instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45440 m
The Future of Free Flight in the U.S. is at Risk!

Graeme Henderson - 2015/12/08 21:01:06 UTC

Root rot kills anything.

Really? How 'bout fish rotting from the head down? One tends to hear that analysis a lot more out in the real world and probably for a very good reason.

Why aren't kids building and flying their own gliders?

I dunno... Guess it would be a lot of the same several thousand reasons kids have never built and flown their own gliders before.

This could be happening in schools.

See above.

Like any tree that cuts off its roots...

I don't know about any of the trees that cut off their roots. Must've slept through that class at the School of Natural Resources.

...this sport is dying. Deal with the lies and disinformation about the standard Dickenson Wing...

And ignore the lies and disinformation which are the core of The Jack and Davis Shows; the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden; u$hPa accident reports; instructional programs; Dr. Trisa Tilletti Higher Education articles, pretty much anything in this sport you wanna name.

...and allow its use once again.

I don't think there's any prohibition against using the Dickenson Wing. I've just never noticed much interest in moving glider technology decades backwards - other than in towing theory and equipment of course.

Once they've flown their home-built a few times they'll be looking for something with a better glide and the manufacturers will get a sale.

The first two gliders I flew were the Sky Sports Eaglet and Seagull Seahawk. The next glider I flew, and owned, was the hottest ship of its day and the model upon all modern high performance gliders are based - the UP Comet. And if the fuckin' Comet had been the only glider available I could and would've learned on it and happily used it until they started tweaking up the performance and handling. I'm one of many flyers I know who were doing just fine with our careers who didn't start by building something in the garage in the Seventies.

Or aren't the kids now a'days allowed to do what we did?

Define "WE", Graeme. How many Davis Show assholes are over there reminiscing with you 'bout them good ol' days? Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

This sport boomed before we had Instructors, they reduced the numbers but educated them a little.

Yeah. I remember one who warned be about the dangerous altitude loss associated with downwind turns.

It boomed before we had a manufacturers group.

And the fatality rate was off the charts before we had the glider certification program put in place by the manufacturers' group.

It boomed before we had all this legislation and tandems and parachutes and instrumentation and other bullshit.

I've always been happy with my parachute and instrumentation bullshit.

- Never came close to needing the chute but it was always nice to know it was there and there've been a lot of people killed who'd have walked away if they'd had or used them. See the previous two photos three posts back. Four people would've walked if the Queenstown bridle hadn't been UVed to death and the Jean Lake deployment handle had been thought of.

- I can't thermal worth shit without a vario and I like to know where and how high I am. And it's awesomely cool to record, view, share digital records of one's flights.

I'd have also been happy if a lot of the aerotow legislation had been brutally enforced.

We removed the first step on the ladder and then sit around and pontificate about why nobody is climbing it any more?

Bull fucking shit. And there aren't a lot of mountain bike junkies who've designed and built their own either. Furthermore, we don't really want assholes in this sport who are unable to ascend a ladder because of a missing bottom step. Those are the people who gravitate to tandem thrill rides.

For the record I supported the way things have gone over the years...

Yeah, we know. That's why you don't get your topics locked and your posts deleted by Davis.

...except for commercial tandems. by whatever name you want to call them.

Would "commercial tandems" work? (As if there were some other flavor.)

I advocated for instructors and schools, wanted a better performing glider, parachutes, all that stuff.

But now you've seen the light and are happy with crap glider performance, Adam Parer caliber parachute systems, Industry Standard easily reachable bent pin releases.

I keep seeing supposed reasons for why the sport is dying, but I think it is us.

It's not me, motherfucker. I could've kept a huge number of participants alive, healthy, and active.

I think it was pilots and pilots organisations.

Name some pilots and pilots' organizations in this sport.

If we could get reliable, even usable numbers we could chart the decline and see what may have caused that.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

But I doubt such numbers exist.
Think about it, maybe the problem isn't them, maybe it's us.

Typical Davis Show assholes? Not a shadow of a doubt.

I busted my fucking ass off designing, engineering, producing, testing, documenting tow equipment. Two point aerotow release system was bulletproof, clean as a fuckin' whistle, weightless. WOULD have saved millions of dollars worth of crashes and lives.
- Couldn't fuckin' GIVE it away to the manufacturers.
- Outside of Antoine in France pretty much ZERO individual interest in reproducing it.
- Industry and general hang gliding population pissed all over it.
- You sat on your useless fat ass doing NOTHING while all that was going on.

MAYBE the problem is "us"? There hasn't been much in the way of innovation in hang gliding since the 1979 Comet. Hang gliding has spent the past three dozen years taking that foldable flying wing and making it cleaner and faster and quadrupling the price tag. And that's the best of the best of the pros. Sorry, not all that impressed. And the weekenders?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33771
My Heroes

Mark Frutiger - 2015/12/09 02:08:59 UTC
Rochester

Let's celebrate the heroes of hang gliding

A quick guideline for this thread, this is a partial list of people I think do not receive the recognition they deserve for their contributions to the sport of hang gliding. Please feel free to add your own heroes or comment positively, but no negative comments about anybody listed here, if you feel the need to do so, do it on another thread. Let's celebrate our own.

My list is in no particular order, just as they come to mind.

Steve Kroop - From the first time I went to a competition up until today, I have known Steve to be "The Man". He contributes freely to keep the sport alive. He takes it on the chin as a business man to help build the sport. He supports every aspect of hang gliding and yet he's rarely recognized for his efforts.

Davis and Belinda Straub - You love him, you hate him, there's seldom a middle ground. Davis and Belinda do everything they can to develop hang gliding. There would be very little happening on the competition front without this dynamic duo. I have spent several seasons working with Davis at Quest and he makes me look lazy. Not bad for a 60+ year old man.

Jamie Sheldon - Jamie is the driving force behind many of major competitions around the country and donates freely of her time on the international scene. When the weather is good, she's a hero, when the weather is bad, she makes lemonade out of lemons.

Malcom Jones - What a phenomenal location he has created. Where would our sport be without Wallaby. His continued investments benefit all.

Matt Taber - Lookout is unique. Training hill, mountain foot launch, aero tow, beautiful accommodations. Matt has put it all on the line to provide a fantastic experience.

Russell and Lori Brown - I am biased about Lori and Russell because I worked for them and consider it one of the best times of my life, but overall, their support of the hang gliding scene has been a net loss. It's OK when everything goes well, but wreck an airplane or trash a truck traveling to a comp and it's a loss for that year and probably the next one as well and yet, they continue to do it.

Mitch Shipley - Meet director and scorer, advanced skills instructor, landing clinic instructor. Mitch generates excitement in the sport.

The Voights - The two of them are an example of how to extract maximum enjoyment from the sport and still do it safely. When you learn to launch and land like a Voight, you may consider yourself a great pilot.

Jon Thompson - Anyone disagree? If so, we got a problem.

Zack Majors - What an incredible ambassador for the sport.

Dustin Martin - With all the arguments about what the best form of hang gliding is, open distance, race to goal, ridge racing, dune gooning or aerobatics, let's remember that Dustin has flown higher, lower, further, longer and in more unusual attitudes than pretty much anyone else in the world. In addition, he's a major innovator in glider and equipment design. He's not getting rich from his efforts.

That's my start for now. I can think of many other pilots on both a national and local level that deserve recognition and am looking forward to hearing from the rest of you.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark Frutiger - 2015/12/09 02:21:14 UTC

I forgot Tiffany and Larry Smith. They are responsible for the #1 attended hang glider event in years. So sorry.

Terry Reynolds gets an atta boy as well.

Tad Eareckson - 2013/02/09 20:13:38 UTC

I'm declaring him an enemy combatant.

Did I call this motherfucker right or what.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33771
My Heroes

NMERider - 2015/12/09 02:37:07 UTC

Every unknown, unpaid and unrecognized volunteer who:
Maintain our launches;
LZs;
Negotiates with landowners and government officials;
Build structures;
Mow the lawns in our LZs;
Don't fly but do drive up, down, chase and retrieve;
and especially those who bring food to the LZ, run BBQs, etc.

Fuck the guys who mow the grass in our LZs. All Twos are qualified to be able to safely land in waist high wheat and narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. Mowing the grass in the LZs is about as positive a contribution for hang gliders as blasting cliff faces to allow shallower ascents would be for rock climbers.

Rich Jesuroga - 2015/12/09 03:54:03 UTC
Salida

Thank you Tiger12 for remembering those that contributed over many years to hang gliding. I might suggest however that Terry and Chris Reynolds contributed much more than just an "atta boy" would garner. Terry and Chris put up the first $10,000 for the 2015 Dinosaur event. Jim Zeiset put up the next $5,000. These are the true contributors to our sport and they should be acknowledged accordingly.

How 'bout Zack Marzec? He gave his life demonstrating to all us muppets just what can happen to a highly trained and skilled professional pilot using aerotow safety equipment that Quest had been perfecting for twenty years towing up behind a top notch tug pilot flying the best tug ever developed in the history of hang gliding. Wasn't that, in fact, Tiger 12 himself at the front end that afternoon? Am I the only one seeing this as something of a snub?

Tom Lyon - 015/12/09 06:50:32 UTC

Tracy and Lisa at Cloud 9 in Michigan have been absolutely wonderful for me. It would take me a very long time to describe all of the things they have done (starting with a world-class facility)

Think you could do it in the space of 56 pages? Four times the length that those two stupid twats took to describe the ideal loop of fishing line to use for aerotow safety?

....to help me become a competent aerotow pilot.

A WHAT?

I will always be indebted to the entire crew at Lookout as well, which is where I learned to foot launch.

Were you able to become as competent a foot launch pilot as you are an aerotow pilot?

The instructors, staff, Matt, and everyone at Lookout have been really great to me, and I have some dear friends in Chattanooga now as a result.

Asshole.

Rodger Hoyt - 2015/12/09 09:38:40 UTC

Nice post.

These individuals have inspired me: Didier Favre, Larry Tudor, Rich Pfeiffer, Manfred Ruhmer, Felix Ruhle, Rob Kells, Steve Moyes, Jerome Stewart, Shannon Raby, Dave Hopkins, Craig Cox.

The inclusion of Dave Hopkins in that list should tell you a good bit about the validity of the rest of the list.

I hope that I have inspired others in turn.

I know I'm certainly in your debt.

Brad Barkley - 2015/12/09 13:08:26 UTC

This list would be incomplete without mentioning Steve Wendt at Blue Sky...

Fuck yeah! He's exceptionally knowledgeable.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

Hell, he's the one that signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating.

...who has singlehandedly taught thousands of pilots...

Really hard to imagine how the sport could possibly be going extinct with a contribution like that. Or really how there could possibly be so much cluelessness being discussed and argued out on the forums with all of his products out there able to set everybody straight with pearls of his distilled wisdom.

...constantly reinforces a conservative culture of safety that is sadly lacking in our sport...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

Hard to argue with either your point or his.

...and who teaches nearly everyday, all year long.

A pity all that genius is being wasted on Hang Zero scooter tow students nearly every day, all year long.

He also is the pioneer and innovator of the "low and slow" scooter tow method of instruction, which is the easiest and safest way to get students into the air.

NOTHING, of course, like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45440
The Future of Free Flight in the U.S. is at Risk!

Michael Grisham - 2015/12/06 19:17:51 UTC

What is at issue is assuming the financial risk of irresponsible behavior. With just the scant facts of the case, Mr. Venard had just joined the USHPA one month prior and was a trainee. Is there anyone out there who is going to make an argument that towing a paraglider behind a boat is the safest way to teach a new student how to paraglide?

And really hard to argue that students Steve teaches nearly every day, all year long using the unfathomably innovative and brilliant "low and slow" scooter tow method of instruction, which is the easiest and safest way to get students into the air, don't emerge superbly qualified for anything and everything that this sport has to throw at them.

A bit odd that with nine fatal US crashes this year so far neither Steve nor his most gifted prodigy has offered us muppets a single syllable's worth of guidance, dontchya think?

wonderwind_flyer - 2015/12/09 13:11:18 UTC
NW Michigan

Early heroes are Otto Lilienthal and Francis Rogallo.

Otto Lilienthal's accomplishments were amazing. But I doubt that the subsequent history of aviation would've looked much different if he'd had another hobby.

Francis Rogallo... If he was such a great aeronautical engineer then how come he never did or said shit about frame towing and Donnell's lunatic Skyting theory?

Modern heroes are today's hang glider designers around the world.

Yeah, tell me about some of the amazing developments they've brought forth over the course of the past 36 years. Backup loops integrated with the primaries?

Without their dedication to the sport many of us would probably still be jumping from our parent's garage roofs with bedsheets.

Bullshit. They plateaued a decade and a half ago with more performance than most people want. Most people are as happy as they'll ever be flying Sport 2s. And they've been criminally negligent in landing and towing gear and towing theory.

Wills Wing - 2015/12/09

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Longer weak links are more likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release. Carry a hook knife when towing.

Fuck all of them.

Mark Frutiger - 2015/12/09 14:55:44 UTC

HangDiver, you are so right, Terry Reynolds is an inspiration to all.

Thank you so much for speaking on my behalf, Mark.

As a form of recognition to him I took the sail from his prototype TR3 that he was trashing and hung it as a tribute in the hanger at Quest.

What did you do with Zack Marzec's glider?

His innovations were well ahead of others.

What did he have to say about Zack Marzec's last flight? Probably got hit by an invisible dust devil?

I was also very happy to see Dave Hopkins name show up.

I too am also very happy to see Dave Hopkins appear in a discussion. The gift that keeps on giving.

There is very little he doesn't know...

The very little that he doesn't know is just slightly larger than very little Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney doesn't know - or have sussed out pretty well.

...or hasn't done in this sport...

Virtually nothing that doesn't involve rational thought processes.

...and the way he shares with others is an example for all.

Can't argue with that.

What was that you were saying about a mutual masturbation society, Jonathan?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33771
My Heroes

Tom Lyon - 2015/12/09 06:50:32 UTC

Tracy and Lisa at Cloud 9 in Michigan have been absolutely wonderful for me.

I'm sure they have. They're really into majorly malleable assholes who swallow whatever they feed them without question.

It would take me a very long time to describe all of the things they have done (starting with a world-class facility) to help me become a competent aerotow pilot.

- Skip it. We'll just take your word for it.

- So are you a competent aerotow pilot now? Or are they still helping you become one? If the latter what are the snags and why are they so difficult for you to overcome?

- This guy:

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


was a competent aerotow pilot, right? Nobody's ever breathed a word to the contrary - certainly not Trisa. He did absolutely nothing wrong and ended up:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


So of what possible use is it being a competent aerotow pilot?

Trisa obviously discussed this one with you 'cause otherwise no fuckin' way you'd be saying they're helping you to become a competent aerotow pilot, right? So how come they didn't post anything publicly? How can they be considered heroes of the sport if they only feed the critically important information to the people who are paying them?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33771
My Heroes

Rolla Manning - 2015/12/10 00:05:24 UTC

Eric Raymond
Was the driving force in me wanting to fly Ridged's some day

- Fly Ridged's what?
- Best learn to spell them before you fly them.

George Worthington and Chuck Rhodes
Put the burning desire in to move into my Millennium

George Worthington died stupidly and was buddies with Rick Masters who's a major asshole and Bille Floyd who's a major mega asshole.

---
Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body. But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting "Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Fuckin' idiot.

skyman - 2015/12/10 00:32:51 UTC

Don't forget about Joe Greblo, he was my instructor (1976)...

Did you ever learn to fly prone with your hands on the control tubes connector bar?

...and in my humble opinion he was/is an ambassador of the sport...

Yep. The one that's currently going down the tubes.

...and one of the few who could actually make a living at it..,

I don't know if you've been following any of the discussions but the people who got into this sport to make livings at it ain't all that popular right now.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33771
My Heroes

Mark Frutiger - 2015/12/09 02:08:59 UTC

Mitch Shipley - Meet director and scorer, advanced skills instructor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U
Mitch teaches weak link break strategy

If you take this away that angle goes from there to now there and the... You're stalled. You're stalled.
You know... You're plowing through the air.
And no longer can you...
So you immediately... When you lose this coforce you have to adjust the angle of attack, gain speed down...
'Cause you've got plenty of speed this way, right? 'Cause you're actually going up.
You're...
You bet. It's like a parachute. So what you have to do is establish and angle of attack such that when you're going down...
So... Immediately...
And it's not a STUFF... It's a good... Put...
Then you wait, gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and...
But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.

...landing clinic instructor.

An excellent one. Amazing that with Mitch, Ryan, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney out there there's anyone left in the sport who even needs to take a landing clinic.

Mitch generates excitement in the sport.

No...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...shit. And his crash reports are real page turners as well.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


So if Mitch is a real hero of the sport...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...how come nobody's listing the hero of the heroes? Did Mitch's hero run his mouth a bit too much in the second half of the winter of 2012/2012?

I think even some of the stupider amongst you were able to finally see what a vile little snake oil salesman Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney actually is.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

So if Mitch is endorsing him...

Still no mention of Dennis Pagen. He was my hero when I got into the sport - and for way too long thereafter. Much smarter and smoother snake oil salesman than Rooney ever had a snowball's chance in hell of becoming.

[Steve Davy]

What was that you were saying about a mutual masturbation society, Jonathan?

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that idiotic thread.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33727
Do we really need insurance?

Dave Gills - 2015/12/09 15:40:02 UTC

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/12/02 06:02:48 UTC

Our corporate attorney, Tim Herr, is a hang glider pilot.

An H0 with a member number of 48274 and no skills?
That may explain why we're losing all our money.

Mike Jefferson - 2015/12/09 19:56:41 UTC

lawyer guy

Yeah, I asked mgforbes where Tim flies but I got no reply. Maybe Mark doesn't get notice to replies on this thread.

And obviously doesn't monitor critical Mark G. Forbes issues threads either.

Most of what the ushga goons tell us is either a straight up lie or a vague misleading statement. Like the statement, "The future of free flight in the US is at stake!" Just like Mark's statement that has been proven to be a lie or at least a misleading statement.

How 'bout:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

Please, no speculation

Hi folks,

I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.

Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

Or:

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/31 03:10:32 UTC

I'm not either, so I rely on the advice I get from people who are. Based on our past experience, comments in club forums and venues like this one can and will be cited in court. As an example, a comment as innocuous as "Let's all keep an eye out for each other out there" was used to argue that every pilot present at a launch site had a duty to prevent a launched-unhooked fatal accident. The pilots at the site didn't know that the pilot in question was intent on launching; they thought he was just walking over to the ramp to line up first. And then he ran off the ramp, the glider flew away and he didn't. And then we got sued.

I ask because I've seen what's happened in the past. Things we post in public forums can have consequences, and I'm trying to give you some context so you understand what's at stake. Please consider that when posting.

And meanwhile, back in reality...

Hang Gliding - 2006/01

Joe Gregor

2005/10/01 approximately 14:00 - Whitwell, Tennessee
- Bill Priday - 52-year-old male - H3 - 2005/03 - AT FL PL ST TURB
- Wills Wing Sport 2 - High Energy Tracer - Charly Insider
- SSE at 5-7 mph; nearly straight in and smooth

Witnesses state that the pilot was asked by several people just prior to launching if he needed a hang check, and he responded in the negative.

The accident pilot - who was reportedly eager to get into the air - carried his glider to the launch point and set it down tail to the wind. He walked out to launch to look at conditions and was told they were fine. At this point no one had yet launched. A call for wind dummies was made, and the meet director was assessing conditions while awaiting volunteer non-competition pilots to arrive and perform the first launches. The accident pilot checked his harness points (parachute handle, leg straps, hook knife, etc.) assiduously. At least one witness stated that the accident pilot appeared a bit nervous both in this situation and before, while setting up his glider. When he went to his glider to get ready, one pilot who had been talking with him said, "Be sure to do a hang check." The accident pilot spent some time under his glider while it was turned around. He then lifted it, turned 180 degrees to face the ramp, and was met by a side wire crew. At this point his team leader told the accident pilot, "Do a hang check." The wire crewman on the right side reported that, after subsequently setting the glider down, the accident pilot started adjusting his VG rope and talking to the crew about how to give him feedback.

The accident pilot picked up his glider and proceeded to the launch point. Several pilots present at the scene reported they checked his hang point and it looked like he was hooked in. Several pilots present at the scene reported that there were four or five other individuals who said, "Do a hang check," or "Have you done a hang check?" In no case was it reported that he responded directly.

Conditions were pronounced fine and the accident pilot cleared his launch. He launched using the grapevine grip and the glider dove as soon as he put weight on it.

And no, the motherfucker doesn't get to cite this crap and then claim that his memory of the incident was just a bit fuzzy. This was a HUGE event in the recent history of US hang gliding - not far behind Arlan Birkett / Jeremiah Thompson and not eclipsed until Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead. And he's citing it as the reason we're not allowed to discuss the biggest incident catastrophe in the history of the sport.

I would also like to add that I have had some dealings with this Tim Herr guy.

Me too. Tons. None of them direct though.

It is the opinion of several of our club members that he is a completely incompetent attorney and not a very nice person.

I'd go with that. He's brought US hang gliding to the brink of destruction by shredding fatality reports; preventing fixes from getting in place; perpetuating the most deadly equipment, standards, practices possible; getting scores of people mangled and killed.

Also, Tim Herr is NOT A PILOT.

Very few people in hang gliding are.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2015/12/09 20:16:42 UTC

Herr doesn't fly and if he did I don't know if that would make him a better attorney.

In regards to Mark I have to say that I was strongly against many of his ideas and rulings over the years, I thought we gave away the farm to pgers and thought the process of opening enrollment was terrible. But the results turned out to be the better way over the long run...

Yeah, everybody's burning up the wires talking about how great things are turning out for us.

...and Mark himself has proven to be very knowledgeable...

That puts him in a class with...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...a hard worker and advocate of the sport of free flight.

Suck my dick, Dennis.

At this time and place hacking at each other will only lead to a bad end.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32673
This is terrible

Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 17:42:41 UTC

This is not going to end well for us...

Just my 2 cents.

We get what we pay for.

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/12/10 06:33:33 UTC

Actually he was a H3, but he's been inactive for a few years and is getting back into it again. He hasn't had his rating reissued yet, so he shows up as H0 in the database, but he started flying back in 1988. He's on the Ed Levin site committee in the SF Bay area and involved with the local club. He'd be flying more if he wasn't buried with trying to get us through this insurance crisis.

Actually he was a H3, but he's been inactive for a few years...

Meaning he wasn't maintaining his membership / paying his dues. 'Cause that's all ya need to do to maintain u$hPa pilot currency and keep your rating intact.

...and is getting back into it again.

Where and how? A Bay Area former Three with no rating. What's he doing? Starting back at a thirty foot bunny hill under the supervision of a Basic Instructor and working up to fifty feet?

He hasn't had his rating reissued yet...

Why not? I haven't flown for over six years now but I'd have zero trouble hopping on a T2C and putting it through one hundred percent of all the tasks required for my Four and all of my merit badges.

...so he shows up as H0 in the database...

Bullshit. Here's how he shows up in the database:

Timothy Herr - San Jose - 48274 - Pilot - Exp: 2016/01/01

Not on H nor a 0 to be seen anywhere. If he's any kind of pilot how do we know it's not PG?

And here's how I show up in the database:

Tad Eareckson - 32674 - H4 - 1991/12/17 - Santos Mendoza - AT FL PA VA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - Exp: 2009/08/31

So I only get my record wiped if I go back into your shit organization? What's the "thinking" behind that, Mark?

...but he started flying back in 1988.

When and why did he stop?

He's on the Ed Levin site committee in the SF Bay area and involved with the local club.

THIS:

http://sonomawingsbb.yuku.com/topic/5825/4144-Review
4144 Review

Eric Beckman - 2015/09/26 21:49

I do, however, find Tad Eareckson's rant disingenuous at best and in general utterly dishonest when looked at in the light of serious intellectual discussion. While aero-towing a hang glider has risks and skill requirements different from those associated with purely foot-launched flight, the actual record of aero-toewing contradicts one of his first premises in the following: "Flights are typically conducted in which the pilot has no reasonable expectation of being able to remain on tow or separate from it, as the situation may dictate, or maintain safe and effective control of the glider." This just doesn't pan out in the light of reality.

Most hang gliding competitions in the U.S. are now being conducted via aero-tow with hundreds of successful launches in the strongest conditions of the day. Yes, accidents still happen just like they do in typical foot-launch competitions, but not in any statistically different numbers or with any greater level of injury or fatality. OK, maybe using competitions as the benchmark is unfair, since pilots will be assumed to have higher skills as a base-line. Even so, there does not appear to be any real analysis which supports Mr. Eareckson's premise (or his "manifesto," as he calls it).

Thankfully, freedom of speech gives Mr. Eareckson the opportunity to rant all he wants in any venue he chooses to exploit. Let's hope it leads to some honest level-headed discussion and analysis to improve free flight safety in general and especially in regards to aero-towing.

local club?

He'd be flying more if he wasn't buried with trying to get us through this insurance crisis.

- When did this insurance crisis start and how long before it was he not flying?
- You mean the one he put us in with his sleazy and incompetent counsel of shredding all crash reports and torpedoing all fixes?

Hey Mark...

What do you think an insurance company officer thinks when he reads something like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

Was your insurance company on board with that or was that all Tim and you BOD motherfuckers thinking it was a really great idea?

http://www.ushpa.aero/aboutus.asp
USHPA - About the Association

Mission Statement

USHPA's mission is to ensure the future of free flight.

The association will pursue its mission through:

F. Safety. USHPA will steadily foster a culture of safety.

You're gonna steadily foster a culture of safety without ever determining and specifying what's safe and what isn't?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/31 03:10:32 UTC

I'm not either, so I rely on the advice I get from people who are.

So are all lawyers on the same page with this? What's the sample size you're looking at? One?

Let's say all lawyers ARE on the same page with this? Does that mean they're right, that relying on their advice will be the best possible strategy for the long term health of the sport and national organization, that their advice should automatically supersede any opposing positions people who fly hang gliders might take?

Good idea, Mark. Let's hand control of the whole fuckin' planet over to lawyers. What could be the possible negative consequences.

Based on our past experience, comments in club forums and venues like this one can and will be cited in court.

- So we should probably be saying that the guy was talking about suicide twenty minutes before launch but everybody thought he was joking.

- And all of those citations will, obviously, work to the detriment of u$hPa. Nothing said in any of these discussions can be of any possible use in u$hPa's defense or to discredit totally illegitimate plaintiff claims and actions. All bad stuff with respect to both the short and long terms. Seems to me that an entity which WASN'T a sleazy criminally negligent piece o' shit would ENCOURAGE open dialog in order to be able to bury inappropriate and out of context citations by money grubbing plaintiffs and their attorneys.

As an example, a comment as innocuous as "Let's all keep an eye out for each other out there" was used to argue that every pilot present at a launch site had a duty to prevent a launched-unhooked fatal accident.

- OK then. Let's pass an SOP mandating that anybody who keeps an eye out for anybody is subject to a rating revocation. That should make the insurance companies really happy.

- Aren't we supposed to be doing that anyway?

Every time somebody's coming in on final there's always a minimum of twenty pairs of eyes glued on him hoping for a whack. And except for the one time out of ten when there isn't a whack or bonk there will be a dozen pages worth of advice on transition altitude, hand positioning, flare timing.

What if we encouraged pilots to keep eyes on each other when they're preparing to run off cliffs? If we outlawed foot landings the LZ would be really boring and people might be inclined to pay more attention to the other end of the flight. Wouldn't we get more bang for the buck if we had everybody looking at suspension and for the hook-in checks mandated for every flight for every rating?

If one single motherfucker had bothered to actually look at Bill Priday's suspension or insist on compliance with u$hPa's hook-in check regulation... Funny I've never heard any of you u$hPa shits or your corporate attorney saying anything like that.

The pilots at the site didn't know that the pilot in question was intent on launching; they thought he was just walking over to the ramp to line up first.

- Bullshit.

- Guess that's also what was going on with Kunio Yoshimura and everyone else who's ever run off a ramp without a glider too, huh Mark? None of the pilots at the sites ever know that the soon-to-be ex pilots are intent on launching. They all think they're just walking over to the ramp to line up first.

- So what's your objection to the Aussie Method?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=924
Tragedy at Team Challenge

Davis Straub - 2005/10/01 23:12:07 UTC

Well, very simply we could make a new rule for competition. If you are seen in your harness but not hooked into your glider you are automatically disqualified.

How come there's no mention of it in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ
Pre Flight Safety for Hang Gliding - Revision

In loving memory of William F. Priday, 1952 - 2005.

And then he ran off the ramp, the glider flew away and he didn't. And then we got sued.

And after Bill had had the benefit of exceptionally knowledgeable instruction from Steve Wendt, u$hPa's 2004 Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year, the guy who would three years later be recognized with u$hPa's NAA Safety Award, shortly after the keenly intellectual instructor whom Steve had also signed off dove his tandem glider and passenger into the powerlines while dangling from the basetube at Coronet Peak. Fuck those people. You give them the best of the best and they're still not happy.

Do you ever recognize exceptionally knowledgeable instructors with Instructor of the Year and NAA Safety Awards posthumously? If so I'd like to nominate Kelly Harrison for both for 2015 to help Arys Moorhead's family fully appreciate the quality of instruction their eleven-year-old was receiving on his tandem instructional flight.

I ask because I've seen what's happened in the past. Things we post in public forums can have consequences...

- All negative for u$hPa, of course, because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

I would LOVE to not have to think that way, but every time a legal threat arises, it reminds me that we have a very dysfunctional legal system in this country (note: not a "justice" system...there's little justice involved) and we have to recognize that reality and deal with it.

... we have a very dysfunctional legal system in this country which always dysfunctions in favor of the grossly illegitimate claims made against u$hPa.

- Really? I post things on a public forum - speculation, the ratings information we can sometimes pull before you motherfuckers can get it shredded, quotes from posts that get deleted from other forums, stills from videos that get deleted... This stuff pops up pretty prominently in Google search results. Think any of it has had consequences?

...and I'm trying to give you some context so you understand what's at stake.

Thanks. I really appreciate the encouragement.

Please consider that when posting.

Most assuredly.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/12 06:56:36 UTC

A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:

Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.

You motherfuckers DID make things unpleasant for me and turned decades of investment in qualifications and equipment to dust for making true statements to the FAA from your own archives. And I hope I've had some significant part in repaying you a thousandfold. And I hope I can continue plugging away until you motherfuckers are totally bankrupted and cease to exist in any recognizable form.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Yes, such comments can be refuted. All I'm asking is that folks be sensitive to the fact that what you say here is in public, and it can be taken and used in ways that you do not expect.

Probably shouldn't talk about ANYTHING related to hang gliding then, right Mark? 'Cause we might say something today that would be applicable to a double fatal taking out an eleven year old kid that happens tomorrow and might be used in ways that we don't expect. Like we could say that a two-string release is a cheap piece o' shit with zilch load capacity that has no place in solo, let alone tandem, with respect to Mission Soaring Center's state-of-the-art equipment. And that could be taken by Arys Moorhead's family's attorney and used in ways we didn't expect.

We have been generally successful at containing risk...

Is that what your instructional programs do? Teach pilots how to be generally successful at containing risk? "Don't bother doing the preflight sidewire stomp test, just fly the glider as gently as possible until you get up to solid parachute altitude." When I fly, motherfucker, I don't CONTAIN risk - I ELIMINATE it wherever possible.

...and fighting lawsuits.

See above.

It costs money and effort...

See above.

...and we try hard not to have things happen which result in lawsuits in the first place.

As long as it doesn't involve ELIMINATING risks with solid procedures, equipment, training. 'Cause if we did that it would just open us up to more lawsuits 'cause plaintiffs attorneys would be making the points that the solid procedures, equipment, training should've been in place decades before the latest incidents.

That's why we have a waiver, for example.

FUCK YEAH! A *WAIVER*! What better mechanism for containing risk and minimizing things happening which would likely result in lawsuits.

It's a contract that says you won't sue USHPA, other pilots, landowners, government agencies and so on. Despite that waiver, sometimes people file lawsuits anyway.

Aw shit. Sounds to me like you need to ramp up your risk containment program and get a better waiver written.

Sometimes we get sued for things that are only vaguely related to us.

Like an eleven year old kid getting smashed into a dry lakebed in the course of one of our tandem instructional flights.

All of these require legal defense, and failing to defend even a ridiculous claim....

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png

...is likely to result in a default judgment against us. All of that defense costs money and time, and we try not to incur more of it if we can avoid it.

I'd be more than happy helping you to write u$hPa Waiver 2.0. I could chair a committee of the best waiver writers this sport has to offer.

If we were not generally successful in having lawsuits dismissed early, before they get really expensive, we wouldn't be here talking about USHPA at all.

And probably won't be for much longer anyway.

What we hope is that our insurance will be used for its intended purpose, the compensation of third-parties who are genuinely damaged by the actions of our members.

Rather than first and second parties who've belatedly realized the outrageousness of the extents to which they'd been fucked over by u$hPa.

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death.

Sounds like you've got a pretty good waiver already. Really amazing when you consider that it's just one page. Can't really understand why you need instructional programs and flight ops SOPs on top of it.

We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be.

Like some asshole instructor having trained you to go upright and to the control tubes no later than the beginning of final.

We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

And if we don't like it and don't live out in the desert somewhere we don't get to fly and can go fuck ourselves.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport.

As defined by the US monopoly that has total control over aerotowing and near all of the sites in reasonable proximity to population centers.

We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety.

But we're gonna make you buckle on a helmet if you clip in at the setup area, mandate pilot rated Tow Techs and observers for surface towing, and allow tugs to violate the crap out of u$hPa aerotowing SOPs and FAA aerotowing regulations with their tow mast breakaway protectors.

We need to see and avoid all other pilots...

- Not much problem there. 99 percent of them are total assholes I'd walk around if I saw them bleeding to death in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

- And we need to see them through our sails and avoid them when we're thermalling up and they're above and behind us and either oblivious or refusing to yield right of way. If they precipitate a midair and fly away unscathed while we go down in flames we need to understand that it was our fault for not seeing and avoiding another pilot and no one else's.

...avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying.

Can you repeat those last two? I'm having a bit of trouble grasping those concepts.

If someone doesn't agree with those principles...

...he can go fuck himself 'cause we have monopoly control over this sport.

...then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

And won't be. Love Mark's definition of our sport or leave it - asshole.

Hey Mark...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

If even the most exceptionally knowledgeable, keenly intellectual, eminently qualified fucking geniuses amongst us have absolutely no clue about what went wrong in the fatal inconvenience of a top notch, pro toad tandem aerotow instructor then how is it possible for any of us muppets to agree (via the waiver) that we:
- are personally and individually responsible for our own safety
- agree in advance that, if we have an accident and get hurt, it is solely our own fault
- fully understand and accept these things

Aren't you asking one hundred percent of us to lie in signing the waiver? And if we're all lying in signing the waiver then:
- of just how much value should our signatures be considered?
- what do you think we'll be doing in terms of addressing the actual deadly problems in the sport?

And THIS:

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/31 03:10:32 UTC

The pilots at the site didn't know that the pilot in question was intent on launching; they thought he was just walking over to the ramp to line up first. And then he ran off the ramp, the glider flew away and he didn't.

is a flat out outrageous lie. And Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt was flat out outrageously lying when he certified Bill Priday as having complied with u$hPa's hook-in check requirement for all flights for all three of his ratings. So don't bother criticizing anyone for violating his sacred word of honor by suing in spite of having signed your bullshit waiver.