landing

[<BS>]

Was she being shunned for landing on wheels?

[Tad Eareckson]

Nah. She was being ostracized for having twice as many X chromosomes as they did.
Is this a great sport or what.

[Tad Eareckson]

High Rock Accident Report
chga@mail.folkriver.com

Matthew Graham - 2004/05/31 14:17:04 UTC

Accident Report- High Rock, May 29, 2004, approx 4:30pm.

Landing in 3-4' high tall grass is challenging enough. Landing in tall grass with a tail wind, that's a tricky one. Landing in tall grass with a tail wind going downhill, well, there's really no good possible outcome. And there wasn't.

Karen had been working a thermal at about 400 AGL at the South end of the High Rock LZ, which had waist to chest high grass. After the thermal petered out, she set up her approach to land. While on final, Daniel Broxterman reported that the wind switched direction 180 degress, probably due to thermal activity. Karen realized she was flying with a much higer ground speed than normal. As she came close to the grass, she flared hard. She reported that she thought she had executed a good flare. The tail wind, however, had sent her farther on final than she had anticipated and put her at the gully about 2/3 down the length of the field. The gully is about 4-5 feet deep. The high grass masked the gully, otherwise known as the whack-dip. Due to either the tail wind, the high grass grabbing Karen and/or her base tube, improper flare timing and/or not holding the flare long enough, the glider nosed over and dropped approximately 7-9 feet downhill into the very bottom of the dip.

As the glider impacted into terra firma, Karen let go of the downtubes and tried to tuck her arms into her chest. But she wasn't quick enough. She broke the humerus of her left arm. There was, however, no damage to the glider. Karen was face down in her glider and we decided to call an ambulance because it would be too difficult to move her or splint her in place. Emma Jane didn't want the ambulance to drive out into the middle of the field and smash her hay. So the EMT's brought out a stretcher to move her after cutting away her jacket and harness and securing a splint. The EMTs did a great job. Karen was taken by ambulance to Washington County Hospital in Hagerstown. They X-rayed her arm, gave her some Percocet, put her arm in a splint and a sling and sent her home.

Karen wants to thank everyone for their help: Daniel, Judy-Judy, Carlos, Kelvin and Susan, Ralph and Maria, Carlos, David, Mark, Craig and Dan. Karen will file an accident report with more details later, including how she initially thought her arm had fallen off. She will be going to an orthopedic surgeon, hopefully, on Tuesday (June 1) for further treatment.

She hopes to recover before Paul Tjaden as he is a big wimp

1. Paul Tjaden who precisely five weeks before - 2004/04/24 - had been choppered out from a Ridgely XC flight "landing" in a plowed field with a badly snapped humerus because his flare timing wasn't quite perfect enough.

2. She didn't. As I recall there was a problem with blood flow to the break area and/or a nerve damage issue and that arm was seriously out of commission for a LONG time and there were no predictions that could be made for an outcome. Eventually though, as we all know...

Matthew (Karen can't type yet, of Karen and Matthew)

Ralph Sickinger - 2004/05/31 15:29:26 UTC

While I realize that this incident is no fun for Karen, and she has my deepest sympathies at being knocked out of hang gliding (and other activities) for the Summer, I have to share this anecdote, as a proof that life can be sad and funny at the same time...

Picture this: the glider is nosed over, but completely intact; Karen is unhooked, but still laying face-down in the grass with her heavy jacket and harness on, and basically unable to move. The EMTs have just arrived, and one of the them is trying to look at her arm; the rest of us are hanging out about 10 feet away, in case they suddenly need an extra 3 or 4 sets of hands to move her or her glider. I hear the EMT ask for scissors, and say that "we're going to have to cut this away so that we can look at your arm". I hear a few quick, high-pitched squeaks from Karen (who is obviously in great pain), but I can't make out the words - until I hear the EMT respond "No, we're just going to cut the jacket - I understand that it's probably really expensive."

Isn't that typical for a hang glider pilot? Her arm is broken (she thinks it fell off), but heaven forbid that anything happen to her glider or harness!

Unfortunately, they did end up having to cut the straps on the harness (which broke my heart), but Matthew showed them how to cut it right at the ends, so they can probably be repaired pretty easily.

Karen: hang in there, get well soon, and I hope to see you back out here soon! (PS: I finally got some good launch pictures of you!)

Landing in tall grass with a tail wind going downhill, well, there's really no good possible outcome. And there wasn't.

Bull fucking shit, Matthew. She was a quarter second shy of getting her left hand out of arm snap configuration and walking away smelling like a rose with a glider in the same shape it was in at launch - the launch which will kill her and end your career a bit under eleven and a half years later.

Mountain flying is DANGEROUS - beginning, middle, end. 'Specially when you dickheads preach that shit LZs are perfectly safe as long as you've worked enough to perfect your flare timing. "Everything going to hell in a handbasket at once... Let's fix the problem with a stunt landing that nobody can ever do under the best of circumstances. What's the worst that could happen?"

02-02627
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1470/25532108590_c0c76fea68_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1465/25832784365_fe54bcb785_o.png
32-15700

And you motherfuckers permanently killed your option of treating and flying your gliders like the sailplanes they are through seventeen years of mismanagement, total incompetence, stupidity, sleaziness, and cowardice. Have yourselves a nice future and keep on doing things worse and worse to get better results.
---
Edit - 2016/03/20 14:40:00 UTC

Correction: Skimmed the post too quickly. The chopper landed at the same time the ambulance arrived but Paul only had one flight that day.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34176
Retirement Flight

Jack Barth - 2016/03/19 03:13:33 UTC

Thursday at Crestline very good day until i ILanded. Moderate wind in LZ
Very good landing condtions overall. 2 1\2 hrs 7.5k. Started final leaving a little VG
Pulled. Wing appeared to slow and settle so I flaired a little to aggressively. The wing kited and climbed 10 to 15 ft. I've been critized for not holding my flairs so I did this time. Big mistake it dropped hard. Unable to get my. Right arm inside downtubes quick enough. Severely blew out the right elbow. During the past 4 yrs
I've had a pace maker installed, broken ankle mountain biking, and now the arm.
I'm 70 been flying without any major oopsies for 37 years. Can't handle any more
Trauma at this age so I'm retiring . My wings for real this time. It's been a great ride
---
H4 (1979) Lake Elsinore. Ca. U2 160 (Sweet)
"If Your One Who Doesn't Succeed At First Maybe Hanggliding's Not For You"

Classic!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34110
Teaching out of a van.

Rolla Manning - 2016/03/07 08:32:10 UTC

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body. But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting "Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Totally nailed it, Jack. Glad you went out doing what you loved.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34176
Retirement Flight

NMERider - 2016/03/19 04:16:24 UTC

There's also no shame in landing on wheels.

After you're a Five with a thousand hours anyway.

This accident...

Wasn't an accident.

...wouldn't have happened with a wheel landing.

Or...

32-15700
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1465/25832784365_fe54bcb785_o.png

Rome Dodson flew into his early 80's landing on wheels and so have many others like Spiderputz who flew well into his 70's landing on wheels and suprone too. Besides that, my good buddy, Tad endorses wheel landings.

2016/03/19 04:25:42 UTC - 3 thumbs up - flysurfski

Rodger Hoyt - 2016/03/19 10:19:02 UTC

You're just suffering from post-accident depression.

No, he's just suffering from post blown stupid stunt landing in brain dead easy conditions on a Happy Acres putting green depression - and a severely blown out the right elbow.

To paraphrase Morgan Freeman, if you quit flying you'll start dying.

He didn't wanna fly. His glider wanted to fly and end the flight gently and safety. He FORCED IT to quit flying - abruptly.

Like the wise men above said, get a SS floater, and some big basetube wheels - that should keep you flying into your 80's.

And when you force that one to quit flying it won't rocket up as high.

Nigel Hewitt - 2016/03/19 11:38:44 UTC
Brighton, Sussex

Hey I'm 66. I don't need people setting me a bad example.

You're in the wrong sport then.

Relax, get healed and make life changing decisions once the pressure is off.

The pressure WAS off. He went way the fuck outta his way to crank it up as much as possible.

Red Howard - 016/03/19 12:41:05 UTC

Hey Jack,

Camper Jack.

I would not challenge your decision, but I would say, put off that decision until the elbow has healed.

Two years from now.

When you are ready...

Again.

...you can better decide then about the risks and rewards of HG airtime.

The only risk involved in his airtime was his decision to cut it short.

Wheels can be one reasonable option there...

Throwing your chute a hundred feet over the LZ can be another. Decisions, decisions...

...if you can accept their limits.

Wheels have their limits, severely blown out right elbows have others. If you're having a hard time narrowing your options down just toss a coin.

I am old enough now to appreciate the friendlier LZs, which give me larger margins to work with.

But no fuckin' way you young whippersnappers could learn to appreciate the places people ACTUALLY LAND IN.

I do this flyin' stuff for FUN.

I do it to fulfill my childhood dream of perfected flare timing.

Depression can be a spiral dive...

No. What it ACTUALLY does is transform one into a deranged megalomaniac. Ask me how I know.

...but there certainly may be a recovery, both physical and mental. You can level out and glide, if that is your real choice.

Which is exactly what he should've been doing on his final final.

I feel I would be remiss if I did not suggest some alternatives for the time being, also. Maybe you can get yourself some sailplane time; the flying clubs can provide about the cheapest air, in that realm. Check out the AirChairs also. The Mike Sandlin designs are free and proven...

Just like Rooney Links.

...and several are flying in California. PM me, if you like.

Shut up, red.

Allen Sparks - 2016/03/19 13:57:07 UTC

Jack,
That's is bad news
I'm sincerely hoping that my eventual retirement decision isn't driven by an accident.

Don't worry. It won't be. Accidents are virtually nonexistent in hang gliding.

Wheels can work very well, especially at places like AJX.

But not so much in the narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place where you land eighty percent of the time.

I tend to use them in more challenging LZ conditions, which can be risky.

Compared to what?

I just can't quit yet.
I sure hope your arm heals quickly.

Wait a week or two before you start holding your breath.

Brian Scharp - 2016/03/19 16:28:41 UTC

NMERider - 2016/03/19 04:16:24 UTC

This accident wouldn't have happened with a wheel landing.

True.

There's also no shame in landing on wheels.

Bullshit. There's a stigma associated with landing on wheels that only a small percentage are willing to confront or ignore. Otherwise why would it be necessary to make that proclamation?

Get well soon Jack.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2016/03/19 16:36:35 UTC

Yes there are some pilots that will criticize anything but, who cares about them?

Everybody. It's a massively social sport and total douchebag magnet and if one starts standing out for any reason he gets all kinds of wires cut.

We are all aging...

I can name you a whole shitload of pilots who've stopped aging since this time last year.

...and at some point need to adjust to the physical challenges to landing with a 100 lb payload.

Would ceasing to practice for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place be an acceptable adjustment?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34176
Retirement Flight

NMERider - 2016/03/19 17:20:38 UTC

Of course there's a stigma associated with relying on wheels to land a hang glider.

I'll bet that doesn't happen in sailplaning. We need to design our pods such that they must be zipped up right after foot launch and can't be unzipped until after the glider's rolled to a stop. We'd cut the crash, injury, fatality rates by over eighty percent.

Hanggliding.org has historically been...

...some sleazy incompetent dickhead's living room so it's pretty easy to predict what will and won't happen there.

...the single biggest...

...hang gliding "community" in the world. And that's never gonna be a good thing.

...source of this stigma and in fact, the self-appointed pseudo-safety trolls of the Org...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

...have done more to make the sport of hang gliding unsafe than they'll ever admit to.

Name them if you really wanna start reversing some of the damage.

That's life on the internet and in many LZs. And this is somehow news? That is the old Org and the wheel vilification stopped years ago so get off your high horse, Brian.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

The expression "There's no shame in..." is an old, old expression of encouragement that's applicable to just about any endeavor.

ETJ lives a short drive from AJX and so if he gets to itch to fly again he can gosh darned well do it the way the hundreds of pilots do it--by landing on the well groomed surface using wheels. Honestly about half the places I bail out when flying X/C can be landed on using 6-1/4" plastic wheels.

And if you wanted to trade off some modest percentage of your mileage you could safely stop on those wheels the other half of the time as well.

So there you have it.

Oh good. So Joe Greblo and his colleagues are now gonna be signing off nothing but wheel landing Ones and Twos.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/10/02 16:09:28 UTC

You need to realize a discussion is a TWO WAY street.
You are #1 on the ignore list because no one likes talking to a brick wall.

I personally think that your position of staying on the basetube when landing and relying on wheels is completely flawed.

There are times when having your landing gear below you is a great idea.
There are times when having the skill to land on your feet is critical.

To always take extreme positions and debate against something that obvious, is just unreasonable.

Locking down this dead horse.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/09 16:27:17 UTC

Although technically correct, its similar to saying:
"Driving 10mph, the safest and easiest way to consistently not lose control of your automobile"

Only problem is, who cares. I dont care to land my hang glider on a smooth grassy field of grass on the wheels every time, for the same reason I dont care to drive my car 10mph. Thats not why im in this sport or why I want to drive a car.

I think youre in the wrong sport if you have this attitude. Go take up knitting.

But notice.... Christian's comment is in the context of a disability. No issue with this. But if youre a fully able HG pilot, there is no reason to think you should only land on smooth grass on the wheels. Theres far more to this sport than that.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34176
Retirement Flight

Brian Scharp - 2016/03/19 19:38:34 UTC

Less than two years ago...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31557
To Wheel Or Not To Wheel...

NMERider - 2014/07/13 03:17:14 UTC

Pilots should be given valid and valuable information for all available wheel and non-wheel options. They should not be pressured, insulted or ridiculed but they are and that is inexcusable.

NMERider - 2016/03/19 20:04:44 UTC
I must have early onset dementia.

We all do. That's why we've gotta keep doing what we can when we can.

gluesniffer - 2016/03/19 20:36:02 UTC

Jack, sorry to hear.

I probably haven't been flying for as long as you, however in my 20 years I have never over flared. I have belly flopped twice. I think under flaring and running out landings or a belly flop is preferable to an over flare. So wheels, an easier wing, and less aggressive flare and your good to go. A mild flop here and there enh....But what ever makes you happy!

Now to the wheel landing debate

Are there any foot launching schools that allow a student to progress with out learning to land on their feet first? I think it is OK for those people who physically cannot do it, but other wise first day students some how manage to at least learn how to run out landings.

Except for the twenty percent who break their arms and never come back whom we never hear about.

Should I just not even walk anymore and get an electric scooter and live in a padded bubble? People that are physically able and can't land on their feet need to not leave the t hill until they can.

We can just read your post and see how perfect YOU are.

Then if they want to land on wheels in a perfectly smooth field fine, but for emergency situations, the ability should be there.

Get fucked.

Comet - 2016/03/19 20:36:27 UTC

Get a new Wills Wing glider. According to company press releases, every new glider they introduce lands easier than a trainer. But amazingly the glider it superseded suddenly gets a reputation for landing difficulty

Okay, this thread has officially degenerated...

And here's what Wills Wing REALLY thinks about ALL hang glider foot landings:

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Jack Barth - 2016/03/19 21:40:35 UTC

Wheels

Had wheels but landing conditions were good for a standup just screwed up

Yeah. You took a big risk for no sane reason - made your safety dependent upon skill, precise judgment and timing and paid a big price. You've gotten away with it thousands of times before but this time you didn't. And that makes all those thousands of times you pulled it off flawlessly and got all those cheers from the peanut gallery not worth it. Big fuckin' surprise.

That's the point of the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?" but what's he do at the end? Tells ya to go out and practice your dangerous landings until you can master doing dangerous landings.

Can't accept anymore liability.
Im usually very good at adapting...

To everything but wheel landings - 'cause those are for girls!

...but not this time. In the back of my mind is I can get back on the horse, but I really don't want to. Thanks for all the. Well wishes and support. It's time to hang the spurs up. My insurance company will rejoice

What a stupid, shit, sad way to end a flying career.

[NMERider]

It's far too difficult to pull stunts like this one with any degree of consistency for most (but not all) pilots....

The Result of Diligent Landing Practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QGKgrbknY8
Vicarious Icarus - 2016/03/14
dead

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC
Crestline

Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QGKgrbknY8
The Result of Diligent Landing Practice

NMERider - 2016/03/14

2016-03-14 Andy Jackson Airpark

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34176
Retirement Flight

Steve Corbin - 2016/03/20 06:58:36 UTC

I'm a wheel lander and proud of it. In fact I wish I'd started it sooner than I did, I didn't know what I was missing. It's really a lot of fun.

For too many pilots, a great flight ends with fear and loathing. Trying to fly along the ground with shifting and variable winds at or very near stall speed is a recipe for disaster. Yet this is the way ya do it for full flare landings.

We older guys need to consider that we ain't young pups anymore. Bones might break more easily, and take longer to heal.

I think that for more pilots than will admit it, final approach is a rather unpleasant experience. "Am I gonna get it right this time?"

For me, it's totally OK to limit my flying to the extent necessary that will ensure a good LZ every time.

If it's rowdy in the LZ I can land with a higher airspeed on wheels. No need to fly through that window of vulnerability, that of flying slowly in possibly turbulent air at the bottom of the gradient.

I'm 63 and just not ready to throw in the towel. Hang Gliding is just too damn much fun.

NMERider - 2016/03/20 07:06:02 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.