened!
...so it is pointless not to just let a hand go, look down at your release, and get off tow (and get back in control).
- Well yeah. Just like it says in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden and the owner's manual. Nothing bad can happen to you as long as you're using a good Industry Standard release from reputable flight park and follow those simple instructions. Just let a hand go, look down at your release, get off tow, and get back in control. Don't worry about the ground - it won't be anywhere close by while you're getting back in control. And if your release locks up don't forget your backups and hook knife.
- So OBVIOUSLY there's no advantage whatsoever to having a release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube - like Bill just said.
- And, of course, there's also no advantage whatsoever to having a release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube at lockout onset or for any emergency situation not involving a lockout.
Velcroing a bicycle brake lever to your downtube or tying a string to your shoulder or hip is just as good as you'll ever need for anything.
That is hard to do when you are newer to AT and your frontal cortex is occupied by the new experience....
Yeah. That would explain the deaths of Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Steve Elliot.
The weak link is there to protect from structural failure, not a lockout.
But it CAN protect you from a lockout so you should use a really light one with an extremely long track record.
So what weak link do YOU use for aero, Nate? And why and upon whose recommendation?
Premature weak link breaks by weak material create their own safety issues too.
- Oh BULL SHIT! They do NOTHING but increase the safety of the towing operation. The only reason people want stuff that doesn't pop six flights in a row is that they don't wanna be inconvenienced.
- "Weak material" of course meaning only fuzzed out 130 pound Greenspot. If you replace your standard aerotow weak link after ten tows you're good.
- And even if they actually DID create their own safety issues you'll be fine as long as you're wearing a full face helmet.
I miss my RGSA brothers. Have a Merry Christmas!
- And the wonderful folk at Kitty Hawk, Morningside, and Quest so do miss their wonderful brother Zack Marzec. But freak accidents are freak accidents and what are ya gonna do? Premature weak link breaks resulting from weak material create their own safety issues but it's obvious that he was using a fresh standard aerotow weak link because it popped when Mark Frutiger was expecting it to and nobody from Quest or USHGA made any hint of a suggestion that a premature weak link break had the slightest bearing on the subsequent events.
- So how come it was worth your time to comment on this obscure forum about this incident from the opposite side of the planet which resulted in nary a scratch and we didn't get a single word from you on either the Jack or Davis Show on the potential of premature weak link breaks resulting from weak material to create their own safety issues with reference to the Zack Marzec fatality?
- And Bob... Don't think for a nanosecond that I'm not watching the patterns of your responses to and ignoring of various posts. Your whole goal in life is to be a friend to every pilot you meet - 'cept, of course, for ACTUAL pilots trying to get the sport pulled up out of the sewer - and you can't do that if you ever say anything of any substance.
- And Bill... Don't think for a nanosecond that I'm not watching you letting this asshole get away with writing this crap. As far as I'm concerned when people in these discussions remain silent they're signifying agreement.
If the flight parks insist on the use of a standard each pilot still has the ability to blow the pilots weaklink with more tow force or less tow force just by increasing or decreasing the length of the shoulder to shoulder pro tow bridle.
Just adjust the bridle to a length of about 0.75 seconds and you're good to go.
P.S. And all this time I was thinking that weak links were rated based on the length of the loop. Go figure.
