Nice catch. (Right up there with "Good point.")Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
There ya go... The two points on the good and evil sides of the Infallible Weak Link war. (And we know how it's gonna turn out as far as Tad Eareckson, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, and 130 pound Greenspot are concerned.)Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
Third:Jim Rooney - 2013/02/08 18:40:12 UTC
aaaaaaaand... here we go again.
I myself am totally satisfied that my good friend Zach was toast the moment the carabiner was clipped onto his pro toad bridle, that there was absolutely nothing we could have done differently to have achieved a different result. So, obviously, there's no possibility of anyone having anything of the least value to contribute here.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/09 18:30:26 UTC
Because it's one of those crusty old debates that HGs love to go round and round with.
It's like uttering the word "wheels"... the conversation instantly turns into the great wheel debate.
Sorry for the interruption.
Please continue with the speculation.
- For the very first time ever in the course of his miserable existence.I'll be over here, doing something productive.
...all the other doing of productive things you're always doing when you've become too disgusted at the speculation to continue participating in the discussions? If you're not so arrogant as to think that your precious little (unidentified) ideas are going to magically (or logically) revolutionize the industry and there are far smarter (unidentified) people than you (and obviously anybody else at or below your rank) working this out (despite the fact that...Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC
I don't advocate anything.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
...most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out already then how can you POSSIBLY be OVER THERE doing ANYTHING productive? As far as I can tell the most productive thing it's possible for you to do is NOTHING. If I've got that wrong then I'd really appreciate it if you could straighten me out a bit.Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
Fifth:Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC
Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.
One could write a book about that one. Here goes...Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC
Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
- Why apologize? You're obviously totally in the right here.Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals.
Maybe give a grassroots approach to the problem a shot and see if you get different results.Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals.
How sad. Zach was such a really nice person, hard not to like... and hard not to like instantly. And he only had ONE *FRIEND* to show up at his funeral, dig a grave of sufficient depth, and drag and drop the casket into place. Oh well, I guess if had to be just one person Zach would've been honored to know it was you - his only true friend. And with only a short time to go until he decided to become an asshole. Made it in just under the wire.I just buried my friend...
You just said you just buried your friend. How can one seize the moment if the moment's already over? The Westboro Baptist Church seizes the moments of military soldiers to picket with "Thank God for dead soldiers.", "You're going to Hell.", and "God hates fags." signs. Doesn't Deltaman leave something to be desired in the moment seizing department? Or do you have some other concept of what a "moment" is?...and you're seizing the moment...
How do you know it's bullshit? We have no fuckin' clue what went wrong, now over three years later we're not an inch closer to knowing the truth, the people actually working on things are putting out EXACTLY the same top quality equipment and procedures they were the early afternoon of 2013/02/02... If we've done everything we can think of and our kid's still dying how could it hurt to try a prayer? Or a flashlight or a banana or a rubber duck?...to preach your bullshit?
WE HAVE A *FUNERAL* GOING ON!!!!!!!! SHOW SOME RESPECT!!!!!!!! ASSWIPE!!!!!!!!GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
- So you're saying that there's really not all that much difference between them preaching their bullshit during the moment of the funeral or any other moment at any other time years before after the funeral.I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
...a "TYPICAL" day? Can you tell me what the downside of this pompus asswipe preaching his bullshit on THAT normal day would've been? Would have you put your dear friend Zach up on the exact same equipment hoping for polar opposite results? Nobody's ever breathed as single syllable suggesting that he so much as twitched a finger wrong - or should've aborted the tow before plowing into the monster thermal at fifty feet, the Dragonfly equipment back to the tow ring was obviously not a factor in any way, so what else is there we could've altered about the flight to stand a chance of getting different results? Or...Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind.
...would the completely untested and very experimental new gear which would have very likely failed in a new and unforeseen way as it tried its damnedest to kill Zack in the midday conditions due to the huge chasm issue of which he lacked adequate appreciation?Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Sixth:Miguel - 2013/02/11 22:25:23 UTC
Why not refute Deltaman's points. Tune him up, so to speak. Grade school name calling makes you look like a grade schooler.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.
Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.
Yeah. All by yourself 'cause he only had you as a friend 'cause you were the only person good enough to be his friend. You told us all that already. Between all the hospital visiting and friend burying you do I have no freakin' clue how you find the time to educate all us muppets on confirmation bias.I just buried my friend...
Not really. We'd much rather continue seeing variations of:...and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/08 18:40:12 UTC
aaaaaaaand... here we go again.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/09 18:30:26 UTC
Because it's one of those crusty old debates that HGs love to go round and round with.
It's like uttering the word "wheels"... the conversation instantly turns into the great wheel debate.
Sorry for the interruption.
Please continue with the speculation.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC
Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC
Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
Sounds like...Deltaman loves his mouth release.
...Dave Gills does too. (You Hiih Gland Aerosports guys weren't able to get him straight on this?)Dave Gills - 2016/02/04 20:04:15 UTC
My skiing buddy used to crank his binding adjustment all the way down.
He used to say...
"The only way your skies should come off is when the ski patrol removes them, before they load you on the helicopter."
I feel that way about weak links.
(I trust my life to my mouth release)
...a million of your comp pilots do.Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
Oh. So you've gone ahead with becoming an asshole. Good move. I hope the hormone treatments and surgeries weren't too problematic and that we muppets will be able to adjust to a transformation of that magnitude before two many months have gone by.BFD
- Really? Sounds like you're not "refuting" them in very effective manners. Sounds like you haven't gotten through to one single individual on either of these issues because, if you had, you'd undoubtedly have a muppet or two coming to your aid. And you don't even have any of your professional pilot colleagues giving you any covering fire.I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments.
We applauded his efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weak link material at the 2008 Forbes Flatlands the first time. And I know 'cause I was one of the ones applauding them. What's stopping us from applauding his efforts to once again improve the safety of aerotowing by using the same better weak link material now? Just imagine all the applauding we'd most likely do.Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
That's OK. You've said you get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments and we believe you get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. If we can't take you at your word there's really no point in continuing this discussion.Dig through the forums if you want that.
I've had Jehovah's Witnesses coming to the door for years. And I'm still not a Jehovah's witness. (Go figure.) Maybe you could get together with a few of them and figure out all the stuff you're doing that isn't working and...I've been doing it for years...
...try doing something differently. There's a possibility you could get different results. And since you're having ZERO success with what you've been doing that would necessarily mean BETTER results.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg...but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff.
...fanatic fringe, threat to the safety of our flight ops... Dude, we're definitely talkin' ISIS here. We need to get Drumpf into office ASAP so's he can start authorizing drone strikes on them and...Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments.
...their related people and material. You've been fuckin' around with these assholes for YEARS and doing nothing but losing ground. And we just can't sustain the casualty rates we've been taking as a consequence of all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Time for some serious Dark Side action.No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Yeah, let's hear a definition of "Confirmation Bias" from some shithead who thinks that a forward pull on a pro toad makes the glider tuck, launch carts weigh several hundred pounds, and gliders get airborne at Mach 5 behind tugs that haven't gotten up to takeoff speed.This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory...
It's actually bass-ackwards? 'Cause back-asswards ain't all that clever. One's ass does tend to be pointing backwards most of the time. Of course if one has his head way the fuck up his ass all the time the whole relationship structure tends to be a bit confusing.it's back-asswards. Guess what?
Hey EASY, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere.
Aren't you worried about your rantings masking the few people who are actually working on things? As soon as they finish actually working on one of their things they'll start using it and it won't work because we're not using it everywhere. This is a virtual death sentence.It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.
But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
Nope. In the Mid Atlantic it came, flourished for a while, then went extinct. Sure don't meet MY definition of new - or, for that matter, reality. Also... 'Cause we're no longer using it everywhere we can safely concluded that the shit doesn't work.AT isn't new.
Fuck yeah. And the equipment is all the same as or worse than it was decades ago when this shit first started going in the air behind Dragonflies - perfect in every way. Makes ya wonder a wee bit why all that stuff was being worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows while it was working so perfectly the whole time. Seems to me that effort would've been better spent designing and engineering stronger backup loops.This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows.
Yeah, I love all these egomaniacs who jump up and decide that somebody who managed the engineering which put a rover on Mars would be incapable of putting a mechanism on a stupid fucking hang glider which could safely and reliably let go of a string when a human pulls something on a basetube - if he flies a hang glider on the weekend.I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things...
Why would anybody bother to think of this stuff? What is there to think about?...as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
If my steering wheel isn't locking up or falling off three or four times on the way to the grocery store why should I be thinking about it?Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC
I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.
Yeah, probably a good idea to change the subject now. You've already painted yourself into enough corners in the course of about thirteen sentences to get a merely partial moron through the next thousand years.But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Yeah! Let's get this guy! He's FRENCH! Cheese eating surrender monkey. And he's come ALONE. Trying to shoehorn his pet little project into a DISCUSSION. Even after Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has told him to go fuck himself. Ban him, Davis. Ban him before he SPECULATES anymore and gets to the root of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's anger. Possibly to the root of somebody else's anger too.Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion.
Why do you want him to take his snake oil and go elsewhere? You've gotten tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. We've dug through the forums to confirm that. You've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. If he takes his snake oil and goes elsewhere he's gonna peddle more of his religious beliefs and win over more converts. And you'll get even more tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. This is doing the same thing over and over again getting crappy results with a multiplication factor.Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.
You're not appreciating how fast and furious this effect can happen. It's EXPONENTIAL in nature. Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... It's four times the "bad"... then 16... It gets dramatic fast.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Big mistake. You've got him alone now. You're always sucking Davis's dick so you'll have all the covering fire you could hope for. Take this motherfucker down while you have the chance.Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.
...none of you motherfuckers is ever gonna fly in my neck of the woods again.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
Is that the face they want on their product?Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC
Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
Pre-Marzec hang gliding's most tightly guarded secret was how the determination that 130 pound precision fishing line would be able to establish the miraculously long and highly successful track record it would have was worked out. Post-Marzec hang gliding's most tightly guarded secrets are what fishing line is being used and why. Like flippin' a freakin' switch.Davis Straub - 2012/05/13 22:13:01 UTC
Spiders. Tired of them. No need to have outside indexes of the forum. Now those spiders are just knocking on the door. They can't get in (now).
Yeah, that's one thing you flight park assholes are really good at.Jim Rooney - 2016/03/18 08:44:50 UTC
Queenstown
Preach it Bart!
Hard to go wrong dittoing with Mark (G. Forbes).Ditto with Mark (G. Forbes) too btw.
Point out some differences.Any criticism is about the system, not you.
Try "I don't have a dog in this FIGHT..." You'll sound a bit less like the asshole you are.I've been lurking mostly and will continue to do so as I don't have a dog in this race anymore.
I recall that it got pretty rarely heard a wee bit over three years ago when your boyfriend locked down all the Zack Marzec threads to save the tiny bit that was left of your ass.I'm just here to be a voice that's very rarely heard...
Hopefully we'll hear about you from a New Zealand mainstream news service again - and for the last time....because once we leave, you don't hear about us.
We are the one's WHAT who've left?We are the one's who've left.
That's OK. With a bit of research and analysis we're usually able to put a pretty good picture together.You don't hear about why we left... because we're gone.
Damn near everything...I've always been amazed at...
Some day I should put together a collection of all the things you're always AMAZED by.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
Doesn't hold a fucking candle to HAVING one - 'specially one who's dangling from the basetube diving your tandem ride into the powerlines....how the USHPA (membership and organization) can talk out one side of it's mouth about "supporting instructors" and how they're the "lifeblood" of the sport, yet their policies constantly make is such a god aweful pain in the ass to be one.
When people talk about improving things, all they really talk about is...
...doubling up the magic fishing line so it doesn't WORK six times in a row in light morning conditions to inconvenience one's face back into the runway.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
Course not......jacking up the requirements. That doesn't actually improve things.
If ya wanna actually improve things you jack the requirements down to "Guidelines" so's ya can do and not do whatever the fuck ya feel like.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC
Oh, btw... before you go there, cuz it is where you're headed... please note the word "Guidelines".
As I said.
Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.
Sadly...
...people who persist it telling you bla bla bla are GENERALLY wrong. And when they're GENERALLY right it doesn't matter.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
What I do mind is that when there is disagreement, it is generally NOT me that is wrong. Yet people persist in telling me bla bla bla. I don't care if people disagree with me... cuz I know they're wrong. It makes me sad.
...when I bring these things up, what I'm told is why things are the way they are.
Long track record.See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Proven system that works.It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
Yeah.But when you think about that... explaining why things are the way they are isn't addressing the problem... it's saying that there isn't a problem. I find it all very frustrating and backwards.
What goes around comes around.
I get it. It can be a pisser.Or more to the point, I found it all frustrating... so I left.
Lotsa people did.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
I never had the slightest doubt. 'Cept most of them are smart enough to keep their mouths tightly shut just about all the time.And there are many more like me out there.
I don't think the sport will be able to withstand many more blows like that.You just don't hear about us... because we're gone.
Microscopic compared to the pain in the ass to have one like you around in the Northern Hemisphere.So now, in addition to jacking up the requirements to become an instructor, you're heading headlong down the path of making it a financial pain in the ass to be one?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971All while claiming to "support" your instructors?
Fuck our instructors.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
Can ya ease up a bit? The list of things you find mystifying is getting a bit out of hand.I find it mystifying.
What a relief.I actually don't to tell you the truth.
Like...Your system is being built by the people running your larger schools.
...Ridgely was until the end of the 2015 season?Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
Which inevitably degenerates to pure evil when you allow parasites to embed themselves in systems with zero oversight, accountability, population control.Notice how it's not a pain for them. Notice how it is for the little guys.
This is not because they're evil, but because that's human nature.
Oh, do tell.People view things from their perspective first and foremost.
Get fucked. Your perspective was massively myopic and what you were doing was doomed from the start. Good fuckin' riddance.Oh well.
Back to lurking.
Good luck.
Jim
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
By what way? What does Tad really hafta do with any of this?Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 20:10:56 UTC
Oh, and BTW, Tad is clueless...
Whatsamattah? He identified your crap for the crap it was half a dozen years before the accepted standards and practices changed?Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/06 16:13:36 UTC
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rulesYeah, why consider glider weight at all. Next...Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
We need to codify a lower limit to give people a tool with which to protect themselves from kind of crap - which, by the way, is very much alive and well in the US too.
...as well as being a child molester...
What's your source on that, Davis? There was NEVER any finding that anything close to fitting those descriptions happened. It was fuckin' obvious that the "victim" pursued the relationship for a couple years.molest
1 assault or abuse (a person, especially a woman or child) sexually
2 pester or harass (someone), typically in an aggressive or persistent manner
Oh. So you're leveling with your readership this time. Appreciate the honesty. Just don't get carried away with it....(no kidding).
- Why does Davis NEED backing up on this? Davis has built up and maintained a sterling reputation for honesty and integrity over the decades. If the Dalai Lama had said, "Oh, and BTW, Tad is clueless as well as being a child molester (no kidding)." would you have felt the need to jump in with, "Just to back the Dalai Lama up on this, cuz the person that let's the cat out of the bag always gets flack for it..."?Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 23:12:32 UTC
Just to back Davis up on this...
- Good job, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Only two spelling botches in the sixteen word max two syllable passage....cuz the person that let's the cat out of the bag always gets flack for it...
Can you explain how that applies here? What were the facts and who was hiding them and for what purpose?Letting the cat out of the bag is a colloquialism meaning to reveal facts previously hidden.
Yeah...So we're clear as a bell on this.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.
I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?
I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.
Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.
If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
Perish the thought that we should ever be anything less clear than a bell...Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC
How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?
...on anything.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
CYMBALS CLASH! Well done, Jim. Very dramatic. Sounds like you've been dying to do that for years. Wonder why you waited until this particular moment. Had a feeling that this was massively inappropriate but the instant Davis Dead-On Straub lowered the bar another five feet...?Tad is a convicted paedophile.
Mission Accomplished, guys. Give all the lesser glider forums a model to which to aspire.Davis Straub - 2003/03/04 02:07:45 UTC
I encourage quality posts, posts that actually help the reader and would be of interest to the readers. I discourage drivel, nonsense and lazy, just hanging around, here-I-am-with-nothing-really-much-to say posts. There are other sites that encourage such behavior, this is not one of them.
The Oz Report forum is not a campfire. It is not a place to hang out with your bud and have a beer while slurring your words. It is a serious forum for pilots who wish to write cogently and engage the intellect of others.
...HOW?Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
Who said it was? In the three hours, one minute, thirty-two second gap between Davis's post and little cocksucker's, who was giving Davis any flak for "letting the cat out of the bag"? Who was doubting his integrity and word, expressing a desire for confirmation and all the details that could possibly be made available?This is not rumour...
Of course not. Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney have never once speculated about anything. Every time they don't speculate about something they get even better at not speculating. Why emphasize this point?...this is not speculation.
Almost made it through that one at an acceptable grade school grammar level. But do keep using British spellings on everything you can think to look up - "paedophile" and "rumour" within the space of five words. It makes you sound so much more intelligent than you could ever hope to be in real life.This is straight from the horses mouth...
- Asked him about WHAT? I thought there was supposed to have been a cat in a bag. Sounds to me like the cat had never been in the bag, it had been common knowledge for the past couple decades. So in your first sentence three deliberate fabrications - Davis being a person, a cat in a bag that Davis is letting out, something you pulled outta your ass about people always getting flak for letting cats outta bags.I asked him about it.
Believe it or not...
Got it, guys. You're telling the TRUTH - for something new and different. Knock yourselves out....(no kidding). / Just to back Davis up on this... / So we're clear as a bell on this. / This is not rumour... / ...this is not speculation. / Believe it or not...
Wow! That's AMAZING! I wouldn't have believed that if you hadn't told me! So how many pedophiles did you hafta interview in order to bring this earthshaking headline item to The Davis Show? Got any other interesting hobbies we don't know about?...a paedophile can have no issue with telling you this stuff as they see what they do as "normal".
But intergenerational relationships aren't "normal". Right. (Yeah Fred. After ten million years of evolution humans suddenly started behaving differently - on a global scale. Either that or they just started selectively breeding a lot more paedophiles - for want of anything better to do with their time.)Fred Bickford - 2015/09/27 16:29
There's not as many books on the subject of various forms of child abuse as there should be and its too misunderstood by society as a whole in my opinion. It's somewhat of a taboo topic generally, but at the same time recognized as an epidemic globally.
You're saying you asked me about it and I answered your questions honestly. Thank you. If I had any problems with credibility before I sure don't now. Must be why I don't hafta use up lotsa bandwidth saying:I asked him about it.
...whenever I need to get a point across....(no kidding). / Just to back Davis up on this... / So we're clear as a bell on this. / This is not rumour... / ...this is not speculation. / Believe it or not...
- I'm sorry. Horrified repulsed victim who elected to spend as much time as possible with me. Please continue.He was 30 years old when he had his 13 year old "boyfriend", as he puts it.
David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Just so you will know, blowing a launch is probably not the worst feeling in the world.
My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.
Everything turned out alright. She bruised her knee and even the glider wasn't badly hurt, but I have never posted the video on the net out of concern for the sport.
Robert V. Wills - 1975/08
1975/07/18 - Hall Brock - 12 - Brock Standard Rogallo, flying prone - Welch's Gulch, Aspen, Colorado
Fatal. Probable broken neck. Only visible injury a thigh wound. Breathed only ten seconds.
Low altitude 360, steep bank into a dive from six hundred feet.
Apparent or Probable Cause: Inexperience in doing 360's and failure to heed advice to push out more and avoid a diving spiral. Hall had done very few 360's before this and was getting into diving spirals on the second half.
Yeah, that makes sense. If I were a juror a statement like that would be plenty good enough for me to vote guilty on whatever it was you were talking about.I don't know if that's the one he got locked up for, but I know the one he got locked up for was not his last.
- You also believe that an unresisted tug pull on a pro toad can tuck the glider and launch dollies weigh several hundred pounds. So knock yourself out with what you believe.I believe the other one(s) was younger.
...because you'd oozed your way into a position in which you had power over their flying opportunities and careers and lives. But now the folk who actually know what they're talking about are losing their tow parks because they actually had no fuckin' clue what they were talking about. I seriously regret that you didn't pile on with more paedophile shit 'cause any denouncement from a THING like you is actually a point of vindication and honor.Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
- So what was your point in being the only person in the history of Hiih Gland Aerosports to delve into my rather distant past with me AT ALL? The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I've still gotta go with the mental kiddy porn angle.I didn't have the stomach to delve into further detail.
- Implying that there was some kind of connection. And not explaining why your cowardly pigfucker buddies suddenly became so deeply concerned about the wellbeing of people of varying ages a year later when I started making noises about talking to the FAA about the Rooney Links which were crashing gliders left and right and which will fatally increase the safety of the towing operation on your pro toad buddy in another year and a half.He has been banned from every flying site he's ever set foot at and some he hasn't.
so it's pretty safe to say total bullshit....(no kidding). / Just to back Davis up on this... / So we're clear as a bell on this. / This is not rumour... / ...this is not speculation. / Believe it or not...
AND YES, he is a deranged megalomaniac? Davis didn't say I was a deranged megalomaniac. Just a clueless child molester. So where'd that come from? Who is it you're backing up, agreeing with? One of your many imaginary friends whom nobody else is ever able to see or hear?And yes, he is a deranged megalomaniac.
Convicted paedophile; locked up for having a 13 year old "boyfriend", as he puts it, when he was 30 years old; doesn't fly anymore because he has nowhere to fly; banned from every flying site he's ever set foot "at" and some he hasn't; banned from just about any glider forum you wanna name; ostracized and isolated... And yet I'm obsessed with the exercise of all the power I have...megalomania
- obsession with the exercise of power, especially in the domination of others.
- delusion about one's own power or importance (typically as a symptom of manic or paranoid disorder).
...especially in the domination of others. Delusion about my own power or importance. Is there a bitter pill I can swallow to get some of these delusions? 'Cause the reality of my existence majorly sucks. Wanna get a pretty good picture of my reality?Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
- Why did you hafta put up with me?I had the displeasure of having to put up with him before he was kicked out of one of the flight parks that I was working for.
I had homemade gear with an extremely short track record, my Tad-O-Link was a lot stronger than your little faggot tow mast breakaway protector, I got to lower your safety margins, I'd have nosed you in in a New York minute if I'd gotten the chance.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
Brian... yep... the issue of the tug's link is a big one and you've summed it up nicely.
The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.
Here's the other thing missing from this conversation, and it's not a quick soundbite one.
There is more to the bar than simply strength.
See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record. It's a high bar and you can't improve one aspect at the expense of an other. (you don't get to lower my safety margins for any reason)
The first one we've finally covered is the tug's link. Here's some others...
Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured. It's a common and standard material. You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is. This seems trivial, but it's again one of those things that looks small, but isn't.
Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.
I know when you hook up what you've got. It's assumed that you know what it is, so what? I want to know. Why? Cuz I'm on the other end of the damn rope! You don't get to make decisions about MY safety. You don't get to make decisions about how far I'm taking you into harms way. It's just not your call.
With greenspun, I know what you've got. We don't have to have a conversation about if I'm willing to tow you or not. If you roll up with something else, that conversation happens. I might decide that I'm willing to tow you, but that conversation happens. You are not the only one involved here.
So if you want to use something that "scales with weight", you need to find a common and quality controlled manufactured material that displays what it is.
Why?
You're asking a tow pilot to pull you.
You're asking someone else to join you in a dangerous environment.
You don't get to make decisions for me.
To me THEN. To the Rooney Link, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Hiih Gland Aerosports NOW. And I'm pretty sure all the Highland guys have Highland logo tattoos to forever remind them of their failure and the destruction of everything they'd worked to build up for the better part of two decades.Good riddance.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230NMERider - 2012/09/25 14:21:38 UTC
But what we have in excess here on the Org is generally referred to as a mutual masturbation society. That's where pilots get together and sit around and just jack each other off. That's what I see here in spades.
Yep.Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/09 14:44:23 UTC
If you continue rubbing everyone the wrong way with your harsh, know it all tone, you are out of here.
Spring Training
2016/03/22
As the spring flying season approaches, your Accident Review Committee wants to make sure each of our pilots has our latest lessons learned and the suggested risk mitigation training ideas. The following is the text of an article printed in the March/April 2016 issue of Hang Gliding & Paragliding magazine.
Spring Training
2015 was the deadliest year that our sport of hang gliding and paragliding has seen in decades. Ten of our members died in hang gliding accidents and another ten members died in paragliding accidents.
2016 has already brought another two hang gliding fatalities.
In pursuit of USHPA's mission--to ensure the future of free flight--USHPA provides tools for pilots to assist them in assessing the dangers involved in the sport to help mitigate those dangers to a level of risk deemed acceptable to the individual pilot. One of those tools is the information provided by the Accident Reporting Committee (ARC). Its mission is to help pilots derive lessons learned from the analyses of accidents that will help them more accurately assess the risks involved in their flights and avoid similar fates.
In August 2015 the ARC notified all pilots of the troubling trend in fatalities during the period from January 2014 through August 2015. That notice recommended that pilots consider three factors when making their personal flying decisions:
(1) Personal Risk Management; (2) Complacency; and (3) Encountering Turbulence at Low Altitudes.
Since that notification in August, six more of our members have died while flying, which underscores the necessity of continuing our efforts to learn from these occurrences.
As Pilots, we celebrate the fact that, under FAA Part 103, we are relatively free of governmental regulation of our flying. We enjoy this freedom of flight because, under the national standard of care established by the FAA, "The operators [of hang gliders and paragliders] are responsible for assessing the risks involved and assuring their own personal safety." This means that when we elect to fly a hang glider or paraglider, each of us is responsible to assess the dangers involved and each of us, by law, assumes personal responsibility for his/her own safety.
The FAA has advised us that the actions of the hang gliding and paragliding community affect the direction the FAA will take in implementing future regulations and that the safety record of ultralight vehicles is the foremost factor in determining the need for further regulations.
In light of these facts, USHPA encourages and challenges each and every one of our member pilots and chapters to consider the following specific ideas on what each pilot and chapter might do, before the spring flying season, to decrease the inherent risk of accidents in our sport. Each suggestion is derived from lessons learned from our accident reports, most significantly from the investigation of fatal accidents. Let's call this "Spring Training." The intent is similar to the "Safety Stand-Downs" many professional organizations conduct following significant accident trends. Please note that some suggestions are wing-specific, while others are applicable to all flying.
Launching
Each of our flights starts with launching. During this phase of flight, the goal is to transition from not-flying, to flying, in such a way that control of the wing is maintained, ensuring a safe transition. This transition requires adding energy into the flying system. The methods and skill sets required differ, depending on the type of launch, and are executed by using the muscle memory that we each developed through repetition, as we were learned to fly.
After completing that early training and increasing our experience, we typically try to do one launch a day and stay up, soaring for as long as possible after that launch. Over the years (and perhaps decades), these launches are executed with more advanced equipment that is typically harder to launch (i.e., heavier and having higher stall speeds, more complex control input, harness' that are harder to run with, etc.). As we repeat these launches that have been executed by the muscle memory developed using our novice equipment, we can deduce why we see poor launches that are far too common even among our advanced pilots. So we have devised some Spring Training suggestions:
- Review Cliff Launch (CL) and Flat Slope Launch (FSL) techniques. They call for different requirements and actions on how to add flying energy to the system to get the wing flying, including:
- Controlling the Angle Of Attack (AOA) during the walk, jog, and run that builds up flying air speed during a FSL, before attempting to have the wing support the full weight of the flying system.
- Maintaining a low AOA after your feet leave the ground during a CL that allows the air speed to build up to a fast enough flying speed to support the full wing loading of the pilot when leaving the ground.
- Conduct discussions on:
- The importance of wire crew / launch assistant choices (i.e., experienced pilots) and briefings that include precisely what communications and actions are expected.
- Evaluation of wind, thermal cycle, and turbulence before launching.
- The fact that it is always OK to back off launch and re-group, or "bag it," if things aren't feeling right. The mountain will be there tomorrow
- Build/regain muscle memory of how to add energy to the system while controlling the wing, by actually doing it on flat ground in no or light wind (and more than once!). Video review of this practice is invaluable, as it is the best way to convey technique errors to pilots.
Landing
Everything said above about muscle memory, equipment, and complexity on launching should be applied for landing as well. As we advance in our flying experience, the wings we fly typically require more/different skills to control, as we touch down. And that's not the only concern: at this stage of our more advanced development, the landing we make each day occurs after having spent hours in the air, perhaps suffering from dehydration and exhaustion, and going into an LZ we have never even seen, as happens in XC. Spring Training ideas here include:
- Run a club landing clinic that includes:
- Discussion and video review of proper landing techniques including:
- Air speed control on approach, with emphasis on maintaining sufficient air speed for good control, through the likely wind gradient and thermal/mechanical turbulence near the ground, before bleeding off that air speed in ground effect to execute the touch down.
- Body/harness position transition techniques and glider control during approach.
- How to determine whether to run it out or flare the glider; this depends on the weather conditions (i.e., higher wind makes running it out preferable) and LZ characteristics (i.e., terrain obstacles might require a strong flare technique).
- What to do at the last second, if it isn't going well (i.e., let go, ball up and let the glider take it).
- Approach decision-making, including where to more safely land, with regard to obstacles (i.e., cars, tree lines, spectators).
- Repeat actual landing practice, using training hill or tow. Again, video review is the most effective way to convince pilots that perhaps their technique isn't the best and help them accept the critique of their peers on what can be done to improve. In our sport, the most effective way to learn or improve is by the repetition of maneuvers.
Parachutes
At times our wings can no longer be controlled in flight, due to the air we are flying in, equipment damage, or other problems. Although we all fly with parachutes, some accident analyses reveal that we are either reticent about, or not proficient in, deploying them. As our experience and flight time grows, we naturally lose the edge and the hyper-vigilance we once had. We tend toward believing this is either "not really happening to me" or "I can handle this." The reality is that sometimes we can't handle it. Be aware that the window in which the option to save ourselves with a parachute ride is very narrow. The fact that this window gets narrower with decreasing altitude above the ground (AGL) should always be kept in mind. Be proficient and ready to throw the chute at any time and, if you are low, make that decision sooner rather than later. Consider:
- Having a club Annual Parachute Clinic that includes:
- Repacking chutes
- Hanging pilots in their harness' to simulate the violence and disorientation that likely occurs in a loss of flight control, and then practice deploying their parachute, with a goal of less than 3 seconds from decision to having it out.
- Discussions on when to throw and how quickly that action needs to be accomplished in various circumstances
Towing
As a pilot and instructor who has done all sorts of towing, including designing, building and operating my own system (with the scars to prove it), please let me be very clear: towing a wing aloft is not simple. It is a complex operation that deserves our highest levels of respect, skepticism, training and continuing education. Towing can and has been done with very effective risk management, but each system is different and has its own unique characteristics of a host of variables that need to be fully understood and managed properly. One of the significant variables to be considered is pilot experience and skill, as this is a determining factor in the pilot's ability to correctly respond to the complex factors in towing and, hence, how the tow should best be conducted. Suggestions for training and education include:
- Refresh yourself on tow force effects on a glider:
- Wing loading, climb rates, air speeds and attitude to horizon are all continuously affected as a coupled system during each tow based on the force applied by the tow rope
- Effects of immediate loss / removal of tow forces (i.e., weak link break or throttle off) at various points during a typical flight, with emphasis on the required pilot actions to reestablish controllable flight and land safely.
- Discuss the topic of bridle types and attachment points with other experienced pilots and how they affect a glider in flight (i.e., on-tow trim speed versus off-tow trim speed).
- Tow operator actions and expectations:
- Planning for the ability to see the pilot effectively during the whole flight.
- Appropriate regulation of tow forces during each stage of the flight (i.e., launch, climb, release) as appropriate for pilot skill level.
- Failure of tow system scenarios (i.e., failures of the release, drum/line, weak link, etc.) during each stage of the flight.
- Consideration of the creation and use of checklists for specific equipment and each of the personnel involved in the tow operation.
- Procedures to assess and monitor equipment condition and equipment maintenance.
Risk Management and Altitude
The analyses of many of our fatalities indicate that some of the pilots experienced glider control problems that they could not effectively deal with from a relatively low altitude before the fatal impacts. Although specifics of the issues vary among the flights (i.e. tumble/turbulence, equipment failure) there were decision-making opportunities earlier in, or before, the flights for risk management that might have mitigated or prevented the accidents. This Spring Training opportunity is best done in a club seminar where topics might include:
- Weather analysis and predictions:
- Wind velocity, direction, and trends for the day.
- Thermal strength and shear potential (tumble/collapse risk assessment).
- Overdevelopment potential.
- Site-specific scenarios of good places and bad places to be, given the weather conditions of the day.
- Site and common XC route analyses:
- Where and when to go and where and when not to go.
- Where and when not to get low.
- Have your own "Safe Operating Envelope" for the day (i.e., I won't go lower than this before I head out to get more AGL or land).
- Camera use and its effect on concentration. Be alert to the danger of distraction and the acceptance of higher risk for "The Shot."
- Risk management of the next generation of our pilots--our students. This important topic should acknowledge the fact that as we learn, we do not have the muscle memory or cognitive skills to react properly in new situations. This requires carefully considering all aspects of student flights, with respect to what they have previously demonstrated and what might be required to do in each of their progressive flights.
Complacency and Denial
If I had to pick just one factor that was most common in our accidents/incidents, I would choose Complacency. Complacency occurs when a pilot's hyper-vigilant, reflexive stance is replaced with the misguided confidence that "I can handle this," based on the repetition of flight circumstances where the pilot did handle it--or perhaps, "got away with it." Complacency is a companion to Denial, such as "This isn't happening / can't happen to me." Both of these mindsets are understandable in an aging pilot population who have completed decades of flying, and perhaps these attitudes are inadvertently instilled in newer pilots by being around experienced ones.
Based on the analyses of our recent fatalities, complacency and denial affects (1) the amount of risk that pilots are willing to accept in the weather/turbulence/altitude in which they choose to fly; (2) an accurate assessment of what is required of their launch technique for the conditions; or (3) the decision to immediately throw a chute when they lose control of their wing.
The longer we fly, the more likely complacency tends to erode the margin required to deal with the almost inevitable circumstance where only decisive, immediate, and efficiently executed action leads to survival. Before each and every flight, remind yourself that flying has inherent risk and ask yourself and your buddies whether you are satisfied with what you have done to minimize the risk so this flight will not be your last. The Spring Training suggestion for this area is to re-read and share the above thoughts and know that it can indeed happen to you!
I look forward to flying with you all for decades to come,
Mitch Shipley
USHPA Accident Reporting Committee Co-Chair (Hang Gliding)
http://www.ushpa.org/page/2016-spring-training
Spring Training
Well, the first thing you wanna do is get your Accident Review Committee Chairman on a plane to Vegas so he can consolidate control of all the witnesses and evidence and make sure the public understands what's TYPICAL in our sport.Spring Training
2016/03/22
As the spring flying season approaches, your Accident Review Committee wants to make sure each of our pilots has our latest lessons learned and the suggested risk mitigation training ideas.
The April Fools edition. How appropriate.The following is the text of an article printed in the March/April 2016 issue of Hang Gliding & Paragliding magazine.
You getting all this, Ken Muscio and Tomas Banevicius?Spring Training
Yeah. Our SPORT of hang gliding and paragliding.2015 was the deadliest year that our sport of hang gliding and paragliding has seen in decades.
Everybody remember THIS:Ten of our members died in hang gliding accidents and another ten members died in paragliding accidents.
Sounds RISKY!2016 has already brought another two hang gliding fatalities.
Should I consult with my physician if my erection lasts more than four hours?Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...sell as many tandem thrill rides as humanly possible.In pursuit of USHPA's mission--to...
Better pursue it a lot faster. I don't think you're going at a third of the speed I see it slipping away....ensure the future of free flight-
Infallible Weak Links, Reliable Releases, Birrenators, hang checks, backup loops, locking carabiners, FUCOSED PILOT wristbands...-USHPA provides tools for pilots to assist them...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736...in assessing the dangers involved in the sport to help mitigate those dangers to a level of risk deemed acceptable to the individual pilot.
Suck my dick, Mitch.Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
See above.One of those tools is the information provided by the Accident Reporting Committee (ARC).
...Tim Herr suppress any and all shreds of crash data he thinks might cast u$hPa and/or any of its members in any less than stellar light.Its mission is to help...
And you can see what a great job its been doing just by looking at 2015 - the deadliest year that our sport of hang gliding and paragliding has seen in decades....pilots derive lessons learned from the analyses of accidents that will help them more accurately assess the risks involved in their flights and avoid similar fates.
...ceased publishing even its totally useless two sentence bullshit excuses for fatality reports. The last one:In August 2015 the ARC...
Wasn't that enlightening, people of varying ages?Craig Pirazzi - 2015/08/24
Craig Pirazzi (56), an Advanced (H4) pilot and USHPA member since 1986, suffered fatal injuries during a flight at Indian Creek near Moab, UT. The circumstances surrounding the incident are currently still under investigation.
Good thing you motherfuckers notified all pilots of that troubling trend......notified all pilots of the troubling trend in fatalities during the period from January 2014 through August 2015.
We wouldn't have had a fuckin' clue things were going south otherwise.Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 17:42:41 UTC
This is not going to end well for us...
1. Have I had a hang check?That notice recommended that pilots consider three factors when making their personal flying decisions:
(1) Always use the safest weak link possible; (2) Don't ever assume that somebody hasn't snuck a Tad-O-Link on your bridle when you weren't looking; and (3) Stay upright with your hands on the control tubes five seconds after launch and get upright with your hands on the control tubes no later than your turn onto final at two hundred feet so you'll have better roll authority and won't hit headfirst when you crash.(1) Personal Risk Management; (2) Complacency; and (3) Encountering Turbulence at Low Altitudes.
...and sending even more notifications of the troubling trend in fatalities to get EVEN BETTER results!Since that notification in August, six more of our members have died while flying, which underscores the necessity of continuing our efforts...
Primary cause of death: suffering of fatal injuries. Avoid suffering fatal injuries and there's virtually no chance you'll have a fatal accident....to learn from these occurrences.
...the terms of the u$hPa waiver...As Pilots, we celebrate the fact that, under...
...anything bad that happens to us is solely our own fault - never a consequence of shit instruction, being forced to use shit equipment, the u$hPa certified dickhead on the other end of the rope accelerating us into a lockout and/or dumping us into an unrecoverable inconvenience - and anybody who doesn't agree with that principle doesn't need to be involved in our sport. Even/Especially as a non u$hPa member 'cause it's OUR sport - not THEIRS.Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC
Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
Extraordinarily free of......FAA Part 103, we are relatively free of governmental regulation of our flying.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
... governmental regulation. Fuckin' GOVERNMENT! Always trying to regulate our flying. Telling us what we can and can't do. I DESPISE those ASSHOLES!!!Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
Brian... yep... the issue of the tug's link is a big one and you've summed it up nicely.
The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.
Here's the other thing missing from this conversation, and it's not a quick soundbite one.
There is more to the bar than simply strength.
See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record. It's a high bar and you can't improve one aspect at the expense of an other. (you don't get to lower my safety margins for any reason)
The first one we've finally covered is the tug's link. Here's some others...
Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured. It's a common and standard material. You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is. This seems trivial, but it's again one of those things that looks small, but isn't.
Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.
I know when you hook up what you've got. It's assumed that you know what it is, so what? I want to know. Why? Cuz I'm on the other end of the damn rope! You don't get to make decisions about MY safety. You don't get to make decisions about how far I'm taking you into harms way. It's just not your call.
With greenspun, I know what you've got. We don't have to have a conversation about if I'm willing to tow you or not. If you roll up with something else, that conversation happens. I might decide that I'm willing to tow you, but that conversation happens. You are not the only one involved here.
So if you want to use something that "scales with weight", you need to find a common and quality controlled manufactured material that displays what it is.
Why?
You're asking a tow pilot to pull you.
You're asking someone else to join you in a dangerous environment.
You don't get to make decisions for me.
Suck my dick, Mitch.Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
...we can do whatever Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney permits us to.We enjoy this freedom of flight because...
As defined by Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney....under the national standard of care established by the FAA, "The operators [of hang gliders and paragliders] are responsible for assessing the risks involved and assuring their own personal safety."
While the person on the other end of the rope to whom we're paying twenty-five bucks to safely get us through the Turbulence we Encounter at Low Altitudes and the Turbulence we Encounter the rest of the fuckin' way up to 2500 feet has NO responsibility whatsoever for our own safety. If he gets us up to where we have a shot at hooking a thermal he's an awesome tug pilot. If he, his tow mast breakaway or its protector, the Rooney Link he's ordered us to use dump us into a fatal whip inconvenience our instant deaths are solely our personal responsibility and he's an even greater tug pilot for having done everything possible to save us from ourselves.This means that when we elect to fly a hang glider or paraglider, each of us is responsible to assess the dangers involved and each of us, by law, assumes personal responsibility for his/her own safety.
The FAA has advised us that the actions of the hang gliding and paragliding community affect the direction the FAA will take in implementing future regulations and that the safety record of ultralight vehicles is the foremost factor in determining the need for further regulations.
Oh good. You're gonna ask u$hPa members to THINK.In light of these facts, USHPA encourages and challenges each and every one of our member pilots and chapters to consider the following specific ideas on what each pilot and chapter might do, before the spring flying season, to decrease the inherent risk of accidents in our sport.
Can't wait to see how that turns out.Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 17:42:41 UTC
This is not going to end well for us...
So name one lesson learned from an accident report between 1994 and 2016 that Doug Hildreth wasn't screaming to deaf ears between 1980 and 1994.Each suggestion is derived from lessons learned from our accident reports, most significantly from the investigation of fatal accidents.
Let's call it yet another load of the vacuous u$hPa bullshit we've all been hearing since the beginning of time.Let's call this "Spring Training."
Any chance we could have a "Safety Stand-Down" in the MIDDLE of the next dozen victim killing spree instead of waiting all the way to the end?The intent is similar to the "Safety Stand-Downs" many professional organizations conduct following significant accident trends.
As long as they're all gonna be totally substanceless what possible difference could it make?Please note that some suggestions are wing-specific, while others are applicable to all flying.
Spring Training
2016/03/22
Launching
Each of our flights starts with launching. During this phase of flight, the goal is to transition from not-flying, to flying, in such a way that control of the wing is maintained, ensuring a safe transition. This transition requires adding energy into the flying system. The methods and skill sets required differ, depending on the type of launch, and are executed by using the muscle memory that we each developed through repetition, as we were learned to fly.
After completing that early training and increasing our experience, we typically try to do one launch a day and stay up, soaring for as long as possible after that launch. Over the years (and perhaps decades), these launches are executed with more advanced equipment that is typically harder to launch (i.e., heavier and having higher stall speeds, more complex control input, harness' that are harder to run with, etc.). As we repeat these launches that have been executed by the muscle memory developed using our novice equipment, we can deduce why we see poor launches that are far too common even among our advanced pilots. So we have devised some Spring Training suggestions:
- Review Cliff Launch (CL) and Flat Slope Launch (FSL) techniques. They call for different requirements and actions on how to add flying energy to the system to get the wing flying, including:
- Controlling the Angle Of Attack (AOA) during the walk, jog, and run that builds up flying air speed during a FSL, before attempting to have the wing support the full weight of the flying system.
- Maintaining a low AOA after your feet leave the ground during a CL that allows the air speed to build up to a fast enough flying speed to support the full wing loading of the pilot when leaving the ground.
- Conduct discussions on:
- The importance of wire crew / launch assistant choices (i.e., experienced pilots) and briefings that include precisely what communications and actions are expected.
- Evaluation of wind, thermal cycle, and turbulence before launching.
- The fact that it is always OK to back off launch and re-group, or "bag it," if things aren't feeling right. The mountain will be there tomorrow
- Build/regain muscle memory of how to add energy to the system while controlling the wing, by actually doing it on flat ground in no or light wind (and more than once!). Video review of this practice is invaluable, as it is the best way to convey technique errors to pilots.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Launching
Each of our flights starts with launching.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Well maybe for free flying. But for towing...During this phase of flight, the goal is to transition from not-flying, to flying, in such a way that control of the wing is maintained, ensuring a safe transition. This transition requires adding energy into the flying system.
...adding energy into the flying system just makes it more dangerous - EXPONENTIALLY - to the pilots on BOTH ends of the string. The good news is...Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...that there's a pretty safe limit on what you can do anyway. Looooong track record.Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
In our forced upright training harnesses which prevented us from ever getting any speed for accelerating away from launch and punching down into ground effect for landing.The methods and skill sets required differ, depending on the type of launch, and are executed by using the muscle memory that we each developed through repetition, as we were learned to fly.
Hazing.After completing that early training...
Attempting to unlearn all the total crap we've been taught by total fucking assholes like Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight....and increasing our experience...
You mean like in dolly and platform launch towing in which blown launches are virtually nonexistent?...we typically try to do one launch a day and stay up, soaring for as long as possible after that launch.
Curse all that deadly complexity.Over the years (and perhaps decades), these launches are executed with more advanced equipment that is typically harder to launch (i.e., heavier and having higher stall speeds...
Yes. Shifting your weight to the left on a T2C is so much more COMPLEX than shifting your weight to the left on a Condor....more complex control input...
That ain't the plural of harness - assholes. That ain't even the possessive....harness'...
Bullshit....that are harder to run with...
Spend more good soaring days on the training hill to practice your launches and perfect your flare timing....etc.). As we repeat these launches that have been executed by the muscle memory developed using our novice equipment, we can deduce why we see poor launches that are far too common even among our advanced pilots. So we have devised some Spring Training suggestions:
Running fast and (where applicable) falling off the cliff?- Review Cliff Launch (CL) and Flat Slope Launch (FSL) techniques. They call for different requirements and actions on how to add flying energy to the system to get the wing flying, including:
Assuming you're hooked in at this point...- Controlling the Angle Of Attack (AOA) during the walk, jog, and run that builds up flying air speed during a FSL, before attempting to have the wing support the full weight of the flying system.
One word. You'd have thunk u$hPa top brass would've figured that out by now.- Maintaining a low AOA after your feet leave the ground during a CL that allows the air speed...
6-311...to build up to a fast enough flying speed to support the full wing loading of the pilot when leaving the ground.
Yeah, let's have everybody have his own individual communications preferences. "Clear!" never quite did it for me.- Conduct discussions on:
- The importance of wire crew / launch assistant choices (i.e., experienced pilots) and briefings that include precisely what communications and actions are expected.
Not for a dozen US guys from the past year I can name you.- Evaluation of wind, thermal cycle, and turbulence before launching.
- The fact that it is always OK to back off launch and re-group, or "bag it," if things aren't feeling right. The mountain will be there tomorrow
And we haven't had an unhooked launch fatality in the US since 2008/08/30 - just lots of expensive and painful incidents. So let's wait until we have another kill before we emphasize the importance of the hang check.- Build/regain muscle memory of how to add energy to the system while controlling the wing, by actually doing it on flat ground in no or light wind (and more than once!). Video review of this practice is invaluable, as it is the best way to convey technique errors to pilots.
2015/11/08 - Karen CarraCraig Pirazzi - Telluride / Paradox, Colorado - 43151 - H4 - 1989/03/27 - Luigi Chiarani - AT PL ST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Craig wasn't even an actual launch incident. He got killed as a consequence of attempting to ground handle his glider - hooked in and unassisted - through a rotor well behind launch. So what do we see addressing that one?Karen Carra - Takoma Park, Maryland - 61868 - Exp: 2016/06/30
- H3 - 1998/07/22 - Judy McCarty - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- P2 - 2002/06/12 - Scotty Marion - FL FSL RS
