instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32843
the safest way

arroba_ruben - 2015/05/04 02:45:49 UTC
Spain

Hi all!!

Not all. Did you read the mission statement and site rules? They should've been big tipoffs that you've already got some serious problems.

I'm new here and in the hang gliding world. I'm taking lessons and this is fascinating BUT... I need to do it in the safest possible way.

So what are you learning in your "lessons"? If you were learning to fly via Cessna would you be feeling the need to go to a Cessna forum to find out how to REALLY do things right?

For me the safety is of paramount importance.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org's Mission Statement
- To actively promote the sport of HANG GLIDING
- To actively market and position the sport of HG in the recreational/sporting market place
- To actively defend the sport of hang gliding (sites in jeopardy, politics, competing entities...)
- To provide a friendly and positive, approachable community for people interested in the sport of HG
- To provide a friendly community for Hang Glider pilots to hang out and discuss hang gliding
- To provide online resources to potential pilots and hang glider pilots

See anything about SAFETY - which is a synonym for COMPETENCE - in there?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

gasdive,

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


You will NEVER be able to get ACTUAL safety issues addressed in a culture with an interest in PROMOTION.

I'm 38 years old, wife, 2 kids...

- Make sure neither of them is allowed to communicate with T** at K*** S******.

- Maybe you could arrange for tandem rides for them.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


Give 'em a taste of what it is you're doing. (How we comin' with that accident investigation, Mark?)

...and I don't need to break any XC record.

Faggot.

I only need to float high and feel the wind in my face

Make sure you perfect your flare timing. Ya never know when you're gonna aspire to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

I'm thinking in a SS glider forever, is enough for me.

Is it possible to do it enough safe?

Sure. We've got backup loops, don't we?

How many serious accidents occur in a modern single surface glider?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC

Here's how it really works:

- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.

- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.

- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.

The whole procedure is outlined in SOP 03-16, which you can read by logging into the USHPA website and clicking on "Policy Manual".

Thank you very much!!!!

Invest in good training and advice and always guard against complacency. You'll be fine.

mrcc - 2015/05/04 02:52:12 UTC
Auckland

Invest in good training...

From whom? We can safely assume that what he's getting now is total crap - so where's he supposed to go? Give him a specific recommendation.

...& advice

- You've already got him in good training. But he needs good advice to compensate for the crap he's being taught in his good training?
- From whom? Is there no specific name or book you can cite?

Nic Welbourn - 2015/05/04 05:03:35 UTC

What MRCC said.

Once you have your wings (once you've been properly trained), complacency is generally our biggest enemy.

Yeah, given that you're all a bunch of hypercomplacent dickheads who won't address ACTUAL PROBLEMS with guns to your heads I'd say that that generally IS "OUR" greatest enemy.

Launch...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Mike Bomstad - 2009/08/26 04:21:15 UTC

The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)

Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.

...and landing...

Wheels are for girls.

...are normally the dangerous bits...

Yeah, we tend to do great on these things when there's nothing hard close by.

...but safety normally comes down to the decisions you make (equipment checks, weather/conditions/forecasts, terrain/site, your body, your mind, other things in the air)... you are the Pilot In Command.

Until you hook up behind Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Then he is and you're a passenger.

If you have a question about something on launch (or in the air), don't launch (or land).

They say it's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there, than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

Great. So in what percentage of actual crash injuries are issues like these the least bit relevant?

THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

is our biggie. The near half century's worth of insanity of deliberately/electively configuring for minimum control authority and maximum likelihood of serious injury at the most dangerous phase of glider flight. Knocks people out of the sport temporarily and permanently all the fuckin' time. Joe Julik got killed on 2014/09/29 for no other reason than he went upright at a hundred feet - at Whitewater where the need for foot landing was and is ZERO Kelvin. And how many people are identifying that as even a contributing cause?

On 2011/06/06 a gust front hit the Chattanooga area and a whole shitload of Lookout and Henson pilots were up there wishing they were on the ground. Tim Martin was one of them and he got tossed around like a leaf before getting fatally slammed in. That didn't happen because people were saying, "Things are looking a bit iffy but I'm pretty sure I can handle them." It happened because NOBODY was aware that something was coming.

Hey, people of varying ages! Anybody remember this one?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

Willie VanRocker - 2015/01/25 17:55:26 UTC

Sad day. It looks like we have lost a fellow pilot in Victoria, Australia.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/watch/victorian-man-killed-in-hang-gliding-accident/vi-AA8x4Hf
Victorian man killed in hang-gliding accident

Jayde Vincent - 2015/01/24

Of course investigations are now underway to determine what exactly has gone wrong here today. The Weather Bureau says the conditions were fine, with only light winds in the area around the time of this accident. But, sadly, it's been a tragic end to what would've been a beautiful day to have been flying out here.

NMERider - 2015/01/25 18:16:21 UTC

The late pilot is the well-loved and respected Trevor Scott and if anyone who is linked via Facebook wishes to pay his./her respects please do so:
https://www.facebook.com/trevor.scott.967

The accident is under investigation so for love of mankind, everyone please refrain from playing CSI Hang Glider!

Well, we've been doing our bit for the love of mankind for over three months now and mankind is now so much better off for it.

Personally, I find riding a bicycle next to a road way more dangerous than flying.

- At least when somebody gets seriously fucked up or killed riding a bicycle next to a road we tend to get a full and accurate accounting by the evening news.

- I find clearing the kill zone behind a Dragonfly with some Aerotow Industry piece o' shit at the stick a thousand times scarier than riding a bicycle next to a road.

- Yeah. I'd rather be flying free or getting towed up at a mythical competent operation than riding a bicycle next to a road. But if you take Joe Hang Gliding Fatality and compare the hours he'd spent - since age eight - riding his bicycle next to a road to his final total airtime the ratio's gonna be about ten thousand to one. And that's about the ratio of Joe Hang Glider Pilot's likelihood of getting killed doing the one versus doing the other.

And compare the location of the brakes actuators to a hang glider's "release" actuator. If we happened across some tandem bicycle wreckage comparable to THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8737/16790136379_c1c17b2f86_o.png


and found the brake levers hose clamped to the seat tube would we be flying some douchebag like Mitch Shipley out to Vegas to do a five year investigation to try to find out exactly what went wrong?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32843
the safest way

Tom Lyon - 2015/05/04 07:49:18 UTC
Michigan

I had the same questions as you before I started hang gliding. What I determined is that all private aviation, including hang gliding, is dangerous because human error and poor judgment can have catastrophic consequences much more often than in most other endeavors.

Hang gliding is off-the-scale dangerous because it evolved under the control of evil off-the-scale stupid twats. Conventional aviation did damn near all of its evolution under the pressure of world wars in which the kinds evil off-the-scale stupid twats that control hang gliding would never make it up the ranks or, if they did would either get:
- riddled by enemy fire in seconds
- fragged before they got off the ground

However, I am now satisfied that if I work hard to be diligent and manage the risks that I can probably fly safely without any type of injury or accident.

You don't have a fuckin' clue how to manage risks, Tom - and never will.

I'm 54 and hope to fly for 20-30 years.

You might get away with it anyway - but you're never gonna be pilot.

Some of the things that I have done and am doing to manage the risks include seeking qualified instruction ALWAYS...

Oh. You're gonna SEEK qualified instruction ALWAYS. In other words, you've NEVER actually FOUND qualified instruction. Yeah, big surprise. If qualified instruction actually existed anywhere all the mainstream schools would all be on the same pages on EVERYTHING and unqualified instruction would be in the realm of a handful of tiny fringe operations.

...buying new (or quality used) equipment...

What are you:
- using for an aerotow release and weak link?
- towing behind - and who's driving it?

...flying a single surface glider with large wheels on it...

Like this one?:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png

...flying only when my mind and body are rested and not distressed...

Conditions which are generally over by the time you get your glider on the ramp or cart.

...flying only in excellent weather for flying...

Excellent weather for flying gliders is pretty much the polar opposite of excellent weather for flying anything else - unless sled runs really float your boat.

...trying to always focus on exercising my best possible judgment...

People have flown into trees and powerlines trying to always focus on exercising their best possible judgment. I always try to stay as unfocused as possible to keep the big picture in proper view and perspective.

...seeking advice from experienced pilots...

Which ones? Total fucking douchebags like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight?

...and feedback on how I can improve...

Stop doing all the crap you've listed so far and fucking wake up to what's going on.

...preflighting my glider and equipment carefully...

Tell us about all the dangerous shit you've found so far by preflighting my glider and equipment carefully. When you carefully preflighted your bent pin backup release within easy reach were you properly reassured that it would function under load in an emergency without resulting in the total decertification of your glider?

...avoiding any distraction during takeoff...

Ever do a hook-in check as a component of a foot launch takeoff? Or would that just be a distraction that would give you a false sense of security?

...and landing...

Takeoffs and landings ARE distractions.

...studying hang gliding and aviation in general...

When you study hang gliding and aviation in general what do you find in the way of consistency?

...reading accident reports to try to learn how to be a safer pilot myself...

What reports? What was it you learned from the Eric Aasletten, Arlan Birkett / Jeremiah Thompson / Bill Priday, Kunio Yoshimura, Terry Mason, Zack Marzec, Jon Orders / Lenami Godinez-Avila, Trevor Scott, Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead reports?

...etc.

I enjoy hang gliding very much, so all of this "work" to stay safe is not frustrating to me at all.

Obviously. You can really avoid a lot of frustration by never actually learning anything and making efforts to improve.

It's part of aviation and I enjoy learning.

How do you know? I've seen absolutely no evidence that you've ever learned shit about anything.

But these are some of the things that I think one can do to increase the chances of being a safe hang gliding pilot.

Lemme know when you think you've become one.

Good luck!

Yeah, you'll need it getting pointers from Jack Show assholes.

You have a great attitude.

And you have your head stuck solidly and permanently up your ass, Tom.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408
Highland Towing Seminar and recognition for their efforts

Ward Odenwald - 2014/08/30 01:44:02 UTC

To enhance towing safety, Highland will present a seminar that covers the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air at the beginning of the 2015 season (3rd or 4th Saturday of March). This learning event should be considered a "must attend" for all who fly at Highland or tow elsewhere!

Plus, in recognition of Highland's efforts to keep us safe and celebrate their Long-Standing support of Region 9 hang gliding, the MHGA invites everyone to a Highland PARTY on the afternoon/evening of Saturday October 18th (rain date Oct 25th). MHGA will provide the basics so if you're not accustomed to pedestrian gruel or cheap suds, please bring food/drink and then some for those who appreciate the difference.

Ward
odenwaldward@gmail.com

Jim Gibson - 2015/01/29 12:46:47 UTC

Does anyone know whether or not the aero-towing seminar at Highland Aerosports is officially happening? I have sent an e-mail to Highland but have not received a response as yet. I am aware that they are not open for business until mid-March so I thought I would check here with the CHGPA to see if anyone has any updated information.
Thx Much ..::JG[

Ward Odenwald - 2015/01/29 17:14:45 UTC

If all goes according to plan, Highland's towing seminar will be held on the third or forth weekend of March (weather depending). Adam or Sunny will most likely post details when they announce their opening day.[

Jim Gibson - 2015/02/01 17:02:55 UTC

Greetings Ward,
Thank you for your response. I'll keep an eye on the Highland website for an update.

Well lessee. We're now past the third and fourth Saturdays of March, all four Saturdays of April, and one of the five Saturdays of May. And I was SO looking forward to learning from the AT operation that taught Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney everything he knows all about the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air. It was already a bit too late for Jim's good friend Zack Marzec but I thought there might still be some hope for the rest of us muppets. Think they're just waiting for John Claytor to recover enough to do a fifteen minute Q&A session?

How come - if they found they didn't have the time and resources to hold this intensive science and art seminar - they don't just publish a Higher Education installment in the magazine? I was really enjoying those. Is part of the problem that they really a don't want this "must attend" educational opportunity to benefit anyone who tows elsewhere?

I was REALLY looking forward to what they were gonna say about weak links. All you CHGA pieces o' shit remember THIS:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

--LOCKED--

thread? (Kinda funny the way none of these flight parks has mentioned anything about weak link strength or purpose the past couple years, isn't it? Fuck, a month shy of three years ago we had a fourteen page magazine article on the topic. Go figure.)

Or maybe they realized that a seminar, discussion, article about the science and art of staying on tow to enhance towing safety would be a fundamental oxymoron since towing safety is fundamentally all about...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC

Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.

Take if from the other angle... if it were about safety... if you are truly concerned about your safety... why are you towing? Why are the people that are arguing about weaklinks towing?
The answer of course is that it's not actually about "safety".

People get pissed off not because the weaklink breaking made their lives scary... it made it a pain in the ass. They missed the thermal. They had to relight. Etc.
I'm not saying that these are invalid feelings.
I'm saying that they're not about safety.

...NOT BEING ON TOW.

Fuck all you sonsabitches. Rot in hell.

P.S. A seminar or article like this will NEVER happen ANYWHERE EVER AGAIN. Ditto for posts from commercial interests...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

Even Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney finally wised up enough to keep his stupid fucking mouth shut.

These snake oil salesmen have finally learned, undoubtedly with a bit o' help from u$hPa (Tim Herr), that anything they say will either be laughable bullshit or a flat contradiction of something they've said before and/or an Industry sacrosanct tenet - and they'll get their heads blown off within seconds. And there's no question whatsoever that Kite Strings can take credit for advancing this disintegration by a factor of about five years.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32843
the safest way

Walt Conklin - 2015/05/04 13:43:14 UTC

You're safer in the air, than in your car. If you worry about it too much, then maybe this isn't for you.

Yeah Ruben. This sport ain't for little faggotty guys always worried about SAFETY stuff. It's for really cool dudes who ain't scared of nuthin'...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


If I were you, Walt, I'd avoid the business of making predictions about who's good pilot material and who ain't. Rational fears are most of your best and most important friends in this game.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Swift - 2013/02/27 14:22:49 UTC

Zack wasn't "sitting on the couch" when a cheap piece of string made the decision to dump him at the worst possible time.

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Bummer dude, I NEVER get tired of telling you how your friend died. And if not all us armchair experts then who?

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

Hg'ers? Just a second ago they were armchair experts. But now they're people who actually fly hang gliders and experience what's going on at the BACK end of the string? Wasn't your FRIEND - the one who died - an hg'er? If he'd survived well and long enough to utter a few words do you think they would've been in praise of the standard aerotow weak link for increasing the safety of the towing operation?

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

We can't really...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218
rules

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC

Yeesh. Tad is right on one count. I DO wish I had never posted. I was just so happy about getting my tandem rating and being able to share my love of flying with the general public.

Some pilots recently wrote me and told me that Tad was trying get my ratings and Dustin's revoked because of my post. They said he was trying to stir up support on another forum for this cause (because I have not filed an incident report).

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 22:34:14 UTC

The arrogance of this makes me sick. You've got to be kidding me.
Tad, you're on notice.
This is normal training. Just because you don't agree with it does not give you any right.
Trying to tear down two exceptional pilots in the name of your petty crusade... vile. Just vile.
We don't need it.

...impugn the qualifications, take, perspective of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/25 04:12:33 UTC

An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

...Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden, can we?

So is there any dispute that Zack was climbing with lotsa airspeed up until the instant his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation and totally whipstalled the instant after? One person? Anywhere?

And then we've got:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25656
The young girl who died hang gliding solo

Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC

ND's onto it.

No one ever wants to wait for the accident investigation... they want to know "NOW DAMNIT!" and there's always a lot of self-serving arguments surrounding it.

And it's always the same.
The same damn arguments get drug up every time. And they're all just as pointless every time.

We have a system in place.
It works.
Let it work.

Our procedures are well established at this point in time and there are no gaping hidden holes that need to be addressed immediately.

RR asked what the status was.
ND's provided the answer (thank you).

Please take a deep breath. And wait.
Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)

The sky is not falling.

We have a system in place, this was an accident involving a fatality, and accident investigations involving fatalities take YEARS. (Yes, YEARS, I'm not kidding.)

So how come after just twenty-five days after impact, about seven percent of just ONE year, Billo and you, two front end douchebags who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us uppity hg'ers the rope, are so very obviously eager to pronounce this one, with an excellent detailed account from the tug driver (and a handful of eyewitnesses Quest has declined to identify and post statements from), the first (and last) totally unsolvable mystery in the entire history of hang gliding fatalities?

If Mitch Shipley had been investigating this one we'd be 64 percent of what he'd done so far - with not one scrap of information delivered and no end in sight.

Out in REAL aviation we've got Amelia Earhart and Frederick Noonan disappearing in the middle of the Pacific close to eighty-eight years ago and for that entire period people have been investigating, searching, speculating all they feel like, possibly making progress. What are your "THOUGHTS" on this discrepancy?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32865
Does anyone on here teach at LMFP?

Robert Kesselring - 2015/05/10 15:26:05 UTC
West Virginia

Does anyone on here teach at LMFP?

I dunno...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

What do you think?

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

I'm interested to see which of the answers to my (or others) questions are coming from the people I'll be learning from this summer.

No fuckin' brainer. The really good ones are all coming from the instructors and since they're all top notch professionals they're all gonna be on the same pages with everything - regardless of the school or operation.

Al Dicken - 2015/05/10 16:02:28 UTC
British Columbia

I think most instructors stay away from forums due to the high level of toxicity.

What toxicity? You've got really excellent moderators...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10
Welcome to, and policies of, the Oz Report discussion group

Davis Straub - 2003/03/04 02:07:45 UTC

I encourage quality posts, posts that actually help the reader and would be of interest to the readers. I discourage drivel, nonsense and lazy, just hanging around, here-I-am-with-nothing-really-much-to say posts. There are other sites that encourage such behavior, this is not one of them.

The Oz Report forum is not a campfire. It is not a place to hang out with your bud and have a beer while slurring your words. It is a serious forum for pilots who wish to write cogently and engage the intellect of others. It is not for everyone, and not everyone has something useful to contribute.

...to keep the discussions civil and rational and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...make sure the toxic assholes are out.

seb - 2015/05/10 17:39:13 UTC
Alabama

I can guess the time spent is not going to be on the internet but either flying or chillin in the lz where everyone hangs out there.

Yeah, that's just so much more important than getting out on the web and discussing why a Keavy Nenninger, Zack Marzec, Mark Knight, Trevor Scott, Kelly Harrison got killed.

The reason none of these motherfuckers get on the internet is 'cause they're all incompetent douchebags with brains the sizes of walnuts who know that if they're stupid enough to put anything down in print they're gonna get their balls ripped off and handed to them within five minutes or so. Even Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was smart enough to figure that out eventually after many years of setting himself up.

Go to his hole in the ground.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

While you're there, ask him what we've been using for a standard aerotow weak link since 2013 and why it went way the fuck in the opposite direction from what he was advising right after his asshole buddy bought it. Or, failing that, maybe you can get and post a statement from Lockout. Or ask them about it when you're down there this summer and tell us all what their response is.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42445
split the USHPA in two

Doug Doerfler - 2015/05/13 15:08:00 UTC

In general I do not see any issue HG versus PG.
Sure there are isolated issues but for the most part there is no problem.

I see a huge issue of pleasure fliers versus commercial operations...this is were USHPA needs to make changes.

Commercial operations are fine on private land but are a disaster to pleasure flying on public land.

Many of the flying sites around SF Bay area are city/county/state/federal parks that do not allow commercial operations.

Yet at Torrey control is handed to a money grab, carnival ride setup.

We all know there is a large number of tandem pilots both HG and PG that accept money knowing the passenger has no interest in learning and its simply a joy ride.

USHPA and FAA need to do something about this sham.

Fuckin' BULL'S-EYE.

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/05/15 04:38:09 UTC

For all of Joe's pontificating about "PDMC" and similar nonsense, it's irrelevant to our insurance rates. Insurance costs are a function of damage done to third parties, and the cost of defense of claims against fellow pilots made by pilots who violate our waiver and sue after they've promised not to do so.

You mean like the way every aerotow operation in USHGA history has violated the crap out of the agreement USHGA made with the FAA in order to obtain the exemption?

When I look at our claims history, I see small stuff; dented cars, the occasional roof, and so on.

What do you see when you look at our u$hPa accident history? Right, never mind, we stopped having one twenty years ago.

Medium big stuff is power lines that start fires, and the really big claims relate to deaths and injuries. The largest in recent times was the HG that took out a spectator in Chelan...

Yeah Mark...

02-00007

05-00123

20-00727


A fuckin' clueless, cud chewing, wuffo SPECTATOR.

...and that was a primary driver of our insurance rate increase. There were a couple of other HG-related claims that cost significant money for defense in the two years previous to that, and a PG that went into the power lines at Pacifica and caused some electrical damage.

I'm not going to get into exhaustive detail on claims, but an assumption that PG related insurance claims are a big problem is just nonsense. It's not the wing, it's the pilots. By that, I mean that the risk is associated with flying, regardless of wing type, and the amount and kind of flying that's being done. Rather than get our knickers in a twist about splitting our already-meager numbers into smaller segments, we need to pull together and focus on flying safely and making conservative decisions to minimize the risk of accidents.

What accidents? We had a Hang Five tandem instructor slam in fatally along with his eleven year old "student" seven weeks ago today and we haven't heard ONE SINGLE WORD from u$hPa on what - if anything - went or was wrong.

Among other things, that means challenging our fellow pilots when they do something risky, even if they get away with it that time.

How do we know what's risky and what isn't when we have ZERO crash data? For decades we were told that flying with a Tad-O-Link was about the only really dangerous thing you could do behind a tug and virtual certain death in the course of a season. And gliders were crashing and people were getting mangled and killed left and right. And then two years ago everybody and his dog started using Tad-O-Links and we haven't heard of a single aerotow crash since. How do you explain that?

It means supporting and promoting a culture that emphasizes safety over daring.

Oh. So it's DARING that's causing all these out of control situations and crashes. And here I was thinking it was...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...mandatory safe landing practice.

It means applauding pilots for making good decisions...

'Specially...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...TUG pilots - the guys who really know what's what and who's who and have our best interests genuinely at heart.

...not for getting away with something dangerous.

Fuck you, Mark. Flying under u$hPa control and influence is getting away with something insanely dangerous.

So the primary driver of our insurance rate increase was a Good Samaritan who got totally demolished doing exactly what any Hang Five would've done in that situation in an effort to keep a dust deviled hang glider from being ripped out of control and maybe killing somebody nearby or coming down on some powerlines. Tell us just how that one fits into your narrative.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42445
split the USHPA in two

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/05/15 16:03:56 UTC

Instructor insurance is "professional liability" coverage, to insure instructors against the risk of being sued by a student who is injured while they're being taught. It does not cover landowners or pilots generally, just individual instructors for their personal liability. It also does not cover schools, premises or employees. If an instructor employs others or has a storefront, they need a regular commercial policy. For the guy who holds a day job, teaches on weekends and is worried about losing his retirement savings and his house if a student gets hurt, this coverage is a big stress reliever. Because it's group coverage it's fairly cheap...by comparison, individual policies start around $5000/year and go up from there.

To your point, there is nothing structurally about USHPA and its mix of pilots and wings which inherently drives our insurance premiums up. If you were to theoretically split USHPA into two separate organizations based on wing type, the practical result is that both would present less of an attraction to a prospective insurer due to smaller numbers. Both would pay higher incremental premiums for separate policies on their smaller member base. I believe those premiums would be the same or very similar, since there's no actuarial data to support an assumption that one or the other offers more of a third party risk.

Joe says he doesn't have a spare million laying around, so the reality is that if he crashes into something expensive, he's not going to have the money to fix the damage he did. No sensible landowner would let him fly on their property knowing that they could be stuck with the bill.

I've had sensible landowners let me fly on their property with zero interest in my rating or insurance because a sensible person understands that the risk of me doing something expensive to someone or something on his property is fuckin' dwarfed compared to normal shit that happens in everyday life.

That's why our insurance is a key to getting access to flying sites.

I thought it was just about being determined not to be a danger to people of varying ages.

Joe thinks he's going to use his superior skills to avoid ever having that expensive accident, and maybe he's right.

How superior do our skills need to be to not do anything expensive to something that doesn't belong to us? What percentage of our flyers are falling short?

Or maybe, like EVERY OTHER PILOT, he gets a surprise one day that his skills don't save him from.

Yeah. EVERY OTHER PILOT crashes into something expensive for which u$hPa insurance has to fork out.

I really doubt that pilots take risks in flight based on whether they have liability insurance.

Why not? For decades they've been willing to tie themselves to towlines knowing perfectly well they will have zero realistic chances of getting off if anything goes wrong down low.

Their thought, as they get turned by a gust into a crowd of orphaned schoolchildren and nuns in wheelchairs, is probably not "Oh boy, lucky for me I have liability insurance! I'll just go ahead and crash into the crowd!" Accidents do happen despite our best efforts to avoid them, and it is foolish and naive to think otherwise.

How would you know? Tell us all about your best efforts to avoid accidents.

If there was a way to dramatically reduce our insurance premiums and improve our risk profile, we'd already be doing it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24 21:19:29 UTC

A couple things to chew on here...

There isn't one sure-fire answer.
If there was, we'd all be doing it already.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

If Joe's assumption was correct (it's not, but let's run with it) and PG pilots posed a disproportionate risk of third party damage, don't you think we'd have modified our SOPs and training to reduce that risk?

Tell me what you've done to implement the hook-in check regulation that went onto the books 34 years ago this month.

We tune our SOPs regularly to account for new knowledge and to adapt to changes in aircraft design and performance.

Like what? We've been flying cleaner and more expensive Comets since 1979.

We add restrictions (no aerobatics with tandem students...

Tell me about the crashes you've had from aerobatics with tandem students. I can name you eight fatalities resulting from front end weak link successes. Have you done anything about any of those?

...no BASE jumping from gliders at insured sites...

- You CAN'T *BASE* (Building Antenna Span Earth) from a glider. You can just skydive.
- Name one person scratched as a consequence of a parachute jump from a tandem.

...etc)

Naw. Tell us what the fuckin' et ceteras are and the data you use to identify them.

...based on risks we observe in the field.

- Who the fuck is "WE"?

- You just go around to different fields observing risks? Guess you'd have to since you've totally gutted the accident reporting system.

- Do you ever base anything on actual crash data? Or do you just declare any cool stuff you see people doing risky and therefore off limits? (Just kidding.)

The fact is that the risk profiles for HG and PG are very similar, although the specifics of the accidents are different.

Where can we muppets go to see this mythical accident database?

As we see ways to reduce risk, we modify our rules accordingly.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

That's not what I heard. This Mark G. Forbes guy is pretty much telling us flat out that you'll never do ANYTHING to address an ACTUAL issue so it's pretty fucking obvious that any changes to the SOPs will address only totally fake ones.

Lying motherfucker.

[miguel]

Like what? We've been flying cleaner and more expensive Comets since 1979.

and the truth!
I still have my Comet.
Good one!

[Tad Eareckson]

Gave mine to local instructor John Middleton after I got my HPAT 158 from Dennis Pagen. Wanted it to get used for training and stay in the air - but have zero doubt that he just immediately cut it up for the scrap value.