http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?
NMERider - 2015/11/16 18:57:50 UTC
Thanks for the heads up.
Now that they've got this thing too far along for anyone to be able to stop it.
What kind of data will USHPA members be able to access?
The kind u$hPa will allow u$hPa members to access.
So why should access be restricted to members? Shouldn't Arys Moorhead's family have at least had the OPTION of checking out what ACTUALLY goes on in this sport before buying the thirty day fake membership and handing their eleven-year-old over for the tandem thrill ride? Would it have led to a worse outcome if they'd been familiarized better with critical equipment and procedural issues? When an airliner goes down with your sister on board do you need to be a member of the APA to be allowed access to the NTSB report?
Will there be incidents as well as accidents?
As long as there was a Tad-O-Link involved to which any negative outcome can be attributed.
What time span(s) will be included?
Ten minutes ago. Then everything's wiped.
Will there be a section on each report for comments?
I have read some accident reports that frankly I do not agree with the facts or the findings.
Fine. Just make up some facts and findings that you do agree with. This is u$hPa's baby - not yours.
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/11/16 18:59:55 UTC
Not to get too graphic, but my understanding is that a number of the fatal accidents we've seen are simply a case of a human body decelerating faster than it can withstand internally.
Duh.
Armor or not, if you come to a sudden stop, stuff comes loose inside. If you tear an artery internally, you'll bleed to death inside before it's possible to get you to a surgeon. If it's a big artery (aorta, vena cava) you wouldn't be saved even if you were on the operating table with a surgeon standing right there. It's just too much to fix, and not enough time to fix it. A broken leg can be fatal if it severs the big fermoral artery in your leg, because there's enough volume available there to bleed out internally and no way to get a tourniquet on it.
I heard of a case where a tandem crashed, one person had broken a leg (or something along that line) and the other person was just banged up. The focus was on the person who had the broken leg, and the apparently uninjured person started to feel a bit faint, then keeled over dead. They didn't feel so bad, and adrenaline kept them from realizing how badly they were injured.
"They" who? I thought only one person died on that one.
Head injuries are another significant factor. A good helmet helps with those...
So does coming in upright with your hands on the control tubes.
...and I personally wear a motocross helmet. I'm not a fan of lightweight helmets with relatively thin cushioning.
So how many times in the course of your career has your motocross helmet spared you from serious head trauma?
In brain injuries, it's all about peak deceleration. You lower that peak by giving the skull more distance to get stopped, and that means a thicker layer of internal foam between your head and the outer shell.
Steve...
Steve who?
...related a story a few years ago about a launch gone wrong, and he attributed his lack of serious injury to his chest-mounted reserve chute, which took the brunt of the impact when he hit chest-first on a big rock.
How'd his sidewires come out?
It spread the load out, and gave his body a few inches of extra room to get stopped.
1. So can you refer us to the published incident report? Or did you suppress it because somebody with a side mounted chute had previously died and almost certainly would've been OK with a chest mount and u$hPa was scared shitless of getting its ass sued off for not having previously issued an advisory on this harness option?
2. I think it's a pretty good bet that chest mounted parachutes have saved more lives in their containers than they have deployed.
NMERider - 2015/11/16 21:39:12 UTC
Chest-mounted reserves may be a mixed blessing because they allow the head to get whipped forward far enough in a body strike to cause a whiplash injury or even spinal cord damage resulting in paralysis or death.
Do we have any evidence of this ever happening? We DO have pretty good accounts/evidence of it PREVENTING/MITIGATING injuries. I'd say go chest if that's the only consideration. Plus nobody's ever had a chute trapped in a side mounted container à la Adam Parer and that outrageous bullshit got him partially killed and damn near got him totally killed.
I know of several accidents in which the pilots went in face-first into boulders with predictable consequences.
Yep. That's why you wanna come in upright on the control tubes. No fuckin' way you're gonna impact face-first from that configuration.
The first responders who I know were never really the same after that and I have heard from others who may be quitting the sport or have already quit.
As far as body armor goes, knee pads are a great idea and are very commonplace with my mid-50s and above aged peer group. Aside from a good helmet, knee pads are the about the most useful piece of protective kit I can think of.
Discounting wheels or skids - which oughta be standard glider components.
I still think pilots should heed Dave Hopkins' advice about using the glider itself as you main piece of protective gear and get as far inside the structure as you can so that it crumples before your body hits anything. Make the glider take the impact first.
Is that what you did here:
20-30326
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2860/13650864904_5d87fcc970_o.png
Jonathan? Can you show me a crash video in which either somebody actually does that or it would be a good idea to do that?
Dave Hopkins is totally full o' shit on just about everything he utters. You fly the fuckin' plane until you can't anymore. And then about the time it hits you may have a fraction of a second to do something to mitigate the outcome. When an airliner's going down the passengers and cabin crew go into crash configuration. The pilots keep flying the fuckin' plane.
Hey Jonathan... You forget to thank Mark for his detailed and courteous response to all your questions.
Robert Moore - 2015/11/17 00:33:07 UTC
I'm with you, Mark.
Fuck you then. If Mark were saving panda cubs I'd have to think a bit about being with him.
I won't go for less than a DOT helmet, but there are plenty of other helmets offering more protection than the typical HG helmet. Here in the SF Bay Area, there seems to be a growing trend of pilots seeking out better head protection.
Since they seem to be totally incapable of seeking out better flying equipment and procedures.
It may be an increase in awareness, but can also be attributed to local instructors steering students away for purchasing HG helmets.
Yeah, I'm guessing Mission...
164-20729
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16488797369_9b8f9f9d89_o.png
...wants and needs its students to be totally bubble-wrapped. Pretty much a must when you're using state-of-the-art towing equipment.
Many of my HG buddies have joined me in buying Kali brand MX helmets. They're surprisingly lightweight and have a next-generation EPS foam design to further slow head deceleration. Dustin Martin flies with a Kali BMX helmet he claims is lighter than his Icaro HG helmet.
How's he claim it works?
There are some great helmet options out there that didn't exist just a few years ago...
And yet we have this huge spike in fatalities this year. Go figure.
Matt Christensen - 2015/11/17 00:43:23 UTC
Some good discussion here, but the title of this thread is bullshit.
Yes. So what did you think of these threads:
and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's contributions to them?
Matt Christensen - Virginia - 90918 - H3 - 2012/04/01 - Steve Wendt - AT FL PL ST
Did your exceptionally knowledgeable instructor...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
...have any exceptionally knowledgeable comments on any of the relevant issues?
---
"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
Great tag you've got for your posts there, Matt - 'specially for this discussion. Spend much time discussing flying with Wonder Boy?
Glenn Zapien - 2015/11/17 02:49:36 UTC
I have been a first responder...
I'd have been fuckin' amazed if you HADN'T been.
...watched him die when we tried to get him off the hill to a helicopter. Took years to stop thinking about him every time I flew over the location of where he crashed.
So apparently he didn't know about using his glider as a crush zone?
Ya notice, Jonathan, that failure to take advantage of the glider's crush zone potential has NEVER ONCE in the history of the sport been cited as an issue in the outcome of a crash in which there were serious consequences. Nobody's ever reviewed a crash video and said, "Right there at 7:23! That's when he should've..." Note that there are ZERO crash videos showing very old pilots like Dave Hopkins saving their asses with proper crush zone responses. None of our scores of top notch instructors are teaching proper crush zone responses and running simulation exercises at altitude. Fuckin' crush zone response is almost as useful as the hook knife emergency backup tow release. Every punctuation mark ever written about it is a waste of an opportunity to be discussing something with some foundation in reality.
It defiantly slowed my roll.
Yep. No doubt. Obviously. Defiantly.
Even more so when others I knew started being hurt badly or killed.
Guess that was before the Bay Area local instructors started steering students away from purchasing HG helmets.
Then I was told I was too conservative when being concerned for newer pilots coming up the hill. I blame complacency, ego, and plain getting away with poor launches or landings until they don't.
Do you blame any of the instructors for anything?
I believe You're better off simply working on your own skills with diligence and attitude of always being a student...
Fuck always being a fucking student. When I get on a fucking passenger jet I don't want the fucking Pilot In Command always being a fucking student. I want him to know what the fuck he's doing and will do if the shit hits the fan. My doctor? Yeah, I DO want HIM to always be a student 'cause that stuff's a billion times more complex, nuanced, dynamic, evolving than flying a goddam plane - one with no engine and zilch in the way of moving parts in our case. Reminds me a lot of always being a student of third grade arithmetic. If some asshole can't stop being a student and start being a pilot by about Hang 3.5 he should probably find another hobby more tolerant of his severely limited intellectual capabilities.
Tell me some of the brilliant insights some of you always students dickheads have come up with and passed along to some of us muppets. The force transmitted through a hang glider towline is pressure? Show me how the sport's evolving forward with this constant rise in collective wisdom.
Who are some of the professors by whom you always student dickheads are constantly being educated? Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight? Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney? Maybe we could stop listening to you always student middlemen and go straight to the sources to get what we need minus the inevitable dilution of quality.
Or do you mean you're always students of the AIR - constantly gaining insights previously known only to sailplane pilots and birds? Show me the progress we've made over the course of the past four and a half decades.
A bit odd that with all you always student dickheads perpetually running around gaining all these new brilliant insights we've got a banner fatalities year and the sport's imploding at a snowballing rate, dontchya think?
Give one single thing one of you always student dickheads has ever contributed to the sport or shut the fuck up.
...than trying to talk to a long time pilot with shitty launches and landing skills.
EVERYBODY's got shitty FOOT launching and landing skills. The last two fatals were a normal final and a normal cliff launch with multi decade backgrounds who were doing their jobs flawlessly. And quote me somebody - other than Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - who claims to have solid foot launching and landing skills.
The longer they've gotten away with it, the less likely it will be accepted.
I wonder what it's like to be in a flavor of aviation in which long time pilots...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...have adequate landing skills - and better things to talk about.
Hang Gliding needs to be viewed as a individual sport.
Goddam fuckin' right. How else are ya gonna run opinion based aviation with the average pilot IQ at about 23?
A sport that has goals that differ from one pilot to the next.
I dunno... Isn't perfecting flare timing pretty universal and constant?
If a pilot finds them self trying to reach the goal or level other than their own and more of a peer, then the risk for accident creeps in.
Yeah, that sure would explain this year's spike in fatals.
Grouping pilots up, and blanket statements in this sport minimizes the true dynamics and complexities of Hang Gliding.
Yeah, some pilots do stomp tests, others fear that the damage they do grinding their sidewires into sharp rocks will outweigh any possible benefits. Funny we only seem to be seeing members of the latter group dying from sidewire failures.
I have always asked for feedback and still do.
You're an Instructor, Mentor, Observer...
Glenn Zapien - California - 85436 - H3 - 2008/09/28 - Ken Muscio - FL ST AWCL FSL RLF TUR XC - BAS INST, MNTR, OBS
right?
If you can't perform these basic, fundamental, Hang One/Two skills competently, reliably, consistently and evaluate your own performance how can you teach them and evaluate and qualify your Hang One and Two students and expect them to be able to foot launch competently, reliably, consistently in appropriate environments and conditions in which their safety may be at considerable risk?
One thing I stick to is if more than one pilot is saying the same thing, you better listen.
I'm listening. I'm hearing everyone and his fuckin' dog saying that it's humanly impossible to achieve competency in foot launching and landing. This is just something that everyone eternally STRIVES to do and either gets injured or killed out of the sport, usually due to deficiencies in these skills, or quietly withers away no more competent and reliable than he was when he got his Two signed off thirty or forty years ago. Are you hearing something different?
Have a firm grasp where you are as a pilot and your current limitations within a reasonable comfort level.
I have no comfort level. I suck at foot launching and landing - just like you do. It's just a matter of time before we buy the farm. But what the hell, we engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction. If I didn't think there was a good chance I was gonna die with every foot launch and landing I'd take up wingsuiting and see how close I could get to the rock outcroppings.
I find discomfort a bit when I hear people say Hang Gliding is "easy" . Yea, easy to kill or hurt yourself real quick if you lose respect, and let your ego, or lack of experience put you in the recipe for disaster.
Or if you don't. Jesse Fulkersin and Karen Carra had tons of experience, super attitudes regarding their skills and limitations, did absolutely nothing wrong, and both ended up dead. Ditto for Zack Marzec, Bertrand Delacroix. We're seeing a definite trend towards no fault fatalities in this era of the sport. Must've already killed off all the douchebags with inadequate skills and poor judgment, now superb responsible pilots are just getting killed at random.
Too many times I see pilots with this.
What about what I'm seeing?
It's so much more. It's easy to lose perspective of this yes very risky activity, so don't.
Very risky! I just got an erection that lasted four hours or more and had to call my doctor!
All I know is I have been in this sport long enough to see the same patterns over and over.
NO! We keep doing the same things over and over expecting to perfect our foot launch and landing skills, knowing that these goals have never been actually achieved by any actual human in the actual history of the sport and keep getting the same results? Who'da thunk.
Oh well... Fly at your own risk, results may vary.
Yep. Just like Russian roulette. Maybe we could get some Russian roulette masters to give us some tips on how to get the critical points across to our students.
Great job dude. Looks like you addressed Robert's question pretty well. Thread's been dormant for over a day and a half now after ninety posts and thousands of hits. Reading 6122 at the moment.
