instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[<BS>]

Doug Hildreth - 1991/03

1990/03/29 - Brad Anderson - 24 - Novice - Flight Designs Javelin - platform tow - McMinnville, Oregon - head injury, ruptured thoracic aorta

"Strong novice" pilot with a lot of flying and some truck tow experience and instructors present launched and rose to forty to fifty feet. Pushed out hard enough to release and continued to push out after release. Whip stalled. Hit at a relatively low speed but head first. Died instantly.

Just push out hard enough to release and then discontinue pushing out after release - Doug's hands free release.

[Tad Eareckson]

I need to believe that Doug was just relaying the crap he was being fed without really scrutinizing it. I need to believe that in the distant past there were one or two people in the most powerful hang gliding organization on the planet with more than trace elements worth of integrity.

[<BS>]

Evidence of just how insidious it is - using a weak link as a release.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah. Of course the Voight/Rooney instant hands free release is intended to be used in a low level aerotow lockout when you're steeply banked. The focal point of the safe towing system tends to be useless on a payout system so you need to use a Birrenator...



...to very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for that form of towing. Same pilot input though... Push out with both hands if the glider isn't nosing away from the tow and keep both on the basetube as you fly away and prepare to land. But then, of course, rotate up to the control tubes to minimize the possibity of going in headfirst if your flare timing's off.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34134
Unintended consequences

jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 04:32:55 UTC

Lucky, Thanks for your reply. The instructor might not have known I have towed to 800ft. with Sac. Hg.

Well then... Good on him for having erred on the side of lowness and slowness.

I can fly a glider at speed.

Many people can. That's why you most always see pro toads and foot landers with the bar stuffed as far back as they're able to get it.

George starts you off on the training hill with the condor then down sizes gliders as skills progress.

Downsizes? Any thoughts regarding the glider on which Damien Banevicius was killed?

Once he's confident you can control the wing he starts towing.

'Cause once he sees you controlling the wing with TWO hands it's a no brainer that you'll be able to fight a lockout with one hand while easily reaching your release with the other.

I am addicted to flight.

Good. Now see what you can do in the way of becoming addicted to controlling the flight at all times - in particular during critical situations.

Felt good to fly again, I didn't know if I still wanted to fly, but my dream is to fly Hat Creek then someday fly my home Indian Valley. Thanks for the welcome back. Jim P.S. I know the Midwest has no hills per se and I can see where a scooter tow would be a good training aid.

Nah. Just join the US Hawks and drive to the Owens whenever ya need a fix.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34140
USHPA

jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 00:49:05 UTC

What does the USHPA do when an accident is reported?

Identifies the cause, shreds the report, redoubles its efforts to prevent the fix from being implemented and silence reformers.

Ryan Voight - 2016/03/07 01:48:42 UTC

https://airs.ushpa.aero/

PS It's never too late to report an accident... and doing so may very well help save someone from suffering a similar fate! Please consider taking a few minutes to do this and make the sport BETTER than it was yesterday!

Yeah. This might help us gain some insights regarding the advisability of towing hang gliding students low a half mile per hour over stall speed. And if we reach some kind of meaningful consensus we could put out an advisory in the Members Only section and maybe cut last year's fatality rate by as much as thirty percent.

Suck my dick, Ryan.

CAL - 2016/03/07 19:06:14 UTC
Ogden

what happened happened, Ryan has always been a great contributor to Hg.org, and has always been very good at helping with problems a pilot is dealing with, since i have seen AIRTHUG show up on this form, i have been on the form more often, because i know i can trust his advice and ready to learn from it.

look how well he answered the question that was asked on this thread, i would love to further the learning and continue to see AIRTHUG in the future!

Now that we don't have Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to tell us how well he has things sussed out and what his opinions are.

Boy am I glad I don't have any endorsements that read like that. (Ya know you're not supposed to drink too much water with that much salt in it, right?)

Ryan Voight - 2016/03/07 19:08:58 UTC

NO. I am not chuckling that you had an accident.

I did get a chuckle when you said (in another thread) that low and slow scooter towing was dangerous, and that another operation that pulls you much higher much faster is safer.

Perception is reality, and while one is generally FAR safer than the other... sure the safer one can be done poorly, and the risky one can be done safe enough...

No shit, Ryan... We can get slammed in AS A CONSEQUENCE OF being low and slow or DESPITE BEING high and fast. But let's default to low and slow 'cause that SOUNDS safer. And ties it nicely to the Hewett based crap upon which hang glider towing religion is based - you can't get into too much trouble with light, zero, instantly fully eliminated tow tension / thrust.

But generally speaking... you have that perfectly backwards...

Yeah, you're only allowed to start thinking of high and fast as safe after Ryan or one of his cronies anoints you with a Hang Three.

...and that made me chuckle.

Your chuckling makes me wanna beat your face to a pulp. One of Voight Hang Gliding Enterprises' spinoff operations just killed Tomas at the beginning of last month doing to him pretty much the same thing that Larry did to Jim. What unmitigated GALL.

But that's probably a bit off topic?

Not at all. The foundation of the sport is being low and half a mile per hour over stall as much as possible. Why else would we be putting students up in forced upright training harnesses and teaching Threes in short clinics how to fly pro toad with the glider trimmed at full stuff?

2016/03/07 20:46:32 UTC - 1 thumb up - Christopher LeFay

Keep it up, Christopher.

jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 20:29:07 UTC

In my opinion the quicker you get away from the ground the less chanceof hitting it.

Yeah, but if you take off at Mach 5 you'll slam into the 914 hogwash, your Rooney Link will do what it must to keep your wings from being torn off, and you'll hit the ground because of your crappy foot landing skills.

Mavi ,I'm not on crack, my job is zero tolerance although I would like to smoke some weed.

Just stay on The Jack Show and drink the Kool-Aid.

You guys get pissed off when someone wants to know what USHPA does...

Like the Mafia, you mean?

I'm new to the sport I want to know.

Make that connection and a lot of things will start falling in place for you. One predatory criminal organization is gonna behave pretty much like any other.

I would like to thank the pilots that wished me well, thank you. For some people its about $, for me its about flying.

It's the people who care about the money who are in control of this sport and your flying. That's EXACTLY what got your neck broken.

jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 20:45:19 UTC

Ryan in one of your posts you say scooter towing is much safer than George Hamiltons method, I disagree. George Hamilton cares about peoples safety, some people get pissed off that they just can't start flying. You should actually check him out he's great.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/03/07 21:07:11 UTC

While I can't speak for everybody...

Course not. You're not a tug pilot. But at least you can speak for yourself on the Jack and Davis Shows. 'Cause you ARE an Industry operative and cocksucker.

I reckon nobody cares for half-assed attempts to misunderstand with an aim of making an illegitimate point; you would be wrong to confuse that with being hostile to apprehending the actions of USHPA. Presuming good faith on your part, I would have expected a far different reply to Ryan's initial response to your lead post.

Do you understand what happens to accident reports now? Historically, accident reports were disseminated; now they are collated, digested, and anonymized before being disseminated.

Decimated. By Privileged Information Decimators like u$hPa cocksucker-in-good-standing Jim Gaar.

Has your question been answered? Was it ever important- or has this all been more in the interest of drama?

Get fucked, Christopher.

Ryan in one of your posts you say scooter towing is much safer than George Hamiltons method, I disagree.

Jimmy, "I disagree" is inadequate response to the many contradicting reasons given you elsewhere. It's a meaningless, unqualified negation.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

Ok, I'm tired of this.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

Well, not meaningless- it is a proclamation that you refuse to entertain reason.

Glenn Zapien - 2016/03/07 21:13:24 UTC

Mavi do you ever shut the fuck up??

Gawd. Even from him.

2016/03/07 21:16:10 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rcpilot
2016/03/07 22:26:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rolla Manning
2016/03/07 21:22:41 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher LeFay
2016/03/08 00:27:18 UTC - Sink This! -- Brad Barkley

Christopher LeFay - 2016/03/07 21:22:15 UTC

True to form; I've come to expect nothing better. Thankfully, an outlier in the hang gliding community, united in comradery despite differences. I hope you experience it someday- it's a better place.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 14:21:38 UTC

But what we have in excess here on the Org is generally referred to as a mutual masturbation society. That's where pilots get together and sit around and just jack each other off. That's what I see here in spades.

2016/03/08 00:27:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brad Barkley
2016/03/07 21:52:34 UTC - 2 thumbs up - Dennis Wood
2016/03/07 22:27:04 UTC - Sink This! -- Rolla Manning

[<BS>]

The focal point of the safe towing system tends to be useless on a payout system so you need to use a Birrenator...

I had missed that. Was there a suggestion that it needed to be adjusted? Pilot-less glider towing technology.

[Tad Eareckson]

No. And here's what we had in the magazine to discuss the second two dozen year old baby they killed that season for the exact same reason fourteen weeks later:

Dave Broyles - 1990/11
Allen, Texas

As a pilot who learned to hang glide under tow back in 1972, and who wrote a major article on towing in the May and June 1977 issues of Hang Gliding, I believe my credentials are in order for commenting on Brad Lindsay's article on towing (September 1990 issue, page 17).

I think Lindsay's article was to the point on some issues and totally off base on others. As he states, this article is based on his experiences. I don't believe that his article is totally representative of what other experienced tow people are doing. There is nothing wrong with this, except that I have found some people think that because the article was published in Hang Gliding magazine that Brad's opinion is the USHGA stance on towing. It is not. Insofar as I know, the USHGA has no official stance on towing at this time. If it did, I don't believe that it would necessarily agree with that of Brad Lindsay.

Brad said in his article that it was prompted by the fatality at Hobbs. Brad left Hobbs soon after Eric Aasletten was killed. I investigated the accident and supplied the accident report on which the comments by Doug Hildreth were based. This doesn't make me an authority on the reasons for Eric's death. There were too many unanswered questions about the accident as I will mention later in this letter. Thus, some of the conclusions Brad makes in his article may be incorrect. I don't need to repeat the findings of all of the problems which may have been at the root of Eric's death. I believe the primary cause to be an invisible dust devil which pitched up Eric's glider just as he released at launch. This problem must be considered in any tow situation which has strong thermal activity, with or without associated strong winds. Unless the possible consequences of encountering such turbulence is made extremely clear, it is liable to happen again.

The North Texas Hang Gliding Association met on October 5 and discussed Lindsay's article. Between us we have a bunch of towing experience of all types. We have five tow rigs represented in the club, three private and two club owned. Two are ATOL and three are trailer rigs. We tow a lot. We came to a consensus about a number of things that directly dealt with Brad's article.

1) The weak link breaking strength should be between 100% and 150% of the combined weight of the glider and pilot (the gross load) being towed, but each pilot should be totally responsible for his own weak link.

2) The height of the basetube mount off the ground on the tow rig is not an issue at all, that is, trailer rigs are not less safe than truck rigs with the glider mounted higher (above the truck bed).

3) We believe that Brad's opinion about bounce-proofing control bar mounts has some merit. We, in effect, adopted Brad's recommendation.

The club also decided on some other issues which will be presented to the USHGA towing safety committee which I will not cover here, but I will go on to cover the reasons we disagree with some of Brad's article.

First and foremost, we believe that the weak link should be weak enough to protect the glider against structural failure and weak enough so that a weak link break will not cause a dangerous reaction of the glider during the course of a normal tow, but no weaker. In the opinion of the great majority of our club members, a light weak link break is as likely to endanger the pilot as to help him.

I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline (see "Crooked, Tight and Low," October issue). The pilot must always take full responsibility for his own safety.

At first, I personally had questions about launching from a trailer rig. I wasn't worried about needing aerobatic skills because of the nearness of the basetube to the ground prior to launch. I was worried about turbulence behind the tow truck. My worries have been eliminated because trailer launching has proved itself. The vast majority of towing in our club is done from trailer rigs. The average height of the basetube mount on the trailer rigs is 24" from the ground. We have had a multitude of weak link breaks, a few early launches, etc., and have seen no safety problem even remotely related to the basetube mount height. In fact, when a weak link break occurs, the glider ends up just as high in the air as from a launch from above the truck bed. I have launched with no towline attached, a number of times and at varying speeds from my trailer rig, and have always easily been able to land on my feet. I let one inexperienced pilot with not very great flying skills launch from my trailer rig without a tow rope about 20 times. He was always able to land on his feet, even though he had wheels on his glider. As it turns out, launching at too slow a speed is easier and safer to fly out of than a weak link break at a higher speed. The nature of a weak link break on launch, or a launch with no tow rope attached at normal launch speed, is such that even with a glider trimmed to launch flat, the glider goes up much higher that it would with a tow rope on it, and in a nose-high attitude. The pilot must have proper pitch control to be safe under such circumstances, but the basetube mount height doesn't seem to be a factor.

Stopping the tow vehicle in front of the pilot in case of a weak link break or early release is dangerous no matter what the height of the basetube mount. The driver should be trained not to stop suddenly unless a specific command is given, whether launching a glider or transporting one.

On rough surfaces the ride on a trailer rig is much rougher than on a pickup. Brad's suggestion on bounce protection would definitely improve safety when towing on a rough surface. As a group, the NTHGA was not excited about Brad's recommendation of handles on the tow rig for the pilot to hold onto. Our experience doesn't indicate that the handles serve a useful purpose, and may in fact be dangerous.

I believe that any 1/4" or less tow rope which has adequate wear resistance and breaking strength is perfectly safe. I recognize the advantages of smaller rope, and in fact, I use 1/8" braided polyester line to obtain higher tows with less necessary tow pressure. But I don't believe that smaller line diameter line is required for safety.

Yes, I believe as Brad Lindsay says, that in severe conditions it is probably dangerous for the tow release to be attached to the pilot's wrist. Eric Aasletten may have experienced an auto-release because the release line was attached to his wrist. It is only a theory, however. No one knows exactly what happened. Although I was involved in the rescue efforts, I never had the opportunity to inspect the release line, or its placement. It is entirely possible that in the emergency situation, Eric decided to release and fly the glider out of trouble. I saw the glider do a hammerhead stall which might have been caused by an attempt on the part of the pilot to try to wingover to get his nose down safely.

As Brad says a shorter release line is appropriate for instruction. I believe that a beginner to towing may benefit from having a release line attached to each wrist, so that if he or she gets too far off too either side an auto-release occurs. But, in addition, a newcomer to towing should be taught in the early morning or late evening to avoid turbulence, with a qualified observer riding the tow rig with a hook knife in hand.

There have been two towing fatalities this year. Superficially, they seem very similar. Both were immediately after launch and I know the Hobbs fatality was from a truck-mounted tow system with the basetube mount above the truck bed. I think the Oregon one was also. I think the root cause of each was entirely different. One was condition related, and the other was probably pilot error. Each had a number of contributing factors; if any one were eliminated the accident might have been prevented. The really important thing is that we at least learn from these accidents and try our best to prevent others.

Personally, I am paying close attention to the way everyone is doing everything in towing, and I will continue to change my ways as I see better ways to tow safely.

It's watered down, misleading, ass covering CRAP. And this is what they had on the COVER of that issue:

COVER: Climbing out under tow at the first Hobbs, NM Hang Gliding Festival. Photo by Steve Hines. See story on page 42.

Before I started really figuring out how this sport works I was STUNNED by the STUPIDITY of putting that on the cover. Fully understanding how this sport works now it would've been stunning if they HADN'T put that picture on the cover. "Nah, there's nothing wrong with any of the ways we do things. Maybe autoreleased, maybe panicked and deliberately released and popped the nose. Maybe beef up the weak link if you feel like it but not too much or the inconvenience will be difficult to deal with when it increases the safety of the towing operation."

Totally calculated. Jerry Forberger is u$hPa / Wills Wing operative SCUM.

Bill Priday skips the u$hPa mandated hook-in check and runs off the cliff at Whitwell without his glider:

- publish a magazine article stating that whatever procedure anyone likes is OK

- dedicate a safety video in his loving memory - from people who never met him - to checking safety rings and doing hang checks in the setup area

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34140
USHPA

Ryan Voight - 2016/03/07 22:40:48 UTC

I do know George, and he is great. Never said otherwise?

I dunno... You're about to massively flip-flop on everything else you've ever stood for to the hilt.

What you are experiencing is one of the primary dangers in hang gliding (and in life). FEAR is not rational.

Right...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC

Nail on the head Brian!

The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.

Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not.

FEAR is not rational. Hundreds of millions of years of evolution has gotten things totally backwards. When we're eighty feet up in a tree on a six inch thick healthy limb overhanging a crocodile infested river feeling fairly comfortable we should climb down and to a three inch thick dead limb extending over the water and climb out until we're scared shitless. At that point our ability to reason will tell us we're dead centered in the Cone of Safety.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Davis Dead-On Straub will, of course, stay up on the slightly stronger eight inch limb because they've all been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

In this example, you think getting pulled higher faster is safer, because you get farther from the ground sooner.

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation. Wether you chose to adjust is then up to you.

Think about that.

But not too hard.

Would you rather fall from 2 ft or 20 ft... or 200 ft...

Yes Ryan. We will be FALLING. Our wings will suddenly cease having the ability to generate lift. It's only when we're being sucked up into the bottom of a cumulonimbus cloud that our gliders won't be falling and we can't get them to fall. And hell, even if our wings WERE generating lift our irrational FEAR would undoubtedly compel us to fly away from the Happy Acres putting green and into the powerlines. Hang gliding... Hard to ever go wrong with lotsa altitude above you, runway behind you, spark plugs not firing.

Higher is safer? Not necessarily.

No. Look at all the people we've had killed since the beginning of last year. All of them died at 150 feet or above. Think of the lives we could save if we kept hang gliders within a hundred feet of the surface at all times.

When is it not safer? When you're in too much of a hurry to get there!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34134
Unintended consequences

jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 04:32:55 UTC

The instructor might not have known I have towed to 800ft. with Sac. Hg. I can fly a glider at speed. George starts you off on the training hill with the condor then down sizes gliders as skills progress. Once he's confident you can control the wing he starts towing.

Ryan Voight - 2016/03/07 22:40:48 UTC

I do know George, and he is great. Never said otherwise?

But George qualifying him for eight hundred and putting him up to eight hundred isn't good enough for Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight...

George Hamilton - California - 41065 - H4 - 1990/08/08 - J. Anderson - AT FL PL ST TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST

The asshole who mushed him into a stalled lockout at twenty feet and broke his neck to the tune of $34K was the conservative instructor...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...doing everything right.

In the case of towing, getting higher faster means greater line tension and higher tow forces. With the increase in tow forces, the faster things can go wrong.

Really makes ya wonder why anybody's using 914s to pull hang gliders - 'specially Twos. Also really makes ya wonder about the work involved in shredding all those fatality reports.

Also, higher tow pressures means...

...that the towline and bridles are pushing the glider backwards really fast.

...climbing with a very high nose attitude, due to the "artificial gravity" of the tow line.

Just fly pro toad and let go of the basetube...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

In pro towing, you're it.
The tug will "want" to pull you through the bar.
If you let it, you're essentially pulling in.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4778/39004826790_90f4fd60c9_o.jpg


But not for too long...

So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.

You don't wanna tuck the glider - even if that DOES get you lower and safer fast. You could break it negative. The results are never pretty.

If that were to disappear... like in a weaklink brake...

...because of too much pressure in the brake system...

...or the tow operator slips and stops pulling abruptly...

Fixes whatever's going on up there by giving you the rope.

...or the winch's motor stalls, dies, seizes...

That's a...



...BAD thing?

...or the line snags coming off the drum...

Wouldn't that INCREASE the "pressure"?

Here Jim... We've got a video of a line dig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKVsHAxRAcE


Big fuckin' deal. And that's not even down at twenty feet where things are still reasonably safe. (They only do dangerous stuff at dangerous altitudes - the double negatives make it a net positive.)

...or maybe you just decide to release while still at this nose-high attitude...

Like pushing out hard enough to release. 'Cause you're a total fucking moron. 'Cause your irrational FEAR will tell you not to and your rational REASON will tell you that that's exactly the right thing to do.

And we haven't even mentioned the Birrenator...



...yet 'cause we're still selling it as a more reliable pitch and lockout protector than the Voight/Rooney instant hands free release that killed Zack Marzec a bit over three years ago.

Hang gliders can AND HAVE... fairly recently... tumbled or otherwise broken from this exact scenario.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

Basically what happens is, when the tension disappears, the glider climbs to a deep stall, the nose drops severely... and gathers rotational inertia, with very little airspeed for the glider's pitch stability systems to damp the rotation, and it goes past-center and tumbles.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Swift - 2013/02/27 14:22:49 UTC

Zack wasn't "sitting on the couch" when a cheap piece of string made the decision to dump him at the worst possible time.

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.

We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

Higher tow pressures also increase the likelihood or at least the severity of a lockout situation, too...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Fortunately, we have good defenses against lockouts. These defenses include limiting the tow forces by using weak links and pressure gauges...

So... I'm not saying anything about George not being great... but in general terms, here you are a new guy-

Here being Jack's Living Room - the hang gliding Center of the Universe for valuable opinions. So fuck anything and everything that your u$hPa certified Advanced Instructor taught you and qualified you for.

...posting that towing higher faster is safer than low & slow scooter towing... and in almost all cases, that's exactly opposite of true.

And Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight has all the data that nobody else gets to see to back that statement up. Just ask him to not show it to you and he won't. And the fact that he won't is indisputable proof that it's just gotta be really good. What possible other reason could he have for not showing it to you?

It does sound like you may have had a bad experience scooter towing...

Nah.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1640/25512208342_d5ec076a38_o.jpg


Looks to me like he had a total fucking blast. Compare/Contrast with Paul Edwards:



http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

Risk is just part of the attraction. Actually getting your neck broken and being put out of action for a couple years is the Mother of All Orgasms times a thousand.

...possibly received poor instruction (hard to know, only hearing your side of the story- no offense)...

Which tells us absolutely everything we need to know. Like the way there's no doubt whatsoever who fucked the pooch in the Ken Muscio midair fatality 'cause of the detailed account Stan Albright hasn't ever given us. Or the deafening silence we've heard from your US Hang Gliding, Inc. buddies on the Tomas Banevicius negligent homicide.

...but whatever happened- we are ALL sorry that you got hurt.

And whatever happened...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...we are ALL 100.00 percent certain that whatever happened was 100.00 percent your fault - asshole. 'Cause anyone who doesn't agree that it was 100.00 percent your fault doesn't need to (and WON'T) be in OUR sport - as determined by u$hPa's pigfucking non pilot lawyer, the only individual who's gonna emerge from this sewer bulging with money and smelling like a fuckin' rose.

And I'm glad and impressed you've got the stick-with-it-ness to come back and get after it again, that's awesome!

Yeah. Get back in there and do some more of that low, slow, safe stuff where you won't be able to hurt yourself falling from twenty feet or under.

But please... do your best to be careful what you say... and realize that as a new guy, you don't know what you don't know yet

Yeah, be REAL CAREFUL what you say. If you wanna find out what happens if you exercise First Amendment freedoms in US free flight talk to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...Bob Kuczewski and T** at K*** S******.

That's what instructors are for!

Yeah. Taking control of the sport and keeping you under their thumbs.

2016/03/07 22:54:21 UTC - 3 thumbs up - gluesniffer
2016/03/07 22:59:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

That's what got you permanently banned from Kite Strings - 2016/03/08 08:09:30 UTC - motherfucker. LONG overdue. I know that means absolutely nothing to you but Garrett Speeter is at the lowest possible end of the quality range over here. Below, as far as I'm concerned. But I guess we can tolerate a relatively minor crap load.

[<BS>]

Would you mind explaining the relevant stupidity of the Hobbs photo? Is it that it's an example of the same setup that was used by Eric or more?

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah. It's totally exactly what had just killed Brad and Eric.

If you scroll back up a bit you can very clearly see the lanyard running from the release mechanism - probably a three-string, bridled to his hips - to his right wrist.

- Good news... You just hafta let go of the basetube to blow the release in a lockout - rather than letting go and hunting a bit for the lanyard.

- Bad news... If the glider pitches up (or a student fails to hold it down enough) the lanyard WILL be pulled and you WILL suddenly find yourself standing on your tail to some degree with the wind very quiet. If it's a strong thermal blast or dust devil (Eric did actually get hit by an invisible dust devil) and you're not high enough to deal with the whipstall and tumble you're dead.

Then Peter's gotta go and invent this:



atrocity to make your death less iffy. Here's its implementation:

020-10819
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/16052643454_ef408619ca_o.png


at Pat Devevan's state-of-the-art operation.

Little like flying around with a pistol clamped to a downtube, rigged to fire whenever your glider starts climbing hard, and aimed where your head will be at the moment.

And both expressions of the suicide lanyard are still in use. There was documentation of Carlos Weill popping off at Manquin maybe a dozen years ago but Capitol's database crashed and the douchebag host who was supposed to have been doing frequent backups hadn't been - not even INfrequent backups.