Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post7494.html#p7494

This thing of beauty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E


was one of my earlier stills projects. Way too stingy with the bandwidth - so I decided to go towards the other extreme. The whole roller coaster ride - oblivious fuckin' tug driver at one end, dope on a rope on the other, placebo release, same weak link many of us typical Quest pro toads are now happy with...

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Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post7478.html#p7478

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow

Jim Rooney - 2013/12/21 21:51:46 UTC

I'm not familiar with your release system... you say your primary release is on your shoulder?
How would this connect to the upper bridal? Or does it release at the tow rope connection?
I hope it's one of those two. I've heard of people towing without upper releases before. I can not stress how dangerous that is.
In any event, I'd say it's demonstrably inadequate. You may wish to consider something else.

Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".

I'm not familiar with your release system...

Really?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow

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But nine months and eight days ago you said:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31392
Peter Holloway on aerotowing

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/13 08:24:27 UTC

I like this guy

Real straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter.
Bloody good.

And Peter Fucking Holloway is very fucking obviously putting his victims up on the same cheap useless crap:

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as a release "system". So how can you talk about him driving home the things that actually matter when you have no fuckin' clue what he's using for a release system? Is it that the release system doesn't actually matter? Seems to be...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

...a bit of a contradiction there. If the Holloway Release System isn't homemade funky shit can you give us an example of something that is? By definition, in addition to observation...

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...it doesn't work.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

It's not being used everywhere. Only the Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey stuff that Davis...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...is happy with works and is used everywhere.

Also a bit odd that as straight forward as Peter was in driving home the things that actually matter he never once makes the slightest mention of the standard aerotow weak link - the focal point of one's safe towing system - even though we see two standard aerotow weak link breaks:

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in the course of the video.

(What did you think of the consistency there, Jim? The first one blows when the glider is in pretty much perfect condition and the second one holds until the glider's totally locked out and tracking almost perpendicular to the tug.)

How come all he mentions is...

Peter Holloway - 2013/02/04 10:05 UTC

So you could get screaming down the runway, almost taking off, and the tug could have an engine failure or the rope would break and you could roll to a stop hanging onto this quite safely.

...a rope break - and he makes it sound like that's a bad thing? Think the fact that he posted a bit over a day after the Zack Marzec fatality had anything to do with the blindingly conspicuous omission?

I've heard of people towing without upper releases before. I can not stress how dangerous that is.

Try. More or less than a towing with a Tad-O-Link?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

No tug pilots will permit anyone to fly with anything heavier than 130 pound Greenspot but they WILL let people fly with...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC4tdHAzh_M

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...bottom end releases? Maybe you need to start stressing how dangerous that is to some of your asshole colleagues.

Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".

An actual "weak" link is...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Plain and simple. Janni, 1G, but please stay.

...one G, plain and simple, right Jim? And using a one G weak link you could use a crane to have your glider slowly lifted up by its nose to 150 feet, right? That's the definition of one G, right? So how can you use a one G weak link to ensure you don't end up in THIS:

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situation? Let's make the glider the nice standard 260 pound glider for which the Quest Link was optimized. You wanna tell me that that glider couldn't possibly be on tow at that attitude with a mostly upward 260 pound pull?

Let's go back to the crane. You're hanging by your nose 150 feet off the deck by your Rooney Link. Bounce things a little bit. What WILL...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...happen?

How 'bout we do a little experiment? You get hauled up on your crane to 150 feet by your 1.0 G Rooney Link and I get hauled up on my crane to 150 feet by my 1.5 G Tad-O-Link. (Hope I get to watch you piss yourself before you get splattered.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
The Oz Report - View Forum - Hang Gliding

Replies to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41420
Can one tumble a Falcon?

Ryan Voight - 2015/03/04 15:13:22 UTC

Can one tumble a Falcon?

Twenty-two.

Replies to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41253
Mark Knight - a tribute

Angelo Mantas - 2015/02/23 21:40:46 UTC

What was the conclusion of the accident report?

Zero.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC

Brian... yep... the issue of the tug's link is a big one and you've summed it up nicely.
The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.

Here's the other thing missing from this conversation, and it's not a quick soundbite one.
There is more to the bar than simply strength.
See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record. It's a high bar and you can't improve one aspect at the expense of an other. (you don't get to lower my safety margins for any reason)

The first one we've finally covered is the tug's link. Here's some others...

Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured. It's a common and standard material. You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is. This seems trivial, but it's again one of those things that looks small, but isn't.

Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.

I know when you hook up what you've got. It's assumed that you know what it is, so what? I want to know. Why? Cuz I'm on the other end of the damn rope! You don't get to make decisions about MY safety. You don't get to make decisions about how far I'm taking you into harms way. It's just not your call.

With greenspun, I know what you've got. We don't have to have a conversation about if I'm willing to tow you or not. If you roll up with something else, that conversation happens. I might decide that I'm willing to tow you, but that conversation happens. You are not the only one involved here.

So if you want to use something that "scales with weight", you need to find a common and quality controlled manufactured material that displays what it is.

Why?
You're asking a tow pilot to pull you.
You're asking someone else to join you in a dangerous environment.
You don't get to make decisions for me.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

What I said was that by using a weaklink that's stronger than the tug's, you're effectively removing your weaklink. Big difference.

Yes, this is what tandems do... because they must. A tandem with a single weaklink doesn't even leave the ground (it's been tested). You on the other hand have a choice.

By using a 4 strand weaklink, the tandem flies with the tug's weaklink as "the weaklink". Both the tug pilot and tandem pilot understand this and agree to it. I personally tow behind Zach more in a weekend than most (any?) of you tow in a year. We both have a clear understanding of the added risk we incur.

A tandem with a four strand weaklink is not equivalent to a solo with a 4 strand btw. Tandems are way heavier than even the fattest of the fatboys out there. The principle of removing the glider weaklink is the same, but the tug's weaklink is effectively stronger with a solo. Weren't you the one advocating "scaling" weaklinks?... this concept should make perfect sense to you then.

That cover it?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E

Jim Rooney - 2013/12/21 21:51:46 UTC

Thanks for posting this.
I'm glad you're ok.

It's far too easy to forget how serious all this stuff is.
So many "classic" errors.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen this scenario play out, in all it's different forms.

The trouble is, we've all heard the siren's song of thermals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

MrSkytime

As I was the tug pilot on this tow, my personal comments are -

1. There was no thermal surge felt by me prior to the advent of the pilot's lock-out. I've watched the video in slow motion and if you check the position of the pilot's spreader bar on his hang loop (in the foreground) relative to the position of the trike (in the background), there is not a sudden deviation between the two prior to the lock-out.

It makes us do very irrational things and take very serious risks that we know we shouldn't.

I'm concerned that your tow pilot would agree to tow you in mid day conditions...

See above.

...after a year break from even finishing the course.
I'm also concerned that he allowed you to stay on tow so long and so far out of position.

I'm not familiar with your release system... you say your primary release is on your shoulder?
How would this connect to the upper bridal? Or does it release at the tow rope connection?
I hope it's one of those two. I've heard of people towing without upper releases before. I can not stress how dangerous that is.
In any event, I'd say it's demonstrably inadequate. You may wish to consider something else.

Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".

Ya know what you SHOULD be CONCERNED about - motherfucker?

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It recently dawned on me that this is a major smoking gun. Doesn't get much worse than this. If this happens low he's fuckin' toast - PERIOD. Same way THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

shitheaded little cocksucking buddy of yours is - 'cept even deader.

The only way it gets worse is if you rocket up and your Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation by...

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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

...whipstalling you into a tumble such that, even if you have a couple grand to work with, your survival is one hundred percent dependent upon getting a 'chute out, open, and stable in time.

Lameroo shot that video at 30 fps. The numbers above the stills are:
- seconds and frames - 5308 - 53 seconds, 08 out of 30 frames
- increase in seconds and frames between stills
- cumulative increase in seconds and frames between first and current stills
- increase in seconds between stills
- cumulative increase in seconds between first and current stills

So that whole sequence transpires in the space of two and a third seconds. Safety link pop to totally upside down in a second and a half.

So when his one and a half G Tad-O-Link blows he's pulling pretty much straight down on the tug's tow point, right? And the force has been going up...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

...EXPONENTIALLY, right?

So how come this trike - which gives its driver much crappier control authority than a Dragonfly - ISN'T THE TINIEST BIT FAZED by what's going on with that rope?

We can see the shadow of the trike in the last frame - 1.83 seconds after the Tad-O-Link pop - and he's cruising along just fine like nothing happened. (And we can also see the glider's shadow - goddam slit just to the right of the top of the right downtube.)

And here's the entire detailed statement from the tug driver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

MrSkytime

As I was the tug pilot on this tow, my personal comments are -

1. There was no thermal surge felt by me prior to the advent of the pilot's lock-out. I've watched the video in slow motion and if you check the position of the pilot's spreader bar on his hang loop (in the foreground) relative to the position of the trike (in the background), there is not a sudden deviation between the two prior to the lock-out.

2. I checked the pilot's station shortly after take-off and once again during the tow prior to the lock-out (It was within acceptable limits on a thermic day for me to continue the tow). Most of my time is spend checking my airspeed (for safe flying) and keeping my input to the minimum. I would certainly check the glider's station on entering and departing a thermal.

3. It is NOT the tug pilot's duty to adjust his flying and correct the pilot's station relative to the tow, but in thermal conditions you do adjust your climb rate. If you get tug pilot and hang gliding pilot trying to correct for each other, you're just going to exacerbate the situation.

4. The lock-out is progressive, as a result of the pilot not correcting his glider's turn to the left. Given this, there was no pitch up or pitch down movement in the trike that would result in me re-checking the pilot's station and giving him the rope. I had just checked his station relative to the tug.

5. A lack of authoritative roll input to correct the turn to the left exacerbated the situation.

6. The pilot was looking towards the direction of the turn, not looking at the trike and his station to it.

7. Human factor - situation awareness. This plays a big part as the pilot hadn't towed for a while and the conditions were thermic. If you've not towed for a while do it in benign conditions so that you can get used to the process again.

Doesn't seem to have been much of a near death experience for him, does it? Doesn't sound like he was even aware that there was some kind of problem going on back there until after it was over, does it?

I'm also concerned that he allowed you to stay on tow so long and so far out of position.

Doesn't sound like HE was very concerned about anything, does it. He's using and "happy with" something heavier than the deadly Tad-O-Link on his end, he's got the full capacity of the deadly Tad-O-Link pulling pretty much straight down on his derriere and appears totally oblivious to any problem.

And let's look at an extreme in the other direction - pro toad with the bar stuffed rocketing up into what will become a fatal whipstall, tailslide, and tumble the instant his Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

Doesn't sound like Mark was having much of a control problem either, does it?

The only dangers to tugs are failures of power:



(also the primary danger to...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...towed hang gliders) and control systems. You can always do something about the former and you refuse to admit you have a problem...



...with the latter. Notice neither you nor any of your asshole buddies has yet bothered to responded to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41253
Mark Knight - a tribute

Angelo Mantas - 2015/02/23 21:40:46 UTC

What was the conclusion of the accident report?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

Jim Rooney - 2007/12/13 18:07:02 UTC

Pics or it didn't happen pal.

I got the pics, motherfucker.

51-05528
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5535/11414318943_e75d3860d3_o.png


And with all the videos we have of us stupid muppets all over the sky at all extremes of attitude we don't have a single image, report, anecdote of a tug being the slightest bit control/safety compromised by an out-of-position glider - including the ones flying with the Tad-O-Links that many of us have decided we're happy with.

And we also aren't hearing much from any of you douchebag tug drivers...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

...refusing to tow Tad-O-Links. My what a difference one dead Industry pro toad can make.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E
Hang Gliding Aerotowing Lockout

MrSkytime

As I was the tug pilot on this tow, my personal comments are -

1. There was no thermal surge felt by me prior to the advent of the pilot's lock-out. I've watched the video in slow motion and if you check the position of the pilot's spreader bar on his hang loop (in the foreground) relative to the position of the trike (in the background), there is not a sudden deviation between the two prior to the lock-out.

2. I checked the pilot's station shortly after take-off and once again during the tow prior to the lock-out (It was within acceptable limits on a thermic day for me to continue the tow). Most of my time is spend checking my airspeed (for safe flying) and keeping my input to the minimum. I would certainly check the glider's station on entering and departing a thermal.

3. It is NOT the tug pilot's duty to adjust his flying and correct the pilot's station relative to the tow, but in thermal conditions you do adjust your climb rate. If you get tug pilot and hang gliding pilot trying to correct for each other, you're just going to exacerbate the situation.

4. The lock-out is progressive, as a result of the pilot not correcting his glider's turn to the left. Given this, there was no pitch up or pitch down movement in the trike that would result in me re-checking the pilot's station and giving him the rope. I had just checked his station relative to the tug.

5. A lack of authoritative roll input to correct the turn to the left exacerbated the situation.

6. The pilot was looking towards the direction of the turn, not looking at the trike and his station to it.

7. Human factor - situation awareness. This plays a big part as the pilot hadn't towed for a while and the conditions were thermic. If you've not towed for a while do it in benign conditions so that you can get used to the process again.

As I was the tug pilot on this tow...

Are you sure?

...my personal comments are -

How 'bout we get some personal comments from someone who DIDN'T almost tow a poorly trained and equipped student hang glider pilot to his death?

1. There was no thermal surge felt by me prior to the advent of the pilot's lock-out.

No shit. So did you bother to follow the discussion on the OZ Report and make that clear to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

I've watched the video in slow motion and if you check the position of the pilot's spreader bar on his hang loop (in the foreground) relative to the position of the trike (in the background), there is not a sudden deviation between the two prior to the lock-out.

- So what the fuck were you watching during the tow?

- If you check the position of the pilot's spreader bar on his hang loop (in the foreground) relative to the position of where the goddam spreader's supposed to be to function properly as a spreader...

11-02725
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8574/16621884806_32d0fa397b_o.png


...do you note any deviations?

2. I checked the pilot's station shortly after take-off and once again during the tow prior to the lock-out...

Oh. Two whole times. Two quarter second glances was way more than enough to satisfy the requirement for monitoring the plane to which you were supplying power.

(It was within acceptable limits on a thermic day for me to continue the tow).

Well yeah. He was certainly inside the confines of the Cone of Safety...

06-01602
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/11414264713_1fa67f5689_o.png

07-01815
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8664/16460414590_c74fddd83c_o.png

15-03805
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8575/16461636509_bc5610be13_o.png


...so what's the worst that could happen.

Most of my time is spend checking my airspeed...

Oh, yeah. You gotta keep your eyes glued to an airspeed indicator to make sure you're doing the right airspeed.

...(for safe flying)...

Well, you certainly had THAT:

42-05328
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png


nailed. You look perfectly safe to me.

...and keeping my input to the minimum.

Once again...

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


Great job!

I would certainly check the glider's station on entering and departing a thermal.

But since there were no thermals there was obviously little to no point in checking.

3. It is NOT the tug pilot's duty to adjust his flying and correct the pilot's station relative to the tow...

Of course not! It's in the manual. The tug's job is just to fly up to two thousand feet, wave his arm up and down, and fly back down. The idea is to make it real easy to get certified.

...but in thermal conditions you do adjust your climb rate.

And since these weren't thermal conditions there was absolutely no reason for you to adjust your climb rate.

If you get tug pilot and hang gliding pilot trying to correct for each other, you're just going to exacerbate the situation.

Well FUCK. We certainly wouldn't want to exacerbate and situations by anybody trying to correct for anybody.

4. The lock-out is progressive, as a result of the pilot not correcting his glider's turn to the left.

Yeah, you were doing everything just fine. It was just the glider guy who wasn't correcting anything.

Given this, there was no pitch up or pitch down movement in the trike that would result in me re-checking the pilot's station...

Nah, you certainly wouldn't wanna go to the trouble of shifting your gaze to the mirror for a moment if you didn't absolutely have to. (You DO have a mirror, don't you?)

...and giving him the rope.

And thereby fixing whatever was going on back there. He GOT the rope - or a section on his end anyway. Good thing y'all were nice and high at that point - wasn't it?

I had just checked his station relative to the tug.

And it was within acceptable limits on a thermic day for you to continue the tow - so you did.

5. A lack of authoritative roll input to correct the turn to the left exacerbated the situation.

So did a totally brain dead douchebag of a tug driver with no fuckin' clue as to how to safely pull a glider into the air.

6. The pilot was looking towards the direction of the turn, not looking at the trike and his station to it.

And you were looking at your goddam airspeed indicator checking your airspeed (for safe flying), keeping your input to the minimum, not looking at the glider and the trike's station to it. (I always thought a station was a place at which you assholes raised sheep.)

7. Human factor - situation awareness.

Yours was obviously beyond reproach. Let's take a few minutes to beat up on the glider guy a little more.

This plays a big part as the pilot hadn't towed for a while...

What about you? How many decades had it been since your previous pull?

...and the conditions were thermic. If you've not towed for a while do it in benign conditions so that you can get used to the process again.

So show me the part at which the thermic conditions were relevant. Everything I saw seemed smooth as glass. The only mention of thermic conditions was:

My towing inexperience caused me some indecision when the trike rose quickly in a thermal.

But you just confirmed that there was no thermal in which the trike quickly rose. The only thing that was making the trike rise quickly was a fuckin' brain dead, negligent, incompetent driver.

This:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

still holds up remarkably well over four decades later even when the bad pin man is also flying something.

44-05416
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8671/16460231198_56f40d63a2_o.png


Total fucking asshole.

This would've been a fatality if things had happened lower and this crap from MrSkytime would've been the official fatality report - that we MIGHT have gotten to see.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

michael170 - 2015/01/26 06:18:30 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 05:38:41 UTC

The glider pitched up.
The glider stalled.
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
The weak link broke.
So what?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

2015/01/26 06:28:38 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2015/01/26 07:08:06 UTC - Sink This! -- Comet
2015/03/17 13:19:58 UTC - Sink This! -- Erik Boehm

michael170 UTC - 2015/03/17 06:37:03 UTC

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

Is that still the standard, Paul? What are y'all using as the focal point of your safe towing system now? And how did 130 get to be the standard? What did it do that a non or sub standard weak link didn't?

When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack.

Oh. So his instant hands free release increased the safety of the towing operation and he just flew away!

Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled.

Really? Go figure.

He will be sorely missed.

Not for very long, huh Paulen?

2015/03/17 08:13:32 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2015/03/17 13:19:49 UTC - Sink This! -- Erik Boehm
2015/03/17 14:27:59 UTC - Sink This! -- Mike Bomstad

Hey Mike!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/26 08:33:15 UTC

Well, how about a weak link...

How about a weak link? Or a flashlight or a banana or a rubber duck?

Brad Barkley - 2015/03/17 14:19:41 UTC

Michael170, how do you know Tad? Were you a Boyscout?
-
Hang 3

2015/03/24 17:23:45 UTC - Sink This! -- Brian Scharp

Brad, where did you get to know the long time unmarried guy with no apparent social life who signed your Three? Were you a twelve year old wrestler on the school team he coached?

Boy Scout, by the way, is two words, Mister Fiction Writer.

Mike Bomstad - 2015/03/17 14:28:59 UTC

Thanks for all the negative contributions to this group michael170

And thank you for this wonderful video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c87vgq5ZFU0

11-A12819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8339/28924980016_2ba1d20ef7_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8253/28924975726_0d24a615c2_o.png
13-A14319

Mike End-Of-Story Bomstad.

Davis Straub - 2015/03/17 14:41:25 UTC

The ignore button.

And/Or the edit, move, delete, ban buttons. You and your douchebag twin Jack are really good with those.

Hey Jack Show twats... Remember THIS?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=990
Interesting article involving Davis Straub

Look what you've got now. And have fun jerking each other off while your homogenized sleaziness, cowardice, incompetence, and stupidity continues to crash the sport into oblivion.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41874
Bent Dragonfly

Davis Straub - 2015/04/04 15:06:21 UTC

Jonny has a darn hard landing

Yesterday Jonny Thompson collapsed the landing gear on one of the Quest Air Dragonflies and put the plane on its nose.

Oh my God! Is he OK?

Jonny was "okay"...

"Thank God!"

...but he is pretty sore today.

How 'bout the plane? Is its tow mast breakaway still intact?

Jonny was towing a king posted pilot...

How 'bout the glider? Did it have a kingpost too?

...south in 5 to 10 mph winds down the north south long runway when the engine coughed.

SHIT! A POWER FAILURE on TAKEOFF! That's dangerous as hell!



For the tug I mean. For the glider it's just an inconvenience which results in an increase in the safety of the towing operation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

He was drifting to the east and thought that the pilot had released behind him. He was low and attempted a 180 degree turn...

Damn! Something like that happened just south of Vegas just a week earlier.

KSNV-9-24015

...and didn't quite make it around. The pilot had not released (it in up to the tow pilot to released the towee when the tow plane has a problem)...

I thought it was up to the standard aerotow weak link.

...and Jonny felt the tug of the hang glider pilot...

What? Had the hang glider pilot had separated from the hang glider by that point?

...just when he least expected it.

I'll say. Must've been using one of those Tad-O-Links that everybody's happy with nowadays.

Coming around (I watched the whole thing), the left wheel dug into the ground and the landing gear collapsed on that side. As the wheel came down to the ground I thought that he was going to be able to do a one wheel landing as I've seen many times here, but the rod holding the wheel collapsed. The other wheel hit the ground as did the nose of the Dragonfly.

The cage around the pilot did not collapse and Jonny was immediately out of the plane and walking. I was the first one there on my bike but within a second others were there on motorized craft, including Mark Frutiger in the club car and Jim Prahl in another Dragonfly.

Jonny is quite sore but nothing was broke. He came in slow from not very high.

Russell will have the Dragonfly rebuilt over the next couple of weeks. It has already been torn down to small pieces (with two hours after the incident).

Didn't want to report on this yesterday as Jonny asked everyone not to until he spoke with Linda, his wife.

Lessee... You've got a glider that watches the Dragonfly conk out and follows it around in a descending 180 back to a crash on the runway. Great training program you've got down there - Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden. Make sure to give Paul my love and yet another apology for almost killing him and Russell with one of my Tad-O-Links.

Patrick Halfhill - 2015/04/04 17:28:02 UTC

Wow! I'm so glad Jonny and everybody is ok.

Me too. Go fuck yourself, Pat.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41874
Bent Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2015/04/05 09:41:37 UTC

Oh good. Commentary on a bent Dragonfly from a bent Dragonfly driver.

Every tug pilot's different.

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

Right.

Every situation's different.

Sometimes the tug starts going down, sometimes it starts going up, other times it just stays at the same altitude. Sometimes the tug flies worse with a glider behind it, sometimes better, other times there's no discernable difference.

Ya hafta spend many years working as a professional tug pilot to really understand all the differences and nuances.

When it comes down to brass tacks though, you better believe you're getting the rope.

OK, I'll add that to my list of profound Rooneyisms I better believe.

If then engine sputters...

Have you ever actually OWNED a tug of any description?

...and I've got time, I *might* wave you off... right before I hit my release.

- If we're at a thousand feet I *might* wave you off... right before I hit my release.
- Why bother?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction

Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC

Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

I don't really have anything against the Kotch release.
I think it's big, clunky and expensive, but I'm sure it works fine.
I'm also sure it has it's problems just like any other system. The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Your release is a mechanical thing and likely to fail. And even if it doesn't...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.

...your skill probably will. Why not just wait for your tow mast breakaway protector to kick in?

If we both drop the rope cuz we hit our releases at the same time, I couldn't care less.

I'll put that on the hard drive I maintain dedicated to the things you couldn't care less about.

Even a lost rope is so unbelievably inconsequential in a situation like that.

Please explain to me how an engine failure - which for us actual hang glider pilots is a mere inconvenience - is such a critical emergency that the loss of a 250 foot towline is unbelievably inconsequential when you're high enough to have a risk of losing a 250 foot towline.

If my engine quits, I *will* give you the rope...

As, of course, you *will*...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...to fix whatever's going on back there for us muppets.

...immediately... no questions asked.

I am SO impressed by your manly decisiveness. And your competence too. Most other tug pilots would waste critical time asking their passengers questions.

At that point, I care about one and only one thing... my ass.

Name some point at any time in the course of your vile existence - from birth on - when that HASN'T been the case.

If you're smart enough to hit your release too, well good on ya.

A muppet hang glider pilot SMART enough to hit his release when the tug stops going up? Get real, dude.

I'm hundreds of feet in front of you in a faster moving and much heavier craft.

If your 914 Dragonfly is going 35 mph what's your estimate of the glider's speed?

I've always been under the impression that it was actually the precise opposite situation...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

The glider's going MACH FIVE coming off the cart before the Dragonfly's reached takeoff speed.

I have a lot less options than you and I have much higher consequences.

- Yeah, it must be a real bitch to suddenly find yourself flying a GLIDER.

- So what kind of consequences did Mark Frutiger suffer a couple years ago while his pro toad passenger was rocketing up, experiencing the Rooney Link induced increase in the safety of the towing operation, whipstalling, and tumbling back into the runway.

It's unfortunate and I'm sorry for your luck...

Yeah, you motherfuckers don't maintain your crap engines and you're sorry for OUR "luck".

...but you're getting the rope and I won't blink twice about it.

I'd like to see you get the fucking rope, chair, needle, firing squad, whatever so I could sit back and not blink twice about it. Oh, and speaking of not blinking twice about stuff... Think John Claytor will be back for this year's ECC? Any thoughts on why his driver - possibly you - was too busy blinking to give him the rope? Or why his Rooney Link didn't break when it was supposed to?

I have no idea why this guy didn't release.

'Cause all us muppets are just too stupid and incompetent to do much of anything right - despite all the excellent training we get from all you fucking geniuses before you sign us off.

I'm betting that neither does he.

Maybe he saw an opportunity to crash a Dragonfly and took it. I dream about stuff like that three or four times a week.

I wasn't there and all I have are some internet reports so I can't really say.

- And if you HAD been there - like Jonny and Davis - you'd be able to really say.

- So what internet reports did you get that we muppets weren't privileged to? What's the GOOD information that only the cool kids share? Who are the people whose takes on this one are better than Jonny's and Davis's.

It doesn't make any sense to me though.

Holy shit! Then what chance do any of the rest of us without keen intellects have?

I'm just glad the people are fine.

Me too. I worry so much whenever a Dragonfly goes into glider mode and the glider stays in glider mode. Thank GOD they were both able to walk away from this one.

Tugs can be fixed.

Then fix the back end to the point that it's capable of safely and legally towing a solo hang glider.

Gliders can be fixed.

Yeah...

http://www.wesh.com/image/view/-/18388954/medRes/1/-/s0x7fez/-/img-Hang-Gliding-Crash.jpg


Slap a new port outboard leading edge section on that sucker and it's good to go.

Lessons can be learned but only if you're still around to learn them.

Gimme a minute so I can properly absorb the profundity of the rest of your post before working on this part.
...
OK, got it.

So what lessons were learned from Quest 2013/02/02? Are doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results? Or are we doing anything different? If we are doing something different then what is it and what's the "thinking behind it"?

And make sure you blather on with all this self aggrandizing crap about this stupid trivial incident and conspicuously ignore the double fatal from one of your professional tandem thrill ride industry...



...colleagues...



...and his eleven year old skydiving student...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7644/16353971834_15d6781e0c_o.png


...that's making national news right now. You know, the one in Vegas...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

Please, no speculation

We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.

...u$hPa has sent a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) to investigate.

Seriously Jim...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

The nation needs your keen intellect now like it never has before and - hopefully - never will again.

P.S. Funny we haven't heard anything from Steve Wendt on this one. Truck tow guy...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one who signed off your instructor rating.

[Tad Eareckson]

United States Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
USHPA Approved Launch Sites for Tandem Training Flights.
Hang Gliding Tandem Launch Site Characteristics

Tow Launch sites:

1. There must be ample room straight ahead and on either side of the tow road or runway to accommodate a landing from an early release or weak link break from an altitude of 200 feet or less.

2. For launches originating from a launch dolly, the launch area must be sufficiently flat to minimize the potential for the cart to significantly veer off course. There must be additional distance compared to typical solo tow requirements to accommodate the slower, longer rollout during the launch.

3. There should be sufficient wind streamers, windsocks and/or other indicators present to afford the instructor ample information about the strength, direction and condition of the wind prior to launch.

There must be ample room straight ahead and on either side of the tow road or runway to accommodate a landing from an early release or weak link break from an altitude of 200 feet or less.

And obviously it will be a LANDING. No fuckin' way will you need ample room straight ahead and on either side of the tow road or runway to accommodate a...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...CRASH from an early release or weak link break from an altitude of 200 feet or less.

There must be additional distance compared to typical solo tow requirements to accommodate the slower, longer rollout during the launch.

Yeah. Tandems launch slower than solos.

There should be sufficient wind streamers, windsocks and/or other indicators present to afford the instructor ample information about the strength, direction and condition of the wind prior to launch.

There SHOULD. But you don't HAVE TO - just a suggestion...

Doug Hildreth - 1990/09

1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - Hobbs

Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Home-made ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.

Comment: Pilot error in terms of pushing out too much too early or in terms of a purposeful release could not be determined. The reporter was certain he saw a dust devil begin on the edge of the runway in a location that would support an invisible dust devil on the runway crossing the path of the truck and glider.

Recommendation of the reporter: If towing is done in gusty, turbulent or thermal conditions, a row of wind flags should be on each side of the runway at 50-75 foot intervals to warn of invisible turbulence. 1) Pilots should attach their release line in such a way that there will not be an auto release. 2) Weak links should be strong enough so that breaks right after launch will not occur. 3) Pilots should be trained not to release in a pitch-up situation until the glider is stabilized. 4) Test each tow rig regularly to assure that line tension just after launch is below 150-200 pounds.

http://ozreport.com/4.010
Oz Nats - bad day in the tow paddock

Davis Straub - 2000/01/12

Mike Nooy takes off to our left, and he launches right into a dust devil. Like I said, they've been coming in every ten minutes or so, and you can't see them as the paddock is pretty green.

On static tow, if you are not pulling in quite strongly, your nose can go straight up. We've been watching this happen to all sorts of pilots around us especially in this high wind. Problem is your weaklink can snap and then you are stalled big time. Not a pleasant situation when you are low.

The best idea is to keep running, keep the nose down, and then power through the first hundred feet or so of altitude, before letting the nose out a bit. You want to tell your driver what the wind speed is before you start your tow, so they can know not to accelerate too quickly. They might have to stop or drastically slow down immediately after you get off the ground to keep the weaklink from breaking.

Mike takes off and of course his nose is high, which has been quite common today. He's yawing to the right and left very quickly back and forth as the dust devil is right under him. His glider then yaws very fast and hard to the left and immediately dives very hard into the ground from twenty or thirty feet. It is obvious as soon as the glider whips to the left that he is in very bad trouble.

I can't remember what hits first, Mike or his left wing, but it is a crushing impact. He is obviously not moving. Almost immediately Dr. James Freeman, a meet organizer and a physician, races to the lane, and gets Mike stabilized. An ambulance has also been called within less than a minute. Towing stops.

The ambulance takes about ten minutes or so to get out to the paddock from the town a ways away. James administers some shots, we log roll Mike onto the back plate, and then lift him onto the gurney and into the ambulance. He's on his way to the local hospital with James with him. He's unconscious, and has suffered extensive head injuries. His full-face helmet is broken on the right side where the jaw protector meets the head protection element. His legs are shaking.

While a number of hang glider pilots saw all or part of Mike's launch, there can still be some interpretation as to what happened, and how we can learn from it. There was plenty of warning about dust devils on this day, and there hadn't been nearly as many of these on previous days. It was a case of bad luck launching into the dust devil, but there were probably conditions that Mike could have chosen that would have reduced the chance of a dust devil.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

http://www.dailyunion.com/news/article_3186ac10-4975-11e4-ad71-001a4bcf6878.html
Cold Spring hang-gliding crash claims Minnesotan - Daily Jefferson County Union: News

Cold Spring hang-gliding crash claims Minnesotan

Ryan Whisner, Union regional editor
2014/10/01 09:14 | Updated: 2014/10/02 08:48

At about 100 feet, Julik's glider caught a wind shear, which caused the glider to pitch to one side and take a nosedive. That led to the aircraft violently overturning, driving the pilot into the ground.

"One of our guys out here loves to say, 'if we could see the wind, we would probably never fly," Lange said. "In this particular case, it would have been nice to see that because it didn't matter what your skill level was, when you get into something that can toss you around like a leaf, it's pretty sad."

Julik's death marked the second fatal incident that could be recalled as having occurred at Twin Oaks in its more than two decades of operation.

The prior incident is believed to have occurred around 2009 and involved a hang glider getting into a similar situation as Julik, only at the beginning of his flight as it was being towed.

"Occasionally something happens, the wind changes, switches, turns, rotates, and if you happen to be unfortunate enough to be right there ...," Lange said. "Even airlines run into severe turbulence sometimes.

Lange said that in this case, it was the unseen, but aptly named, dust devil that was to blame.

NOBODY's getting crashed, killed as consequences of inadequate emergency landing area or sideways sloping runways - so let's make MANDATORY regulations concerning those issues.

People are ACTUALLY getting killed by ACTUAL - as well as FAKE - invisible dust devils coming through the runway but... Windsocks, streamers... You should probably use 'em, dude. But, hey, just a recommendation. After all, it's YOUR LIFE - and YOUR "STUDENT". ( )

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching.

Without total pieces o' shit like you and your Aerotow Industry buddies controlling it, yeah, it could be.

I would certainly like to make it safer.

Me too. Shoot Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Jim Gaar, Steve Wendt, Steve Kroop, Steve Wendt, Mitch Shipley, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Brad Gryder, Bart Weghorst, Adam Elchin, Paul Tjaden, Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, and yourself.

What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.

See above. That would automatically take care of 95 percent of the problems.

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer (again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).

- Who's "we"? Any total fuckin' douchebag whom you allow to post on your sewer?
- Tell me about the "AGREEMENT" "WE" reached in the adoption of the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link.

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Hahahaha.
That seriously made me chuckle.

I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

As I said, I've been through this a million freaking times.
Which is ok.
I don't mind clarifying it for people.

What I do mind is that when there is disagreement, it is generally NOT me that is wrong. Yet people persist in telling me bla bla bla. I don't care if people disagree with me... cuz I know they're wrong. It makes me sad.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC

You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
We have discussed this many times in person. We are not in disagreement.

If you can not see that we're in agreement, perhaps I can clear things up for you. Or Davis can.
Either way, you're the one creating the drama.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 05:35:17 UTC

So as much as you want to jump up and down and rave about how it's "Your choice!!!!"... too bad. It's not. You're on my rope.

What was the date on which "WE" all got together and AGREED that the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link was the safest fishing line for all gliders on the face of the planet?

How was it that "WE" were able to "AGREE" that the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link was the safest fishing line for all gliders on the face of the planet when "WE" weren't able to "AGREE" on the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...purpose of the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link or...

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

...its average breaking strength?

And exactly what experience did you have somewhere between 2013/03/06 and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

... 2014/09/01 that caused you to decide you were happier with 200 than the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link you and your asshole buddies were so happy with that you forced everybody on two continents to use it for a couple decades? Got a video?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

Was there some kind of "AGREEMENT" obtained to put this into practice? Were any of you assholes at least able to "AGREE" on the average breaking strength of a loop of 200 pound Cortland and, if so, how was it that you were able to do within the space of a year or so after never once in the course of decades having been able to reach an "AGREEMENT" around your dump about what the average breaking strength of a loop of 130 was?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence. Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.

Also his reasoning is circular and when cornered breaks out in outrageous jumps, pulling dead rabbits from flatten hats.

But on the reasonable level I think that we can all agree that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces (and therefore hurting the pilot).

Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.

I'll check my weaklinks once again, to see if they are about 1.5 G.

Now EVERYBODY obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence and NOBODY gives a flying fuck about protecting the tug pilot. And Tad was obviously completely lacking in social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence and not giving a flying fuck about protecting the tug when none of that was cool. I was ahead of the curve by four years. Maybe you stupid twats should start paying more attention to people obviously completely lacking social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence and also obviously having other mental health issues. And maybe a lot less...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

...to stupid twats who had had whatever they'd started out with in the way of brains damaged to the point of total shit before they'd gotten through junior high.

P.S. This topic picked up over a thousand hits (48805-47764=1041) between this and the previous post.)