Dave Gills - 2015/03/17 18:21:29 UTC
Grove City, Pennsylvania
I have to travel 3 1/2 hours one way to get lessons...
Ridgely? Better add an hour.
...so I was just wondering.
Tell 'em go fuck themselves for me. And when you see Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney ask him what a standard aerotow weak link is - currently - and how the people actually working on things arrived at that standard.
Probably best for me to stay over and make a weekend out of it.
Make sure you get a top notch tandem instructor...
...who can teach you how to safely launch in a wide range of conditions.
BTW...I am a new H2 with only 3 hrs of Mtn. flying time.
Back in the days before the sport got hopelessly stupid and corrupt a someone with only three hours of mountain time was a new Three.
Tiberiu Szollosi - 2015/03/17 18:32:07 UTC
If you're already a solid h2 a couple days
I came back to flying after 10 years off and went solo after 2 days.
I went solo one point foot launch behind a fast Cosmos trike on my first shot and survived just fine.
piano_man - 2015/03/17 18:43:39 UTC
It all depends on your skills/knowledge.
The less knowledge you get from professional aerotow assholes the better off you'll be.
I had a couple o hundred mt. flights maybe 90 hrs, 5 years or so of experience. Went down to Florida for WW demo days and was signed off after 1 flight.
Probably a lot better than Lois Preston. She got killed on her second solo.
Of course, I cherry picked the day to fly my tandem.
Oh yeah. Since WALLABY is EQIPPED for tandem the Dr. Trisa Tilletti SOPs MANDATE you fly tandem to get rated by them.
I went down there a week earlier to help make sure I had the time to get signed off so that I could fly solo.
Fuck tandem. Save it for the goddam thrill riders.
The point of the trip was to buy a wing.
That sure can't hurt when you're looking for a signoff.
The first couple of days the air was "active" and I was told I probably would not get to do any of the flying.
Yeah, no fuckin' way could a guy with ninety hours safely handle "active" air.
So I waited maybe 3 days. Watched the operations all day...
That must've been real entertaining and educational.
....read from Pagens Towing aloft book.
And it made SENSE to you? I guess you liked the part (all of it) in which it's totally impossible for anything bad to happen to anybody with a standard aerotow weak link.
Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there. ) Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. She was trying to dial 911. My friend suffered lower back injury.
I said yep, so off we went one early evening; I flew the entire flight just fine, so he signed me off.
Good thing you hadn't tried flying in any of that active air three days prior.
On the other hand, I saw a student there who had (as I recall) maybe 20 tandems (at $120 or so a pop) and she still had not been signed off. The difference is she didn't have any mountain flights, years experience, hours of solo airtime, in short the skills.
Plus she was paying $120 or so a pop for tandems.
So - it's all up to you; experience, your situation, your skills.
...your standard aerotow weak link, your tug pilot constantly poised make a good decision in the interest of your safety.
Dave Gills - 2015/03/17 19:02:28 UTC
That makes me feel better.
I thought it was like getting my H2 all over again.
How was it getting your Two? I got mine over a long Easter weekend after never having previously clipped into a glider.
I'm fine with 3 weekends if it takes that long.
AT scares me more than a full wire crew cliff launch.
...before you go. It's nice to have the capability of releasing yourself in an emergency situation instead of just waiting for impact the way everyone else does.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...to keep something like that from happening? I mean besides honing your standard aerotow weak link break recovery skills in tandem simulations in smooth air at two thousand feet? What weak link do you think you'd be most happy with and why?
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.
Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.
Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.
Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE
I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.
You banned the one guy who had the most knowledge about safety issues involving what Ian believes and what obviously is the most dangerous part of our sport. And it didn't matter.
Dave just watches the videos and sees just how well their horribly dangerous devices are working and gets scared shitless - just as he should be. Just as anybody with half a brain or better should be hooking up behind a Dragonfly with some total fucking douchebag like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney with his hand on the dump lever.
And Tuesday you permanently silenced michael170. Keep up the great work.
Must've been fun at the dawn of this sport before things got geared up to reward stupidity and corruption and punish intelligence, creativity, innovation, and common decency. By the time I got into it in 1980 that period was pretty much history.
...I got towed up six times on a tandem glider, three of those were to 2500 feet, and three were 700 foot "surprise" releases (simulated weak link breaks, though it was pretty obvious they were going to happen).
It's pretty fuckin' obvious what's gonna happen with Davis Links too...
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...after three or four consecutive pops coming off the cart in light morning conditions - endless repetitions of coincidences with the operators endlessly expecting better results.
Other than the first couple of hundred feet on the first tow, the instructor never touched the control frame.
One hand on the release lever coming off the cart though. Ain't it great what you can accomplish on a towed hang glider when you have more than two hands available!
Then eight tows on a Falcon, and on to a DS wing from there.
On a double surface wing you can learn how to pro tow. Did you learn how to pro tow on the double surface wing?
Craig Hassan - 2015/03/18 00:00:07 UTC
Yeah it could be one or two flights. Could be a dozen followed by a bunch of supervised solo tows. All depends on how YOU do.
And, of course, how much money they wanna squeeze out of you.
AT is not to be feared but it is to be respected.
COMPETENT AT is not to be feared much. But you're dealing with incompetent law breaking motherfuckers pretty much anywhere you wanna go. And that IS to be feared. And I was SCARED every launch I ever made at Ridgely because of the crap equipment and drivers on the other end regulating my power.
Just fly the glider (fast) and follow the tug.
If he's on tow behind a tug how much choice in speed does he get?
Never be afraid to pull the release if you are uncomfortable.
He was uncomfortable because he decided to launch on a defective cart yet he was afraid to release. But that was pretty much OK anyway 'cause he missed the keel with his head and had an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less which prevented him from being dragged.
Be like one of the authors of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
He was uncomfortable because he prefers the "freedom" of towing from the shoulders to the freedom of being able to keep his glider from going up like a rocket and was thus tending out to the left. So he did the smart thing and fearlessly pulled his release and was rewarded with the glider instantly whipping to the side in a wingover "maneuver". Normally you wanna stay over five hundred feet and in smooth air when you do aerobatics but they're no problem below 150 in monster thermals when you come off aerotow.
Mel Torres - 2015/03/18 03:30:40 UTC
This past Dec I took two tandems flights with an instructor and 2 solo flight. BAM...! I got mine in four flights total! Of course I have 12 years prior experience (1978-1990 with over 500+ hrs). I recently became USHPA legal back in May 2013. I'm 3 spot landings away from my H4.
As I was quite experienced and a certified instructor in 1992, the owner of the aerotowing operation I went to let me go solo for my first tow. Bad idea, especially on my Supersport, which had a reputation for being squirrely on tow. I had to abort really low twice and then on the third attempt got a low wing right off the cart. The wingtip hit the ground, then the rest of the glider. Miraculously, all that broke was the weak link.
Am grateful to see your willingness to take one small step "back" as a means of flying forward. A small investment in many more wonderful flights. May you be an inspiration to others who may be looking for a way back into the sky after more time away.
Things can get ugly fast when your standard aerotow safety device kicks in.
Jack Barth - 2015/03/18 14:09:53 UTC
Took me one day. Five consecutive flights without any issues.
I was pooped by end of day.
Not bad. So what was it, in your opinion, that went wrong with Zack Marzec's flight a couple years ago?
smokenjoe50 - 2015/03/18 14:22:36 UTC
2 tandem and 1 solo.
David Scott - 2015/03/18 15:49:34 UTC
Portland, Oregon
Same. Pounding the fourth landing did not help.
No shit.
So just how much did trying a foot landing at an aerotow operation help?
A good tow pilot and good teacher (thank you Larry Jorgensen) can make all the difference.
Did you have any trouble with...
33-030202
...lockouts?
lesio - 2015/03/18 16:16:53 UTC
Ontario
Dave,
You may also get some AT training using winch and AT dolly.
This was the way guys from "Instinct" introduced me and number of others to AT.
They introduced you to TOWING - not AEROTOWING. Not that it makes any significant difference.
I think this was a great idea, as it gives you the "feel" of it, before you hook up to the tug.
And it gives the AT operations a lot less justification for gouging you.
Dave Gills - 2015/03/18 17:53:08 UTC
I think this would be a great way to start.
The dolly for me is a new thing.
I'd rather have one new thing at a time.
Me to. I'd rather level the glider and trim the pitch, run like hell with my hands on the downtubes within easy reach of my release lever, maintaining and adjusting roll and pitch as necessary, rotate to prone, and kick into my boot with the harness being pulled forward than just lie down on a cart and wait for my glider to become airborne. Not a big fan of complexity. KISS.
piano_man - 2015/03/18 19:52:35 UTC
Yep, one thing at a time, good thinking.
And remember it's another thing to pre-flight - the dolly that is.
Yeah. Preflighting a dolly. That's a biggie. So much more demanding and dangerous than foot launching.
And make no mistake about it, as others have mentioned, towing deserves the utmost respect.
Yeah, all these fuckin' Jack Show douchebags who will go up for decades with whatever cheap bent pin junk Aerotow Industry shits will sell them and all the lunatic beliefs in Sacred Fishing Line that Aerotow Industry shits will feed them. Utmost respect.
Towing definitely makes taking to the air more complex IMO;
Unless you compare the complexity of the physical actions involved in running off a shallow rocky slope with trees all over the place and no bailout options to lying down on a cart with a forced hook-in check and locked level with a good pitch attitude in the middle of a mega putting green and waiting to be accelerated to anything you want pretty much regardless of what a moderate wind is doing.
...there are more components, more people (tug pilot) involved.
Is one tug "pilot" more people than a four man wire crew?
Learn to recognize what a lock out looks like...
- For starters learn that it looks like one word.
- Yeah, that's a biggie, Dave. Most people just don't realize that anything's amiss when the horizon tilts and the tug starts disappearing to the side.
12-10013
...as it develops and learn to release BEFORE it does.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
Always release the towline before there is a problem.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2015/03/20
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Just be sure to use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. You'll be fine.
Craig Hassan - 2015/03/18 22:05:33 UTC
I learned to fly on a scooter tow. As part of that training we learned to launch from a dolly.
Can you relay any fine points? I never seem to hear much discussion on the skills involved in dolly launching.
When it came time for AT it was a very familiar tow and went off without a hitch. Now I did have a healthy number of scooter tow launches before I tried AT. That included many soaring flights amounting to much more than 3 hours flight time.
In preparation I practiced flying my glider much faster than trim speeds. I towed and flew 30-35 mph all the way down just to get a feel for how inputs worked at tow speeds. I think those flights were good lessons.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Get a release from Joe Street...
Got one.
I've added 4 more since this pic was taken and am checking them out now.
I want to try modifying a Russian for use in a 2 point.
Then I'm going to scooter tow with it before going to the place I found in Ohio called Wings to Fly.
Another breath of fresh air. A lot of work, thought, engineering went into that thing.
I've added 4 more since this pic was taken and am checking them out now.
Good. That's the only decent commercially available two point aerotow release on the planet. There are a few individuals scattered here and there whose existences are critical to any hope for a healthy sport of hang gliding.
I want to try modifying a Russian for use in a 2 point.
I hate to discourage experimentation / efforts at innovation but I'm having a hard time seeing how that path would lead to something as good as what you already have.
Then I'm going to scooter tow with it before going to the place I found in Ohio called Wings to Fly.
Really good place...
Joe Gregor - 2005/07
An extremely experienced pilot was launching a new Falcon 2 via scooter tow. The bridle system used employed two lines: one attached high on the harness for the initial climb-out, and one attached lower for the high altitude portion of the tow. The pilot failed to hook in prior to launch and held onto the control frame (assisted by the upper towline hanging over the bar) until he released at approximately fifty feet. The glider was locked out by this time as the pilot let go with one hand to effect the release. The pilot was propelled through a pine tree, dislocating his shoulder and breaking an arm. The reporter listed a number of factors contributing to this accident including: moving the glider while wearing the harness unhooked; failure of pilot to perform a hook-in check, perhaps due to shared responsibility for the launch; fatigue at the end of a long day; use of a double release system that is difficult to locate in an emergency; poor radio communication with the tow operator; and possible lack of a weak link. An additional factor may have been the high experience level of the accident pilot leading all involved to worry less about backup safety checks.
...if you're gonna foot launch, have a release you can blow while continuing to fly the glider, and use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. ('Specially good to have an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less for unhooked launches.)
Tad Eareckson wrote:I hate to discourage experimentation / efforts at innovation but I'm having a hard time seeing how that path would lead to something as good as what you already have.
My goal involves 2 things...
1) 2 point setup
...* obvious reasons
2) Mouth release as a primary
...* Because I may have a death grip on the cart handles when I want to release, thus preventing me from sliding my hand.
...* I could lose hold of the release loop for some unknown reason.
...* I might have to reposition my hand during launch.
My local scooter guy is almost up and running so I'll soon have a chance to test my setup.
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC
Incorrect understanding.
...to whom?
2) Mouth release as a primary
...* Because I may have a death grip on the cart handles when I want to release, thus preventing me from sliding my hand.
What's the scenario?
Let's take a total shit operation like Florida Ridge which will happily launch gliders on an armadillo burrow riddled runway.
Yesterday was a very emotional day for me and my household. My better half did something that I really didn't expect from a medical student/mother/busy no time to waste...
This would be the final flight of the day, just in front of her was a student tandem flight about to launch, so I was headed back to the car to finalize the packing up when I heard the tug make the familiar sound it does when a weak link breaks.
I looked back to see the tug circle around and saw a wing turned up in a WHACK configuration. I was like "wow". Then I noticed it wasn't the tandem but Sherb-Air's Falcon 170.
When I got there her nose was lacerated and her lip was bleeding (yeah, she had a full face helmet) and the dolly's left wheel was missing.
The radiography showed acute multiple fractures around the top and head of the humerus. Her nose didn't break but she may have hairline fractures to the septum. She had a hard time remembering the date, day, names of her kids, number of kids, and other basic things...
The dolly had hit a huge hole and she went left shoulder into the ground at 25+ mph.
...if you wanna fly with those assholes (which I don't).
If you don't walk the runway you hafta be able to detect the hazard on the roll. And there will be no reason to be having a death grip on the hold-downs. And even if you do abort before you get to the burrow you might not stop in good enough shape to be able to fly again.
And if you don't see the burrow in time to react it's highly unlikely that the best conceivable equipment on the planet - including the Miracle One-Size-Fits-All Davis Link Sheryl was undoubtedly using (the one that shortly thereafter would half kill her idiot husband) - is gonna make any difference whatsoever.
happened to Davis solely because those assholes elected to combine known defective dollies with known totally useless shit Industry Standard releases.
One of the factors - easily arguably the primary - that killed Norway's former national champion...
...at the bullshit 2005 Worlds was that they were using shit carts - along with shit everything else including/especially shit meet heads and tug drivers - that Robin refused to use.
I've never heard of and can't imagine a scenario in which one would be on a cart with a death grip on the hold-downs unable to slide a hand. (On the setup I developed, by the way...
Where people DO have death grips on basetubes is after the cart's long gone and during low level lockouts when they'll live a second and a half longer with a death grip on the basetube than they will by making the easy reach to the brake lever velcroed onto the downtube.
In theory a bite controlled actuator, which currently exists only for one point, or a basetube button, which currently doesn't exist at all, would be the best options. But when I had the shit kicked out of me at twenty-four hundred feet (where it didn't matter) my limiting factor was getting my brain to start working again after being frozen by the shock of the violence that I was experiencing. I think I was rolled to seventy degrees or more too quickly to comprehend what was happening.
I slid my hand inboard, beat the Rooney Link, and finished thirty feet lower than I'd started out. A better actuator would've made no measurable difference and if I'd been hit shortly after coming off the cart I'd have been dead.
There's stuff we can't afford to launch into on a tow flight just as there is on a free flight. Converting from tow to free instantly and without further control compromise is highly unlikely to do us any good if we're being thrown on our ears by dust devils before we clear a hundred feet or so.
...* I could lose hold of the release loop for some unknown reason.
Example 1: As system that is "instant" and is activated by the a minor movement of one hand. Won't work for me... I move my hands when I'm towing. Hell, I got flaps to trim, instruments to adjust, control bar to move, visor to adjust, nose to pick, radio to use. I guess you could say I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do... fly the aircraft. I can't have my tow release pop me off just because I got a little twitch in my pinky finger. For me, the right thing is to have a release that is available and within reach that is simple and reliable. Critical to this release is a good understanding of what are reasonably limitations to how badly out of shape a tow can get and still save the tow. Think about it, most sailplane release systems are mounted on the dash, leaving the pilot free to manage the aircraft... the first order of business, "fly the aircraft".
Example 2: A mouth release. At first I thought, not a bad idea... then I realized, in our towing operation, communications is key, so how the heck are you going to use your radio well clamping down on mouth release?
Dallas Willis - 2008/12/23 20:16:31 UTC
Also, during the first 500 feet of the tow (the most dangerous part), I'd submit that you should keep your hands right where they are on the control frame doing as you said "flying the aircraft". "I got flaps to trim, instruments to adjust, control bar to move, visor to adjust, nose to pick, radio to use. I guess you could say I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do... fly the aircraft." Outside of moving your control bar *none* of that is flying the aircraft. Once you get up high then it's no problem to let go of whatever release and fiddle with your zipper, your visor, your instruments, what have you, and then regrab the release when you're done. If you forgot something or really just don't want to be on tow without adjusting an instrument or what have you and you're low, then the solution is to get off tow *not* to quit flying the aircraft and focus on your visor.
Put your hands where they're supposed to be before you give the OK and leave them there.
Don't try to engineer a system - adding a lot of complexity, expense, drag, weight - to solve nonexistent problems and/or compensate for the person under the glider being an incompetent fuck-up. I'm as much of a scatterbrained fuck-up as anyone but even I'm totally confident in my abilities to properly set up and preflight my glider / harness / towing equipment / dolly configuration.
Also recognize that even if you make a major mistake or even two you're very unlikely to get smashed as a punishment.
Zack C made one of the mistakes you're worried about. He didn't die, get scratched, bend a downtube. He wasn't even aware of an issue until he was way the fuck up there and was off tow anyway within two seconds of being aware he had a problem. And two seconds is about what it takes the assholes who fly Industry Standard junk to blow tow under routine circumstances.
It ALMOST ALWAYS takes three major issues - two of them known, the other a wild card - to make the day end really badly.
Zack Marzec ELECTED to fly:
with:
- a Rooney Link which was either il or marginally legal and was well known to be the single biggest precipitator of serious crashes in hang gliding
- a piece o' crap pro toad bridle which totally decertifies the glider
into a monster thermal with aforementioned stupid shit gear at an altitude too low for his parachute to be of any use
Tug flew through the crap with no problem whatsoever, glider got tumbled and killed, big fuckin' surprise.
He also had total shit for a "release" but that wasn't a factor - just more evidence of a total disaster looking for ways to line things up to make it happen.
This nicely sums up the reason I've never given a flying fuck about helmet quality/performance:
My personal opinion is, yes, helmet could save your head, but the range of deceleration event for this to happen is very narrow. Anything below that deceleration is not worth it, and anything above - the helmet won't help much, your brain will be mush anyway, or your back will be broken. It will be much more beneficial to learn to avoid the kind of situations that will lead to "helmet protection" event. I was asked once at the takeoff: "Why you guys wear helmets?" I said: "It is for the relatives, to recognize your face."
We can't afford to get into situations in which a percent or two's worth of better protection is likely to do us some good.
Yeah, wear some kind of helmet so you have something between your skull and the keel if you nose in. Make it a full face if you want so you don't do eight stitches worth to your upper lip if you end up kissing the basetube (like I did). Don't expect it to work as a stupidity/incompetence neutralizer.
Similar deal on trying to use a light weak link as an instant hands free release / lockout protector. There WILL BE a set of circumstances when it'll make the difference between pulling out and slamming in. The chance of you experiencing that set of circumstances is about one in a million, the chances of the goddam thing dumping you into a whipstall are WAY better, and any asshole is ALWAYS gonna be able to beat a Rooney Link with a half decent release.
It will be much more beneficial to learn to avoid the kind of situations that will lead to "helmet protection" event.
Ditto for towing. You're much better off understanding where the REAL problems are happening and putting gliders out of control - regardless of whether or not the ground is close enough to make a difference - and making sure you're properly dealing with the issues.
You've got a perfectly good primary release, your secondary is excellent. Use a one and a half G weak link, basic flying skill and judgment, and common sense. If the incompetent assholes and their junk on the front end don't fuck you over when the shit’s hitting the fan you'll be fine.
(I don't fly anymore 'cause a competent pilot doesn't go up with incompetent assholes and their junk on the front end - but that's another post (at least).)
We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
You've got to hook in. Period. Can't emphasize that enough. Things tend to get ugly fast if you run off a cliff when you're not hooked in.
Craig's a certifiable moron in the ballpark of Diev...
Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.
...which believes it can stem the towing fatality rate by regurgitating Industry cover-up platitudes.
Hang gliders have crappy roll authority to begin with, towed hang gliders are roll unstable as hell, and aero is the most dangerous flavor of towing. Shit like this:
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
can hit one at any time in thermal conditions and, after training, there's not much point in towing in stable conditions.
Aerotowing is a balancing act and anyone can be blown off the wire by one well placed thermal at any moment. My advice would be to pull the release if you ARE comfortable then land and start looking for another hobby. Likewise if you're standing at the edge of a cliff confident that you're hooked in and about to launch...
My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
...is ultimately all you've got going for you.
Dave Gills - 2015/03/17 19:02:28 UTC
AT scares me more than a full wire crew cliff launch.
Good. It should. You have a lot more control of the situation in a full wire crew cliff launch and your period of vulnerability - if there even is one - is something on the order of a second. On an aerotow launch you've got a kill zone of about two hundred feet you've gotta clear.
Craig Hassan - 2015/03/18 00:00:07 UTC
AT is not to be feared but it is to be respected.
If this off the scale stupid Rooney Linking pro toad motherfucker had launched at the same time and place that Zack Marzec did on 2013/02/02 he'd have been just as fatally freak accidented. You can bet your bottom dollar that Zack was uncomfortable when he was standing on his tail with the bar stuffed and he didn't need any dickheads telling him not to be afraid to pull the release - the window for that option was well behind him (and his idiot driver). But, what the hell, his standard 130 pound test fishing line instant hands free release / Pilot In Command kicked in just then anyway and fatally increased the safety of the towing operation.
And note that Craig's ass was one hundred percent absent from the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.
AT is to be respected AND feared. I don't know what the point in respecting something is if it's NOT to be feared. I don't have all that much respect for making sure my helmet's buckled before launch. If AT were not to be feared Dragonflies would tow students around at a hundred feet to let them get the feel of things and the U$hPA AT rating requirements wouldn't read:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow
05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
(Sounds like they're really not all that comfortable with pulling the release when they're uncomfortable - don't it? Also sounds like they're making more of that...
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.)
NOBODY releases from tow because he's UNCOMFORTABLE. One releases from tow for one of three reasons:
- topped out
- found sustainable lift
- locking out
Otherwise one does what a tow pilot's supposed to do - minimize discomfort by staying in position and reduce discomfort by getting back into position. And NOBODY needs to be or benefits from being TOLD this.
We at Wills Wing feel that the most important role of the dealer is to insure the safety of the retail customer and promote the safe growth of the sport by offering quality instruction and service. It is primarily on our determination of your ability to do that that we grant dealerships and corresponding discounts.
The responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include:
A) Offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.
B) Being able to access all relevant technical and support information regarding Wills Wing products.
C) Performing a thorough inspection and conducting a quality control flight check on each glider you sell prior to delivering it to the customer.
D) Review and completion of all items on the dealer glider delivery check list prior to delivering the glider to the customer.
E) Assembling, testing, and or adjusting each accessory item before delivering it to the customer.
F) Familiarizing each customer with the proper use of each product that you sell to that customer.
G) For each item that you sell, determining prior to delivery that the customer is qualified to use the product safely, withholding delivery of any item that the customer is not qualified to use safely, and providing the necessary training and instruction to the customer so that they will be able to use the product safely. As a matter of policy, you are prohibited from delivering any product to a pilot that does not possess the skills and knowledge required to use it safely.
J) Complying with Wills Wing policies as listed and explained herein and in other dealer documents.
K) Having all business licenses necessary in accordance with the local laws in your area in addition to carrying a business listing in your local phone book.
L) Completing all questionnaires and surveys sent to you by Wills Wing.
M) We also encourage you to support your local Hang Gliding Association.
We determine dealer density on a case by case basis, based on how we feel we can best service our customers, support the dealer with an adequate existing or potential market of customers, and secure adequate market representation for our products.
Because our policies require that you personally familiarize each customer with the proper and safe use of each product you deliver, and ascertain that the customer is qualified to use the product safely, you will not be able to ship products to customers outside of your immediate area and remain in compliance with our policies. For the same reason, we will not drop ship items to your customers from the factory. Because we have granted this dealership based on area market considerations, and based on our evaluation of your personal ability to fulfill our policy requirements, your dealership is not transferable to another location, nor is it transferable to another person without prior approval from us.
We reserve the right to suspend or cancel dealership agreements at any time without advance notice at our discretion.
Wills Wing authorized dealers are independent business entities, are not employees or agents of Wills Wing, do not directly represent Wills Wing, and are not authorized to enter into contracts, agreements, or commitments on behalf of Wills Wing. Although Wills Wing safety policies require that certain items be purchased from an authorized Wills Wing dealer, those policies do not require that an order be placed with any specific Wills Wing dealer, and any such order that is placed with a Wills Wing dealer is considered by Wills Wing to be an agreement entirely between the dealer and the customer. Although Wills Wing policies state certain expectations of authorized dealers, Wills Wing does not evaluate dealers with respect to either their ability to meet or the degree to which they customarily meet such expectations. Customers are encouraged to conduct all appropriate due diligence in evaluating any authorized Wills Wing dealer with whom they plan to do business.
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Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away.
