landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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NMERider
Posts: 100
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Re: landing

Post by NMERider »

Dave Gills wrote:
NMERider wrote:One of Tad's all-time NME favs!
So that is what I've been practicing my whole life for?

I thought I had to land on a bar stool for my H5.
For your H5 you simply have to not fall off the bar stool. :P
Seriously, we've been practicing our whole lives to avoid the necessity of such landings. :oops: :lol:
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

NMERider - 2015/11/03 19:52:04 UTC

One of Tad's all-time NME favs!
Jeez Jonathan...

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Dontchya know you're supposed to keep your back arched and your legs back...

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...for a proper XC landing? Either take a clinic from Ryan to get things right or start landing in wider and wetter riverbeds with smaller and fewer rocks strewn all over the place.
Dave Gills - 2015/11/03 22:43:23 UTC

So that is what I've been practicing my whole life for?
Yep. It's just a matter of time before your number comes up - so get that flare timing perfected as soon as possible.
NMERider - 2015/11/04 00:53:44 UTC

For your H5 you simply have to not fall off the bar stool. :P
Seven months and seven days ago Kelly Harrison showed the world the actual meaning and value of a u$hPa Master pilot rating. Extremely wide dry lakebed with nary a rock of any description strewn anywhere within its periphery.
NMERider - 2015/11/03 04:47:56 UTC

Do a reverse pattern while swooping a co-owner of the company that built the glider you borrowed for a demo flight.
Crap. Now I've gotta do another stills project to highlight all the landing safety rules violations.

Dave... Good hang gliding rule of thumb: Whenever you're doing something that looks and feels cool and fun you're almost certainly doing things right with lotsa safety margin.

Jonathan maxes out at 57.8 mph in that approach. Vne for that glider is 53. He could and did do anything he felt like with that head o' steam. And none of it was stupid adrenaline/testosterone stuff. Jesse, by way of contrast, came in with "plenty" of speed and was only able to "correct" for the thermal pop.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
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http://vimeo.com/50158495


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Hook-in check.

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Good breeze, right cross, landing will be from down- to upstream with respect to the river.

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Spreader preventing carabiner from being crushed. Good to see that you're reading the fuckin' manual, Richard.

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Bar way back at end of final and in preparation for 180 back around to final. (Base eliminated for all practical purposes.)

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Note bar position.

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Watch our directional/roll control turn to crap as we transition to the control tubes.

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Obligatory snag on the tail wire.

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There. Got it.

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Oops.

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Got it on the first try. Not bad.

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So what do we think happens to an arm or shoulder should - heaven forbid - the glider come to an abrupt stop at some point in the near future?

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Well, that's just the price we might hafta pay for enhanced flare and roll control authority.

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Light cross coming through the gap.

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http://vimeo.com/50158495
Rock and roll day at Hyner and a forced landing on the wheels
David Stevens - 2012/09/25 14:17

Wasn't too fun launching at 2:15 PM on an overcast day. Winds were 10 mph STFI but it was really weird stuff. Ended up getting kicked around for 13 minutes all the way down to the LZ. Didn't mean to end up on my wheels but it was probably best that I did.
1. While Jesse came into strip with plenty of speed on a beautiful day in the mountains - in conditions not one individual has yet found worthy of a word of comment - and missed. Go figure.

2. News bulletin, David... Pretty much all landings on a hang glider, once you've gotten down to a few hundred feet over the LZ, are forced.

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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33504
Another fatal accident
Dave Hopkins - 2015/10/13 02:28:27 UTC

I heard the pilot had taken a few yrs off and was getting back into flying.
And yet...
Earth Magnet - 2015/10/12 22:34:54 UTC
Central Pennsylvania

Jesse flying.

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He's the only one who got high that day.
He was the only one who got high that day. But then after kicking everyone else's asses in thermal flying he became rusty and stupid again on final.

And the fact that nobody else got high that day suggests that the "thermal activity" in the LZ on that beautiful day in the mountains couldn't have been all that insanely violent.
Charles Fager - 2015/10/12 15:10:30 UTC

Until then let us respect the pilot, relatives and the many friends that had to witness this tragedy.
Yeah, let's respect the pilot by allowing Dave Hopkins to characterize him as being too fucking clueless to restrict his flying to morning and evening sledders for a few weekends until he'd relearned how to shoot a final into a Hang Two airstrip in mild afternoon thermal conditions.

At the very least...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33501
How we judge our flying risk
Dave Hopkins - 2015/10/15 14:25:26 UTC

I agree with going upright at a decent alti. Head down with hands on the base tube has killed several pilots. Eliminate that from your flying and fight Accelerated risk factor. Image
...we needed to get him to agree with going upright at a decent alti. Head down with hands on the basetube has killed several pilots. And now we can add this one 'cause it's a no brainer that he was head down with hands on the basetube when he clipped the tree and spun in. Seems to be...

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...a pretty endemic problem amongst the Four crowd at that site.

And note that not one of the many "friends" that had to witness this tragedy has stepped up to refute Idiot Dave's idiot assessment.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
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NMERider - 2015/11/03 04:47:56 UTC

Do a reverse pattern while swooping a co-owner of the company that built the glider you borrowed for a demo flight. Wheels would have been fun here too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW-jS0X4u18
Tad Eareckson - 2015/11/04 02:11:59 UTC

Crap. Now I gotta do another stills project to highlight all the landing safety rules violations.
This is what an approach should look like. Most of the stills - 68 total - illustrate extremes of control inputs.

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We're starting with a VG cord pull. Three will have been completed by 0212. Note the sail flattening.

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Need to slide that spreader up an inch and a half or two, Jonathan.

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Keep an eye on the airspeed.

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We've just hit Vne.

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Show's what a joke hang glider placard limitations are.

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Peak airspeed steady over next three stills - 4.8 mph over Vne.

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Watch the VG come off in a span of half a second.

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Note wing acting like ailerons.

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Note that we still have both hands on the control tubes connector bar at minus a dozen feet AGL. Also note how few large rocks are strewn all over the place in the target area.

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Way short of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ, Jonathan. D/D+.

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NMERider
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Re: landing

Post by NMERider »

Tad Eareckson wrote:....Way short of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ, Jonathan. D/D+....
Oh Darn! There go my H-5 chances all shot to Hell. :shock: :? :roll:
Would have been fun with wheels.
Gotta love that billow shift.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Every foot landing to which we commit on sane surfaces in light air / with high groundspeed is, at best, an opportunity for fun lost forever. And at worst...

A few highlight excerpts from the collection:

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Vne:

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Peak airspeed:

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?
Tom Lyon - 2014/02/04 07:55:19 UTC

That's what I was referring to when I commented on turns near the ground elsewhere. I see so many landings where a low turn from base to final is just standard. And almost all of us have either seen, or know of someone who caught a wingtip or otherwise landed while in a turn. It's so dangerous.

In learning to fly the sailplanes, I had it drilled into me that below 200 feet, my options did not include anything more than maybe a very slight turn to avoid hitting an obstacle. Like 30 degrees from my heading may. A slight bank.

I see hang gliders make 90 degree turns from base to final at maybe 50' - 75' AGL fairly often. And I always cringe. Turns down low definitely appear to be something (from my very limited experience) that our sport needs to take more seriously in terms of avoidance.
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VG off:

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Billow shift:

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Tom Lyon - 2014/02/04 07:55:19 UTC

I see hang gliders make 90 degree turns from base to final at maybe 50' - 75' AGL fairly often. And I always cringe. Turns down low definitely appear to be something (from my very limited experience) that our sport needs to take more seriously in terms of avoidance.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

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NMERider - 2015/11/03 19:52:04 UTC

One of Tad's all-time NME favs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkOBloE_53U


Unfortunately, age is taking a toll on my joints due to arthritis and various sprains so I'll need to stay close to Happy Acres henceforth.
01-0000
- 01 - chronological order
- 00 - seconds
- 00 - frame (30 fps)

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So where was my hook-in check?

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Just west of Rim of the World Highway and Lake George Drive intersection:

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Rim of the World High School:

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City Creek Road WSW of Running Springs:

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Buildings at 34.144565, -117.058566:

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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

So here's the landing for which one hundred percent of Hang Zeroes begin training on Day One, Flight One and work their entire careers to perfect so's they'll be able to pull it off flawlessly WHEN - not IF - they find themselves in a similar situation:

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regardless of any complications involving thermals, gusts, lulls, rotors, direction shifts, invisible dust devils. (Or maybe you'll only go down in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place when the air is glassy smooth - u$hPa's not entirely clear on the issue.)

After one has gotten his Five and run a hang gliding school for thirty or forty years it will look like this:

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one out of ten attempts on the home Happy Acres putting green - as long as the air isn't doing anything the least bit interesting.

Here's one of the strips at which people actually land and occasionally kill themselves as a consequence of practicing to safely land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place and getting hit by an invisible dust devil at a hundred feet:

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(Pity Joe Julik didn't attempt to hook the invisible dust devil and climb back out. Oh well...) (And funny that one never hears about Dragonflies or conventional fixed wing aircraft getting killed by invisible dust devils leaving or approaching runways.)

And here's an LZ at which a Four with a couple of decades under his belt, a great pilot, can come in with plenty of speed and correct for a thermal pop - like one of the thermal pops he'd shortly before been exploiting to kick everyone else's asses - and get killed instantly:

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33504
Another fatal accident
Rodger Hoyt - 2015/10/13 17:06:30 UTC

That's a fundamentally flawed landing field. Too narrow, too much tree rotor. I wouldn't go near that even as an emergency bailout (especially with a 42-foot span rigid). It's just a matter of time until another accident there.
Got it, people of varying ages?

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Safe landing option for any solid 2.0 with the perfected flare timing commensurate with his rating.

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Unsafe at any speed for any pilot of any rating in any conditions.
---
P.S. - 2015/11/19 21:20:00 UTC

And note the absence of little wind flags planted near the touchdown point in the safe landing environment.
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33697
The reasons why PG is dominating HG
mario - 2015/11/21 06:36:34 UTC
California

As one who loves hiking and flying, paragliding sounds perfect for me, except...

I remember hiking/climbing in the alps years ago and watching a guy pull his wing out of his backpack when he reached the top. I was soooooo jealous.

My guess is that if the majority of hang glider landings were actually graceful...
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...we would have a small but helpful influx of PG pilots learning to fly hang gliders. Right now, I see the trend going the other way for the reasons already mentioned.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
Dan Lukaszewicz - 2015/11/21 13:44:14 UTC
Alexandria, Virginia

A LZ for a safe landing is quite small...
1. Yeah. For a safe hang glider landing THIS:

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LZ is way too small.

2. So how come one hundred percent of hang glider LZs are so big that we can afford to throw out every foot of the first half as an option in order to be able to nail the old Frisbee in the middle?

How come we're perpetually admonished to re-read the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?" yet everyone so totally ignores his unguarded, off-the-record, blindingly obvious, dead on statement - which preceded his "Safety Thing" article by something far in excess of four years - that nobody will fly hang gliders because of the insanely dangerous foot landings the industry and culture force all participants to perfect their entire careers?
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