Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC
You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.
These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
Weak links. It is helpful for the pilot to be able to supply their own weak link in case there is a problem of a too strong weak link else where in the system. (Good pilots use very light or weak weak links as high loads should not occur with a good tow. Beginners might be tempted to use a heavy weak link after multiple weak link failures. This is extremely dangerous and it is highly recommended that you have your towing videoed and then correct the pilot error and do NOT change the weak link for a stronger one.)
The idea is that the instructor controls the situation, and gently ends the flight anytime the student is headed for trouble, and does so before the trouble can become in any way serious or threatening to the student's safety. The instructor should not suddenly chop the throttle, but only gently reduce power to smoothly reduce line tension.
Zack C being saved from a deadly lockout at seven hundred feet by a virgin standard aerotow weak link, the last of his career. 2010/11/27 15:30 EST - Lockout Mountain Flight Park.
Zack Marzec's glider after being saved from a deadly over-the-top lockout by a standard aerotow weak link at Quest, last of his career - and life. 2013/02/02 15:20 EST.
Moyes Xtralite
- 075 pounds
- 180 pounds - Zack M's hook-in weight
- 255 pounds - Zack M's flying weight
- ??? pounds - max hook-in weight
- ??? pounds - max certified operating weight
- 260 pounds - standard aerotow weak link towline tension limit - one point
- 102 percent of flying weight
- ??? percent of max certified operating weight
- 080 percent of max certified operating weight - min legal
- ??? pounds - min legal towline tension
- 200 percent of max certified operating weight - max legal
- ??? pounds - towline tension - max legal
- ??? percent of max legal
Can't fill in all the blanks because we don't know exactly what the glider was can't pull the specs from the manual. (I'd kill for that information.) Appreciable higher Gs for Zack M but a glider majorly decertified as a consequence of towing it one point...
...has ANY IDEA what went wrong or how to fix the main problem. So here's a little game that's fun to play / informal survey that's fun to take with people who haven't had their brains rotted out by the sport...
Find a bored looking person at a doctor's waiting room or sumpin'.
at 0:31 so he can see / you can explain the glider end hook-up components: towline, tow ring, one point bridle, shoulder mounted releases. But make no mention of the focal point of the safe towing system.
Then tell him that Zack's gonna be dead the day after he uploads the video and your mark's mission, should he decide to accept, is to figure out why.
Tell him that:
- it was an issue with the glider end towing assembly that he can see in this photo:
(opening the URL in a new window gets you max resolution)
- the problem occurred at around 150 feet
- if necessary: he crashed (no, he wasn't strangled)
- most jerks off the street figure it out fairly quickly, you don't need to know shit about hang gliding and, in fact, you have a great advantage if you don't
So now - most of the time - he's Sherlock Fucking Holmes solving a murder mystery and you've gotten him.
About half the time, maybe a bit more, he'll start with "something broke" and start focusing on the tow ring. Then you tell him yeah, but what in the system looks most likely to break? The rest of the time the mark will go hang glider on ya and start with "stuck on tow". Then you cut him off by telling him that yeah, that's one good way to get killed but there's another.
Sometimes people will see the Rooney Link and have a "Holy Shit!" reaction - but more often they'll block it out 'cause it's obviously something that was deliberately installed.
Goddam sloppy Rooney Link with all the excess/wasted material both in the loop(s) and on the free ends:
The free ends are totally fuzzed, that's what looks wrong - 'cause it IS wrong, in and of itself on top of the critical problem with it. And that's what people INVARIABLY lock on to. Total red herring. Then I have to say not a bad guess but keep looking - you're almost there.
What's it accomplish? I dunno, but it's something of a morale boost to get away from the insanity and into an environment in which common sense isn't a critically endangered species.
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
in which they "worked" in light morning air with the gliders perfectly in position and tracking; the low level lockout deaths of Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, and Lois Preston in which they didn't "work"; and the whipstall death of pro toad Tandem Aerotow Instructor Zack Marzec in which it "worked", as totally expected by Mark...
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
...Frutiger, Zack's tug driver and a Tandem Aerotow Instructor himself, and overrode the decisions of two highly experienced professional tow pilots to continue the tow.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
which is reasonably well contradicted even by your good friend...
Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC
I think that I know the one that is being referred to.
The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.
...Davis.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
Oh! We WILL lose that numbers game at some point. That's just inevitable - like your unhooked tandem launch on 2006/02/21.
- So can you site some relevant incidents? How come there were ZERO responses in which people said, "Boy are you right, Jim. Two years ago I had just lifted off the cart and suffered a catastrophic skill failure. Thank GOD I had a standard aerotow weak link to kick in and save my ass!"?
- Won't we then also be seeing deaths as consequences of catastrophic skills failures at other critical stages of flight? Slope, ramp, cliff launches and landing approaches where Rooney Links can't help us? Isn't it pretty much inevitable that we'll all die because of catastrophic skills failures if we stay in the sport for more than a year or two - tops?
- Can you refer us to some videos of catastrophic skills failures?
- In landing don't most catastrophic skill failures occur when people...
John Simon - 2009/01
Annapolis, Maryland
I decided to go upright. This is where things started going really bad really fast.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...put their hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height instead of just landing on their bellies?
- In towing don't a lot of catastrophic skill failures occur during lockouts when people...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow
5. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...under the supervision of a Tandem Aerotow Instructor like Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Mark Frutiger, or Zack Marzec because it's a pretty dangerous situation, right? Otherwise they wouldn't specify that it occur ONLY:
- under the supervision and at the initiation of a Tandem Aerotow Instructor
- at safe (parachute) altitude
- in smooth air
right?
In fact it's OBVIOUSLY a much more demanding skill than blowing a release in a low level lockout situation because there's no requirement that the candidate demonstrate a release other than at normal release altitude when everything's gone according to the flight plan.
So how come you're so fucking certain that our emergency release skills will catastrophically fail us in the course of the low level lockout in which all of us will inevitably find ourselves while we're all gonna be totally solid throughout the course of our flying careers on our Rooney Link pop recovery skills? Isn't it pretty fucking obvious that if our Rooney Link pop recovery skills aren't very finely honed and executed that we can get killed just as dead as we could in a low level lockout?
Didn't the student at Lookout who was fucked over by the ground crew in the incident that Matt never reported...
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly.
Well yeah, Paul. But you train aerotow pilots how to handle Bobby Link pops...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow
5. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...under a set of very narrow, controlled, wide safety margin conditions. And...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
Cragin Shelton - 2001/08/08
NEVER TRUST A WEAK LINK!
Expect two things from your weak link:
(1) It will break unexpectedly at the most inopportune time, with no warning adn no indicaiton of a flight problem.
(2) It will hold strong and fast whenever you move into a lockout.
...that's not even CLOSE to the REAL WORLD circumstances in which they're breaking. You should really know that...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
...such exercises cannot POSSIBLY include all the factors and variability that exist in the big, real world - and are, in fact, very deliberately, carefully, rigidly EXCLUDING them.
Zack Marzec wasn't at a safe altitude in smooth air with another Tandem Aerotow Instructor smacking the lever with the glider trim and centered in the middle of the Cone of Safety when his Bobby Link blew. He was climbing hard in a near stall situation in one of the larger...
The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.
...and more powerful thermals that Zack's driver has encountered. And he was using a pro toad bridle that left him with shit ability to pull in...
...even just coming off the cart. And isn't ALL of your Bobby Link training on gliders in two point muppet mode?
Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
Well then isn't that what you should be training for, Paul? The purpose of the weak link is to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD, especially in the rather extreme conditions and circumstances in which Zack found himself, so shouldn't you be doing training under such conditions and circumstances? Low altitude, strong thermal blasts, glider climbing hard in a near stall situation, pro toad bridle, bar stuffed?
If you couldn't find the proper conditions often enough you could do simulations. Get the tug going real fast, have the pro toad shove the bar out fairly abruptly?
You could run a camera too. There seem to be a lot of unresolved issues about the fatality and maybe some careful frame by frame video analyses from those simulations could reveal the critical issues and bring things out of the realm of pure speculation.
You could get Lauren - the Weak Link of Quest Air - to do a lot of these training flights.
- She seems to have a hard time...
Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14
This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).
...reacting to just ORDINARY Bobby Link pops to reduce them to inconvenience level.
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever.
...become greater than desirable as a consequence of whatever and IMMEDIATELY return to the MOST desirable - ZERO.
- It would be a first class demonstration of a couple of hang glider pilots who don't get off tow...
This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...when they get too far out of whack being saved.
I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear).
JESUS Lauren! Bobby Link pop recovery is a SKILL - just like...
very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.
came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.
bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.
turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.
am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.
anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.
...foot landing. You need to PRACTICE it - CONSTANTLY! You need to PERFECT it. What are you gonna do if you get in a Zack Marzec situation and your skills are rusty?
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
...are at a serious and unfair safety disadvantage because you're flying at lower Gs and you can get into more trouble than most of us can. Look what happened to Zack ferchrisake. Ballast up. Don't change them whenever they show any signs of wear. Use them until they're totally fuzzed and keep using them until they blow. Don't use fresh ones - use other people's discards. If you're ever at some wack operation that insists on fresh Bobby Links then put one on and swap it out when nobody's looking.
They are a good thing to have, though!!
Not if they don't break when they're supposed to and not if you're not maintaining the skills you need to react properly - and you seem to be doing everything you can to set yourself up for failure.
A hand grenade can be a very good thing to have in many circumstances. But if you're not pulling the pin and tossing one on a regular basis having a hand grenade can sometimes be worse...
Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.
The #1 thing I can do for you just off the ground is GIVE YOU THE ROPE.
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope. Any work I do is to save the tow and get you back in line... not to save you. I do this only when I think it's safe to do so. When I give you the rope, I've determined that continuing the tow is putting either you or me (or both) in jeopardy and I'm trying to save you (or me).
...just off the ground you could fix anything going on back there by giving us the rope. Guess you were lying. Guess you suck just as much as we do. Your best hope for survival is the same as ours. Just hold on as best you can and hope that the:
- single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the solo glider; or
- Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector when there's a tandem with a double loop
blows before the locked out glider kills its passenger(s) and lethally compromises tug control.
So...
- Can you cite any incidents in which such a scenario has played out? Shit happened too fast for the tug to blow the release and it survived only because the Greenspot broke when it was supposed to and when you professional pilots worked out that it would?
--- front end professional pilots and your gear are supposed to be invincible?
--- can't actually cite a single instance of the failure of the mechanical thing that Bobby designed and built into his tug such that it could be actuated instantly without control compromise?
But you trust Zack to land, right? And that's...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...such an insanely difficult aspect of our sport that...
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
...you had to write most of a twenty page Davis Show thread to tell us how to do it properly. But even then...
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...it remains by far the procedure most likely to result in career ending injury. Or is the deal that you're only concerned about the safety of your muppet while he's on tow? If the line goes slack a tenth of a second prior to impact then whatever consequences result are not your problem because at that point he became Pilot In Command and screwed the pooch. He was fine as long as YOU were Pilot In Command.
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Just like dumping a skydiver out of your plane at a hundred feet.
Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.
Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.
Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
...handle any inconvenience a Rooney Link is capable of dishing out - and for anyone who can't...
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
Tough fucking shit.
And even though there's a lot of sentiment out there that your tandem aerotow instructor / professional pilot buddy Zack Marzec...
If you had been properly trained on how to tow, you would know that it shouldn't be a big deal when a weak link breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if you are doing things right. Maybe you should get some better training instead of just parroting Tad. When you are under tow you should be ready for any unusual event and be ready to deal with it. It's called being a pilot instead of just being a passenger along for the ride.
Using someone else's tragedy to further your agenda is pathetic.
...wasn't quite up to snuff in that department.
But anyway... It's all you flight park professional pilot dickheads signing all the AT ratings, right? And here's some of what it says one needs to know and be able to do to qualify:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow
The aerotow skill is a demonstration of the pilot's ability to launch and tow successfully and safely behind a flying tow vehicle. This special skill is available to Novice and above rated pilots (H-2-H-5), and may be demonstrated through "dolly" launch or other launch procedures. Pilots participating in aerotowing are required to have the aerotow special skill or be under the supervision of an Aerotow Official. In order to receive the special skill, a pilot must pass the AT written exam and demonstrate the following to an Aerotow Official:
02. Must demonstrate complete understanding of both normal and emergency procedures, including checklists for normal procedures, indications of possible impending emergencies and how to properly execute emergency procedures.
So what you're saying is that all you flight park professional pilot dickheads are signing all the AT ratings for critically unqualified students and applicants, right?
This is a Two level Special Skill and Zack C's a Four with the following signoffs:
and a lot of aero and truck towing under his belt. USHGA says he's qualified to do damn near anything in this sport 'cept for selling tandem rides (and that's an issue YOU should really shut the fuck up about), he's armed to the teeth with some of the best tow equipment...
Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
I'll put money that he's using that new orange stuff like what they've got up at Morningside.
...to use the new orange stuff Morningside decided they were happy with because he's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
...Davis doesn't trust Davis to release when he needs to and - after much thought and consideration - decided he wasn't happy with the two hundred pound weak link Morningside decided that they were happy with.
So if somebody who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who as well as Davis has doesn't trust himself to release when he needs to then who does? Why should ANYBODY be permitted to fly with anything heavier than a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot? And...
...why would you consider towing anyone with anything heavier?
The accepted standards and practices changed.
Because the accepted standards and practices changed? Does that mean you had to change the practices and standards that YOU accept? The FAA regulations state that the front end weak link has to be heavier than the back end weak link and the back end weak link has to be heavier than eighty percent of the max certified operating weight of the glider. You completely violate the crap out of those standards - which USHGA, the Industry, the professional pilots, and the weekend warrior muppets towed by the professional pilots happily accepted a decade ago without a single whimper of protest or suggestion of modification - every time you pull a tandem. So why would you go with the flow just because Morningside decided they were happy with a less inconvenient and more dangerous weak link?
So ALL of us - Davis included - are too stupid and incompetent to legitimately qualify for the AeroTow rating (but not the Hang 3-4-5; Flat Slope, High Altitude, Cliff, Assisted Windy Cliff, Platform Launch; Turbulence; Restricted Landing Field; XC ratings - nobody ever talks about systemic incompetence in any other specialization) so we've all gotta use Rooney Links as compensators for our stupidity and incompetence. Our ability to function consistently as PILOTS in this critical phase of flight WILL...
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
...we're just rolling dice. If we pull a jack or higher out of this deck stacked with extra jacks, queens, kings, and aces we're gonna be just fine. If not we're gonna end up just as dead as Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, Lois Preston.
And, of course, there's just no fuckin' way pulling an ace can be a BAD thing in any other situation. An INCONVENIENCE at worst...
...and we're all trained and expected to be able to deal with THAT contingency and - unlike the deal with effecting the easy reach to the release in a timely manner - there's no question that the skill of the pilot will fail us.
Paul Hurless says if we'd been properly trained on how to tow we'd know that it shouldn't be a big deal when a weak link breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if we're doing things right. So we SHOULD. It's just releasing in a low level lockout that we SHOULDN'T be able to do after proper training - for reasons nobody ever seems to explain or address. In that case it's OK to be just a passenger along for the ride and hoping a good card comes up.
Basically spectacular out at Highland Saturday. Tons of pilots, great weather... eagles, vast cumies, tandems, some beer and lots of familiar faces. Great to see everyone after a slow winter (for me anyway).
I arrived to fifteen gliders or so already set up and hustled to get going. The guys were towing quickly and no significant waits developed. Tom "Lone Wolf" McGowan launched and took off East for a triangle. Charlie, Jim, and myself set up a smaller one to the north to accommodate Charlie's schedule and the fact I hadn't flown in a while, the more the merrier was our mantra.
After a weak link break for landing practice, I pinned off on my second tow at 1800 or so and climbed at over 800 fpm to 5000 feet. Later, Charlie got near 8000 and I got 7000 or so, climbs were consistently 500-700 fpm and some at 800 on my averager. Jim saw 1000 on his, and the instantaneous lift was outrageous. But the climbs were in general very consistent and fairly wide and smooth. There were a few that were just mean and unwelcoming, and I had to run away from two of them (I don't very often run from lift), but soon found more friendly climbs. Very, very cold at 7000... (well, 6960). Somehow, with all the lift and cumies and eagles, I managed to get down to 600, unzipped and started scratching my head a bit, wondering how this could be (again). Some vultures saved me, as I saw at least fifteen of them all circling at 200 or lower. Hmm, odd but no other options. I head there and punch a tight bullet at 500 then 600 then 700 fpm and have to crank it up to stay there. By 2500 it turns nasty and I have to run away, but there is plenty of lift under this cloud and I get a more friendly 500 and happily settle in. I couldn't hack temps above 6000 as my gloves aren't up to it. Still, Charlie and I made the triangle and Jim on his new-to-him glider made an out and back out of the flight.
Last temp I saw was 35 at 5900, and Kirk said he saw 29 at 6500 later. Must have been 20 or so at 8000 with the strong lapse rate. WE all had beers in the LZ and enjoyed a beautiful afternoon. I was in the air for 1:24 but could have flown much longer. As I hadn't flown in a while and my neck was getting sore, I succumbed to beer suck and landed. 24 mile triangle in 8-16mph west winds. Tom really crushed it as usual fighting the winds on his long leg back from the East. Still I'm happy for my first flights of the year. Next time we go big.
I arrived to fifteen gliders or so already set up and hustled to get going.
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Ya just NEVER know how many opportunities you're gonna get to make it to workable altitude during the soaring window on days like these, do ya John?
The guys were towing quickly and no significant waits developed.
The guys IN FRONT of you anyway.
Great to see everyone after a slow winter (for me anyway).
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
He doesn't fly anymore 'cause he has nowhere TO fly. That obnoxious blowhard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit because his theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous...
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
...decided he was happier with a weak link up into the legal range before Morningside did and the accepted standards changed and wanted the tugs to have legal range weak links on their end too so there would be no possibility of him...
What I did not consider (or even look for) was the dangerous fact that I was now dragging a rather long rope that was looped over my control bar! The sensation of the towline tension release, when Jim cut me lose, was identical to that felt when a weak-link breaks so my first and only thought was that the separation was due to a snapped weak-link. If the towline had snagged on anything during the short flight - Yikes!!
To avoid this nightmare scenario...
...ending up in the dangerous nightmare scenario in which Ward Odenwald found himself sixteen days ago. So FUCK HIM.
After a weak link break for landing practice...
Aren't you gonna tell us about the deadly lockout from which it saved you and why you were too much of a muppet to beat it with your bent pin pro toad release you had within easy reach?
Were you able to not fly into the taxiway sign this time?
What was the real cost of your "landing practice" cycle, John? Launch assistant; Dragonfly takeoff, climb, landing, reset; hooking you up a second time; cart retrieval; everybody waiting in line to exploit an epic day after driving an hour or two to get there and setting up and before having to break down and drive an hour or two back?
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.
Good thing there's no COST associated with a Dragonfly tow launch the way there is in sailplane towing.
...I pinned off on my second tow at 1800 or so...
All by yourself. Wow! So your fishing line let YOU play Pilot In Command that time. How magnanimous. And you must be very proud.
Later, Charlie got near 8000 and I got 7000 or so, climbs were consistently 500-700 fpm and some at 800 on my averager. Jim saw 1000 on his, and the instantaneous lift was outrageous...
Sounds like a really amazing day. What wonderful experiences everyone must've had!
Last temp I saw was 35 at 5900, and Kirk said he saw 29 at 6500 later.
My tows have been pretty consistent and so far my weak links have seemed to go at times that weren't the result of being out of position... the weak link had just been worn down and finally snapped. My question is... when should you replace a weak link, if at all? It seems silly to just let the weak link eventually snap due to wear, considering the time spent and cost involved for those towing who waste a takeoff. Do any of you try to replace your weak link on a regular basis?
Kirk? I guess neither he nor anyone else is worried about the time spent and cost involved for those towing - and the people in line after assholes like you who get to cut back into the front - who waste a takeoffs when their Ridgely Links increase the safety of the towing operation when their gliders are...
33-030202
...lined up perfectly with the tug and nothing's going on.
WE all had beers in the LZ and enjoyed a beautiful afternoon.
Fuck all of you useless goddam douchebags - and the horses you rode in on.
Thanks for your advice, Red. I think I may have misspoken. I just meant that regardless of how much training one has on a simulator, studying written books, watching videos, talking to instructors, or even simulating an emergency (e.g. a rope break). The first time the event happens "for real" is distressing. It is for me, anyway, and I like to both think about, and practice my response, ahead of time.
Bullshit, Tom.
- How can the focal point of a safe towing system kicking in be considered an "EMERGENCY"? It's the precise opposite of an emergency. It was an emergency when you were climbing out ON tow. The instant the rope broke and dumped you into a stall is when the emergency situation ended and things suddenly got dramatically safer. Or are you trying to make this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow?
...it happens "for real" (as opposed to at near release altitude in smooth air) be DISTRESSING? At worst it's an inconvenience - and who ever heard of anyone being distressed by an inconvenience?
- Or maybe the problem is that the rope you're using is too heavy...
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
...and isn't breaking soon enough. Try using a lighter one or abrading the one you're using now.
C'mon Red. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney ain't around on The Jack Show no more. Pick up the slack and try help this poor delusional muppet.
